Dr Carson endorsed TRUMP?

[Jim in CT]

I didn't think anything could shock me anymore, I was wrong. I would have been less shocked if Carson endorsed Bernie Sanders, and I mean that. I cannot fathom what's going on...

Am I literally in the Twilight Zone?

[Nebe]

This is the man who believes that Egyptian pyramids were not build as tombs for pharoes but instead were built to house grains because somewhere in the bible it said something that aligned with this theory.... And you are surprised by his judgement just now?
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[PaulS]

A soft spoken gentleman endorsing such a big mouth bully is shocking.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

A soft spoken gentleman endorsing such a big mouth bully is shocking.

You said it well. Makes me wonder if anyone actually has any principles, or if every single one of them, with zero exceptions, cares about nothing but their own ambition.

[Nebe]

He wants to be vp or sit on the cabinet,etc. Same goes with Christy.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I didn't think anything could shock me anymore, I was wrong. I would have been less shocked if Carson endorsed Bernie Sanders, and I mean that. I cannot fathom what's going on...

Am I literally in the Twilight Zone?

The entire Trump campaign is in the Twilight Zone. And you feared Obama

[buckman]

Winning
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

The entire Trump campaign is in the Twilight Zone. And you feared Obama

I did fear Obama, and as it turned out, with good reason. Ask anyone who lived in a stable Iraq on the day he took office.

I agree on the Trump campaign, it's a farce. I cannot believe that of all people, Ben Carsomn hitched his wagon to Trump's star. I really can't believe it.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I did fear Obama, and as it turned out, with good reason. Ask anyone who lived in a stable Iraq on the day he took office.

I agree on the Trump campaign, it's a farce. I cannot believe that of all people, Ben Carsomn hitched his wagon to Trump's star. I really can't believe it.

Talk to anyone in Iraq before Bush took office
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[Nebe]

Oh wait. You can't... A Million plus of them are dead.
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[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Talk to anyone in Iraq before Bush took office
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Yeah Nebe, cuz it was like a country club. Right?
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Talk to anyone in Iraq before Bush took office
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I have spoken to many. Many, many, many.

On Bush's first day, the average Iraqi was ruled by a brutal dictator, who used chemical weaponds against the people he was supposed to be serving. On the day Bush left, Iraq was stable, and had held open, free elctions, where the radical Islamic candidates consistently lost their elections. It took a lot to get there, and one can argue it wasn't worth it. But the nation of Iraq (as a whole) was a better place in 2008 than it was in 2001. If you disagree, I'd be curious to know, based on what you disagree?

Obama inherited a stable Iraq. It's a fact. He chose not to get a SOF agreement, so he pulled everyone out (against the advice of many), and that was a disaster. I don't know anyone who disagrees that Obama's handling of the Middle East, and Iraq in particular, has been a disaster (other than Spence, naturally).

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Yeah Nebe, cuz it was like a country club. Right?
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Sure, it was all milk & cookies.

[Nebe]

We can agree to disagree that the Iraq war was a mistake or not and based on a heap of bogus intel.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Obama inherited a stable Iraq. It's a fact. He chose not to get a SOF agreement, so he pulled everyone out (against the advice of many), and that was a disaster. I don't know anyone who disagrees that Obama's handling of the Middle East, and Iraq in particular, has been a disaster (other than Spence, naturally).

He inherited the illusion of a stable Iraq, an illusion set by the de-bathification strategy set by Bush.

I think the hard part is that Obama for good or bad has really inherited several global mega-trends that are nearly impossible to control. We can influence and shape but they have to play out on their own.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

I think the hard part is that Obama for good or bad has really inherited several global mega-trends that are nearly impossible to control.

[Slipknot]

The American people elected an illusion of a president

[Slipknot]

and RE_ELECTED him

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

He inherited the illusion of a stable Iraq, an illusion set by the de-bathification strategy set by Bush.

The stability was not an illusion. It was understood that underlying problems existed such as those caused by the de-baathification overkill and the desire of the Shia to replace or eliminate Sunni power over Iraq and Kurdish suspicion and desires to be free of dominance by either. And that it would take time, perhaps a generation or more to acculturate Iraqis to a more cooperative, democratic, society. And it was understood, at least by the military, that it was too soon to pull out our troops. The surface peace needed to be kept until old grievances could be forgotten and new ways of living together could be accepted.

Whether or not we should have invaded Iraq, pulling out too soon made all our sacrifices meaningless, worthless, and invited the return of chaos not only to Iraq, but to the Middle East.

I think the hard part is that Obama for good or bad has really inherited several global mega-trends that are nearly impossible to control. We can influence and shape but they have to play out on their own.

