I'm never one to defend PETA, and I understand the Army's position, but I find this to be particulary revolting behavior by our government.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25735344/

-spence

Uhm.

Send them to Baltimore, they can see real gun shot wounds on real humans first hand.

I've spoken with many medics and they will indeed take them to trauma centers to get a good view of reality as part of their training. More power to them, they certainly are witness to some %$%$%$%$ that would make my innards turn.

I think the issue here is how to "treat" the wound, which is a bit ironic as I'm sure none of the pigs live ;)

-spence

exactly, any major inner city er would give military triage units all the projecticle and ied trauma they could handle

They have been using live animals for many years. It used to be goats. Douse head in gasoline and light it. Put out flames, break bones, a bullet hole or 2. And usually disembowelment.

If the animal died in the first 2 hours the instructors knew they did too much to the goat. If it lived past 2 hours it had to be kept alive for 22 more hours or the testee would fail.



Would you rather they trained and tested on humans? To me goat is pretty cheap compared to one of our soldiers lives.

Would you rather they trained and tested on humans? To me goat is pretty cheap compared to one of our soldiers lives.
The issue isn't expense, it's about conscience.

Most slaughterhouses have been designed and are now regulated to minimize the suffering of the animal, and we have animal cruelty laws to keep people from causing suffering to animals in other ways.

This seems to say that the good of the Army is more important than our own laws, which to me doesn't make any sense.

-spence

Not trying to be disagreeable or look for an argument,,, JMHO

I don't care if they shoot hundreds of pigs or PETA people,,, If it trains them to save the lives of our troops there should be no expense spared,,,,

I am not trying to be a careless jerk,,, just talking from the standpoint of a wounded serviceman's son.

I agree w/ the inner cities. plenty of trauma there.. Also not a PETA guy but heres an idea...shoot all the wackos. for example the 20something year old guy that was just in the news for raping that 2yr old girl. use those mtfers as experiments. rid the world of useless people and maybe, just maybe it will scare/deter some of them from doing stupid s%^&!

Not trying to be disagreeable or look for an argument,,, JMHO

I don't care if they shoot hundreds of pigs or PETA people,,, If it trains them to save the lives of our troops there should be no expense spared,,,,

I am not trying to be a careless jerk,,, just talking from the standpoint of a wounded serviceman's son.

That's how I see it as well. I am not seeing this from a monetary standpoint.

One of the members in our unit re enlisted for SF back in 1980. He wanted to be a medic on a team. The above description was the test he had to pass. (He passed)

The triage route in a hospital isn't the same. Service tests are conducted in simulated battlefield conditions. After the SM passes the test the goat is put down. Not sure if they are eaten or not.

Would you rather they trained and tested on humans? To me goat is pretty cheap compared to one of our soldiers lives.

Considering a goat bleating or whatever doesn't prepare you for the horrific screams of a human in severe pain? Yeah actually I do prefer them working on humans and knowing if they're gonna freeze up or not.

Quick chat with a buddy of mine who's an ex navy medic, he says "goat lab" did help, but at the same time, doing ride alongs also helps tremendously. You really don't know how you will react to a human until you have it in your face.

Considering a goat bleating or whatever doesn't prepare you for the horrific screams of a human in severe pain? Yeah actually I do prefer them working on humans and knowing if they're gonna freeze up or not.

From what he told is after he graduated it was no picnic. Anyone who takes that course and passes most likely won't "freeze up". The trainees are watched very closely during the test. And the trainers are some of the best in the business.

From what he told is after he graduated it was no picnic. Anyone who takes that course and passes most likely won't "freeze up". The trainees are watched very closely during the test. And the trainers are some of the best in the business.

WEMT you do a million and one mocks.
You do ride alongs.
You still never know how you're going to react until its your turn to do the work.

WEMT you do a million and one mocks.
You do ride alongs.
You still never know how you're going to react until its your turn to do the work.


True, But in a ride along the medic needs to get the patient to the hospital and then the hospital takes over. An hour or so maybe?

The goats had to be kept alive for 24 hours. Not an easy task. The trainers know what they can do to the goats and not have them die too quickly. Thus the 2 hour window.

True, But in a ride along the medic needs to get the patient to the hospital and then the hospital takes over. An hour or so maybe?

Really depends on the training. WEMT's are expected to be able to do what a normal EMT can do without the ambulance or extended equipment.

The goats had to be kept alive for 24 hours. Not an easy task. The trainers know what they can do to the goats and not have them die too quickly. Thus the 2 hour window.

Get another goat. :hihi:

I say save the goats and pigs, let's just shoot the rag heads and treat them as the experiment.

Keep them alive and kicking and screaming for the experience then just put them down after 24 hours.

