I remember 9/11 like it was yesterday. In particular, I remember the "W" address to our nation from atop a smoking pile of rubble and ensuing response the US made. He seemd like a hero to me at the time.
On the eve of the "W" farewell address, I feel like once again he's standing atop a smoking pile of (literal) rubble. He's got a big pair of donkey ears now instead of a megaphone. Anyone else feel this way, and how will you remember him?

He will be remembered as a complete tool who chose to guide this country based on Ideals Vs. rational thought. Furthermore, the ones who held his puppet strings as he chased rabbits while the farm burned are laughing themselves right to the bank.

He'll always be 4th best in line....Right after Bozo, Clarabell, and Krusty

I remember that moment on 9/11 as well and I remember thinking how maybe GWB was going to be a great president..... then I actually woke up and starting educating myself on political affairs and that all went out the window...
still though, that speech was good (I think that was the last good one though)

that speech was good (I think that was the last good one though)
For all we know, they had that speach planned months before..

who ! :huh:

never heard of him

and don't care to

thanks a whole Bunch :love:

For all we know, they had that speach planned months before..

which would then make him and Cheney the greatest geniuses of all time.

You cant have it both ways.

He's got a big pair of donkey ears now


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/ravenob1/donkey.png

I remember 9/11 like it was yesterday. In particular, I remember the "W" address to our nation from atop a smoking pile of rubble and ensuing response the US made. He seemd like a hero to me at the time.
On the eve of the "W" farewell address, I feel like once again he's standing atop a smoking pile of (literal) rubble. He's got a big pair of donkey ears now instead of a megaphone. Anyone else feel this way, and how will you remember him?

Well put.
I do believe he has had the country best interest at heart. I also believe he is honest and genuine. I know one thing for sure. He set the Republican party backwards,. I just wish they were more forceful in defending themselfs and the positions they took. Taking the high road does not work in Washington.

Did anyone watch Bush's farewell address last night?

There should be no doubt left that Bush is living in an alternate universe, seeing his legacy only as he wishes to see it, and not caring one whip if you don't agree.

A few times I don't know how he kept a straight face.

-spence

I think he's a smart guy who loves his country (as do all people who go into politics) but he's intellectually lazy and uncurious. That causes him to not read papers, watch the news, ask questions, etc. and thus, when someone like a Cheney or a Rumsfield would tell him something, he would go along with it w/o thinking it thru or the ramifications.

Did anyone watch Bush's farewell address last night?

There should be no doubt left that Bush is living in an alternate universe, seeing his legacy only as he wishes to see it, and not caring one whip if you don't agree.

A few times I don't know how he kept a straight face.

-spence

I watched more of his address than Obama did.

Here's a little prediction that we all know will come true and already has started..... Obama will keep most, if not all Bush policies in effect.... the dems will now love those same policies, that they hated Bush for...... And they will take credit for the good that comes out of them while hanging Bush with anything bad that happens over the next four years.

Here's a little prediction that we all know will come true and already has started..... Obama will keep most, if not all Bush policies in effect.... the dems will now love those same policies, that they hated Bush for...... And they will take credit for the good that comes out of them while hanging Bush with anything bad that happens over the next four years.

What are your predictions for the stock market i'd like to bet against you and become independently wealthy.

Here's a little prediction that we all know will come true and already has started..... Obama will keep most, if not all Bush policies in effect.... the dems will now love those same policies, that they hated Bush for...... And they will take credit for the good that comes out of them while hanging Bush with anything bad that happens over the next four years.

I think your right to some extent. But not with the extreme policies.

What are your predictions for the stock market i'd like to bet agoinst you and become independently wealthy.

so far

- Obama is keeping Bush tax cuts in place, a reversal of his prior statements
- He is keeping the same general in charge in Iraq and just this week Clinton said " Both she and the President are intersted in ending the war in Iraq responslibly" What the hell does that mean? Wasnt that McCain's stance? I thought Obama was all about withdrawing troups?

More to come

Here's a little prediction that we all know will come true and already has started..... Obama will keep most, if not all Bush policies in effect.... the dems will now love those same policies, that they hated Bush for...... And they will take credit for the good that comes out of them while hanging Bush with anything bad that happens over the next four years.

Pls. tell me when Obama starts embracing ignorance and assaulting science, environmental policies, worker's rights, a womans right to choose, starts torturing people, politicizing the justice department, cooking intelligence for political ends, etc. and I'll start critizing Obama.

ending the war in Iraq responslibly" What the hell does that mean? Wasnt that McCain's stance? I thought Obama was all about withdrawing troups?
More to come

McCain's take was 'As long as it takes'

HOPEFULLY, to me, responsibly ending it means a steady draw down of forces in the next year, until we have a minimal presence, at least on the front lines... too many kids getting killed for no reason.