Gosh, I thought he was the President of the U.S., not the world. He actually inherited all that global mega-trend stuff? Well there is still hope that Obama can stave off and reverse the global mega-trends since they are not totally impossible to control. Just, as you say, nearly so.

On the other hand, if they have to play out on their own, then he really didn't inherit them. I mean you don't inherit something if you don't own it.

But, if he actually did inherit them, and can't control them, maybe he's just not up to the job.

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Nebe

We can agree to disagree that the Iraq war was a mistake or not and based on a heap of bogus intel.
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That was not the statement I responded to and you are the one who changed the dialogue. Your contention seemed to imply the Iraqi citizens were happier under Saddams rule than they were after the regime change.
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[Nebe]

I can't speak for the Iraqi people but when a million people die, how can you be happy?
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[Sea Dangles]

Personally speaking, I would rather die at the hand of an intruder. To be targeted by my own government would be demoralizing to say the least. To each his own.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

The stability was not an illusion. It was understood that underlying problems existed such as those caused by the de-baathification overkill and the desire of the Shia to replace or eliminate Sunni power over Iraq and Kurdish suspicion and desires to be free of dominance by either. And that it would take time, perhaps a generation or more to acculturate Iraqis to a more cooperative, democratic, society. And it was understood, at least by the military, that it was too soon to pull out our troops. The surface peace needed to be kept until old grievances could be forgotten and new ways of living together could be accepted.

I see, so to nurture a fledgling democracy we should have overruled an Iraqi government that refused a US troop presence without immunity for a generation long occupation.

I'm sure that would have gone over well. There's nothing as soothing as a foreign troop presence to quell centuries old political and sectarian strife.

Gosh, I thought he was the President of the U.S., not the world. He actually inherited all that global mega-trend stuff? Well there is still hope that Obama can stave off and reverse the global mega-trends since they are not totally impossible to control. Just, as you say, nearly so.

Like I said, the president can influence but not totally control.

[wdmso]

Why do people keep using Iraq as an example of anything good or bad
they are an independent county.. I was there bagdad and Anbar was never stable it was managed chaos All we where was pest control .. and that was 10 years ago Afghanistan is no different .. they have time on their sides because they know America can't stay forever .. no mater how much some here think we should

But our Government will keep exaggerating the threat ISIS or any other group.. hold it against us.. crying the sky is falling !! striking Fear in the our un educated population when it comes to how things operate outside our borders

so they can keep pumping billions into arm's manufacturer pass laws like the Patriot Act all in the Name of keeping America Safe

Nationalism is what I feel Trump is Selling and his supporters are getting it confused with patriotism


from the Washington post letter to the editor

George F. Will’s statement [“Ukraine: A crisis that matters,” op-ed, Feb. 20] that “nationalism is a necessary, although insufficient impulse sustaining liberty” needs clarifying. Nationalism must be distinguished from patriotism.

Patriotism is fundamental to liberty because pride in one’s nation-state, and a willingness to defend it if necessary, is the basis of national independence. Patriotism is the courage of national self-determination.

By contrast, nationalism is patriotism transformed into a sentiment of superiority and aggression toward other countries. Nationalism is the poisonous idea that one’s country is superior to somebody else’s. Nationalism is intrinsically a cause of war and imperialism.

In the Ukraine conflict, Russian President Vladimir Putin is a nationalist imperialist and the Kiev protesters are patriots.

Ronald Tiersky, Amherst, Mass.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

I see, so to nurture a fledgling democracy we should have overruled an Iraqi government that refused a US troop presence without immunity for a generation long occupation.

The fledgling democracy was quickly becoming undemocratic. And "mega trends," as you put it, were going to keep it heading in that direction. Our presence there is the only realistic thing that could prevent that. So, if you're concerned about maintaining a democracy, especially in its "fledgling" condition, leaving Iraq would not be the way to save it.

On the other hand, if it doesn't concern you whether the democracy survived or not, that is a different story. And I don't have a problem with that. But if that's the case, then don't pretend that you're worried that "overruling" the corrupt Iraqi government would damage the fledgling democratic process.

I'm sure that would have gone over well. There's nothing as soothing as a foreign troop presence to quell centuries old political and sectarian strife.

Actually, whether its "soothing" or not, we have successfully imposed protracted US troop presence to establish democratic processes before, and are still maintaining some of those presences. It actually has worked.

Like I said, the president can influence but not totally control.

Are you referring to the mega trends that he can influence but they have to play out on their own? How would it be playing it out "on their own" if they were influenced. I suppose exiting from a mega trend is a way of influencing it. Strange stuff, these mega trends. But they do come in handy in explaining how something isn't your fault. All Presidents should point to the looming mega trends when they are accused of bad decisions.