Look at that!!
http://www.bostonherald.com/business/general/view/20091129mass_weighs_tougher_protections_for_stripe d_bass/srvc=home&position=recent

20"??????????? They can't be serious?

I thought that strange too,maybe an accommodation to aquaculture?

If 20 inches is not a mis-print then those folks on on Beacon Hill really don't know their ass from their elbow!:smash:

If 20 inches is not a mis-print then those folks on on Beacon Hill really don't know their ass from their elbow!:smash:

Larry you seem surprised,those fargin ice holes don't have a clue especially that little guy Patrick :devil2:

Can't find the hearing notice. Anybody? I only posted the AP wire

Wow what is the reason behind this ?More info is needed.

Is this the reference to bill: H796, a bill introduced by Rep. Matthew Patrick to conserve wild striped bass by prohibiting the commercial sale in Massachusetts? Looks/reads like they intended a slot: 20 - 26 and greater than 40?

.....no instance shall any rule or regulation authorize the taking or possession of striped bass which are less than 20 inches in length or greater than 26 inches total length but less than 40 inches total length. It is unlawful to take or possess striped bass unless the fish are whole with head on and are between 20 and 26 inches total length or 40 inches and greater total length.

Note: this may not be the current language draft going before the House...

Like this will get passed. The comms will be all over it..

they said "tagged by the grower"

so as to not to be confused with the wild fish caught (shorts)

but the $1000 dollar Fine,,,,,,,,,,60 days in jail....stuff
was thinking:
whats to stop someone from sticking a few short fish
in the bed of your truck out of revenge or whatever
a bloody hate crime

it would make the buddy system paramount
unless you have a vehicle that prevents this
or it's your word against theirs.

AN ACT RELATIVE TO THE CONSERVATION OF ATLANTIC STRIPED BASS.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Court assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:

SECTION 1. Section 110A of chapter 130 of the General Laws, as appearing in the 2006 Official Edition, is herby amended by striking the section in its entirety and inserting in place thereof the following
sentences:-

(a) Commercial harvesting and sale of wild striped bass shall be prohibited in the commonwealth.
The director, with the approval of the marine fisheries advisory commission, shall adopt rules and regulations relative to the taking or possession of wild striped bass by recreational angling, provided that in no instance shall any rule or regulation authorize the taking or possession of striped bass which are less than 20 inches in length or greater than 26 inches total length but less than 40 inches total length. It is unlawful to take or possess striped bass unless the fish are whole with head on and are between 20 and 26 inches total length or 40 inches and greater total length.

(b) It is unlawful to take or possess more than one (1) striped bass each day.

(c) All aquaculture raised striped bass for sale in the commonwealth shall bear the tag of the grower or distributor of the fish.

(d) Whoever violates any rules or regulations made pursuant to this section shall be punished by a fine of not less than two hundred dollars for each fish taken or possessed for the first violation, five hundred dollars for each fish taken or possessed for the second violation and for each subsequent violation shall be fined one thousand dollars for each fish taken or possessed or imprisoned not more than sixty days or both. No part of any fine imposed for the taking or possession of any striped bass in violation of any such regulation shall be remitted.

(e)SECTION 2. The striped bass quota for commercial fishing provided to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts by the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission shall not be added to recreational fishing quotas. Said quota shall be set aside for conservation and the Director of the Division of Marine Fisheries shall use his best efforts in working with the Commission to see that the amount of this quota is not given to other

Interesting. Clearly states no commercial harvest and a Slot limit for Recs. The only thing missing is calling it a state gamefish - purely speculating that some that wrote the this would not want to call it a gamefish to give it some long term legitimacy.

Interesting. Clearly states no commercial harvest and a Slot limit for Recs. The only thing missing is calling it a state gamefish - purely speculating that some that wrote the this would not want to call it a gamefish to give it some long term legitimacy.

Whenever the topic has come up, this is what most people have wanted. I don't believe changes like this in only one state is going to make any difference though.

If this passes through when would it become effective? Has anybody lived through a similar mandate like this? I've only fished within the current regulations but this is alot different and I don't know what to think. Seems ok for the conservation of the species but the Comms would be drastically affected by this. How many dollars are we talking about commercially per season in MA? Sorry for all the questions which may seem stupid to others more in tuned to this.:smash:

John were did you find that?

Bill

Whenever the topic has come up, this is what most people have wanted. I don't believe changes like this in only one state is going to make any difference though.

I think it would make a minuscule difference but not a big one.

If this passes through when would it become effective? Has anybody lived through a similar mandate like this? I've only fished within the current regulations but this is alot different and I don't know what to think. Seems ok for the conservation of the species but the Comms would be drastically affected by this. How many dollars are we talking about commercially per season in MA? Sorry for all the questions which may seem stupid to others more in tuned to this.:smash:

I don't think the comm money on SB is a drop in the bucket compared to the rec dollar generation. Very few dedicated comm fishers make a sizeable dollar off it and the majority of SB comm fishers are generally recreational anyway. NOBODY can make an annual living off selling SB in Mass.

