Last Sale 7365.67 Previous Close 7465.95
Change -100.28 Open 7461.49
Change % -1.34% 1-Week Range 7850.41 - 7249.47
Previous Close 7465.95 1-Month Range 8405.87 - 7249.47
Today's Range 7249.47 - 7469.29 52 Week Range 7249.47 - 13136.70
Last Trade Time 02.20.09 5:40 PM EST YTD Change -5899.13

I wish it would. Any ideas? Alot of very educated guys on here. Help me out. IMO it's because it's a scam. You?

How fast to you expect things to change?
The financial marketplace is still a mess, Geithner may nationalize some of the banking system. Gold is over 1000 per oz
Pelisoi is still in Itally, Kerry is in Israel, Schwarzenegger can't get a balanced budget CA may declare bankruptcy , GM - Chrsyler have no plan, and Plugfest is over and you didn't go.

The market doesn't believe we have a solution

Ok, now you're just being stupid.

-spence

YEAH talk to me at DJI 6000 in 2 weeks.

No confidence is reflected in the marketplace

The problem is, we still have major national banks which are insolvent.

This is not Obama's fault.

I do think we should be very careful nationalizing any banks (i.e. let's not) and it's looking like the Obama Administration agrees.

This is a good thing.

-spence

Isn't majority ownership as much a nationalization?
Although this little tidbit from WSJ

The White House tried to knock down speculation that the government is preparing to nationalize several large U.S. banks, but some bankers complained that the Obama administration needs to act even more aggressively to shore up confidence in battered financial institutions.
Robert Gibbs, a White House spokesman, said Friday afternoon that the month-old Obama administration "continues to strongly believe that a privately held banking system is the correct way to go."
The comments reversed a broader decline by U.S. stocks that at one point pushed the Dow Jones Industrial Average close to 1997 levels. Still, the Dow finished down 100.28 points, or 1.3%, to 7365.67, a new low for the current bear market. Friday's decline left the Dow with its worst weekly drop in four months.

However, the market is still having doubts.

The government has obviously decided to let us stew for another weekend. All we really know is that we either are or are not going to be beneficiaries of knowing some details of the bank "restructuring" plan within a few days. In the meantime, the market will have to continue feeding on uncertainty.

And you weren't at PlugFest either

I'm not saying who's fault it is.(in this thread anyway)
I would think that when a trillion dollar bill is passed, it would have some sort of effect on how investors feel companies will benifit.This magnitude of money flowing into the economy should help. I think it has had a negative effect.

IMO the problem stems from the anticipation of a bill that would benifit the country and passing one that screws the country. I think investors realize that the bill that was passed, will do long term damage to the U.S. economy.

Ok, now you're just being stupid.

-spence

Educated guys?

My take on DJ. It's gambleing plain and simple. You give a guy your bucks to grow a business, he gives himself a hefty check and bonus because he thinks the money is his. And since the money is "his" now he will try to keep it all. Except for a piddly portion that he pays back to to his suckers to keep them quiet. Until the whole thing comes unwound, then he gets the Government to tax the suckers to pay back the money he "lost".

I\
IMO the problem stems from the anticipation of a bill that would benifit the country and passing one that screws the country. I think investors realize that the bill that was passed, will do long term damage to the U.S. economy.

I just believe people believe it will have no effect. I don't think most people think past tomorrow right now. Many of the working are just several paychecks or the lack there of from insolvency.

I just believe people believe it will have no effect. I don't think most people think past tomorrow right now. Many of the working are just several paychecks or the lack there of from insolvency.

Your right, I just feel the promise of a trillion dollars should have given it a bump at least. If this had been a true stimulas bill instead of a blueprint for bigger govornment, maybe it would have had a positive effect. The retired people ( and my 401k) needed something that would have worked.

My take on DJ. It's gambleing plain and simple. You give a guy your bucks to grow a business, he gives himself a hefty check and bonus because he thinks the money is his. And since the money is "his" now he will try to keep it all. Except for a piddly portion that he pays back to to his suckers to keep them quiet. Until the whole thing comes unwound, then he gets the Government to tax the suckers to pay back the money he "lost".

It's also where most people have there hopes for retirement deposited.

Your right, I just feel the promise of a trillion dollars should have given it a bump at least.

Please stop saying "the promise of a trillion dollars" and trying to making it even more extreme than it is.

Please stop saying "the promise of a trillion dollars" and trying to making it even more extreme than it is.

Nah, he's having a lot more fun trying to trip it up hoping it's a big failure. I'd be willing to wager he's accused Liberals of doing the exact same thing regarding the war in Iraq.

There hasn't been a rapid response in the markets because there are too many varibles that haven't been isolated. At the time Obama signed the bill into law the big story was about banks and the unknown as to what might happen.

Most economists believe that the recession isn't going to lift until best case end of this year and it could go deep into 2010. If that's the case I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect the Market to sound the all clear simply because Obama used a pen.

Geeze...

-spence

Your right. In fact the combined cost of the bailouts are well over a trillion dollars

And no, I pray it works. For the sake of future generations. Unfortunatly I'm a realist and I deal in substance.

It's also where most people have there hopes for retirement deposited.

my point exactly. These shysters have crushed dreams, ruined lives and educations, and have lived pretty high on the hog from the blood and sweat of their victims. Now that is all in shards, they want their victims to foot the bill and sadly they have to or the whole shebang goes up in flames. I had a 401k eviserated in the 80s, I salvaged what was left and invested else where, where I had and have a modicum of control. This last "adventure' would have ruined me otherwise. And may still yet.

Back to the question, the market hasn't responded because of fear and distrust. When the guys who run the investments start to behave responsibly and hell even legally, the investers will return. You can't fool all of the people all of the time. I pray it works, too, buckman. The people don't deserve this and right now they're scared, angry and mistrustful.

The problem is, we still have major national banks which are insolvent.

This is not Obama's fault.

-spence

Sure it is, the buck stops here remember.

Nah, he's having a lot more fun trying to trip it up hoping it's a big failure. I'd be willing to wager he's accused Liberals of doing the exact same thing regarding the war in Iraq.


That would be RIJIMMY

you dont read a word I post

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A new national poll indicates that nearly three out of four Americans are scared about the way things are going in the country today.

Seventy-three percent of those questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Monday say they're very or somewhat scared about the way things are going in the United States. That's six points higher than in an October poll.

Of course, October and November and December were the meltdown months when your hero was under his desk taking a nap...

Sure it is, the buck stops here remember.

God I wish it would.

Of course, October and November and December were the meltdown months when your hero was under his desk taking a nap...

I think we are at an 11 year low now. All that negative economy doom and gloom talk just might have backfired on Obama. To bad for anyone with a 401K. We need a real plan and we need it soon.

I hear after they nationalize Citigroup they are going cut the interest rates on credit cards to not more than 3% above prime. That will spurn consumer spending and free up money for households that carry balances.

