A Muslim Iman that I actually like and wish the best. . . but

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

The baker isn’t forcing his views on anyone.

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actually...he has previously turned down requests to create Halloween-themed cakes, lewd bachelor-party cakes, and a cake celebrating a divorce.

soooo....I think he's probably also bracing for law suits from witches and pumpkins, unhappy couples and guys with dirty minds

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

actually...he has previously turned down requests to create Halloween-themed cakes, lewd bachelor-party cakes, and a cake celebrating a divorce.

soooo....I think he's probably also bracing for law suits from witches and pumpkins, unhappy couples and guys with dirty minds

and yet the liberals pat themselves on the back for being so open-minded and tolerant, and they see zero hypocrisy when they attack Christians for having religiously-informed convictions that are different from their own.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

actually...he has previously turned down requests to create Halloween-themed cakes, lewd bachelor-party cakes, and a cake celebrating a divorce.

soooo....I think he's probably also bracing for law suits from witches and pumpkins, unhappy couples and guys with dirty minds

Red herring. See above post. He can't refuse to sell them a cake that he would sell to a straight couple. They never asked him to do that.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Red herring. See above post. He can't refuse to sell them a cake that he would sell to a straight couple. They never asked him to do that.

why would a straight couple want a gay wedding cake?

nothing I've read indicated he straight out refused to sell them a cake...he apparently refused to decorate a cake for celebrating a gay wedding...he's apparently never refused to sell other items in his shop to anyone...just did not want to be contracted to decorate a wedding cake for a gay marriage...nor Halloween-themed cakes, lewd bachelor-party cakes, or a cake celebrating a divorce

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by scottw

why would a straight couple want a gay wedding cake?

nothing I've read indicated he straight out refused to sell them a cake...he apparently refused to decorate a cake for celebrating a gay wedding...he's apparently never refused to sell other items in his shop to anyone...just did not want to be contracted to decorate a wedding cake for a gay marriage...nor Halloween-themed cakes, lewd bachelor-party cakes, or a cake celebrating a divorce

Bingo

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

why would a straight couple want a gay wedding cake?

They wanted a cake. They didn't say they wanted a "gay" cake. They didn't say they wanted it to be rainbow colored or say gay people are the best or have two men holding hands on it. He could reject that.

He cannot, based on the law, reject to make them a white cake with blue flowers or whatever because it would be eaten at a wedding for people of the same sex. If he would make a white cake with blue flowers for a wedding of straight people, it is discrimination to not make it for any group of gay people, black people, Mormons, Mennonites, Catholics, etc.

[spence]

Originally Posted by zimmy

He cannot, based on the law, reject to make them a white cake with blue flowers or whatever because it would be eaten at a wedding for people of the same sex. If he would make a white cake with blue flowers for a wedding of straight people, it is discrimination to not make it for any group of gay people, black people, Mormons, Mennonites, Catholics, etc.

I wonder if he realized that gay couples already eat his cakes all the time at weddings. I also wonder how many cakes he's made for same sex weddings that were brokered by wedding planners and he had no idea.

He seems personally concerned as to how his talents are used, which I would assume to mean he puts love into his cakes to celebrate the love of a union.

Perhaps he should focus less on the sex and more on the love.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I wonder

Perhaps he should focus less on the sex and more on the love.

Perhaps you should read the first amendment. It doesn’t say that freedom of religion only applies to people who, according to you, are sufficiently focused on love.

I am in favor of gay marriage. I’m also in favor of upholding the constitution. It’s not mutually exclusive.

Maybe the gay couple could practice the tolerance they expect from others, and use another baker.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

They wanted a cake. They didn't say they wanted a "gay" cake. They didn't say they wanted it to be rainbow colored or say gay people are the best or have two men holding hands on it. He could reject that.