Personally I'm for tighter regs on both Recs & Comms, coastwide but not for eliminating the commercial take. Allocation isn't the issue.

John were did you find that?

Bill In PRBuzz's post above Is this the reference to bill: H796...

My info came via a Stripers Forever campaign to make the striper a game fish and block commercial fishing. Here is the info provided on economics:

According to a recent professionally produced economic study, the economic impacts of the recreational fishery in Massachusetts total to $1.2 billion compared to only $24 million for the commercial fishery 50 times greater.

The recreational fishery is responsible for 10,986 full time equivalent jobs many are full time compared to just 524 full time equivalent jobs for the commercial fishery.

The Commercial fishery runs only a few days each week for a couple of months in the summer, and no one depends on striped bass for a full time commercial fishing livelihood.

66% of all commercial permit holders, approximately 2,400 fishermen, hold the permit but report zero landings.

The quality of striped bass fishing is declining rapidly, and the commercial targeting of the 75,000 large, breeding-sized female stripers - many more with the illegal fishery - is extremely damaging to the resource.

Among the New England states, Maine, New Hampshire, and Connecticut have already designated striped bass as game fish. It is time for Massachusetts to join these other states in protecting wild striped bass and enhancing the recreational industry that so many in Massachusetts depend on.

Stripers Forever and its more than 3,000 Massachusetts members urge you to support this important legislation.



Fred Jennings Ph.D, Massachusetts State Chair of Stripers Forever

John, You're right. There is a possible benefit but it would be minuscule and not enough to make a marked benefit to the species' health.

I just can't see how strict guidelines in MA are going to help an animal that migrates all the way from VA.

Also, and this may be my misunderstanding of how the regs work, but won't this allow the commercial quota that would have gone to MA fisherman to be divvied amongst other commercial states?

My info came via a Stripers Forever campaign to make the striper a game fish and block commercial fishing. Here is the info provided on economics:

According to a recent professionally produced economic study, the economic impacts of the recreational fishery in Massachusetts total to $1.2 billion compared to only $24 million for the commercial fishery 50 times greater.

The recreational fishery is responsible for 10,986 full time equivalent jobs many are full time compared to just 524 full time equivalent jobs for the commercial fishery.

The Commercial fishery runs only a few days each week for a couple of months in the summer, and no one depends on striped bass for a full time commercial fishing livelihood.

66% of all commercial permit holders, approximately 2,400 fishermen, hold the permit but report zero landings.

The quality of striped bass fishing is declining rapidly, and the commercial targeting of the 75,000 large, breeding-sized female stripers - many more with the illegal fishery - is extremely damaging to the resource.

Among the New England states, Maine, New Hampshire, and Connecticut have already designated striped bass as game fish. It is time for Massachusetts to join these other states in protecting wild striped bass and enhancing the recreational industry that so many in Massachusetts depend on.

Stripers Forever and its more than 3,000 Massachusetts members urge you to support this important legislation.



Fred Jennings Ph.D, Massachusetts State Chair of Stripers Forever


As much as I want to see striped bass as a gamefish and a slot limit implemented... and I want that a lot.......this (i.e., Striper Forever's) economic argument is total garbage.

It is based on the ridiculous assumption that recreational fisherman would not spend their discretionary income on something else to enhance the quality of their lives if fishing were not an option. It also fails to account for the money saved by an increased food supply that includes striped bass...(more supply creates lower prices for all protein sources). Looked at that way, some level of commercial utilization almost always is necessary for a public resource to have maximal economic yield.

For unabashed selfish reasons I hope this bill passes, but if it does it will because one side's lies fooled more idiots than the other side's lies. Then again that seems to be the way our system works.

1 fish 20"-26" or over 40" is the same as Maine.

As much as I want to see striped bass as a gamefish and a slot limit implemented... and I want that a lot.......this (i.e., Striper Forever's) economic argument is total garbage.

It is based on the ridiculous assumption that recreational fisherman would not spend their discretionary income on something else to enhance the quality of their lives if fishing were not an option. It also fails to account for the money saved by an increased food supply that includes striped bass...(more supply creates lower prices for all protein sources). Looked at that way, some level of commercial utilization almost always is necessary for a public resource to have maximal economic yield.

For unabashed selfish reasons I hope this bill passes, but if it does it will because one side's lies fooled more idiots than the other side's lies. Then again that seems to be the way our system works.

Mostly agree.

And if I wasn't fishing I would not be spending as much on things that generate sales tax to the state (PR0n after all is online - just kidding :rotf2: ) I can also guarantee what ever activity replaced fishing would probably cost my wallet (and my marriage) less and the state more because I would be a miserable SOB.

For unabashed selfish reasons I hope this bill passes, but if it does it will because one side's lies fooled more idiots than the other side's lies. Then again that seems to be the way our system works.