When GREED and FEAR hit the high notes (It may be Soon), watch for a gradual "capitulation"...i:e: the average Joe throws in the towel in fear of losing more of what he already lost. THEN................
The market makers will spin the first "Good News" headline as marking the bottom of the market. They will raise the market several hundred points over a few weeks, enticing the uninformed into believing the "All Clear" has been signaled and you will begin throwing money back into the market in an attempt to gain what you had lost. At this point, the market makers will pull the rug out from under you by dropping the market several hundred points over a few days and will now have all of your money and your anger. Some will sell out and vow never again while others will be recycled into the same steps as before until the real bottom is formed. (That's when their are no more retail buyers (You) left).
Market makers from Wall Street have some of the most Brilliant Psychologist working in their firms. They know how you think, how you try to reason, and prey on that advantage.
Just my thoughts..
O.K. Back into my Cave.
P.S. It's not all doom and gloom as the patient investor who has that proverbial long term horizon will be O.K. as long as we are the U.S. of A. If that changes, all bets are off.

Of course, October and November and December were the meltdown months when your hero was under his desk taking a nap...

Bush is not my hero. But just so you know, its Congress's job to introduce leglislation and last I checked we had democrat congress for the last 2 years. What where they up to?

Bush is not my hero. But just so you know, its Congress's job to introduce leglislation and last I checked we had democrat congress for the last 2 years. What where they up to?

Waiting for Bush to leave, so they can spend money we don't have.

Can't wait for the speach tonight. My prediction the Dow drops 200 or more tomorrow.
Funny how a speach can effect it, but the promise of a trillion dollars takes a long time to effect it.

Let me wrap up the speach for you, "Bush's fault", we need to control the deficit, I will spend billions and billions.

I fell so much better that most of my money is invested in custom plugs and not some wacky retirement plan.

Waiting for Bush to leave, so they can spend money we don't have.

Can't wait for the speach tonight. My prediction the Dow drops 200 or more tomorrow.
Funny how a speach can effect it, but the promise of a trillion dollars takes a long time to effect it.

Let me wrap up the speach for you, "Bush's fault", we need to control the deficit, I will spend billions and billions.


It will be an interesting discussion, particularly with a nationalized financial market.

Can't wait for the speach tonight. My prediction the Dow drops 200 or more tomorrow.


I think the more important speech, for the market, will be how it reacts to Geitner's plan to be released tomorrow.

I think the more important speech, for the market, will be how it reacts to Geitner's plan to be released tomorrow.

I think your right. Didn't go over to good last time he spoke.

Don't think Turbo Tax will be an advertising sponsor for that hour. ;)

read the entire thread above and then read today's headline below. I've been telling you markets REACT to news. As Buckman stated, it has consistently reacted negatviely to Obamas stimulus and TARP and you guys give this long blah blah nonsense on why......well read below. You are full of crap. One announcement and the markets up


Stocks jump after Bernanke says recession may end

AP – Federal Reserve Board Chairman Ben Bernanke testifies on Capitol Hill in Washington, Tuesday, Feb. 24, … NEW YORK – Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke has given Wall Street a double dose of reassurance. Bernanke has told Congress the recession might end this year, and that regulators aren't planning to nationalize banks. The news alleviated some of investors' worries about the economy and the banking system, and lifted the Dow Jones industrial average and Standard & Poor's 500 index off their lowest levels since 1997.

I fear the speach tonight will kill any bounce from today. I hope they are rewriting it as we speak.

I fear the speach tonight will kill any bounce from today. I hope they are rewriting it as we speak.

Any bounce? I thought the market was going to tank 200 points today?

He speaks and the world markets will take a dive.
Investors are not convinced that anything we do will fix the market.
Lassiez faire won't make it happen. We are going to see nationalization, iMHO.

Sure has been quite from the left on this site. How much time do we give the boy genius before he completely destroys the economy.

Last Sale 6794.99 Previous Close 7062.93
Change -267.94 Open 7056.48
Change % -3.79% 1-Week Range 7441.02 - 7033.62
Previous Close 7062.93 1-Month Range 8405.87 - 7033.62
Today's Range 6792.29 - 7058.95 52 Week Range 7033.62 - 13136.70
Last Trade Time 3:17 PM EST YTD Change -6469.81

Maybe next time we propose a budget we don't contradict everything we proposed to do in the Stimulas bill.

Negative Vibes, gotta stop it with the negative Vibes.

Negative Vibes, gotta stop it with the negative Vibes.

He can't, it's all he has...

-spence

Dow 6,763.29 -299.64 -4.24%

Lowest in 12 years.

Trying to push all his changes into the first 6 weeks of his Presidency has not helped.

"Act in haste, repent at leisure."

He can't, it's all he has...

-spence

Give me something positive to latch on to. I'm begging ya

Give me something positive to latch on to. I'm begging ya
We're waiting for the GOP response of which there has been NONE!!!! NONE!!!

You have to give the floor to Limbaugh!!!

Dow 6,763.29 -299.64 -4.24%

Lowest in 12 years.

Yes, and all of it has been directly caused by a man that has been in office for 5 weeks or...

While the Dow has a large effect on people due to their investments, it is too emotionally driven at a time like this and I do not value it as representational of anything except how "people feel the economy is today."

With the use of down-to-the-second trades, the Dow has become more of a vehicle for Corporate Finance companies to create wealth when considering day-to-day changes.

The Fed decides not to cut interest rates, the market drops 200 points. The next day, the market "recovers" 250 points - read: the market is undervalued and people buy.

I sincerely feel bad for those that are close to, or in retirement and have a ton of money in the market. They are the ones most effected by this because they do not have the time to wait for recovery. However, in a merely selfish manner, I hope the market keeps tanking - because I'm young and the market falling does not financially affect me. The more it tanks, the more bang I'll get for the money I've been socking away into CDs for the last two years in anticipation of just this happening. When the Dow was over 11,000, my accountant thought I was crazy for not opening an IRA - I thought she was crazy for even making the suggestion. Everyone involved with the Market has been Livin' La Vida Loca - now people are feeling the "next morning hangover."

I think the market is extremely undervalued right now. Professional investors are bewildered as to what the short-term outlook is for the economy and as such, are Shorting stocks like mad. The average investor doesn't have a clue what's going on aside from what the news tells him/her.

I'm holding on to the lapbar and waiting for the ride to end. When it does, I hope I enter the market at about the point when it reaches bottom.

Last Sale 7365.67 Previous Close 7465.95
Change -100.28 Open 7461.49
Change % -1.34% 1-Week Range 7850.41 - 7249.47
Previous Close 7465.95 1-Month Range 8405.87 - 7249.47
Today's Range 7249.47 - 7469.29 52 Week Range 7249.47 - 13136.70
Last Trade Time 02.20.09 5:40 PM EST YTD Change -5899.13

I wish it would. Any ideas? Alot of very educated guys on here. Help me out. IMO it's because it's a scam. You?

I don't know, it depends on what you mean by educated.

I have enough common sense I think to take a guess and say that I doubt this stimulus package if it has gotten into gear yet will have done anything immediate to the stock market.
What are you looking for miracles?
Maybe have some patience and give the guy a chance.

I personally don't agree with all this bailout crap, I say let them stand on their own 2 feet like I've had to do all my life, if they need to file for reorganization bankruptcy, then so be it. Putting the country way into further debt seems like a huge mistake to me.

I believe the policies, stimulas bill, and the proposed budget are the cause for the Dow losing 3000 points, that's right 3000, since he took office. I also believe the actions of the House and Senate have sent a clear message to America. A message of Goverment help or fail. That's not the message Ameican's like.

I personally don't agree with all this bailout crap, I say let them stand on their own 2 feet like I've had to do all my life, if they need to file for reorganization bankruptcy, then so be it. Putting the country way into further debt seems like a huge mistake to me.