He cannot, based on the law, reject to make them a white cake with blue flowers or whatever because it would be eaten at a wedding for people of the same sex. If he would make a white cake with blue flowers for a wedding of straight people, it is discrimination to not make it for any group of gay people, black people, Mormons, Mennonites, Catholics, etc.

Based on Colorado law, he cannot refuse to bake a cake just because it will be used at a gay wedding.

But according to the first amendment to the us constitution, which trumps Colorado law, he absolutely can. Congress shall pass no law which interferes with the free exercise of religion.

If he is an atheist who just hates gays, the constitution doesn’t afford him the right to refuse. But if his objection is based on religious beliefs, he absolutely has that right. How do you read the first amendment and not agree?
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

If he is an atheist who just hates gays, the constitution doesn’t afford him the right to refuse. But if his objection is based on religious beliefs, he absolutely has that right.

Is that a choice of his or was he just born that way?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Is that a choice of his or was he just born that way?

His religious beliefs? They are a choice. And the constitution says he has the right to act according to that choice.
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[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

But if his objection is based on religious beliefs, he absolutely has that right. How do you read the first amendment and not agree?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Legal precedent.

I know you said you are a simple guy, so you can appreciate this line from US vs Lee (1982): Not all burdens on religion are unconstitutional.

"... the Supreme Court has set limits on freedom of speech and religion. "

Civil Rights Act of 1964 has withstood more than a half century of tests.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Legal precedent.

I know you said you are a simple guy, so you can appreciate this line from US vs Lee (1982): Not all burdens on religion are unconstitutional.

"... the Supreme Court has set limits on freedom of speech and religion. "

Civil Rights Act of 1964 has withstood more than a half century of tests.

You make some good points.

But, according to Obama's federal government, if Muslim truckers don't want to transport alcohol for religious reasons, their employer was ordered to use other drivers. Using that same logic, why can't gay couples just use another baker who welcomes their trade. I don't see the difference.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by zimmy

They wanted a cake. They didn't say they wanted a "gay" cake. They didn't say they wanted it to be rainbow colored .

Yesterday afternoon, 28-year-old Dave Mullins and 31-year-old Charlie Craig stopped by Lakewood's Masterpiece Cakeshop to order their wedding reception cake -- what they hoped would be a rainbow-layered masterpiece decked out in teal and red frosting (their ceremony colors). Although they'll be reciting their vows in Provincetown, Massachusetts, in September, the couple plans to celebrate with a reception for friends and family in Denver in October. But after bakery owner Jack Phillips listened to their request, they say, he refused it. His business doesn't create cakes for gay weddings.

"It was the most awkward, surreal, very brief encounter," Mullins says. "We got up to leave, and to be totally honest, I said, '#^&#^&#^&#^& you and your homophobic cake shop.' And I may or may not have flipped him off."

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by scottw

decked out in teal and red frosting (their ceremony colors).

I'm beginning to wonder if they are really gay. C'mon Teal and Red....talk about clashing. They should know better

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

, I said, '#^&#^&#^&#^& you and your homophobic cake shop.' And I may or may not have flipped him off."

Sure. Because of liberal tolerance and respect and inclusion. Right?

No irony there, nope.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

But after bakery owner Jack Phillips listened to their request, they say, he refused it. His business doesn't create cakes for gay weddings.

"

Not sure where you found that quote, but court record has it that design was never discussed with Philips before he refused them

"The gay couple never even had the opportunity to discuss designs with Phillips, because the baker made it immediately clear that he would not sell them any wedding cake at all. " https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/27/o...ding-cake.html

“We went in with a bunch of ideas,” said Mullins, 33. “But [Phillips] came in, asked who the cake was for and then he said he wouldn’t make a cake for us. We were shocked and mortified and got up and left.”
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-n...912-story.html

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Not sure where you found that quote, but court record has it that design was never discussed with Philips before he refused them

ml[/url]

it would be interesting to see a link to where he got that quote
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[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Red herring. See above post. He can't refuse to sell them a cake that he would sell to a straight couple. They never asked him to do that.

