Can you imagine a worse reason to start a civil war?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

nailed it.

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I know...right?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

nailed it. they say he’s threatening our democracy? it’s the democrats who use superdelegates in their primaries to ignore the will of the voters, its the democrats who are explicitly threatening to restructure the supreme court unless they rule in a way liberals find more agreeable ( so much for separation of powers), its the democrats who dedicated themselves to reversing the 2016 election from the moment that disgusting witch conceded, it’s democrats who constantly silence conservatives for having the temerity to attempt to speak.
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Don't forget eliminate the electoral college and allow minors and illegal immigrants to vote
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Don't forget eliminate the electoral college and allow minors and illegal immigrants to vote
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and criminals

[Pete F.]

Text messages between US diplomats and a senior Ukrainian aide released by the House Intelligence Committee show how a potential Ukrainian investigation into the 2016 election was linked to a desired meeting between Ukrainian President and President Trump
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[Pete F.]

Remember when private text messages between two FBI employees, publicly released devoid of context, became a full-blown scandal? Will be interesting to see if their partisan critics now call for nuance and context in interpreting the newly-released Ukraine scandal texts.
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[Sea Dangles]

Nothing burger
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[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by detbuch

You seem to be under the impression that you've said something of substance here. Your opinion about what Trump thinks or knows or is remotely aware of has no substantial importance in this matter. All you've done here is evade the fact that what Trump requested was absolutely legitimate, and replaced that legitimacy with your sarcastic and uninformed opinion. And that is all you could do, in order to maintain some fictitious level of credibility for your previous ignorant comments and opinions.

You not only proclaim that Trump is totally clueless, but must think that the Secretary of State, Trump's lawyers, the State Dept., all Trump advisors, are also clueless. It is their business to know something as basic as to what is legal to do when asking for foreign assistance on ANY matter. These treaties are not some dusty old files hidden in some remote never looked at file. They are paid attention to on a continuing basis when any political or legal matter between countries must be addressed.

When the media sources that you, or the public in general, doesn't tell you what you don't know, you inherently assume there is nothing to know. However, those who expand the variety of media sources are more likely to be informed about things than those who are stuck on their one-sided sources which would rather you didn't know everything you need to know to fully understand an issue. This issue of treaties that allow what Trump asked is probably not discussed by the sources that you get your info from because they would rather that you didn't know and so keep you stuck on the notion that it is illegal or unconstitutional to ask foreign powers to "dig up dirt" on their opponents. That is the preferred level of discussion that gives some appearance of a reason for impeachment.

However, other more honest media have informed those of us who listen to them about the treaties and a great deal of other things that cast a whole different light on the issue.

So it is not that Trump is clueless. It is that you are. Not through any fault of your own, except that your sources are not helping you out.

Your claim that Trump "doesn’t listen to a single advisor who might know" is unsubstantiated nonsense. He has always surrounded himself with "experts" even in his business ventures. He sometimes disagrees with some of them, but he hears them all out. Other sources would have helped you to know some things about Trump that you don't, but your sources would rather that you believe he is all the various boogymen that they've planted in your head.

Your claim it’s a “fact” his request was legal and legit I believe is as wrong as you and the GOP spinning this as a nothing burger. The man has proven he has no issues past, present or future in enlisting foreign powers to interfere in our democracy and elections for personal gain. The “fact” is that is exactly why the founding fathers gave congress a means to remove a president who is abusing his power.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Don't forget eliminate the electoral college and allow minors and illegal immigrants to vote
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Right! Do away with the electoral college as well.

Anything that doesn't guarantee liberal victory, can be jettisoned.

But Trump is an existential threat to our democracy.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Text messages between US diplomats and a senior Ukrainian aide released by the House Intelligence Committee show how a potential Ukrainian investigation into the 2016 election was linked to a desired meeting between Ukrainian President and President Trump
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You lost a lot of credibility when posting what Taylor said, but not the rebuttal.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Your claim it’s a “fact” his request was legal and legit I believe is as wrong as you and the GOP spinning this as a nothing burger. The man has proven he has no issues past, present or future in enlisting foreign powers to interfere in our democracy and elections for personal gain. The “fact” is that is exactly why the founding fathers gave congress a means to remove a president who is abusing his power.
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No one has to prove Trumps request was legal. The democrats have to prove it wasn't legal.

"The man has proven he has no issues past, present or future in enlisting foreign powers to interfere in our democracy and elections for personal gain"

I agree he's done that. My question is, when did that become unethical? Hilary wasn't using her office to get donations to her foundation? Obama didn't do that when he asked the Russians to postpone missile talks (talk about national security!) until after his re election? The Senate democrats didn't do that when they asked Ukraine to investigate Manafort and Trump?