Agreed. Especially since AIG couldn't recover after the first few billion dollars they got and now they're being given more. The government has to pick their battles. Not everyone struggling should get a handout, only those with potential to recover.

My opinion is even more critical for the automotive industry. They are struggling because they have a business plan that has positioned themselves in a way that showed no outlook over the long term. Automotive companies have taken no initiative to create more fuel efficient vehicles and only do just enough to pass government-mandated standards. They have an archaic business plan and as such, positioned themselves for failure. They've also allowed the unions to rake them through the coals. It's no surprise to me that the one automotive manufacturer doing better than the rest has taken into consideration future markets and is also non-union.

The autos may have no plan but why can't I buy this 53 mpg Volvo in America? They won't even sell it here, because we don't like diesels? Crazy
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/09/11/volvo-drive-diesel-gets-53mpg-and-ford-says-i-can%E2%80%99t-have-one/

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2009/02/volvos-low-carb.html


C30: 60.3 mph and 104 g/km.
S40 and V50: 58.8 mpg and 107 g/km.
V70 and S80: 48.8 mpg and 129 g/km
XC60 and XC70: 39.2 mpg and 159 g/km.

I looked all over for a small diesel, did get a 2.8L Jeep, about .5L more than I really wanted.

I don't know, it depends on what you mean by educated.

Putting the country way into further debt seems like a huge mistake to me.

It just doesn't make sense. Let's get the economy back on it's feet first before we start passing bills that will put us into further debt and cause inflation down the road.
To follow the same path of spending what we didn't have in the first place, for whatever reasons, got us into this mess, how is it going to get us out?

We need stimulus based on concrete needs that can be started now.
Like infrastucter repair based on what really needs fixing, and there's alot of that.
Mass transit building with high speed mono rails.

People are afraid and we need something people can see to rally around to get back confidence now, not just things that are just ideas and are 10-15 years down the road before they come to fruition.

Ya, Green is good but till we get there we need oil and nuclear. These would create jobs within a few months. We will always need it as you can't run a military or even charge electric cars, all on wind or batteries.

Most of all we need something to rally the whole country around, FDR had WW2, not that that was good, Kennedy had space exploration, Regan brought back a feeling of patriotism.

Not that we shouldn't have different opinions, but "united we stand, divided we fall."

I believe the policies, stimulas bill, and the proposed budget are the cause for the Dow losing 3000 points, that's right 3000, since he took office. I also believe the actions of the House and Senate have sent a clear message to America. A message of Goverment help or fail. That's not the message Ameican's like.

Have you been drinking, are you an idiot or do you just not care about the facts?

The Dow has lost 1186 points since Obama took office. All things considered a terrible slide, but not as you would have us regard it.

Additionally, the makings for this slide were put into action years ago, the result of many complicated policies that will take years to sort out.

Wall Street isn't interested in your assumptions of policy interpretation , they're interested in making money, and the fundamentals are still bad. Until the policy, or a recovery independent of government action takes hold, the conditions for a lasting recovery won't be in place.

-spence

http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chdet=1236049169152&chddm=23851&q=INDEXDJX:.DJI&ntsp=0

Just to back you up Spence....
I have a feeling many theses will be written at Bryant, Bentley, Babson, Harvard Business etc.. in coming years on the boom and bust of the last few years...


Interesting read on the rest of the world's opinion of our ability to turn it around...
http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/02/markets/thebuzz/index.htm?postversion=2009030215

The autos may have no plan but why can't I buy this 53 mpg Volvo in America? They won't even sell it here, because we don't like diesels? Crazy
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2008/09/11/volvo-drive-diesel-gets-53mpg-and-ford-says-i-can%E2%80%99t-have-one/

It's because of a stigma put in place 20-30 years about about dirty diesel being horribly polluting - remember when the soot exhausted from Mach trucks was a big hot topic? Also, people don't realize even though they pay about 20% more for diesel, they get about that and more in fuel economy when compared to an equivalent unleaded.

Until the policy, or a recovery independent of government action takes hold, the conditions for a lasting recovery won't be in place.

-spence

Houston, we have a problem.

Spence, you should be in politics, every one of your post is about disagreeing, name calling and taking no position. Why don't you just tell us why you voted for Obama, and what policies he has put in place that you feel will benifit the country. I have been right about nearly every prediction on what would take place if a single party was given full control . You have been wrong on those same points. Want to try a couple more. End of two term limit for the President, Reparations

I care about the facts, I just made a mistake. .Kinda like Pelosi saying we lose 500 million jobs a month. You know, Spence, remember defending that.Your a forgiving guy

It's because of a stigma put in place 20-30 years about about dirty diesel being horribly polluting - remember when the soot exhausted from Mach trucks was a big hot topic? Also, people don't realize even though they pay about 20% more for diesel, they get about that and more in fuel economy when compared to an equivalent unleaded.

Not to mention that a diesel can last several hundred thousand miles more. Thus justifing the added initial cost. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation as to why diesel fuel is more then gas. Prior to 2003 it was cheaper.

It hilarious (and somewhat sad) to hear the mindless drones trying to blame a Pres. who has been in office 7 weeks for the collapse of the economy b/c "he's the Pres." while refusing to use the same logic and defending Pres. Bush for 9/11.

You get more gasoline from a barrel than diesel fuel, hence a lower price. When you include refining capacity for gasoline compared to #2 Fuel in the US it all makes sense. When you are making heating oil it takes away from the diesel capacity.

We will recover when Mainstream Media says we can. Chances are it will be close to midterm elections and it will be marketed as a result of the actions of those currently in office :rolleyes:

Give me something positive to latch on to. I'm begging ya


I was very excited to see all of the new proposed taxes that are being brought to the table...more more more government...wonder how long before we start hearing revolutionary propaganda.:eyes:

It hilarious (and somewhat sad) to hear the mindless drones trying to blame a Pres. who has been in office 7 weeks for the collapse of the economy b/c "he's the Pres." while refusing to use the same logic and defending Pres. Bush for 9/11.

If you took just a teeny second to bother to read the threads instead of your constant mantra of calling others who disagree with you "drones"you'd see that NO ONE said the collapse of the economy was Obamas fault, the point was that the stock market reacts NEGATIVELY to Obamas announcements of his plans. One could assume that the people whose sole purpose is to benefit from a market rise, would delight in action by the government ot "improve" things, no? I put up proof to counter those that say the market is reacting to the fundamentals. Bernanke made one lame announcement that the recession may be over by year end and the same day the market was up over 200 points as a result. The MArket reacts, so far it reacts negatively to Obama. Not a good sign.

Well, it just shows the market is silly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs

Not to mention that a diesel can last several hundred thousand miles more. Thus justifing the added initial cost. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation as to why diesel fuel is more then gas. Prior to 2003 it was cheaper.

I've read a few articles that include Fishparts reasoning but also with others. Now, I don't know nearly enough on how the supply of fuel works but this is what I've read.

