Army shoots live pigs for medical drill

[spence]

I'm never one to defend PETA, and I understand the Army's position, but I find this to be particulary revolting behavior by our government.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25735344/

-spence

[likwid]

Uhm.

Send them to Baltimore, they can see real gun shot wounds on real humans first hand.

[spence]

I've spoken with many medics and they will indeed take them to trauma centers to get a good view of reality as part of their training. More power to them, they certainly are witness to some %$%$%$%$ that would make my innards turn.

I think the issue here is how to "treat" the wound, which is a bit ironic as I'm sure none of the pigs live

-spence

[striperman36]

exactly, any major inner city er would give military triage units all the projecticle and ied trauma they could handle

[MAC]

They have been using live animals for many years. It used to be goats. Douse head in gasoline and light it. Put out flames, break bones, a bullet hole or 2. And usually disembowelment.

If the animal died in the first 2 hours the instructors knew they did too much to the goat. If it lived past 2 hours it had to be kept alive for 22 more hours or the testee would fail.



Would you rather they trained and tested on humans? To me goat is pretty cheap compared to one of our soldiers lives.

[spence]

Originally Posted by MAC

Would you rather they trained and tested on humans? To me goat is pretty cheap compared to one of our soldiers lives.

The issue isn't expense, it's about conscience.

Most slaughterhouses have been designed and are now regulated to minimize the suffering of the animal, and we have animal cruelty laws to keep people from causing suffering to animals in other ways.

This seems to say that the good of the Army is more important than our own laws, which to me doesn't make any sense.

-spence

[MotoXcowboy]

I agree w/ the inner cities. plenty of trauma there.. Also not a PETA guy but heres an idea...shoot all the wackos. for example the 20something year old guy that was just in the news for raping that 2yr old girl. use those mtfers as experiments. rid the world of useless people and maybe, just maybe it will scare/deter some of them from doing stupid s%^&!

[likwid]

Originally Posted by MAC

Would you rather they trained and tested on humans? To me goat is pretty cheap compared to one of our soldiers lives.

Considering a goat bleating or whatever doesn't prepare you for the horrific screams of a human in severe pain? Yeah actually I do prefer them working on humans and knowing if they're gonna freeze up or not.

Quick chat with a buddy of mine who's an ex navy medic, he says "goat lab" did help, but at the same time, doing ride alongs also helps tremendously. You really don't know how you will react to a human until you have it in your face.

[MAC]

Originally Posted by likwid

Considering a goat bleating or whatever doesn't prepare you for the horrific screams of a human in severe pain? Yeah actually I do prefer them working on humans and knowing if they're gonna freeze up or not.

From what he told is after he graduated it was no picnic. Anyone who takes that course and passes most likely won't "freeze up". The trainees are watched very closely during the test. And the trainers are some of the best in the business.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by MAC

From what he told is after he graduated it was no picnic. Anyone who takes that course and passes most likely won't "freeze up". The trainees are watched very closely during the test. And the trainers are some of the best in the business.

WEMT you do a million and one mocks.
You do ride alongs.
You still never know how you're going to react until its your turn to do the work.

[MAC]

Originally Posted by likwid

WEMT you do a million and one mocks.
You do ride alongs.
You still never know how you're going to react until its your turn to do the work.

True, But in a ride along the medic needs to get the patient to the hospital and then the hospital takes over. An hour or so maybe?

The goats had to be kept alive for 24 hours. Not an easy task. The trainers know what they can do to the goats and not have them die too quickly. Thus the 2 hour window.

[GattaFish]

Not trying to be disagreeable or look for an argument,,, JMHO

I don't care if they shoot hundreds of pigs or PETA people,,, If it trains them to save the lives of our troops there should be no expense spared,,,,

I am not trying to be a careless jerk,,, just talking from the standpoint of a wounded serviceman's son.

[MAC]

Originally Posted by GattaFish

Not trying to be disagreeable or look for an argument,,, JMHO

I don't care if they shoot hundreds of pigs or PETA people,,, If it trains them to save the lives of our troops there should be no expense spared,,,,

I am not trying to be a careless jerk,,, just talking from the standpoint of a wounded serviceman's son.

That's how I see it as well. I am not seeing this from a monetary standpoint.

One of the members in our unit re enlisted for SF back in 1980. He wanted to be a medic on a team. The above description was the test he had to pass. (He passed)

The triage route in a hospital isn't the same. Service tests are conducted in simulated battlefield conditions. After the SM passes the test the goat is put down. Not sure if they are eaten or not.

[wheresmy50]

Yes, the need of the United States to care for Her wounded superseeds the need of a pig to die slightly more humanely than it would have died had it been processed for food.

[spence]

Originally Posted by wheresmy50

Yes, the need of the United States to care for Her wounded superseeds the need of a pig to die slightly more humanely than it would have died had it been processed for food.

Yea, at IBP back home they process the hogs with random gunfire then keep them alive and kicking

Meat packing is very scientific these days, less suffering = better product.

And Timber, this is one of those slippery slope arguments and there are other methods to get the job done.

