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Old 10-31-2017, 04:23 PM   #271
spence
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The more I read these long winded defenses of the 2nd Amendment the more I'm reminded of that old debate adage, when you're explaining you're losing.

I thought it was a very plainspoken document, easy to understand.
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Old 10-31-2017, 04:39 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
The federal judge that struck down the DC, referred to the jurisdiction as a state.
To spare spence's attention span I'll just follow his lead and say you are wrong.



Allowing an illegal border crosser to stay in the US with amnesty and start the legal immigration process
is like allowing a bank robber to go free and keep the money as long as he fills out a loan application.
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Old 10-31-2017, 04:50 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by spence View Post
The more I read these long winded defenses of the 2nd Amendment the more I'm reminded of that old debate adage, when you're explaining you're losing.

I thought it was a very plainspoken document, easy to understand.
Yes, easily understood and as the Federalists recognized, easily misconstructed and misrepresented.

For 66 years the "militia right" and "state's right" perversions held sway in the lower federal courts. All Heller did was re-affirm SCOTUS precedent on the individual right (on that point Heller was 9-0) and slap the lower federal courts back into line.

You still want to argue defunct and disgraced theories while complaining that the explanations of why you are wrong are too long.

It must be good to be a liberal!



Allowing an illegal border crosser to stay in the US with amnesty and start the legal immigration process
is like allowing a bank robber to go free and keep the money as long as he fills out a loan application.
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Old 10-31-2017, 04:51 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by spence View Post
The more I read these long winded defenses of the 2nd Amendment the more I'm reminded of that old debate adage, when you're explaining you're losing.

I thought it was a very plainspoken document, easy to understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence

" it's more about a lack of curiosity to understand or an inability to understand. "
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:53 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by spence View Post
The more I read these long winded defenses of the 2nd Amendment the more I'm reminded of that old debate adage, when you're explaining you're losing.
Well, that explains why you do the pigeon walk in your Hillary underoos after you post here.
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Old 11-02-2017, 05:33 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
"The right to arms has exactly the same kinds of "restrictions" . . . One can't brandish or threaten the use of a weapon, one can't shoot at someone without justification, one can not kill another person without justification."
none of these are right to arms "restrictions" in the context that you are proposing "common sense gun laws"

apples and oranges as Spence like to say
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Old 11-02-2017, 05:43 AM   #277
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The freedom of speech does not include threatening or child pornography. There are therefore limits to the freedoms guaranteed in the Bill Of Rights, which are not unconstitutional. That's all I am saying.


"threatening" is debatable...i don't think anyone has ever successfully argued that child pornography is free speech in any form and i don't think there is any freedom or right to possess such written or inferred in the Bill of Rights anywhere...horrible examples to use in an assault on the Bill of Rights...therefore...tsk...tsk
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Old 11-03-2017, 04:17 AM   #278
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To bad 2a people do not put the same effort in to the entire constitution and amendments that they do defending what they consider is Their slice ... but that would mean changing and defending things they dont like ..
we need to start with the POTUS

because what we have right now is a joke, and it's a laughingstock," Trump refering to the justice system

1 trick ponies ... stroke the base
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Old 11-03-2017, 09:55 AM   #279
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To bad 2a people do not put the same effort in to the entire constitution and amendments that they do defending what they consider is Their slice ... but that would mean changing and defending things they dont like ..
we need to start with the POTUS

because what we have right now is a joke, and it's a laughingstock," Trump refering to the justice system

1 trick ponies ... stroke the base
You really don't know what you're talking about. You should leave it alone. Move on to some other topic on which you have something more than a less than cursory knowledge.
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:01 AM   #280
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To bad 2a people do not put the same effort in to the entire constitution and amendments that they do defending what they consider is Their slice ... but that would mean changing and defending things they dont like ..
we need to start with the POTUS

because what we have right now is a joke, and it's a laughingstock," Trump refering to the justice system

1 trick ponies ... stroke the base

I live next door to a know it all, I recognize know it alls'.