Pls. tell me when Obama starts embracing ignorance and assaulting science, environmental policies, worker's rights, a womans right to choose, starts torturing people, politicizing the justice department, cooking intelligence for political ends, etc. and I'll start critizing Obama.

nice one!!! :rotfl:

Pls. tell me when Obama starts embracing ignorance and assaulting science, environmental policies, worker's rights, a womans right to choose, starts torturing people, politicizing the justice department, cooking intelligence for political ends, etc. and I'll start critizing Obama.

Right. and there have been no advances in science in the last 8 years. No funding at all. Workers rights have changes how? A woman's right to abort an unborn child has changed how? I'll use the " your child is buried in a box somewhere" analogy to defend mild forms of information exstraction. The intelligence Bush used was the same that everyone including Clinton had. You have Obama on a pedistal without him doing a damn thing.

Right. and there have been no advances in science in the last 8 years. No funding at all. Workers rights have changes how? A woman's right to abort an unborn child has changed how? I'll use the " your child is buried in a box somewhere" analogy to defend mild forms of information exstraction. The intelligence Bush used was the same that everyone including Clinton had. You have Obama on a pedistal without him doing a damn thing.

The intrusion of politics over science in the making of policy was unprecidented during the Bush years, and the influence of corporate interests in matters such as workplace safety through deregulation efforts were driven by idiology and not common sense.

Buttman, it's like you're trying to rip Obama down before he's had the chance to do a damn thing.

Sometimes I think some people just don't get why others are so critical of the Bush Administration. They are so convinced the Liberals just had the "man" they have forgotten what makes America so great.

-spence

If Bush's legacy is so bad why is Obama keeping Bush people around, for instance the Secdef, and the guy getting promoted to fed chief.

The intrusion of politics over science in the making of policy was unprecidented during the Bush years, -spence

BINGO.

I can tell you there is a list of top level scientists at NASA, EPA, NOAA who have been stifled by the administration; You can call it Gore BS, since he talked about the editing of reports in 'Truth' BUT

there is a top level guy at EPA, who specializes in Sea level rise, rates, costs, etc, and has been studying it and working on policy since the 80's. He was basically told to shut up and any comments and reports he was to make, would go through the administrators from now on. Peer review is one thing, it is what science thrives on. Political review kills science. Plain and simple.

"If Bush's legacy is so bad why is Obama keeping Bush people around, for instance the Secdef, and the guy getting promoted to fed chief."
Because some of them are qualified, I think keeping Gates on was a GREAT move. it should be about putting good people in position to do good things.

The intrusion of politics over science in the making of policy was unprecidented during the Bush years, and the influence of corporate interests in matters such as workplace safety through deregulation efforts were driven by idiology and not common sense.

Buttman, it's like you're trying to rip Obama down before he's had the chance to do a damn thing.

Sometimes I think some people just don't get why others are so critical of the Bush Administration. They are so convinced the Liberals just had the "man" they have forgotten what makes America so great.-spence



Buttman! Is that's the best the smartest man on the internet could come up with. How disappointing, Truth be told SPENCE the work place has never, I repeat never been safer, more worker friendly and more employee protected. Ever! Do you even work in a real work enviroment. Try to fire someone for being a slacker now a days. It can't be done.


I'm not ripping the MAN down. I'm just not saying he can walk on water. Hell, if he does 1/3 of what he said, I'll be voting for him in four years.

I'm not ripping the MAN down. I'm just not saying he can walk on water. Hell, if he does 1/3 of what he said, I'll be voting for him in four years.
This has been saved on my hard drive. :wavey:

This has been saved on my hard drive. :wavey:

Yoy have my word Nebe, unless Palin's running:rotf2:

Buttman! Is that's the best the smartest man on the internet could come up with. How disappointing, Truth be told SPENCE the work place has never, I repeat never been safer, more worker friendly and more employee protected. Ever! Do you even work in a real work enviroment. Try to fire someone for being a slacker now a days. It can't be done.
Sorry, I was transcribing some ancient Korean poems in my head last night and the "utt" sound is phonetically the same as "uck" in that language. My bad...