This is what he stated, under oath, to the supreme court on Tuesday

“I am here at the Supreme Court today because I respectfully declined to create a custom cake that would celebrate a view of marriage in direct conflict with my faith’s core teachings on marriage. I offered to sell the two gentlemen suing me anything else in my shop or to design a cake for them for another occasion."

[scottw]

interesting comment from Justice Kennedy during arguments

“Tolerance is essential in a free society,” he said. But, he continued, “It seems to me that the state in its position here has neither been tolerant nor respectful of Mr. Phillips’s religious beliefs.”

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

This is what he stated, under oath, to the supreme court on Tuesday

“I am here at the Supreme Court today because I respectfully declined to create a custom cake that would celebrate a view of marriage in direct conflict with my faith’s core teachings on marriage. I offered to sell the two gentlemen suing me anything else in my shop or to design a cake for them for another occasion."

I Believe by quote-unquote custom cake he means a wedding cake. Has nothing to do with the wording. He would sell them cupcakes brownies excetera but not a wedding cake regardless if they wanted wording on it or not.
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I Believe by quote-unquote custom cake he means a wedding cake. Has nothing to do with the wording. He would sell them cupcakes brownies excetera but not a wedding cake regardless if they wanted wording on it or not.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

His religion would not want Mr. Phillips to deny gays, or anyone else, their right to eat. Sinners are to be fed as well as the faithful. Participating in their right to eat would not be prohibited by his religion, it might even be encouraged by it. But when the food is used to celebrate what is forbidden by his religion, he feels compelled not to participate in what is forbidden. That position applies to all of his customers regardless of their sexual orientation. Straights who want to buy any of his goods to celebrate some festivity that his religion condemns, presumably, would also be rejected.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by scottw

actually...he has previously turned down requests to create Halloween-themed cakes, lewd bachelor-party cakes, and a cake celebrating a divorce.

soooo....I think he's probably also bracing for law suits from witches and pumpkins, unhappy couples and guys with dirty minds

he does not bake create Halloween-themed cakes, lewd bachelor-party cakes, and a cake celebrating a divorce. to all customers !!!

not just gay one's.. please present the whole story

[wdmso]

defenders of this behavior are mostly the same anti government crowd they know the constitution better than you crowd the my religion is better than you crowd and ray more and Trump never assaulted anyone crowd and the i'll never side with someone who they i thinks a liberal crowd reguardless of the evidence or behavior or lie spoken by anyone

and claim they are objective and love MAGA

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

defenders of this behavior are mostly the same anti government crowd they know the constitution better than you crowd the my religion is better than you crowd and ray more and Trump never assaulted anyone crowd and the i'll never side with someone who they i thinks a liberal crowd reguardless of the evidence or behavior or lie spoken by anyone

and claim they are objective and love MAGA

Read the text of the first amendment, and tell us why it doesn't apply here. It's so easy to label this guy a bigot. It's a lot harder to tell me why the first amendment doesn't apply.

Then there's the Obama government's argument in the case of Muslim truck drivers. The federal government said that if reasonable accommodations can be made, then people at work cannot be forced to abandon their religious beliefs. In this case, there are other bakeries nearby, which were happy to provide the service. How is that not a reasonable alternative?

There's nothing easier than insulting this guy. That's not the point. T

WDMSO, do you think that the Bill Of Rights only applies to those sympathetic to liberals?

"he my religion is better than you crowd"

Who the hell is saying that here?

ALL you have is insults. Nothing even remotely pertinent to the Bill Of Rights, which is all that matters. I don't agree with the baker on this issue. But obviously the text of the First Amendment, and the feds' argument in the Muslim trucker case, make it clear he has this right.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

he does not bake create Halloween-themed cakes, lewd bachelor-party cakes, and a cake celebrating a divorce. to all customers !!!

not just gay one's.. please present the whole story

if you rewrite that in decipherable English I will try...