Please inform me of the part of the constitution that I don't like seeing how I support the second amendment and according to you I don't support the rest of the constitution.
Tell us all about it. I am not aware of any parts that are attacked as much as the Second by progressives and fools that are hoodwinked by those in power who wish to control people and stay in power.

You are entitled to your tunnelvision opinion of the current president. He is a lot smarter than you haters think and he is accomplishing way more than Obama ever did even though he has to swim upstream. so cram it and deal with it

Last edited by Slipknot; 11-03-2017 at 01:18 PM..

"A government that does not trust it's law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust" James Madison

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so." Ronald Regan
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:32 AM   #281
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That matters why?

The founding fathers passed a state ban of all possession of firearms on campus. They presumed that was constitutional.
No, Jefferson and Madison did not pass a state ban restricting firearms on campus. The ban was strictly a University of Virginia campus ban. It was not a state law. It was not a statute. Jefferson and Madison would not have imposed on the right of any college or business, or association or household to either allow nor restrict guns on their property. A state law would have meant that no campuses could allow guns on their property. That was not the case.

It would have been unconstitutional to pass a law that forbade carrying a gun on campuses. That would have had to have been campus decisions, not a state or federal decision.
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:42 AM   #282
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No, Jefferson and Madison did not pass a state ban restricting firearms on campus. The ban was strictly a University of Virginia campus ban. It was not a state law. It was not a statute. Jefferson and Madison would not have imposed on the right of any college or business, or association or household to either allow nor restrict guns on their property. A state law would have meant that no campuses could allow guns on their property. That was not the case.

It would have been unconstitutional to pass a law that forbade carrying a gun on campuses. That would have had to have been campus decisions, not a state or federal decision.
"The ban was strictly a University of Virginia campus ban. It was not a state law."

Fine. It was a campus ban. But college campuses are also subject to the US Constitution, they are not allowed to violate constitutional rights. And obviously the founding fathers didn't think the ban was unconstitutional, and since they wrote the constitution, they presumably know a thing or two about what's constitutional.
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:48 AM   #283
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Fine. It was a campus ban. But college campuses are also subject to the US Constitution, they are not allowed to violate constitutional rights. And obviously the founding fathers didn't think the ban was unconstitutional, and since they wrote the constitution, they presumably know a thing or two about what's constitutional.
what I said in the other thread
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Old 11-03-2017, 12:00 PM   #284
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[QUOTE=Jim in CT;1130732
I'm not someone who thinks the constitution is a living, evolving document. I prefer to think of what they meant, at the time it was crafted. The evidence seems compelling to me (we can disagree obviously), that they felt that certain restrictions in the name of public safety, are well within the intent of the second amendment.[/QUOTE]

The Second Amendment IS "in the name of public safety." It is the public's safety against a tyrannical government. Restricting the public safety in the name of public safety is a contradiction. It's the sort of thing tyrants do as a legal pretense to consolidate power.

There are sometimes exceptions in extreme situations in which a law may be disobeyed. Crossing the street against a red light can be excused if it is done, for instance, to save a child from being mauled by a pit bull on the other side of the street. There is no necessity of creating a law to allow such "illegal" behavior.

The real agent that threatens the public safety in the above instance is not the law against crossing a red light, it is the aggressive pit bull. Nor is it the pit bull in itself that is the problem, rather it is the mismanagement of the pit bull. I have a friend with anger issues. To help him with his problem, he has been issued a well trained dog to accompany him in public. The dog is peaceful, tranquil, well mannered, and calming to the owner. It has been trained to be so. The dog is a pit bull. To ban pit bulls because some owners encourage them to be violent, as can be done with any other breed of dog, is no reason to ban pit bulls. But they are scary because they often are not well trained, or even are ill trained. So there is this notion that they should be banned. If it were the inherent nature of pit bulls to uncontrollably be violent, then it might be logical to ban them.