Until several years ago, the average price of diesel fuel was usually lower than the average price of gasoline. In some winters when the demand for distillate heating oil was high, the price of diesel fuel rose above the gasoline price. Since September 2004, the price of diesel fuel has been generally higher than the price of regular gasoline all year round for several reasons. Worldwide demand for diesel fuel and other distillate fuel oils has been increasing steadily, with strong demand in China, Europe, and the U.S., putting more pressure on the tight global refining capacity. In the U.S., the transition to low-sulfur diesel fuel has affected diesel fuel production and distribution costs. Also, the Federal excise tax on diesel fuel is 6 cents higher per gallon (24.4 cents per gallon) than the tax on gasoline.http://seekingalpha.com/article/68468-why-is-diesel-more-expensive-than-regular-gas


And my personal favorite:In the end, the best explanation may be, as William of Ockham believed, the simplest one. Perhaps diesel prices have gone high and stayed there because that's what the market will bear. In that older article, we asked a petroleum industry insider why oil companies were charging so much for diesel. The insider's telling reply:

"Because we can."http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/2008/04/why-is-diesel-more-expensive-than-gas.html

Thanks John, good info.

low-sulfur distillate
road tax

delivery, I can't believe that.

and marketing, gas cars don't last as long

it's an endless list, but go to any other country and it's 95 pct diesel
compared to 10 pct gas but freight is 90 pct diesel

So in the end every product moved by freight cost us all more.
Simple plan here; eliminate the tax and it will lower goods for everyone.

I'm with that one.

So we have reduce taxes for sole proprietorship's handled as individual income

Reduce the diesel road tax to reduce cost of goods shipped.

I'm with that one.

So we have reduce taxes for sole proprietorship's handled as individual income

Reduce the diesel road tax to reduce cost of goods shipped.

They will never go for it. :deadhorse: Makes to much sense and goes against their motto, "government good, capitalism bad "

Uhoh

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123604419092515347.html?mod=igoogle_wsj_gadgv1&

I can see the posts now

At the moment, the charts seem ready and willing to deliver another leg on the downside. This can be best seen on weekly charts, in which the "hump" formed between November and here serves as an umbrella, and the market is dripping off the right side. In terms of the SP-500, this down leg could easily fall to around 600, although 450 is certainly not out of the question. A reasonable target for the Dow is 5800.


Thats gonna hurt

another whacko that thinks Obama is f'ing the whole country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1jBlLZv7ug

Uhoh

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123604419092515347.html?mod=igoogle_wsj_gadgv1&

I can see the posts now

brilliant article.

Don't let the results of his actions, the Dow , or what those crazy right wingers say, be the leading factors in judging what Obama's vision of America will result in. Have a little hope.

Change is a comin and you can't stop it. So bend over and take it like a liberal.

Change is a comin and you can't stop it. So bend over and take it like a liberal.

Or a conservative because we're all going to take it up the you know what.

If you took just a teeny second to bother to read the threads instead of your constant mantra of calling others who disagree with you "drones"you'd see that NO ONE said the collapse of the economy was Obamas fault, the point was that the stock market reacts NEGATIVELY to Obamas announcements of his plans. One could assume that the people whose sole purpose is to benefit from a market rise, would delight in action by the government ot "improve" things, no? I put up proof to counter those that say the market is reacting to the fundamentals. Bernanke made one lame announcement that the recession may be over by year end and the same day the market was up over 200 points as a result. The MArket reacts, so far it reacts negatively to Obama. Not a good sign.

Theres more mindless droning on in this forum about how Obamas solely responsible for the decline in the markets than I have seen anywhere else. The theory that with whole world in a deep recession, one man words are responsible for moving the market each day is laughable. You have the world's largest insurer needing to borrow more $bill b/c their demise would wreck havoc on the insur. industry, the world's biggest corp. with a stock price at decades low and the world's largest car companies all loosing their shirts, yet is only Obama's fault is laughable. Maybe he should tell us to not worry and if we want to do something for out country, we should continue shopping.

I just think Obamas plan that he is force feeding ( with the politics of fear) down the throats af the American people is not helping. I get the feeling that he thinks he knows better then everyone what America should be like and we should just sit back and let him handle it. Worse, we should suck it up and take one for the team because he's right. I fear the direction this country is heading.
No one should be complacent and just assume they know what they are doing.
Every indicater proves otherwise.

Amazing to me how we are supposed to give him the benfit of the doubt. Isn't that what we did in regards to Iraq and Bush.

Theres more mindless droning on in this forum about how Obamas solely responsible for the decline in the markets than I have seen anywhere else. The theory that with whole world in a deep recession, one man words are responsible for moving the market each day is laughable. You have the world's largest insurer needing to borrow more $bill b/c their demise would wreck havoc on the insur. industry, the world's biggest corp. with a stock price at decades low and the world's largest car companies all loosing their shirts, yet is only Obama's fault is laughable. Maybe he should tell us to not worry and if we want to do something for out country, we should continue shopping.

a LOT of brillaint people are agreeing with the mindless droning. I dont expect you will believe us, after all we have a law professor and junior senator leading the worlds economy. So above, I included the news article that the marked moved UP over 200 points when Bernanke spoke, yet you thinks it laughable that the presidents plans DONT move the market? WHo is mindless?

BTW, Paul, how do you like all the earmarks in the new budget? I guess its just another promise broken in the last month.

a LOT of brillaint people are agreeing with the mindless droning. I dont expect you will believe us, after all we have a law professor and junior senator leading the worlds economy. BTW, Paul, how do you like all the earmarks in the new budget? I guess its just another promise broken in the last month.

All the ear marks are Bush's fault. That's their story, I'm not kidding

You're right -
The majority leader dismissed a reporter's question on whether the $410 billion spending bill for the rest of this year is becoming an "embarrassment" to Obama, and reiterated Obama's argument that the package is "last year's business."

Durrrr, as a mindless drone, makes sense to me durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

You're right -
The majority leader dismissed a reporter's question on whether the $410 billion spending bill for the rest of this year is becoming an "embarrassment" to Obama, and reiterated Obama's argument that the package is "last year's business."

Durrrr, as a mindless drone, makes sense to me durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

NO THAT IS WASHINGTON AS USUAL, NO CHANGE

So what did he say today that caused the market to go up? and if it goes down this afternoon, is it b/c he said something during the morning? And the market movement has nothing to do w/the unemployement report coming out (for example)? Isn't the movement of the market a combination of x000s of things including whether you and I buy stock this afternoon.

I like that the earmarks are much less than past admins. but they need to be eliminated. An aquarium in KY is a good thing and promotes employment and tourism, etc. but I shouldn't have to pay for it.

So what did he say today that caused the market to go up? and if it goes down this afternoon, is it b/c he said something during the morning? And the market movement has nothing to do w/the unemployement report coming out (for example)? Isn't the movement of the market a combination of x000s of things including whether you and I buy stock this afternoon.

I like that the earmarks are much less than past admins. but they need to be eliminated. An aquarium in KY is a good thing and promotes employment and tourism, etc. but I shouldn't have to pay for it.

It's not what he say's, it's the moves that he and Pelosi have made, they are not helping the recovery, they are hurting it. I don't blame Obama for the depression we are in. I do blame him for pushing a socialist agenda at a time when we can least afford it.

He said NO earmarks. He's a lier

Total estimated earnings for 2009 for every worker in US $8 trillion

Estimated Fed budget 3.6 Trillion or 45% of TOTAL EARNINGS no wonder the Porkulus isn't working.......... Once we pay State and Local taxes there won't be enough left to buy groceries.....