Like last November? StripersForever, more elitist loons trying to impose they're will on others using the gubmint. Think I'll go load another thousand rounds. It's coming!:rumble:

Like last November? StripersForever, more elitist loons trying to impose they're will on others using the gubmint. Think I'll go load another thousand rounds. It's coming!:rumble:

OX :btu: Good seeing you, err typing, crap, you know what I mean

I would like to see the slot size a little higher... like 28-34

I would like to see the slot size a little higher... like 28-34


That size slot is smack dab in the middle of the fish they are trying to protect. The 20-26" fish are going to have a much higher number of males -v - the almost exclusive only females in the 28-34 (really anything over 28). Protecting classes of fish in the 28-39" range is going to keep a lot more breeders open and available.

So what exactly causes such a drastic decline (read extinction) of the male species upon reaching the magical 28" length???? Always wondered that. (Do the females torture their males as much as humans do????)
And as for that slot I mentioned, it is because I get a little more jazz when the fish is say 34" as opposed to a low twenty inch fish, that's all....

So what exactly causes such a drastic decline (read extinction) of the male species upon reaching the magical 28" length???? Always wondered that. (Do the females torture their males as much as humans do????)
And as for that slot I mentioned, it is because I get a little more jazz when the fish is say 34" as opposed to a low twenty inch fish, that's all....


Figured ;)

Why is the life expectancy for women 8 years more than men? How many licks to the center of a...

Don't know. The males don't get very big, the females do. Nearly every fish caught over 20#s is a she.

If Stripers Forever and their limited budget can get a fisheries issue passed by the Massachusetts Legislature, Just wait until the Pew Foundation, PETA, The Humane Society and every other Tree Hugging Anti-Fishing group with REAL Money comes into the picture.

They are licking their chops for a precedent like this to be set.

You can agree or disagree with their objective, but their means will be the entire fishing communities undoing.

Numb,

I doubt the food supply argument holds much water. There is not that much SB in the the total protein equation to amount to anything significant that would in turn effect price of other food. Besides, commercial demand could easily be met with farm raised fish.

This law would result in a substantial reduction of fish taken in MA and I support it. It is moving in the right direction of conservation. Going from 2 to 1 on recs (regardless of size) alone is huge. Taking the $ off the fishes head stops a lot of wrongful activity that we all know goes on and is unaccounted for. I support the game fish goal (along with a rec cut)l, it is the only way IMO to really cut through the crap and reduce the pressure on the fish.

Because the SB is largely a C&R activity among many (most?) recs now anyway, I don't think this will hurt the recs all that much nor the $ they bring into the economy.

I believe the $ recs wouldn't contribute if SB were completely halted is somewhat exaggerated but it is a huge number.
There is some real evidence that during the moratorium people didn't fish for SB nearly as often. Who knows what they did but they will probably do it again. My own personal observations during the moratorium was there were a lot fewer guys out fishing for bass in those years.
Given the reductions of Fluke, Seabass and now SB there could be a shift out of fishing altogether and into other activities...or maybe just go into the savings or pay off some debt. Further I strongly believe that higher fuel costs will aggravate the boating end of the equation as well. Lastly, I think having to buy a rec fishing lic will be "just one more thing" to stop a lot of newbies and familys from getting into sw fishing.

From my own personal (selfish)standpoint I strongly support gamefish move because there will not be the 60+ comm boats fishing day in and day out and day out at GH pounding the %$%$%$%$ out of the fish dumping tons of bunker and depleting the local stock as they take a healthy chunk of the quota from my backyard. (yes that means you RI guys too) I will tell you those fish off GH are like Pavlov's dogs..they are trained to come to the dinner bell which is rung every Sun, Tue, Wed and Thur.

I also believe (at least up my way) that stopping the comm fishing for bass will improve the bunker situation which is depleted with these bass guys taking thousands of bunker to support their comm bass habit.

I hope it passes but doubt it will. The comm guys have a strong voice in this state and they have filtered their way up the legislation tree like a bad disease. They usually get most of what they want. There is what I call the "NRA mentality" among comm fishermen. "I can't give up anything because the next thing you know you will be taking away my fishing rods" mentality. (referring to "can't give up armor piercing ammo and fully automatic weapons because the next thing you know we have to give up all our guns" thinking)

That size slot is smack dab in the middle of the fish they are trying to protect. The 20-26" fish are going to have a much higher number of males -v - the almost exclusive only females in the 28-34 (really anything over 28). Protecting classes of fish in the 28-39" range is going to keep a lot more breeders open and available.

Here's the thinking behind a slot as I understand it and its based on some Ted Williams(not the baseball player, the writer) penned articles I've read.

The lower size on a slot limit allows meat fishers to reach their intended goal easier, which is to kill a fish to eat without having to sift through and release a bunch of sub legal fish in order to cull out a keeper. Williams cites lower fish mortality due to a decrease in bycatch mortality which comes from fewer fish being hooked. This is particularly true with charter operations who mostly get paid to put fish on the dock. Culling must occur under this scenario.
Lowering the daily bag to one fish makes excellent sense as the charter operators now can legallly take up to 28 fish per day all season if they desire. A one fish per day limit would cut this number to 14.