I say save the goats and pigs, let's just shoot the rag heads and treat them as the experiment.

Keep them alive and kicking and screaming for the experience then just put them down after 24 hours.

:humpty::btu::btu:

I say save the goats and pigs, let's just shoot the rag heads and treat them as the experiment.

Keep them alive and kicking and screaming for the experience then just put them down after 24 hours.
I hadn't considered bigotry as an option, but if the shoe fits.

-spence

A big pit with a spit over it and porky rolling slowly over it for hours just out of the flames reach and I can smell the porky goodness just dripping juices into the fire. Crispy skin and cheek meat, yum!

I hadn't considered bigotry as an option, but if the shoe fits.

-spence

Oh look! He even has a buddy in agreement! Shocker on that one!

goat control..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2fPdE9NwP0&feature=related

A big pit with a spit over it and porky rolling slowly over it for hours just out of the flames reach and I can smell the porky goodness just dripping juices into the fire. Crispy skin and cheek meat, yum!

I'm a lover of pork fat...that's not the issue in question.

-spence

goat control..



gotta be a .50cal...?

probably-

Yes, the need of the United States to care for Her wounded superseeds the need of a pig to die slightly more humanely than it would have died had it been processed for food.

gotta be a .50cal...?

Bigger than that.

I had pork loin in a green chili sauce complimented by a nice helping of pinto beans for lunch. Now I am airing out...and I aint talking about a tech 9.

barret 50 cal. for all you tofu eating hippies.


Spence enemies have no conscious.



My nephew is currently doing 36 and 72 hour shifts learning as much as possible to keep our men and women safe (army Medic). If a few pigs have to die so be it, to echo mac better than any of our men and women.

Yes, the need of the United States to care for Her wounded superseeds the need of a pig to die slightly more humanely than it would have died had it been processed for food.
Yea, at IBP back home they process the hogs with random gunfire then keep them alive and kicking :rolleyes:

Meat packing is very scientific these days, less suffering = better product.

And Timber, this is one of those slippery slope arguments and there are other methods to get the job done.

-spence

So lets see take a goat's life to help save a US serviceman's life..........
this is a no brainer. Any training that helps our soldiers is a good thing.

Spence enemies have no conscious.
So we shouldn't either? Every time I hear rhetoric like this it makes me think they might be winning.

By that measure we should have just used the GITMO detainees for medical training.

-spence

So we shouldn't either? Every time I hear rhetoric like this it makes me think they might be winning.

By that measure we should have just used the GITMO detainees for medical training.

-spence

Now there is an idea.

Don't think for a minute that they wouldn't do it to us if they had any formal training programs. (medical wise)

Now there is an idea.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i113/lazergunpewpew/1215961025702.jpg

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you" - Nietzsche

Seems to be popular in ridiculous arguments like this.

Now there is an idea.

Don't think for a minute that they wouldn't do it to us if they had any formal training programs. (medical wise)

And thats why we should strive not to be barbarians, but civil.

I'm guessing Spence doesn't hunt much.

Are we still talking about pigs?

Who here has ever slit a deer's throat to finish it off, or wrung a turkey's neck, squished a squirrel's head? You're all outdoorsmen who take game - killers on some level.

The US Army in ammunition testing once used human cadavers while testing the 45ACP -mostly deceased convicts who signed their bodies over to science. So a few pigs for medical purposes sounds reasonable -I hope they follow it (training) with a stint at an inner city ER for practical application.

that we are also using pigs to grow spare body parts
to replace human organs with pig grown implants.

not to mention growing a human ear on the back of a mouse.:rollem:

So we shouldn't either? Every time I hear rhetoric like this it makes me think they might be winning.

By that measure we should have just used the GITMO detainees for medical training.

-spence

The life it can be called that of a swine is waaaaaaay down on the totum pole compared to that of a human being. Anyone can see that :kewl:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i113/lazergunpewpew/1215961025702.jpg

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you" - Nietzsche

Seems to be popular in ridiculous arguments like this.

If I remember right. That means "work will set you free". Or something to that extent. I spent 15 months in Germany and befriended some of the locals. Very nice people. The older ones liked the GI's.


The idea of humanely putting down the pigs is against reasoning. The goats or pigs are subjected to the extreme that they would surely die quickly if not for the medics attention.

I don't remember if the medic had to watch the setting up of the test (stabbing,burning,shooting) or if they were called in after it was complete. Like a call for a medic on a battlefield.

If I remember right. That means "work will set you free". Or something to that extent. I spent 15 months in Germany and befriended some of the locals. Very nice people. The older ones liked the GI's.