But being able to fire someone isn't the kind of protection we're talking about. Yes, in general most workplaces are pretty safe but the credit should be given to the people who think like Ralph Nader (even though he's a kook) rather than Ronald Reagan. But under Bush the anti-government attitude sent regulations in the other direction. Granted, some conservatives think this was a good thing, who cares if Timmy's dad dies in the coal mine as long as the government doesn't get in the way.

I'm not ripping the MAN down. I'm just not saying he can walk on water. Hell, if he does 1/3 of what he said, I'll be voting for him in four years.
I don't think you really understand why some are so fascinated by the man. 1) He's black 2) he's inspiring 3) he seems to be pretty smart 4) he's pragmatic 5) we're in the middle of a generational shift and it looks like the people actually bucked the system and chose someone who (on paper at least) might be just what we need to lead us into the next century.

Obama has trancended the traditional wedge issues and has the potential to really change the dialogue in this country...

...or he could be a complete disaster. But I figured I'd at least give him a chance before passing judgement, as I did with GWB.

-spence

But he doesn't fish

Sorry, I was transcribing some ancient Korean poems in my head last night and the "utt" sound is phonetically the same as "uck" in that language. My bad...

But being able to fire someone isn't the kind of protection we're talking about. Yes, in general most workplaces are pretty safe but the credit should be given to the people who think like Ralph Nader (even though he's a kook) rather than Ronald Reagan. But under Bush the anti-government attitude sent regulations in the other direction. Granted, some conservatives think this was a good thing, who cares if Timmy's dad dies in the coal mine as long as the government doesn't get in the way.


I don't think you really understand why some are so fascinated by the man. 1) He's black 2) he's inspiring 3) he seems to be pretty smart 4) he's pragmatic 5) we're in the middle of a generational shift and it looks like the people actually bucked the system and chose someone who (on paper at least) might be just what we need to lead us into the next century.

Obama has trancended the traditional wedge issues and has the potential to really change the dialogue in this country...

...or he could be a complete disaster. But I figured I'd at least give him a chance before passing judgement, as I did with GWB.

-spence

Maybe if you could supply so statistics to back that up it would help.
Here's a link http://www.bls.gov/iif/, in every catagory, the work place injury rates have steadily improved year to year.

This is what people and the media have done in regards to Bush. Throw out an untruth, say it often enough, Bush won't defend himself, and it becomes fact. The fact is the workplace is safer now then 8 years ago.

As far as Obama goes, I agree with you.

This is what people and the media have done in regards to Bush. Throw out an untruth, say it often enough, Bush won't defend himself, and it becomes fact. The fact is the workplace is safer now then 8 years ago.
Once again, you're missing the point.

1) It's not like a policy shift is going to result in immediate problems, which could take years or even decades to manifest.

2) I'd wager a lot of the drop in workplace injuries the past decade have to do with the continued outsourcing of higher-risk manufacturing jobs.

When people talk about workplace safety and Bush they're talking about the policy shifts that may influence the trends. Toxic substances being labeled as "not all that toxic", freezing new OSHA protections and repealing ergonimics standards for workplace injury.

Most of this isn't written into Bills by Congress but hidden in executive orders and by pressuring internal governmental organizations. There are no simple "stats" to quote as the issue is far more complicated.

This of course is also a partisan issue. Liberals believe more government regulation is necessary to protect workers, Conservatives believe the businesses should be left to regulate themselves.

Ultimately the best path is probably in the middle.

Do you know what Buckman means in Tibek-Himalayan? I can't say :hihi:

-spence

So what your saying SPENCE is that you have a hunch the work place will be less safe based on what you think Bush may or may not have done.

Now I get the point. Here I was dealing with facts.

And please, if you have any good Buckman jokes step too the front of the classroom and share with the rest of us.

And I didn't rip Obama in this thread. I just lack the confidence in him that others have. I hope I'm wrong

here is a joke- Buckman thinks Bush did a great job for the past 8 years... :rotfl:

here is a joke- Buckman thinks Bush did a great job for the past 8 years... :rotfl:

Never said that Nebe.
Once again if someone even dares think that Bush did somethings right, they are stupid and a joke to the those of you on the open and excepting left.

And if anyone questions Obama at all they are deamed too stupid to see what a great leader he might be.

God forbid anyone dare defend Bush for protecting us. FYI. Obama will keep the same policies. BECAUSE THEY WORK

This is what people and the media have done in regards to Bush. Throw out an untruth, say it often enough, Bush won't defend himself, and it becomes fact. The fact is the workplace is safer now then 8 years ago.

As far as Obama goes, I agree with you.

As I've stated many many times:

Correlation does not imply causation.