Implementing a 28"-40" slot allows for breeder fish to reproduce several times before being legal to harvest. Right now we hit them just as they are reaching thier spawning ability at 28".

I like the proposed plan as I believe the commercial striped bass fishery in Mass is a total farce. Although I've sold my share of fish over the years and still posess a license, its really just gas money most people are using the dead fish for, plain and simple.

I would, however, be entirely against a "no keep" law, which may eventually arise from this process. Keeping one for the table should always be a part of the equation.

The comm guys have a strong voice in this state and they have filtered their way up the legislation tree like a bad disease. They usually get most of what they want. There is what I call the "NRA mentality" among comm fishermen. "I can't give up anything because the next thing you know you will be taking away my fishing rods" mentality. (referring to "can't give up armor piercing ammo and fully automatic weapons because the next thing you know we have to give up all our guns" thinking)

Once the angler registry/fishing license reaches its full potential, the comms are going the way of the buffalo hunter. End of story. I think within 3 years this will be the case as the comms will face a much larger and organized opposition.

I would love to see the 40" slot raised to 45" or 47". Basically a trophy allowance. Leave the 20lb to high 30lb fish alone to breed. If a bass makes it to the high 30's I'd like to see them be given the chance to reproduce more if they survived that long. My own selficiousness kicks in at 40lb. A possible free Van Staal is to good to pass up and I get a rush out of trying to drag a 40 to my truck unnoticed. :)

One the angler registry/fishing license reaches its full potential, the comms are going the way of the buffalo hunter. End of story. I think within 3 years this will be the case as the comms will face a much larger and organized opposition.

your are exactly correct.. it is the evolution of things....

I never thought i'd see it this way... maybe I'm tired of the fight...

As youngster(14) I sold school bass and trapped eels to sell (another fish in decline) I thought i'd sell fish forever,as a young man with 4 growing kids those fish bought all the "going back to school" clothes for my kids each fall... i havent sold ( except tuna) a fish ( bass or cod) since 2004....I've watched things change through the years, fishing out of Newbury port, we had several fish dealers to sell our fish to.. now all gone, the few remaining draggers have their own trucks and go to gloucester and Boston, a few local places try and buy bass, but it's more trouble than it is worth.. another freedom lost...

I trapped fur all my life from the time i was able to walk, I was a member of mass trappers and for years, we fought the good fight.. but money and ill informed people won out... Mass eventually ended all practical trapping...once again another freedom lost..

it's coming guy's, maybe not this year, but eventualy, you will no longer be able to sell bass in Mass....I never thought i couldn't hitch up my boat in dead winter and go cod fishing.. they took that away too.. Now the boat is covered and winterized in October..C&R and game fish status is inevitable..

Maryland had the right idea ( in theory) years ago allowing only the small fish to be harvested, thus saving the breeders... it makes perfect sense... I like the slot limit Idea witht the trophy clause.. thus you make a decision... do I want to eat it or catch a wall hanger...

Just one mans opinion that has spent most of his 53 years on this planet fishing, hunting and trapping... and watching it slowly go the way of the buffalo...

tight lines all
Roc..

Maryland had the right idea ( in theory) years ago allowing only the small fish to be harvested, thus saving the breeders... it makes perfect sense... I like the slot limit Idea witht the trophy clause.. thus you make a decision... do I want to eat it or catch a wall hanger...



Maryland saves the breeders that make it into their waters to spawn. Virgina allows them to be slaughtered every winter/spring as they school up and stage to go up the Chessie. These are strictly rec boaters doing this.

NY closes the Hudson for the pre-spawn staging and the start of the spawn. I wish Virginia would do the same.

^

Instituting a slot limit as prescribed will in effect create a trophy fishery if other states follow suit, which is exactly what we all want, no? We're essentially instituting a 40" minimum size limit. Cutting the limit to one a day and lowering the bar on size equates to lower fishing pressure as well as lower discard mortality. People will give up sooner with a fish in the box as opposed to culling through shorts in order to get a keeper.

At worst, we're creating a neutral harvest/mortality picture for small fish by cutting the daily bag to one small fish a day and allowing our breeding stock repeated attempts to reproduce. Right now we're slaughtering the breeders as soon as they reach minimal breeding size.

Other states will eventually have to follow suit once pressure from the newly organized "recreational fisherman's" lobby is created through the federal registry and ensuing saltwater license. Its just a matter of time as the recs greatly outnumber the commercials. Recs aren't organized yet, but its coming and is as close to a done deal as one could ask for.

If all this stuff falls into place(and its likely it will) we'll be walking on the backs of large fish in 5-10 years. :fishin: :happy:

i agree....

the larger the breeder...the more eggs get laid and hopefully fertilized

which makes more fingerlings to go on maturing......

but the odds are stacked WAY against them all the way
to a Monster sized bass.