I mentioned this in another post. The Market's daily movement is a horrible gauge when judging anything. Daily moves are so emotionally driven, it's pathetic. Things like GDP, Consumer Spending and the such are better markers, just that we don't get to the second updates on those everyday.

People are making tons of money on the market right now. The issue is that conventional wisdom of buy and hold is not beneficial at the moment. People are shorting stocks and buy/selling in the same day or within 2 days. I think the Market is horribly undervalued. GE under $10, Intel under $15, J&J under $50.

Like I said in my other post, I have a lot of time until retirement. The market is already undervalued and I hope people continue to be emotional about it and allow the market to dip below 6000. My accountant gave me a hard time for not investing in an IRA 2 years ago and I told her back then that there was no way in hell I was investing in that market. The warning signs of the current market have been available for some time now, people losing their shirts just weren't paying attention or researching the right areas.

It's not what he say's, it's the moves that he and Pelosi have made, they are not helping the recovery, they are hurting it. I don't blame Obama for the depression we are in. I do blame him for pushing a socialist agenda at a time when we can least afford it.

He said NO earmarks. He's a lier

If you're talking about the budget, good luck getting Congress to pass anything without earmarks. Both sides of the aisle refuse to pass anything unless they get something out of it. Obama has pleaded with Congress to minimize the earmarks.

Then you get comments like this: "House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer declared Tuesday that Congress, not President Obama, will decide whether to put more limits on earmarks in upcoming spending bills." -CNN

If you're talking about the budget, good luck getting Congress to pass anything without earmarks. Both sides of the aisle refuse to pass anything unless they get something out of it. Obama has pleaded with Congress to minimize the earmarks.

Then you get comments like this: "House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer declared Tuesday that Congress, not President Obama, will decide whether to put more limits on earmarks in upcoming spending bills." -CNN

Well then, now will be the time to use the promised line item veto.

I mentioned this in another post. The Market's daily movement is a horrible gauge when judging anything. Daily moves are so emotionally driven, it's pathetic. Things like GDP, Consumer Spending and the such are better markers, just that we don't get to the second updates on those everyday.

People are making tons of money on the market right now. The issue is that conventional wisdom of buy and hold is not beneficial at the moment. People are shorting stocks and buy/selling in the same day or within 2 days. I think the Market is horribly undervalued. GE under $10, Intel under $15, J&J under $50.

Like I said in my other post, I have a lot of time until retirement. The market is already undervalued and I hope people continue to be emotional about it and allow the market to dip below 6000. My accountant gave me a hard time for not investing in an IRA 2 years ago and I told her back then that there was no way in hell I was investing in that market. The warning signs of the current market have been available for some time now, people losing their shirts just weren't paying attention or researching the right areas.

Most peoples savings are tied up in the stock market, retirement is one thing but remember that states and feds hopped on the 529 bandwagon and a lot of kids education money is tied up in the market. Also, many companies budget to the stock market as a benchmark. Stock NAVs drive a lot of revenue for investment products for advisors and investment managers (not the evil people) as a result of market declines, many firms will need to further cut employees in order to meet their budgets. There are many. many. many mutual fund companies that employee hundreds of thousands of people in customre service, IT and other areas. Stock prices also drive the net worth of a company and gives them the equity to borrow. Dont underestimate the impact of the stock market. For many, it is the primary source of savings.

A couple of things: Since the federal budget year starts on 10/ 1, the "current" budget is in fact from the last congress. It's interesting to note that many on both sides of the aisle are calling for the admin. to not sign this budget because of earmarks. The problem is that if the budget is rejected and it goes back to congress the fed. government will not have funds available to keep the govenment running unless there is a tempory funding measure passed. While some may say it's a good thing ...realistically it is not. Line item veto seems like a solution but congress still has to be on board.
Secondly, while everyone is wondering why the stimulus pkg. is having no effect, the $$ in fact is just becoming available. In the housing industry, we're just seeing the "grearing up" for mortgage foreclosure relief, etc. There was a good program on the evening news about construction industry hires in anticipation of the release of infrastructure work, etc. While I'm not a big fan of bailouts to mismanaged companies, I do think the stimulus bill will have a positive impact once "shovel ready" projects start .

Sw - we're wondering why the "promise" of the stimulus bill is not impacting the stock market in a positive way. For example, if a company has a press release that they may have a breakthrough new product, the stock usually goes up quickly. even though there is no product ready for market or no guarantee the product will sell. You would think that the stimulus plan would have a similar impact however I believe investors are viewing this as negative news.

And who was is in control of the Congress in 08? And who will sign the Bill?

RIJ - I tend to agree with folks that feel the market is not the best indicator due to the volatile nature but I am by no means an expert. A good piece on the tube the other day about how testoserone levels of test subjects rose sharply during market trading..I think the assumption was women make better long term decisions men no so good in long term planning.
Buck - I think the congressional mix was very close and the earmark's are not restricted to one party. I agree; don't sign the budget..go for a quick fix to keep the gov. in business and rework the 09 budget.

Your right sw, the earmarks where 40/60 split. Vote them all out next chance we get.

I was wrong, the stimulas bill has had an effect;
Last Sale 6470.67 Previous Close 6594.44
Change -123.77 Open 6595.16
Change % -1.88% 1-Week Range 7195.46 - 6544.10
Previous Close 6594.44 1-Month Range 8315.07 - 6544.10
Today's Range 6470.03 - 6755.17 52 Week Range 6544.10 - 13136.70
Last Trade Time 3:26 PM EST YTD Change -5992.53

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123612515982323801.html

Brilliant Article. ;-)

I felt like he knew me.:mad:

He's honest too"There is much to dislike about President Obama's approach to the financial crisis"

I like a guy that can poke fun at himself. Probably a good thing to remember that despite political differences, if we were all thrown together... slamming a few bass... or slamming down a few brews all this political stuff would be behind us. Of course I did just make the final pmt. on my boat slip this AM...so I'm feeling a little conservative $$$!!!

I like a guy that can poke fun at himself. Probably a good thing to remember that despite political differences, if we were all thrown together... slamming a few bass... or slamming down a few brews all this political stuff would be behind us. Of course I did just make the final pmt. on my boat slip this AM...so I'm feeling a little conservative $$$!!!

This is the part that I like about this forum. I feel that every single person in here, regardless of what we've disagreed about, I could go out and have a couple beers with like none of the conversations took place.

This is the place for disagreements and petty bickering, but outside this forum I respect everyone as a fellow fisherman and peer.

Sw - we're wondering why the "promise" of the stimulus bill is not impacting the stock market in a positive way. For example, if a company has a press release that they may have a breakthrough new product, the stock usually goes up quickly. even though there is no product ready for market or no guarantee the product will sell. You would think that the stimulus plan would have a similar impact however I believe investors are viewing this as negative news.
There are a good number of reasons for the stock ups and downs. Things like bad jobs reports, GM's problems or the banking issues are not something Obama can fix with the swipe of a pen, and yet they're having a tremendous impact on Wall Street.

What's pretty funny is that under our last President, leader of the Republican party mind you, the stock market was also tanking.

Many expect the economy and job market to continue to sour, best case showing signs of recovery early next year.

And yet somehow people can attribute this negativity to Obama's radical idiology, not more than a few months after the general public elected him?

This simply doesn't compute.

So the Republicans (or their bots on this site) don't have any suggestions on how to fix things, previous Republican attempts to remedy also fell flat, so instead we'll post daily updated to the Dow Jones in an attempt to...what again?