-spence

[EarnedStripes44]

I had pork loin in a green chili sauce complimented by a nice helping of pinto beans for lunch. Now I am airing out...and I aint talking about a tech 9.

[ThrowingTimber]

barret 50 cal. for all you tofu eating hippies.


Spence enemies have no conscious.



My nephew is currently doing 36 and 72 hour shifts learning as much as possible to keep our men and women safe (army Medic). If a few pigs have to die so be it, to echo mac better than any of our men and women.

[keeperreaper]

So lets see take a goat's life to help save a US serviceman's life..........
this is a no brainer. Any training that helps our soldiers is a good thing.

[spence]

Originally Posted by ThrowingTimber

Spence enemies have no conscious.

So we shouldn't either? Every time I hear rhetoric like this it makes me think they might be winning.

By that measure we should have just used the GITMO detainees for medical training.

-spence

[MAC]

Originally Posted by spence

So we shouldn't either? Every time I hear rhetoric like this it makes me think they might be winning.

By that measure we should have just used the GITMO detainees for medical training.

-spence

Now there is an idea.

Don't think for a minute that they wouldn't do it to us if they had any formal training programs. (medical wise)

[likwid]

Originally Posted by MAC

Now there is an idea.

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you" - Nietzsche

Seems to be popular in ridiculous arguments like this.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by MAC

Now there is an idea.

Don't think for a minute that they wouldn't do it to us if they had any formal training programs. (medical wise)

And thats why we should strive not to be barbarians, but civil.

[ThrowingTimber]

Originally Posted by spence

So we shouldn't either? Every time I hear rhetoric like this it makes me think they might be winning.

By that measure we should have just used the GITMO detainees for medical training.

-spence

The life it can be called that of a swine is waaaaaaay down on the totum pole compared to that of a human being. Anyone can see that

[wheresmy50]

I'm guessing Spence doesn't hunt much.

Are we still talking about pigs?

Who here has ever slit a deer's throat to finish it off, or wrung a turkey's neck, squished a squirrel's head? You're all outdoorsmen who take game - killers on some level.

[TommyTuna]

The US Army in ammunition testing once used human cadavers while testing the 45ACP -mostly deceased convicts who signed their bodies over to science. So a few pigs for medical purposes sounds reasonable -I hope they follow it (training) with a stint at an inner city ER for practical application.

[Raven]

that we are also using pigs to grow spare body parts
to replace human organs with pig grown implants.

not to mention growing a human ear on the back of a mouse.

[BW from AZ]

"....Most slaughterhouses have been designed and are now regulated to minimize the suffering of the animal, and we have animal cruelty laws to keep people from causing suffering to animals in other ways....Meat packing is very scientific these days, less suffering = better product.-Spence" Taken from two posts.

"the exercise is conducted in a controlled environment with the pigs anesthetized the entire time" Taken from the MSNBC article.

So as i see it the little piggy quietly goes to sleep and knows nothing of whats going on. Better than his brethren get at the laughterhouses.

Way better than what a striped bass gets, pulled out of the water to slowly die of suffocation with an occasional flop laying on the deck or beach.
But hey, we are civilized and would never do that right. Or is that different?

[Swimmer]

Imagine being in a convoy and an IED blows up the first vehicle. Everyone starts screaming medic, or corpman. Some kid comes rushing up to the injured and hits the ground flying opening up his bags. Other guys are applying direct pressure to the wounds, and this poor kid has to start an IV line somewhere on the injured soldier, but his arms and legs are blow off. Imagine trying to find a vein to start fluids under those conditions. Well the injured soldier lived because first of all the medic/corpman used all the weapons he carried and what he was taught to save a life under the most trying circumstances. Only because of the medic/corpmans training do so many soldiers who are so severely wounded make it home. Imagine having to treat three, four, five, or six soldiers at once. Establishing airways in crushed tracheas, holding arteries closed with your fingers until someone finds the medic a hemostat to use. Guts and determination, first, and if they need pigs to learn the rest, I'll help buy them all the pigs they need.

[MAC]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

Imagine being in a convoy and an IED blows up the first vehicle. Everyone starts screaming medic, or corpman. Some kid comes rushing up to the injured and hits the ground flying opening up his bags. Other guys are applying direct pressure to the wounds, and this poor kid has to start an IV line somewhere on the injured soldier, but his arms and legs are blow off. Imagine trying to find a vein to start fluids under those conditions. Well the injured soldier lived because first of all the medic/corpman used all the weapons he carried and what he was taught to save a life under the most trying circumstances. Only because of the medic/corpmans training do so many soldiers who are so severely wounded make it home. Imagine having to treat three, four, five, or six soldiers at once. Establishing airways in crushed tracheas, holding arteries closed with your fingers until someone finds the medic a hemostat to use. Guts and determination, first, and if they need pigs to learn the rest, I'll help buy them all the pigs they need.

Amen to that.

[Raven]

not only did you hit the nail squarely on the head

but you sank it in one blow. Very well said ...