I remember well my last day of being a com guy.
27 beautiful fish all over the deck. For what ? A few hundred bucks.
So for the greater good I swore I would never willfully kill another one.
Just my feelings, not preaching to anyone.

I'm not hugely against commercial fishing for bass but I do think we need to take Rec & Comm back to when it was one fish for rec, 800K for commercial and THEN take a third off the top. That would put a dent in both.

We still gotta find out how legit this is and if so, does it have legs.

OX :btu: Good seeing you, err typing, crap, you know what I mean

You too JR. The British thought it was "CRAP" too, how'd they do? As for SF....bunch of clucks.......probably 80% of them couldn't catch a 20# fish. So they want legislation under the guise of conservation to give them more of an edge. Please................:bs:

Good Morning Viet Nam...

Before I start...there are a few threads on this exact bill from the past year so search away boys. Search under Stripers Forever and Rep Matt Patrick.

Here is what I can tell you as I am very much up to speed on this one.

This is the Rep. Matt Patrick of Falmouth aka Stripers Forever Legislation and yes, it has legs. I am pretty sure Stripers Forever got a green grant to get this legislation passed and I know they have a lobbyist, organizers and have been working a professional political campaign strategy.

The hearing before the MA Joint Committee on Natural Resources, Agriculture and the Environment mentioned in the article was bounced around between Dec 1 and Dec 15 and now has been postponed until someitme in January. The given reason is that some legislators that wanted to tesify had scheduling issues. I am aware that there are legislators going to testify both for and against this bill. I have learned that Stripers Forever is bussing people in for the hearing. Once again this bill does have some legs.

The MA Striped Bass Association voted many months ago to oppose this legislation. Although we feel there should be a robust public debate on S-B as a gamefish and regulations to reduce mortality, the number one reason to oppose this legislation is that the legislature should not get into managing fisheries. Can you see it now. If this bill passes there will be legislation filed for every single fish in MA Waters. This is how it is done in Virginia and that system does not work. Whomever posted about the enviros and commercials having lots of money and waiting for a prescedent was dead nuts correct.

Another reason to oppose the bill is that in the eyes of the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission Striped Bass Management Board and their scientists this bill will not conserve any Striped Bass. The current managment plan wuld redistribute the commercial quota unless MA chose to harvest these fish in another manner (ie, the NJ third trophy fish) and that is unlikely.

I will state that I do not think many of the recreational organizations are going to go to war on this bill so you rod and reel commercial guys better get into this fight and fast.

Another reason to oppose the bill is that in the eyes of the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission Striped Bass Management Board and their scientists this bill will not conserve any Striped Bass. The current managment plan wuld redistribute the commercial quota unless MA chose to harvest these fish in another manner (ie, the NJ third trophy fish) and that is unlikely.

Very true, but this new legislation is just a trojan horse. Down the road I can't believe with the impending sw registry/license the rec fishers take a greater position of power, thus influencing the outcome of our fisheries regs to a much greater degree...not saying this is necessarily good, but its iminent.

I cant understand why on earth anybody would want a slot limit and think that it is a good thing. They did it here in NJ for a few years and wiped out a generation of resident fish. Didnt work, its gone but the damage is done. Anybody was able to go out in the early spring and clam up a 100 or so Slot fish. it was amazing how much that changed in a year and then two. You had headboats from NY and NJ with 60-80 people on em pounding on these fish, then charter boats, and rec guys. Every boat in the bay was anchoring up and clamming and then chunking when the bunker arrived. Slot fish dont promote catch and realease, people catching slots are killing and eating em. Means alot more people killing...Raritan bay is now like the dead sea All those resident fish are wiped out. People up in New england cant imagine what pressure there is here. Makes mass commercial look like me surfcasting block...... Here we have the most densly populated area and you cant imagine the pressure on fish. Thats OK though, because now that the bay is dead we saved the bunker and the bunker made a huge comeback... They are up and down the NJ coast for miles. An easy bait supply is a good thing for our striped bass, I think much of the opposite. When everybody has easy access to bunker anybody could could go out and snag and drop. Pretty funny when you have Hundreds of boats and hundreds of "Surffishermen" snagging and dropping every single day. Headboats from Staten Island, Brooklyn, NY and NJ targeting the transitory fish moving up the coast. These are the Big fish. Well the fishery really has been getting worse and worse every year. Funny to see miles and miles of bunker schools with nothing on em. Things change alot in a year or two. I dont care what anybody says, numbers are down, way down and thats up the coast from North carolina to Maine. I know because I fish up and down the coast, areas that used to hold fish dont. No matter how you cut it there are fewer and fewer fish every season. I know how much harder and smarter I have to fish.... Mass Can be like NJ, put in a slot limit, Sell the commercial fishery out for a single dollar a fish and call it a bonus tag program with an endless supply of tags.Everyone I know gets bonus tags.... Guys going out 4 to a boat and keeping 16 fish a trip. Hell I know, I have clients come on my boat and do it all the time. In fact I kill way more fish a season here in NJ on my charters than I do in Mass. Commercial 2008 / 11,500lbs 18 days, 2009 / 8,600lbs 14 days.... I wont even write whats killed on my charters. In fact, I dont get any just catch and release trips. I know so many people that reuse those tags and so the reporting season is all BS, at least in Mass the commercial fishery is regulated. These people who say they are trying to save the striped bass fishery really have no clue, they are idiots. They Point the finger at Mass commercial, rhode island commercial. I bet more fish are killed in NJ April, May, June, October, November just poundage wise recreationally then Mass and Rhode Island combined Commercial and recreational. Who keeps tally on what is getting killed here. I dont have any catch reports to fill out here Charter wise or recreational. It all BS. Gotta love now how the shut the Fluke down, all the boats that were targeting fluke are now targeting stripers. Striped Bass donta stand a chance in the next few years. Guys should see the Damage is done in VA / NC in the winter when the whole Biomass is Concentrated. How that fishery fell of a cliff. Hey, Maybe we can get the eez opened up to 12 miles like VA is pushing since the inside fish are wiped... Its gonna be ugly in the next few years. Should just have a 1 fish limit at 36" OR Better like they did in the mratorioum. Mass commercial stayed open and look at the comeback the fish made.Get used to it being like buzzards bay in the summer, or the rhode Island Surf in October / November. How things have changed in short time. Sorry for the rambling... from our government down, people in charge who dont have a clue....