It's about as mindless as the pacifist Iraq body count tickers online during the early phases of the War.

-spence

I think you nailed it Spence "Obama's radical idiology"

I think you nailed it Spence "Obama's radical idiology"

Sorry, I forgot my quotes :lasso:

-spence

Where's my daily dose of doom and gloom from the board economic pessamist?

Markets had a good week, Citi and BofA both talking about profitiability, GM declaring it doesn't need billions in government loans...

I would have thought you'd be all over this as cheerleader in chief of conservative positive spirit.

MARKETS WILL GROW!

-spence

spence your missing the point. I have posted exact quotes from the press that the market DID tank when Bush spoke, the point of this thread was that when Obama speaks or communicates policy, the market has reacted negatively. Every single time!
this week Obama and Geithnher KEPT THEIR MOUTHS SHUT and lo and behold, what happened? The markets have been up!!!!

BHO has been spreading the economy fear factor since starting in office.

A few days ago he was saying the international economy is in shambles
and we might have to help bail it out too.

Now that the market has gone up for a few days,
he says the economy is not as bad as he thought.

Makes you wonder. :huh:

Where's my daily dose of doom and gloom from the board economic pessamist?

Markets had a good week, Citi and BofA both talking about profitiability, GM declaring it doesn't need billions in government loans...

I would have thought you'd be all over this as cheerleader in chief of conservative positive spirit.

MARKETS WILL GROW!

-spence

Are the markets up due to the Stimulus? I've heard that the effect of the Stimulus would not begin to take effect till later this year, or later than that. Is the uptick, if it continues this early, a vindication of those who believe that the MARKETS WILL GROW without massive intervention?

Where's my daily dose of doom and gloom from the board economic pessamist?

Markets had a good week, Citi and BofA both talking about profitiability, GM declaring it doesn't need billions in government loans...

I would have thought you'd be all over this as cheerleader in chief of conservative positive spirit.

MARKETS WILL GROW!

-spence

He inherited the Bush rebound.

It's pretty hard to loose money when your given a few billion to play with.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

He inherited the Bush rebound.

Dead cat bounce. :huh:

Time will tell.

So I guess based on the original premise of this post, the market is now thrilled w/Obama's stimulas plan. :laugha:

Geithner spoke today and the market is up!

I'll post for buckman to save him time:

"Bush's initial bailout is finally paying off."

There, him a few clicks.

Geithner spoke today and the market is up!


Was he giving his resignation speech?

I'll post for buckman to save him time:

"Bush's initial bailout is finally paying off."

There, him a few clicks.

no, BM is talking market reaction and Im sure he'll admit its a direct result of Geithner this time, although no liberals ever admited the corellation with the drops previously.

Market up nearly 500 points.

-spence

Market up nearly 500 points.

-spence

good to see, but it is only one facet of many forces.

the fundamentals of our economy are still broken. Jobs are still being exported overseas and housing prices are still faltering.

good to see, but it is only one facet of many forces.

the fundamentals of our economy are still broken. Jobs are still being exported overseas and housing prices are still faltering.

Agreed. Just like the days the market generally went up a little bit after a massive 300+ points down day, I'm willing to bet investors will be cashing in tomorrow or the next day and we'll have another 100+ point down day.

But, the market is impossible to predict; I'm just shooting from the hip and guessing.

Ther was some other good news today. Home sales up 5% largest increase in 6 years. Keep your fingers crossed. Maybe the distraction of the AIG bonuses worked.

There are some troubling aspects to be aware of. For one thing I've never trusted market moves that are obvious responses to specific news. And this advance, deserving as it probably was, was emphatically in direct response to something that has been in short supply lately--good news. Good news has a tendency to attract too high a proportion of suckers.
Secondly, a flashy advance of this kind goes hand-in-hand with dramatically increasing volume. Today, volume was actually down in the Dow's 497 point advance. It was down on the advances in the SP-500 and NYSE Index. It was down only a little for the Nasdaq Brothers, but it was down just the same.

Elevator to 7400 please

Agreed. Just like the days the market generally went up a little bit after a massive 300+ points down day, I'm willing to bet investors will be cashing in tomorrow or the next day and we'll have another 100+ point down day.

But, the market is impossible to predict; I'm just shooting from the hip and guessing.

Or I could be 100% correct.

7,660.21 -115.65 / -1.49%

The rest of the downward trend will be tomorrow after the speech.

Elevator going down to 7400

This was a distinctly negative day. All eight Important Averages were down (averaging, as I said above, -2.52%). All 16 Breadth Groupings were Super-Decisively Negative.
Today's Dominant PV Relationship was PDVD (1897 stocks), which is the thematic relationship of falling markets. They are just being themselves.
On a five-day basis, the bullish PUVU relationship has been giving ground for the last seven days, but it remains Dominant over the other relationships so far. However, it is holding on by a thread, with the bearish PUVD relationship breathing down its neck on a five-day basis.

The stimulus isn't having any effect, but the $1.2 Million Mansfield is getting from it will save at least 20 teacher jobs.

My roommate who is a music teacher in Mansfield went from a guaranteed layoff to now a guaranteed job next year.

Too bad the government didn't take the Buckman approach and do nothing. Then we'd see the benefits of inaction - over-crowded classrooms, more "out of the school" classes which carry little educational value, significantly decreased after school programs. Those are all the consequences the Mansfield School admin has declared they would have to do if they lost all the teachers they were initially expecting to be without.

does he shoot golf? I think I hit him at wading river a few years ago

does he shoot golf? I think I hit him at wading river a few years ago

I don't think he even knows what a golf club looks like. Did the guy you hit look like a short Italian with a mustache?

No. are medium weight clean shaven curly haired individual who said he was the music director

The stimulus isn't having any effect, but the $1.2 Million Mansfield is getting from it will save at least 20 teacher jobs.

My roommate who is a music teacher in Mansfield went from a guaranteed layoff to now a guaranteed job next year.

Too bad the government didn't take the Buckman approach and do nothing. Then we'd see the benefits of inaction - over-crowded classrooms, more "out of the school" classes which carry little educational value, significantly decreased after school programs. Those are all the consequences the Mansfield School admin has declared they would have to do if they lost all the teachers they were initially expecting to be without.

So you actually believe the threats made by towns when budgets aren't where they'd like them to be? Threatening crowded classrooms and decreased programs for kids are ways to stir up support so towns can get money. No one wants to hear that kids are going to have to pay the price. Do you know where the $1.2 million is coming from?

So you actually believe the threats made by towns when budgets aren't where they'd like them to be? Threatening crowded classrooms and decreased programs for kids are ways to stir up support so towns can get money. No one wants to hear that kids are going to have to pay the price. Do you know where the $1.2 million is coming from?

Not threats. It's inside information presented to him personally by a trusted administrator. This info wasn't some public release made by the school. In a formal sense, the School Administration has been a bit mum as to what the actual consequences would be. Very little information has been presented to the town aside from the fact that the school is facing a $4million deficit. The town has tried to find money for the schools but you can't get water from stone.

Aside from this year, I've been involved with the Mansfield School System since I got out of high school. I've seen the progression of cuts to departments, the progressive down scaling of support for the arts departments and decreased programs after school for students. This also isn't a matter of the budgets that "aren't where they'd like them to be." Some of the deficit is caused by the state providing significantly less to the town for the 2009-2010 school year even though the freshman class is over 100 students larger than the graduating class.