I would 100% agree that the workplace is safer now than it was 8 years ago. However, I strongly disagree that Bush had a single thing to do with it.

8 years is a long time when you consider advances in safety equipment and processes. Also, we live in a litigation-happy society now (thanks to groups like the ACLU) and I know that alone has motivated employers to improve their safety records. In addition, OSHA has tightened their regulations and actually enforces some of them now instead of turning a blind eye.

God forbid anyone dare defend Bush for protecting us. FYI. Obama will keep the same policies. BECAUSE THEY WORK
Taking the economy, unemployment rate, several reports that we're no safer from terrorists than we were 8 years ago, the last minute Executive Order taking science out of environmental policies and Bush's abysmal approval rating - I would have to disagree that any of Bush's policies have worked.

Actually;
I think this thread clearly started as he did do some things right.
in my mind:
1. He/his administration in the days immediately post-9/11 were nearly flawless
2. he went into Afganastan after Bin Laden and the Taliban BUT
this got mucked up, and we went into Iraq too. I think we and the world, would be exponentially better off if we had stayed 100% focused on the war on terror in Afgan. instead of %$%$%$%$ing around in Iraq. On larry king recently he openly admitted he has no clue IF we ever even got CLOSE to getting Bin laden....

Di he do every single thing wrong?
Nope.
Did he do more wrong then right, in my eyes a big YUP!

Actually;
I think this thread clearly started as he did do some things right.
in my mind:
1. He/his administration in the days immediately post-9/11 were nearly flawless
2. he went into Afganastan after Bin Laden and the Taliban BUT
this got mucked up, and we went into Iraq too. I think we and the world, would be exponentially better off if we had stayed 100% focused on the war on terror in Afgan. instead of %$%$%$%$ing around in Iraq. On larry king recently he openly admitted he has no clue IF we ever even got CLOSE to getting Bin laden....

Di he do every single thing wrong?
Nope.
Did he do more wrong then right, in my eyes a big YUP!

I agree Brian.
We don't know the direction Iraq would have taken if we had done things different. I guess we will never know. Hind sight is never the best way to look at a situation but it is the best way to never make the same mistakes again.....but we will.

I agree Brian.
We don't know the direction Iraq would have taken if we had done things different. I guess we will never know. Hind sight is never the best way to look at a situation but it is the best way to never make the same mistakes again.....but we will.
I suggest you read this.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Iraq/Iraq_dollar_vs_euro.html

on jan 17th, 2000 a euro was worth $1.01 cents. Today a euro is worth $1.32

We didnt go into Iraq to take their oil, we went in to make sure they sold it based on the dollar..

I have talked to my daughter and a friends daughter who are in college and they both voted for Obama. They told me that most kids in school believe the US goverment and Bush created the 9/11 mass murder of thousands. Now thats indicitive of what the left has created. Not what Bush did or didn't do. It became cool to bash Bush and jump on the Obama band wagon. We have a lot of very cool people here on Striper Talk.

Buckman - That's certainly a tough idea to swallow and I can't conceive of Bush being involved in it. However, if you look at the Project for A New American Century (PNAC) Mid-East "gameplan" where they state that the american public would never support their Mid-East policy UNLESS we were attcked and realize that many of the supporters of this plan were major admin. figures it is disconcerting. Did "we" do it..again I can't believe it.. but I sure think "we" took advantage of it with a purpose beyond "The War on Terror"!

It would make a great Oliver Stone movie. It's a sensitive subject that is best left alone.
I just hope we never forget the feeling we all had that day.

I shouldn't have said most kids. I meant many do.

I have talked to my daughter and a friends daughter who are in college and they both voted for Obama. They told me that most kids in school believe the US goverment and Bush created the 9/11 mass murder of thousands. Now thats indicitive of what the left has created. Not what Bush did or didn't do. It became cool to bash Bush and jump on the Obama band wagon. We have a lot of very cool people here on Striper Talk.

Buckman, with all completely due respect, a lot of your responses to objective, cited comments are just subjective opinions.

My roommate is a high school teacher, my girlfriend is finishing her undergrad and entering grad school and neither of them agree with anything you just stated above. While I have no doubt some people are ignorant enough to bite in to the conspiracies, "most kids in school" certainly do not believe the Bush administration orchestrated the 9/11 attacks.

Also, "the left" in no way has every stated that Bush created the events of 9/11. Political idiots and conspiracy theorists created that idea. People that believe that garbage shouldn't be allowed an opinion.

And one more thing, just because someone criticizes Bush, does not mean they are from "the left" or "liberals", otherwise, 2/3rds of the the Republicans in Congress must be from the left and liberals - half of which have been criticizing Bush for 4 years now.