I'm not hugely against commercial fishing for bass but I do think we need to take Rec & Comm back to when it was one fish for rec, 800K for commercial and THEN take a third off the top. That would put a dent in both.

We still gotta find out how legit this is and if so, does it have legs.


This is extremely legit. The bill has been sponsored for over a year and you are hearing about it now because it made it to committee. Once the committee decides it is worthy of a vote in the house it will be in fact a bill.

I have personally sent over 100 handwritten letters in support of this to the MA legislature and countless e-mails.

The commercial striped bass industry in Massachusetts is second in take only to Maryland. Eliminating the commercial market in MA and reducing the Rec take to one fish a day goes a long way in conserving the striped Bass. I am surprised this is news to everyone.

Stripers Forever is hardly an Elitist group. It is a group that is run by volunteers has and spends every dime it receives to conserve and protect the Striped Bass. To think the members of Stripers Forever are a bunch of Orvis Casting Land Rover Driving elitists is simply ignorant.

Should just have a 1 fish limit at 36" ....
:uhuh: K.I.S.S.

And you have absolutley not a CLUE as to what the Rec take is state to state, NO CLUE whatsoever. Just blame it on the Mass com's....

Probably the same people that encouraged Bonus Tags... NJ the only State that has it. 3 Fish per man, day to day, every day! The hell with people that dont fish, only the people that fish for striped bass should be allowed to eat striped bass, (ELITEST). Would do lovely things for the black market of striped bass, just like tog down here in NJ / NY! And Bass!

And you have absolutley not a CLUE as to what the Rec take is state to state, NO CLUE whatsoever. Just blame it on the Mass com's....

Ken,

You make many valid points, but the Mass commercial is still a joke/free for all, IMO. Stopping commercial harvest in Mass is only one of the facets of this plan. Added benefits are the plethora of poachers who ply the RI and CT waters and sell their fish in Mass will have one less place to dump their catches. I regularly watch a couple divers from CT bring their gigantic "commercial" catches up to Mass every summer. Every one of their fish has a harpoon hole just behind the gill plate from where the fish were shot with a spear gun. I'm sure plenty of this stuff goes on but doesn't get on the public radar.

Like you pointed out, the "game fish" status in Jersey is a joke too as the powers that be simply pulled the rug out from under the commercial guys and handed the quota to the rec guys, which accomplished absolutley nothing but the continued slaughter of large fish. Should the same thing happen in Mass it will be a travesty.

I'm thinking better things are going to happen going forward simply because the gamefish status and one fish per day limit does make sense provided we get everyone on board.
Provided there's an abundance of slot sized fish available that would be protected, the slot makes sense too provided everyone gets on board with it.

If the plan does work out, it will result in every user group taking less, not just the comms.

The commercial striped bass industry in Massachusetts is second in take only to Maryland. Eliminating the commercial market in MA and reducing the Rec take to one fish a day goes a long way in conserving the striped Bass. I am surprised this is news to everyone.

Stripers Forever is hardly an Elitist group. It is a group that is run by volunteers has and spends every dime it receives to conserve and protect the Striped Bass. To think the members of Stripers Forever are a bunch of Orvis Casting Land Rover Driving elitists is simply ignorant.

My understanding is that eliminating the Commercial Season in MA will only allow for that tonnage of fish to be distributed to other states. Where exactly is the net gain for the Striped Bass?

Selfishly, it will be nice not to have Comms cherry-picking the biggest fish around and being without the ones you sometimes encounter that act like they own the ocean (this is the minority though).