The $1.2 million is coming from the stimulus package - trickled down after being given to the state as allocated for education.

Not threats. It's inside information presented to him personally by a trusted administrator. This info wasn't some public release made by the school. In a formal sense, the School Administration has been a bit mum as to what the actual consequences would be. Very little information has been presented to the town aside from the fact that the school is facing a $4million deficit. The town has tried to find money for the schools but you can't get water from stone.

Aside from this year, I've been involved with the Mansfield School System since I got out of high school. I've seen the progression of cuts to departments, the progressive down scaling of support for the arts departments and decreased programs after school for students. This also isn't a matter of the budgets that "aren't where they'd like them to be." Some of the deficit is caused by the state providing significantly less to the town for the 2009-2010 school year even though the freshman class is over 100 students larger than the graduating class.

The $1.2 million is coming from the stimulus package - trickled down after being given to the state as allocated for education.

What happens when the $1.2 million is spent?

The $1.2 million is coming from taxpayers, isn't it? How can Mansfield be in such a hole when other towns with fewer resources are in decent shape? I thought Mansfield did well with all the taxes generated from all the businesses in town.

The $1.2 million is coming from taxpayers, isn't it? How can Mansfield be in such a hole when other towns with fewer resources are in decent shape? I thought Mansfield did well with all the taxes generated from all the businesses in town.

It does and this is an issue I've brought up on a few occasions. I think a major problem is that the town has gotten so accustomed to have the extra money that with the current short income and decrease of state funding, they don't know what to do. Think of the investment banker who was making millions and now *only* makes $300k. They've grown so used to have all that income they now won't be able to send their kids to a $30k/year private school, will have to fire their private driver and find a cheaper nanny.

My understanding is that administrators and government workers are paid more in Mansfield than in many of the area towns. It's pathetic and has been pissing me off for some time.

They "sold" Mansfield Crossing to the town by trying to boast how it will bring $1.2Million in additional revenue to the town. Yet, they hired something like 4 more firefighters and at least a half dozen cops and used the added coverage needed for Mansfield Crossing as the excuse. 10 jobs starting around $40k/year = $400,000. That's a third of the supposed increased town income and that doesn't begin to take benefits and pension into consideration.

I had been saying that since day one, but D'Agostino and Co. refuse to say no to developers in the town. Fortunately, he's gone after this year.

The stimulus isn't having any effect, but the $1.2 Million Mansfield is getting from it will save at least 20 teacher jobs.

My roommate who is a music teacher in Mansfield went from a guaranteed layoff to now a guaranteed job next year.

Too bad the government didn't take the Buckman approach and do nothing. Then we'd see the benefits of inaction - over-crowded classrooms, more "out of the school" classes which carry little educational value, significantly decreased after school programs. Those are all the consequences the Mansfield School admin has declared they would have to do if they lost all the teachers they were initially expecting to be without.

So the tax payers bail out teachers jobs and everythings right in your world. What happens next year? I have heard layoff talks at the schools for 25 years. We didn't need a trillion dollar bailout to save a music teacher.

The $1.2 million is coming from taxpayers, isn't it? How can Mansfield be in such a hole when other towns with fewer resources are in decent shape? I thought Mansfield did well with all the taxes generated from all the businesses in town.

Mansfield is fine. Every town talks layoffs at this time of year. The schools are still among the best. $1.2 million is the amount talked about almost every year for the past 5 years.. They propose their wish list in the budget and then they come back to reality and cut it down.

I agree with buckman, you hear this layoff discussion every year and the pink slips go out until the town gets its budget together

Mansfield is fine. Every town talks layoffs at this time of year. The schools are still among the best. $1.2 million is the amount talked about almost every year for the past 5 years.. They propose their wish list in the budget and then they come back to reality and cut it down.

That was my original point, Buckman. It's a tactic by the town to get more money by talking about how the kids will suffer if they don't get the money they "need". My sister in law is a teacher in Mansfield and my niece and nephew both go to school there. The schools will be fine with or without the stimulus money. Mansfield is the type of community that would find a way to get money that is really needed for the schools. The doom and gloom approach is just more effective because it preys upon peoples fears.

You guys have to be kidding me? This wasn't some BS spouted out by the school so the town gives them more money. There was a $4Million deficit. Not the "$1.2million we hear about every year."

Do you guys even read all the posts before making a comment or just the posts of people who agree with you?

Since you chose not to read it the first time, I'll copy/paste it for you.

Not threats. It's inside information presented to him personally by a trusted administrator. This info wasn't some public release made by the school. In a formal sense, the School Administration has been a bit mum as to what the actual consequences would be. Very little information has been presented to the town aside from the fact that the school is facing a $4million deficit.



We didn't need a trillion dollar bailout to save a music teacher
You're right we don't. But just about any English, Science, History or Math teacher that has been at the schools for 2 years or less is likely to lose their job.

Let's bring this topic of "the schools are just bluffing like they always do" back up again in June when the Administration makes the announcement about who's getting pink slipped.

With people being handed pink slips across the entire job market, I fail to see how you can be so disillusioned to think the school system is any different.

It's funny, if it involves the national economy, then everything is doom-and-gloom. Yet somehow Mansfield has avoided all these economic troubles.

That was my original point, Buckman. It's a tactic by the town to get more money by talking about how the kids will suffer if they don't get the money they "need". My sister in law is a teacher in Mansfield and my niece and nephew both go to school there. The schools will be fine with or without the stimulus money. Mansfield is the type of community that would find a way to get money that is really needed for the schools. The doom and gloom approach is just more effective because it preys upon peoples fears.

It's easy for someone who doesn't even live in the town to say. Or buckman who is in no way involved with the schools aside from having a kid that goes to them.

Like I said, aside from this past year, I've been working at the school for almost 7 years. That allots me information that isn't PR crap given to the residents. We'll find out in June what the results will be; that is when the towns are contractually obligated to make all announcements of lay-offs.

Johnny, I'm not doubting your source, but the figure of $4 million seems off the mark. How does a town like Mansfield get that far in the hole? Even with overpaid town employees I find it hard to believe it could be that bad. They may have to make some cuts, but I doubt it will be nearly what you think it will be. My sister in law is in the less than 2 years category and she's not worried about her job.

If you worked for the schools for 7 years then you know what is announced for layoffs and what really happens are two different things, right?

Johnny, I'm not doubting your source, but the figure of $4 million seems off the mark. How does a town like Mansfield get that far in the hole? Even with overpaid town employees I find it hard to believe it could be that bad. They may have to make some cuts, but I doubt it will be nearly what you think it will be. My sister in law is in the less than 2 years category and she's not worried about her job.

If you worked for the schools for 7 years then you know what is announced for layoffs and what really happens are two different things, right?

Absolutely. Every year there is the possibility of program cuts. It's mentioned that this program and that program aren't going to be funded, but things have never been to the extent they are now.

Like I said, we'll all see in 3 months.

Also, does your sister teach at the high school or middle school?

It's easy for someone who doesn't even live in the town to say. Or buckman who is in no way involved with the schools aside from having a kid that goes to them.

Like I said, aside from this past year, I've been working at the school for almost 7 years. That allots me information that isn't PR crap given to the residents. We'll find out in June what the results will be; that is when the towns are contractually obligated to make all announcements of lay-offs.