Or can you just say out loud what we all know, that's it's only unethical when Trump does it?

I don't think what Trump did was "nothing". But I think it was nothing much more, than what they all do. Once again, we're going to hold him to a different standard, because he's the most vulgar person by far to ever hold that office.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

he's the most vulgar person by far to ever hold that office.

I don't know...I heard LBJ was pretty bad

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

I don't know...I heard LBJ was pretty bad

True, but LBJ didn't have Twitter so it wasn't common knowledge.

The democrats liked his vulgarity when they assumed it would ensure a Hilary victory.

Suck it up and win the next election. Don't undermine the democracy just because they had no one at all, waiting to take over for Hilary as the viable candidate. God almighty what a freak show. I don't think Warren has a prayer. but I also didn't think Trump had a prayer, so what do I know...

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

We're going to hold him to a different standard, because he's the most vulgar person by far to ever hold that office.

We can agree on that one, but Obama delaying talks due to it being more productive for both parties after an election, is a far cry from Trump asking for help getting elected; which by the way is illegal. If Hilary won and was pulling this same crap, I'd back the republicans going after her for betraying her oath of office as well. The president CAN NOT seek foreign help to interfer or benefit, what is it about that which is not crystal clear to the GOP. I suspect while they remain silent, with only a few stating this is troubling, behind closed doors they are very concerned.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

We The president CAN NOT seek foreign help to interfer or benefit, what is it about that which is not crystal clear to the GOP. I suspect while they remain silent, with only a few stating this is troubling, behind closed doors they are very concerned.

(1) show me where it says that a POTUS can't ask a foreign power for any favor or assistance which might benefit him politically.

(2) is the senate allowed to do that? Because 3 senate democrats asked Ukraine to investigate Manafort and Trump. Why was that OK?

What if Trump honestly, genuinely feels Biden did something seriously wrong in Ukraine? He can't ask them to investigate, because Biden is a political adversary? So anyone who is running against a sitting POTUS, has blanket immunity in other countries to do whatever they want?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Obama delaying talks due to it being more productive for both parties after an election, is a far cry from Trump asking for help getting elected; .

If you listen to what Obama said, it's reasonable to infer that he was worried that what he and the Russians had in mind, might have hurt his chances of getting re elected, so he asked them to wait until after his last election. Because once he was no longer answerable to us, he's have "more flexibility" to go along with what the Russians wanted to do.

It's not exactly the same as what Trump did. But it's not a stretch, to say that Obama asked a foreign power to delay missile talks because it would help him get elected.

You really think they don't all do this? As Detbuch said, if Trump gets a great trade deal with China, that will help him get re elected. So is he not allowed to pursue that?

I don't think that investigating Biden, when there's that much evidence of corruption, is "interfering" with the election. Knowing more facts about what took place, improves our ability to make an informed vote, it doesn't interfere with it.

[Got Stripers]

How about it’s a federal crime to seek and accept foreign help?
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

How about it’s a federal crime to seek and accept foreign help?
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I see.

So when the Hilary campaign paid big money for Brits and Russians to make up dirt about Carter Page, and then the Obama Justice Department specifically used that crap to invade his privacy, that was......???

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I see.

So when the Hilary campaign paid big money for Brits and Russians to make up dirt about Carter Page, and then the Obama Justice Department specifically used that crap to invade his privacy, that was......???

Whataboutism again, come on your party had it's chance and if there was a similar wrong doing, well again; to bad you guys dropped the ball. NOTHING any past president or candidate compares to the lengths this clown will go to gain personal wealth or an advantage in the upcoming election, you know that to be true.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Whataboutism again, come on your party had it's chance and if there was a similar wrong doing, well again; to bad you guys dropped the ball. NOTHING any past president or candidate compares to the lengths this clown will go to gain personal wealth or an advantage in the upcoming election, you know that to be true.

GS:!its a crime to ask foreigners for help and receive it

Jim: what about when hilary and obama did it?

GS: that’s whataboutism.

so i can never challenge your notion that trump committed a crime, by pointing to others who got away with similar actions?

interesting way to avoid having to defend yourself.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Whataboutism again, come on your party had it's chance and if there was a similar wrong doing, well again; to bad you guys dropped the ball. NOTHING any past president or candidate compares to the lengths this clown will go to gain personal wealth or an advantage in the upcoming election, you know that to be true.

you’re also saying that the issue is t that trump does these things, but that he does them more often than his predecessors.

where is it written that there’s a maximum number? what’s that number?

and we didn’t miss our chance with what they did to carter page, maybe you haven’t heard, but a us attorney is almost done looking into it.
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[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

GS:!its a crime to ask foreigners for help and receive it

Jim: what about when hilary and obama did it?