... To think the members of Stripers Forever are a bunch of Orvis Casting Land Rover Driving elitists is simply ignorant.

...:rotflmao:...:rotflmao:...:rotflmao:

Great way win friends and educate the Woefully Uninformed, there, Skippy...particularly on your 5th post...:hihi:

Careful Crafty
his middle initial stands for bad

Numb,

I doubt the food supply argument holds much water. There is not that much SB in the the total protein equation to amount to anything significant that would in turn effect price of other food. Besides, commercial demand could easily be met with farm raised fish.

This law would result in a substantial reduction of fish taken in MA and I support it. It is moving in the right direction of conservation. Going from 2 to 1 on recs (regardless of size) alone is huge. Taking the $ off the fishes head stops a lot of wrongful activity that we all know goes on and is unaccounted for. I support the game fish goal (along with a rec cut)l, it is the only way IMO to really cut through the crap and reduce the pressure on the fish.

Because the SB is largely a C&R activity among many (most?) recs now anyway, I don't think this will hurt the recs all that much nor the $ they bring into the economy.

I believe the $ recs wouldn't contribute if SB were completely halted is somewhat exaggerated but it is a huge number.
There is some real evidence that during the moratorium people didn't fish for SB nearly as often. Who knows what they did but they will probably do it again. My own personal observations during the moratorium was there were a lot fewer guys out fishing for bass in those years.
Given the reductions of Fluke, Seabass and now SB there could be a shift out of fishing altogether and into other activities...or maybe just go into the savings or pay off some debt. Further I strongly believe that higher fuel costs will aggravate the boating end of the equation as well. Lastly, I think having to buy a rec fishing lic will be "just one more thing" to stop a lot of newbies and familys from getting into sw fishing.

From my own personal (selfish)standpoint I strongly support gamefish move because there will not be the 60+ comm boats fishing day in and day out and day out at GH pounding the %$%$%$%$ out of the fish dumping tons of bunker and depleting the local stock as they take a healthy chunk of the quota from my backyard. (yes that means you RI guys too) I will tell you those fish off GH are like Pavlov's dogs..they are trained to come to the dinner bell which is rung every Sun, Tue, Wed and Thur.

I also believe (at least up my way) that stopping the comm fishing for bass will improve the bunker situation which is depleted with these bass guys taking thousands of bunker to support their comm bass habit.

I hope it passes but doubt it will. The comm guys have a strong voice in this state and they have filtered their way up the legislation tree like a bad disease. They usually get most of what they want. There is what I call the "NRA mentality" among comm fishermen. "I can't give up anything because the next thing you know you will be taking away my fishing rods" mentality. (referring to "can't give up armor piercing ammo and fully automatic weapons because the next thing you know we have to give up all our guns" thinking)

Sandman,


Couldn't agree more about the fishing on MV. The use (I mean abuse) of the baitfish is huge too. We want to nurture the SB fishery, we better start thinking about their forage or the increasing lack of it.

Don'y know much about the bill, but I hope it passes.

Curious point, but it is my understanding that the CT legislature just voted to allow some percentage of unused quota from 1 year to roll over to the next for the Comms. Here's the perplexing bit, CT has no Comm fishery so they voted to let our neighbors to catch more of our fish. Can't really see how this benefits CT fishermen. Idiots...

Fair winds

ab

Wow, First I've heard of this. It's about time!

Whenever the topic has come up, this is what most people have wanted. I don't believe changes like this in only one state is going to make any difference though.

Sets an example for other states to follow. Seems like all the remaining comm states are dancing around a pool of cold water and afraid to be the first to dip their toe in.

Lowering the size limit to 20" is a measure to reduce release mortality. Won't work, but at least they're trying

That size slot is smack dab in the middle of the fish they are trying to protect. The 20-26" fish are going to have a much higher number of males -v - the almost exclusive only females in the 28-34 (really anything over 28). Protecting classes of fish in the 28-39" range is going to keep a lot more breeders open and available.

John, that does proect the fish you're suggesting we protect

Nurture the SB fishery??? Why not just put everything on Gamefish status, catch and release only??? Put it on tuna, all species. Why make Striped bass so special?? Kind of selfish to have no com fishing, however rec guys can kill their catch??? Maybe have increases in Rec licenses??? CT went from $10 to $60 per person... VA went to $50.00 per person, no more buying a boat license unless your a resident... I know I have to pay $1260.00 in licenses just to be legal... Theres alot more water than just Gay Head... 60 boats is a blessing, should come down to fish NJ / NY Harbor! Just because there are 60 boats out there doesnt mean everyone is catching, theres alot more to it....

I'm not hugely against commercial fishing for bass but I do think we need to take Rec & Comm back to when it was one fish for rec, 800K for commercial and THEN take a third off the top. That would put a dent in both.

We still gotta find out how legit this is and if so, does it have legs.