Johnnyd. I don't want to sound like a wise ass but.....Are you arguing about school $$$ on my dime?

Johnnyd. I don't want to sound like a wise ass but.....Are you arguing about school $$$ on my dime?

That's the frustrating thing about taxes. You have to pay them but have little to say about what they go to. I don't think you sound like a wise ass at all.

I pay taxes to the town too my friend.

If you don't like the way the town spends money, I look forward to hearing you voice your displeasure at the next town meeting where it really counts, as opposed to on a fishing forum. I'm sure there is a significant amount of items about how wasteful the town is that we agree with.

That's the frustrating thing about taxes. You have to pay them but have little to say about what they go to. I don't think you sound like a wise ass at all.

I pay taxes to the town too my friend.

If you don't like the way the town spends money, I look forward to hearing you voice your displeasure at the next town meeting where it really counts, as opposed to on a fishing forum. I'm sure there is a significant amount of items about how wasteful the town is that we agree with.

I'm pretty active in town politics. As much as time allows anyway.

FYI, it looks like we will be spending more litigation $$$ on that POS Town Manager.

I'm pretty active in town politics. As much as time allows anyway.

FYI, it looks like we will be spending more litigation $$$ on that POS Town Manager.

Yeah, I've heard that. I cannot wait until they drop the POS and the liability that comes with him. I still wish they'd release his review, but somehow he got that under lock and key. Guess he knows that any future employer that read it would know what kind of guy he really is.

Yeah, I've heard that. I cannot wait until they drop the POS and the liability that comes with him. I still wish they'd release his review, but somehow he got that under lock and key. Guess he knows that any future employer that read it would know what kind of guy he really is.

I don't know the dude but is he that bad of a prick?

I don't know the dude but is he that bad of a prick?

Pretty much. A large portion of the town has wanted him out for some time. But rumor is that there were some back door stuff going on and that's why he kept having his contract renewed. In the latest election, it looks like enough of his supporters had been ousted to get rid of the piece of crap. He's a huge liability to the town.

Not to mention he has the stereotypical face of an old school con-artist.

Pretty much. A large portion of the town has wanted him out for some time. But rumor is that there were some back door stuff going on and that's why he kept having his contract renewed. In the latest election, it looks like enough of his supporters had been ousted to get rid of the piece of crap. He's a huge liability to the town.

Not to mention he has the stereotypical face of an old school con-artist.

OK, I've watched some of the town meetings it didn't seem so bad.
I really can't comment on the back door stuff, I don't have enough history. But politics being all about influence and wink wink behind the back stuff

He's scum.

good enough for me, your more involved than I in that arena

The solution is simple, Ethics, Values, and Live within your means, whether a private citizen, business, city, state or country. If we can't afford it, we either find a way to live without it or less of it, or we utilize the wonder of Capitalism and make more money to pay for it. Increased taxes usually does not increase the revenue (usually decreases it). Makes about as much sense as charging your kids for meals and then having to increase their allowance to pay for it. The money slowly circles in an ever decreasing amount like a terd in the toilet.

PS. More government is just more terds spinning in that toilet.......

Increased taxes usually does not increase the revenue (usually decreases it)...
This is perhaps one of the biggest urban myths ever pounded into our heads by conservative pundits.

Reagan certainly did cut tax rates and increased revenues, but a lot of this was restructuring of the tax code that spurred international investment here at home. A single event but a good example.

But most of the tax calculations used to prove this point don't factor in the growth in population or business cycles (i.e. bubbles) that have a huge impact on tax revenues. Clinton raised taxes and when you look at it per capita the revenues went up dramatically.

If cutting taxes always led to increased revenues then I'd say we should do away with them completely and enjoy the infinite revenues that would bring forth.

-spence

Actually, I thought tax revenue did not increase for like 5 years after the tax cuts.

Clinton raised taxes and when you look at it per capita the revenues went up dramatically.-spence

Until enough of the corporations got tired of it, and many moved offshore. If we make it too expensive to conduct business here in the US, big money will almost always find a cheaper place to conduct it. The big money that doesn't becomes not so big money.

Not saying reduce all taxes, mainly don't raise the taxes on business, especially small and medium sized ones. Leaving them alone, or reducing their taxes will allow them to prosper and thus hire more employees, pay more to their employees, and when the company is doing great because of individuals, give them a "bonus".

Trying to say a business owner making over 250k a year, should pay close to 40% of his profits to the government is ridiculous. Let him keep most of that and maybe he can expand and grow his business. It all equals more money for everyone, including the government as each new employee, new store, or bait shop, will all pay taxes.

just my thoughts.

Until enough of the corporations got tired of it, and many moved offshore. If we make it too expensive to conduct business here in the US, big money will almost always find a cheaper place to conduct it.
But there are a lot of other factors that influence companies moving operations offshore. Manufacturing has looked towards labor often less than 10% of here in the USA, and also tried to move to Asia to shorten their supply chains. Many advanced jobs have moved offshrore to take advantage of a growing talent pool, or more recently, limitations in H1 Visas.

The point being, high corporate tax rates are not the showstopper here.

Not saying reduce all taxes, mainly don't raise the taxes on business, especially small and medium sized ones. Leaving them alone, or reducing their taxes will allow them to prosper and thus hire more employees, pay more to their employees, and when the company is doing great because of individuals, give them a "bonus".
This was the claim hammered home by McCain during the campaign, but the facts as I've seen them indicate the impact to small business under Obama's tax plan would be minimal.

That being said, I agree that small business is the foundation of our economy and shouldn't be taxed excessively.

-spence

This was the claim hammered home by McCain during the campaign, but the facts as I've seen them indicate the impact to small business under Obama's tax plan would be minimal.

-spence

Ahh, but you're only looking at the tax impact to the small business itself, what about the companies that do business with the small business? As their tax increases, they look for cheaper alternatives which potentially could drive business away.

But it is also possible that a significant drop from here could carry to new bear market lows. As of now the rally that began on March 10 remains a Sub-Intermediate bear market rally.
I notice that a surprising number of people are becoming unsure of just what constitutes a bear market rally. It is the tendency to overcomplicate in the face of uncertainty. To put it simply, a bear market rally is any rally that takes place within the confines of a primary bear market. It is not a well-defined formula carried down the mountain by Moses. Such rallies can be especially dangerous because of their tendency to stimulate relief and false confidence.
The most destructive bear market rally topped in 1937. Investors had become confident and optimistic about the recovery from the bear market lows of the early 30s. The drop from the 1937 peak hit bottom about 2 ½ quarters later, having peeled off 46%. It became known as the 1937 crash, in which more astute investors were led to the gallows than had been slaughtered in the 1929 crash itself.
There is no reason to think this is what we face now, but the importance of the bounce rally has definitely led to a certain amount of euphoria. Although it may not be good for the blood pressure, it is often healthy to run a little scared.

wow, some of you guys should think about starting a blog.

Ahh, but you're only looking at the tax impact to the small business itself, what about the companies that do business with the small business? As their tax increases, they look for cheaper alternatives which potentially could drive business away.
As I said before, taxes are just one element of the equation. There are many other things that influence why business could be driven away. While our corporate tax rates are very high, the USA is also a very efficient and productive place to do business.

In the end if they can't innovate and be responsive they're not going to last anyway.

-spence