There are no doubt people that jumped on the Obama bandwagon, and I have personally called those people out. On the other hand, the "cool people here on Stripertalk" that you're inferring have done the same thing have stated specifics as to why they like him, his policies and his approach to being President.

When someone spouts out some factless, uneducated or fabricated reason for why they like Obama over Bush, then you can accuse people here of "jumping on the wagon with the cool kids." I've been bashing Bush for well over 4 years now, before Obama was even around.

**Edit** I'm too slow in my responses. I respect your change of "most" to "many". There are definitely some real bozos out there.

I agree Brian.
We don't know the direction Iraq would have taken if we had done things different. I guess we will never know. Hind sight is never the best way to look at a situation but it is the best way to never make the same mistakes again.....but we will.

And for the record; I teach science at the college level and am in graduate school, so I spend a lot of time around college aged-kids

I don't think I know an undergrad who believes Bush was the mastermind of 9/11... and I'm a geology department, we are crunchier than most!

So what your saying SPENCE is that you have a hunch the work place will be less safe based on what you think Bush may or may not have done.

I think Bush is going too far in allowing the conditions for the workplace to be less safe because they're pandering to the interests of business rather than the people.

And facts without context are just meaningless numbers. The facts you quoted, in context of the discussion don't conclude much for reasons already stated.

-spence

I remember 9/11 like it was yesterday. In particular, I remember the "W" address to our nation from atop a smoking pile of rubble and ensuing response the US made. He seemd like a hero to me at the time.

How did he seem like a hero?
By standing there?
Yeah, real hero. I didn't see him pulling corpses out of rubble.
I didn't see him in there helping find missing people.

If thats your idea of a hero then we're all screwed.

How did he seem like a hero?
By standing there?
Yeah, real hero. I didn't see him pulling corpses out of rubble.
I didn't see him in there helping find missing people.

If thats your idea of a hero then we're all screwed.

The thread is about perception/sentiment and how a seemingly hi flier went to a seemingly low flier..that's how I'll remember him.

As for my "real" heroes, I'm an underdog groupie from way back...

Sorry, I was transcribing some ancient Korean poems in my head last night and the "utt" sound is phonetically the same as "uck" in that language. My bad...

But being able to fire someone isn't the kind of protection we're talking about. Yes, in general most workplaces are pretty safe but the credit should be given to the people who think like Ralph Nader (even though he's a kook) rather than Ronald Reagan. But under Bush the anti-government attitude sent regulations in the other direction. Granted, some conservatives think this was a good thing, who cares if Timmy's dad dies in the coal mine as long as the government doesn't get in the way.


I don't think you really understand why some are so fascinated by the man. 1) He's black 2) he's inspiring 3) he seems to be pretty smart 4) he's pragmatic 5) we're in the middle of a generational shift and it looks like the people actually bucked the system and chose someone who (on paper at least) might be just what we need to lead us into the next century.

Obama has trancended the traditional wedge issues and has the potential to really change the dialogue in this country...

...or he could be a complete disaster. But I figured I'd at least give him a chance before passing judgement, as I did with GWB.

-spence

Spence, I have some land to sell you... You seem to be satisfied with simple promises and nothing else. The wedge issues he has supposedly transcended are already biting him in the ass. Ask the gay community who thought they had their savior. Do you actually believe he will lead us into the next century when it is the year 2009? Are you living in a yurt or just eating mushrooms?
He is smart, the rest of your points are without merit.

Spence, I have some land to sell you... You seem to be satisfied with simple promises and nothing else. The wedge issues he has supposedly transcended are already biting him in the ass. Ask the gay community who thought they had their savior. Do you actually believe he will lead us into the next century when it is the year 2009? Are you living in a yurt or just eating mushrooms?
He is smart, the rest of your points are without merit.

I'm not an Obama zealot, and don't trust any politician to make good on their promises. What Obama does bring is a vision that the majority of America agrees with, and a sense of leadership that people seem to believe in. Bush 43 had the vision but little leadership, and we quickly came to understand that his vision was an election year stunt. I'm willing to give Obama a chance, as I stated above...

As for the gay issue, Obama clearly brings a new attitude towards these issues different than any previous US president. So they got their black t-shirts in a tizzy because he has a religious speaker who's not GLB friendy, big whoop. Personally I don't like what the man says, but it's clear Obama is trying to reach out.

Is it all calculated BS? Sure it is...but I'll give him some points for trying.

Where's the land?

-spence