But if pit bulls were used to secure public or private safety, as in the above example, if they could be used to defend against those who wish to do you harm, then, in the larger interest of public safety, they would be a good thing to have. So long as they are trained to do so. So it would not be in the interest of public safety to ban an instrument which aids that safety because of its occasional misuse. It would be more logical, and overall safer to the public to have well trained dogs rather than banning some because of those aberrant behaviors.

If, in the interest of the greater public safety against abusive government, weapons can be used to that end, and public ownership is protected by a constitution in order to secure that privilege, claiming to ban weapons that strengthen the public safety against government on the grounds that is in the interest of public safety to ban them because of their relatively rare intentionally fatal misuse, is simply a deceitful gateway toward the path of weakening that Constitution and its guaranties.

But the emotional reaction to seeing a child mauled by a pit bull cries for getting rid of pit bulls.

Your emotional reaction calling for limitations to protect public safety against isolated incidents cries for some limit to the overall public safety in the larger political sense. But that is a reasonable reaction because you don't believe in the original reason for the Second Amendment, even though you say you"prefer to think of what they meant, at the time it was crafted."
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Old 11-03-2017, 01:15 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
The Second Amendment IS "in the name of public safety." It is the public's safety against a tyrannical government. Restricting the public safety in the name of public safety is a contradiction. It's the sort of thing tyrants do as a legal pretense to consolidate power.

There are sometimes exceptions in extreme situations in which a law may be disobeyed. Crossing the street against a red light can be excused if it is done, for instance, to save a child from being mauled by a pit bull on the other side of the street. There is no necessity of creating a law to allow such "illegal" behavior.

The real agent that threatens the public safety in the above instance is not the law against crossing a red light, it is the aggressive pit bull. Nor is it the pit bull in itself that is the problem, rather it is the mismanagement of the pit bull. I have a friend with anger issues. To help him with his problem, he has been issued a well trained dog to accompany him in public. The dog is peaceful, tranquil, well mannered, and calming to the owner. It has been trained to be so. The dog is a pit bull. To ban pit bulls because some owners encourage them to be violent, as can be done with any other breed of dog, is no reason to ban pit bulls. But they are scary because they often are not well trained, or even are ill trained. So there is this notion that they should be banned. If it were the inherent nature of pit bulls to uncontrollably be violent, then it might be logical to ban them.

But if pit bulls were used to secure public or private safety, as in the above example, if they could be used to defend against those who wish to do you harm, then, in the larger interest of public safety, they would be a good thing to have. So long as they are trained to do so. So it would not be in the interest of public safety to ban an instrument which aids that safety because of its occasional misuse. It would be more logical, and overall safer to the public to have well trained dogs rather than banning some because of those aberrant behaviors.

If, in the interest of the greater public safety against abusive government, weapons can be used to that end, and public ownership is protected by a constitution in order to secure that privilege, claiming to ban weapons that strengthen the public safety against government on the grounds that is in the interest of public safety to ban them because of their relatively rare intentionally fatal misuse, is simply a deceitful gateway toward the path of weakening that Constitution and its guaranties.

But the emotional reaction to seeing a child mauled by a pit bull cries for getting rid of pit bulls.

Your emotional reaction calling for limitations to protect public safety against isolated incidents cries for some limit to the overall public safety in the larger political sense. But that is a reasonable reaction because you don't believe in the original reason for the Second Amendment, even though you say you"prefer to think of what they meant, at the time it was crafted."



Can I send this the G.O.A.L.?
They could use some well written stuff to blast every politician in this state including the so called republican supporters of the second amendment. Seeing how there is a budget bill that passed yesterday which is on the governors' desk waiting for him to sign that includes an amendment to ban bump stocks with no path for legal ownership if you own one already making you a felon. Sounds like some kind of expos facto thing or something like that. He needs to line item veto that, but Charlie Baker is a tyrant turncoat.

"A government that does not trust it's law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust" James Madison

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so." Ronald Regan
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Old 11-04-2017, 07:44 AM   #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
The more I read these long winded defenses of the 2nd Amendment the more I'm reminded of that old debate adage, when you're explaining you're losing.