Work Makes Free.
Gate from your typical concentration camp like where Mengele liked to work! He'd be in agreement with you about using gitmo prisoners. ;)

"....Most slaughterhouses have been designed and are now regulated to minimize the suffering of the animal, and we have animal cruelty laws to keep people from causing suffering to animals in other ways....Meat packing is very scientific these days, less suffering = better product.-Spence" Taken from two posts.

"the exercise is conducted in a controlled environment with the pigs anesthetized the entire time" Taken from the MSNBC article.

So as i see it the little piggy quietly goes to sleep and knows nothing of whats going on. Better than his brethren get at the laughterhouses.

Way better than what a striped bass gets, pulled out of the water to slowly die of suffocation with an occasional flop laying on the deck or beach.
But hey, we are civilized and would never do that right. Or is that different?:deadhorse:

Work Makes Free.
Gate from your typical concentration camp like where Mengele liked to work! He'd be in agreement with you about using gitmo prisoners. ;)
I guess I should have put one of these after my previous post. :rolleyes: As it was meant to be read with a bit of sarcasm.

If 19 thousand pigs have to die to save the life of one of our service men, I am all about it. I dont mind if my bacon has a few holes in it.. :hihi:

This is a no-brainer.

Spence it is rare when we disagree on moral's..

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i113/lazergunpewpew/1215961025702.jpg

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you" - Nietzsche

Seems to be popular in ridiculous arguments like this.

Likwid I loved that quote. Read that book and others. That is probably the most profound words he wrote of all his teachings.

I guess I should have put one of these after my previous post. :rolleyes: As it was meant to be read with a bit of sarcasm.

Probably. ;)

The other place gets to you man.... Just ask fishpoopoo :hihi:

Probably. ;)

The other place gets to you man.... Just ask fishpoopoo :hihi:

I know. Especially if guns are brought up.:nailem:

Imagine being in a convoy and an IED blows up the first vehicle. Everyone starts screaming medic, or corpman. Some kid comes rushing up to the injured and hits the ground flying opening up his bags. Other guys are applying direct pressure to the wounds, and this poor kid has to start an IV line somewhere on the injured soldier, but his arms and legs are blow off. Imagine trying to find a vein to start fluids under those conditions. Well the injured soldier lived because first of all the medic/corpman used all the weapons he carried and what he was taught to save a life under the most trying circumstances. Only because of the medic/corpmans training do so many soldiers who are so severely wounded make it home. Imagine having to treat three, four, five, or six soldiers at once. Establishing airways in crushed tracheas, holding arteries closed with your fingers until someone finds the medic a hemostat to use. Guts and determination, first, and if they need pigs to learn the rest, I'll help buy them all the pigs they need.

Imagine being in a convoy and an IED blows up the first vehicle. Everyone starts screaming medic, or corpman. Some kid comes rushing up to the injured and hits the ground flying opening up his bags. Other guys are applying direct pressure to the wounds, and this poor kid has to start an IV line somewhere on the injured soldier, but his arms and legs are blow off. Imagine trying to find a vein to start fluids under those conditions. Well the injured soldier lived because first of all the medic/corpman used all the weapons he carried and what he was taught to save a life under the most trying circumstances. Only because of the medic/corpmans training do so many soldiers who are so severely wounded make it home. Imagine having to treat three, four, five, or six soldiers at once. Establishing airways in crushed tracheas, holding arteries closed with your fingers until someone finds the medic a hemostat to use. Guts and determination, first, and if they need pigs to learn the rest, I'll help buy them all the pigs they need.

Amen to that.

not only did you hit the nail squarely on the head

but you sank it in one blow. Very well said ...

"Okay men, were gonna shoot the pigs in various places on thier bodies to simulate field wounds you might encounter"

'Sgt. Smith you may commence firing" "Yes Sir"

bang bang bang!!! Oink squeal squeal

Sir exercise is finished, three pigs did not make it though the medics did all they could but the other 7 will be alright, the men did a fine job and this will make our people in the field have a better chance to survive if hit"

"Very Good Sgt. Smith you may dismiss the men from the exercise after debriefing" Oh, and by the way, what was the dispostion of the pigs that didn't make it"?

"OH, ah yes sir, they are being sent to your compound for the battalion LUAU just as you ordered, all head shots just as you asked"!

"Very well Sgt. Smith, carry on, this is Hawaii you know, must not break tradition"

"Yes sir will do"

It is so easy for people to say this is a bad, cruel thing. Hands on experience is key to learning most things in our lives. It's how we DO.
I dont like to see any living thing suffer but sometimes its a necessary thing. I wouldnt want someone operating on me that had only SEEN it happen and never actually done it....nor would any of you and neither should out troops!


If you think that a pig DYING this way is so bad than you have no idea how they LIVE. I am not talking local "Joe Farmers" pigs I am talking the large farms most of our food comes from.