GS: that’s whataboutism.

so i can never challenge your notion that trump committed a crime, by pointing to others who got away with similar actions?

interesting way to avoid having to defend yourself.
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When you run out of lies you claim Whataboutism.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I don't think that investigating Biden, when there's that much evidence of corruption, is "interfering" with the election. Knowing more facts about what took place, improves our ability to make an informed vote, it doesn't interfere with it.

Show us the evidence Jim.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

When you run out of lies you claim Whataboutism.
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right. it’s literally saying, you got me, and i don’t want to discuss this
anymore.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Show us the evidence Jim.

hunter got filthy rich at a job he had zero qualifications for, except that his daddy was (1) the VP, (2) the US point person for the same country that employed Hunter ( what a coincidence), and (3) daddy helped fire a prosecutor that might have been looking at this company, (4) it’s reported that john
kerry’s stepson ended his investment partnership with hunter, because he wasn’t comfortable with what hunter was doing in ukraine.

ever heard of circumstantial evidence? sure you have, but only when it applies to republicans.
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[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I see.

So when the Hilary campaign paid big money for Brits and Russians to make up dirt about Carter Page, and then the Obama Justice Department specifically used that crap to invade his privacy, that was......???

the Republicans originally started it — dirt on Donald Trump, those are the facts.

you push so much fake information. And deny transcripts written words and audio . But repeat over and over false claims and debunked stories its astonishing.. for you truth isn't truth.. Truth its just an inconvenience
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

the Republicans originally started it — dirt on Donald Trump, those are the facts.

you push so much fake information. And deny transcripts written words and audio . But repeat over and over false claims and debunked stories its astonishing.. for you truth isn't truth.. Truth its just an inconvenience
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ok you tell me what’s fake here...

team hilary paid brit’s and russians to dig up dirt on carter page.

the obama administrations justice department used that dirt as part of multiple FISA warrants against page.

if it matters, page has never been charged.

you tell us what’s false there.
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Your claim it’s a “fact” his request was legal and legit I believe is as wrong as you and the GOP spinning this as a nothing burger.

The fact is that the chief executive of a country, or his executive branch legal apparatus, such as the DOJ, or personal legal representatives have the right by treaty to ask the chief executive of a foreign country to assist in determining, in an ongoing investigation of corruption, if any illegal or criminal or corrupt acts occurred either by that countries legal apparatus, or by any American citizens in coordination with that country in regard to the investigation. It is a fact that Trump asked for such assistance. Whether he did so in order to interfere with our coming election is the charge in dispute. That charge is an assumption not a fact. It would have to be proved that he made the request for the specific intention to sway the election, and to disprove that the request was for assistance in an ongoing investigation. That would be very difficult to prove beyond speculation.

The only fact at this point is that he made the request as the Chief executive officer, and it was perfectly, as such, legal for him to do so.

The man has proven he has no issues past, present or future in enlisting foreign powers to interfere in our democracy and elections for personal gain.

Actually, that was not proven by the Mueller investigation, your opinion notwithstanding.

The “fact” is that is exactly why the founding fathers gave congress a means to remove a president who is abusing his power.

Yes, and it is a fact that Congress can abuse that means. It all finally comes down not necessarily to the merits or facts of the case, but to the number of votes.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

The “fact” is that is exactly why the founding fathers gave congress a means to remove a president who is abusing his power.

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yeah, I don't think they could have possibly anticipated the lunatics currently on the democrat side of congress wielding such means

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

ok you tell me what’s fake here...

team hilary paid brit’s and russians to dig up dirt on carter page.

the obama administrations justice department used that dirt as part of multiple FISA warrants against page.

if it matters, page has never been charged.

you tell us what’s false there.
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You actually believe all thoses investigation were based on manufactured information.. of course you do.. again with zero evidence to support your claim.. shocking .. yet here we have Trumps transcript and him asking the Chinese for help.. and you bring up carter page.. who was just investigated ... no jail no false imprisonment thats how investigations work..

TRUMP claims he has the right as potus to look into corruption and ask other country's to help.. thats rich seeing he only cared after he got caught and Biden poll numbers...

Defense contractors ask why their contracts wernt being paid. Congress we didnt stop anything... the white house stopped them secretly ... why would they do that?? But we know why.. some of use refuse to connect the dots
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[wdmso]

The exchanges show a senior diplomat saying it would be "crazy" to withhold military aid to Ukraine for Mr Trump's political gain in the 2020 election.

US law bans soliciting foreign help for electoral purposes. Must just be another liberal plant out to delegitimize the election
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