I thought it was a very plainspoken document, easy to understand.
The more I hear Anti2A screeds turn into legislation at the expense of others' Freedom the more I understand the foundation of 2A.

1A & 2A

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Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
"The ban was strictly a University of Virginia campus ban. It was not a state law."

Fine. It was a campus ban. But college campuses are also subject to the US Constitution, they are not allowed to violate constitutional rights. And obviously the founding fathers didn't think the ban was unconstitutional, and since they wrote the constitution, they presumably know a thing or two about what's constitutional.
Yet they do more and more these days

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Old 11-04-2017, 01:53 PM   #287
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To bad 2a people do not put the same effort in to the entire constitution and amendments that they do defending what they consider is Their slice ... but that would mean changing and defending things they dont like ..
Wanna bet?

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we need to start with the POTUS

because what we have right now is a joke, and it's a laughingstock," Trump refering to the justice system
It is a joke:

Give me your honest assessment of this "criminal justice" policy as explained by former St. Louis Police Chief Dan Isom:
"One thing we have to be aware of to give context to this whole problem is that we are looking at an urban problem. It’s much less a suburban or rural problem. It really affects young minorities— Hispanic and black males. I think that the suspects devalue life, the victims devalue life, and the system also devalues life. When you look at the shooting victims and suspects in these neighborhoods, you see 20 or 30 felony arrests, with eight convictions.

Often the convictions don’t result in any jail time at all; they’re getting probation on top of probation. This has caused a lot of us in cities to move toward federal prosecution, because we know on the state level it’s a hit-and-miss prospect: they’re arrested, they’re convicted, and they come out multiple times.

In Missouri, there’s a type of probation people can receive, and it has made it very difficult for us to establish a person as a convicted felon. I’ve heard other chiefs talking about the fact that a weapons charge in their state is only a misdemeanor offense. But in St. Louis, a weapons violation can turn out to be no offense at all. An individual will get arrested for a weapons charge, which is a felony, and often they plead to that case and get an SIS—a suspended imposition of sentence. It means that if you serve out your probation, which everybody does, that conviction is erased.

So if you’re arrested again with another weapon, you don’t have a conviction on your record, so you’re not a felon in possession of a weapon. If you continue to get multiple SISs, you never become a convicted felon. These offenders will often show up for other crimes, and if they never have a conviction, then you’re never able to put stiffer charges on them."

So the ridiculous murder rate in St Louis is due to what?

I say it is a "criminal justice" system that is better at catch and release than the most conservation minded fisherman. That constant stream of released criminals -- criminals who should be in jail -- that offend without penalty -- are the culprits and the responsible parties, not my gun.

I say it is "close the case by any means necessary" policies like these that embolden criminals and tell them they have nothing to fear from the "criminal justice" system.

I say it also tells the law-abiding that they are forsaken and their safety is not any priority for those in power.

That these criminal coddling liberals who have been in power for decades in these hell-holes tell us that they need gun control -- more power over the citizen who obeys the law -- is why we gun rights people have such little respect for liberals.

They have perverted the one duty they have complete and unquestioned power to do - arrest, prosecute and imprison lawbreakers -- and turned it into a criminal coddling industry where criminals are nurtured and grow to their full potential.

I'll add that this forgive and forget policy never ends with these violent armed criminals being CONVICTED, they never become a prohibited person as far as gun rights disability goes so these repeat armed criminals pass the NICS background check with flying colors . . . You want a universal background check??? Why, when hug-a-thug policies never convict actual, true armed criminals when they are caught?

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You haven't a clue and couldn't catch a clue during the clue mating season in a field full of horny clues even if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the clue mating dance.

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Allowing an illegal border crosser to stay in the US with amnesty and start the legal immigration process
is like allowing a bank robber to go free and keep the money as long as he fills out a loan application.
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Old 11-04-2017, 06:43 PM   #288
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LMAO
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