Biggest problem I see with the commercial fishery is that the guys who are good are trained assassins. They can hover over a body of big fish and do some real damage. Bodies of fish are vulnerable to being wiped out if the fleet anchors up over their heads. If these guys take their 30 fish from a pod of 100, that's a third of a migrating or resident pod of fish that has likely been programmed (genetically) to run a certain route, breed a certain river. Take a third away--that's bad enough--but what about when the other 15 boats within binocular range come motoring over to drop their yo-yo's how many are left then?

I've seen some great hauls come into the commercial place near my house---seen many 50's and a 64 there. But they don't hold a candle to the thousands of 30's I've seen stiff and covered with crushed ice. It really does need to stop.

We should not support the Striper Cup either though... that list of pin winner is like Schindlers List for striped bass

A high percentage of the commercial guys DO NOT NEED TO BE FISHING TO SUSTAIN THEMSELVES ANYWAY. It's a double-paid vacation for them.

If we are to keep the commercial fishery alive, you should have to prove that commercial fishing makes up more that 50% of your yearly income.

-Dave

Nurture the SB fishery??? Why not just put everything on Gamefish status, catch and release only??? Put it on tuna, all species. Why make Striped bass so special?? Kind of selfish to have no com fishing, however rec guys can kill their catch??? Maybe have increases in Rec licenses??? CT went from $10 to $60 per person... VA went to $50.00 per person, no more buying a boat license unless your a resident... I know I have to pay $1260.00 in licenses just to be legal... Theres alot more water than just Gay Head... 60 boats is a blessing, should come down to fish NJ / NY Harbor! Just because there are 60 boats out there doesnt mean everyone is catching, theres alot more to it....

I would probably say that too if I was as good as you are at targeting trophy bass. I'm sure selling them makes up a good chunk of your fun money.

John, that does proect the fish you're suggesting we protect

It does, provided there's enough fish passing through the slot size, which depends on what was born in previous years. If you get a large year class of fish born it makes sense to me the managers would have to anticipate the age/length and implement the slot accordingly for it to provide any real benefit.

If a 28"-40" slot gets implemented but the fish are all either too big/too small its a wasted effort. The slot also has to coincide with good year classes of fish in order to provide the highest yield of protected breeders.

We stay the course there might be a lot less as you stated earlier, no??

It does, provided there's enough fish passing through the slot size, which depends on what was born in previous years. If you get a large year class of fish born it makes sense to me the managers would have to anticipate the age/length and implement the slot accordingly for it to provide any real benefit.

If a 28"-40" slot gets implemented but the fish are all either too big/too small its a wasted effort. The slot also has to coincide with good year classes of fish in order to provide the highest yield of protected breeders.

Righth there with ya. Look at the year classes though, this would protect the 2001 class which was the biggest ever recorded.

-Dave

Good Morning Viet Nam...

Before I start...there are a few threads on this exact bill from the past year so search away boys. Search under Stripers Forever and Rep Matt Patrick.

Here is what I can tell you as I am very much up to speed on this one.

This is the Rep. Matt Patrick of Falmouth aka Stripers Forever Legislation and yes, it has legs. I am pretty sure Stripers Forever got a green grant to get this legislation passed and I know they have a lobbyist, organizers and have been working a professional political campaign strategy.

The hearing before the MA Joint Committee on Natural Resources, Agriculture and the Environment mentioned in the article was bounced around between Dec 1 and Dec 15 and now has been postponed until someitme in January. The given reason is that some legislators that wanted to tesify had scheduling issues. I am aware that there are legislators going to testify both for and against this bill. I have learned that Stripers Forever is bussing people in for the hearing. Once again this bill does have some legs.

The MA Striped Bass Association voted many months ago to oppose this legislation. Although we feel there should be a robust public debate on S-B as a gamefish and regulations to reduce mortality, the number one reason to oppose this legislation is that the legislature should not get into managing fisheries. Can you see it now. If this bill passes there will be legislation filed for every single fish in MA Waters. This is how it is done in Virginia and that system does not work. Whomever posted about the enviros and commercials having lots of money and waiting for a prescedent was dead nuts correct.

Another reason to oppose the bill is that in the eyes of the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission Striped Bass Management Board and their scientists this bill will not conserve any Striped Bass. The current managment plan wuld redistribute the commercial quota unless MA chose to harvest these fish in another manner (ie, the NJ third trophy fish) and that is unlikely.

I will state that I do not think many of the recreational organizations are going to go to war on this bill so you rod and reel commercial guys better get into this fight and fast.

Patrick, I agree the marine fisheries should not be told what to do by the senate and congress from this whacked state of ours. If this bill has legs like you say, I have a question. Is anyone else filing a bill to counter this so it can't happen? head them off at the pass so to speak. :huh:

Sounds like a bunch of ill-informed people trying to do what they think is right and as usual, mankind will interfere with nature and throw the balance out like has already happened. I am against killing small fish
1 per day at 36" would be fine with me coastwide.


Canalman, the bass on the banks of the canal on last Memorial day was more than any week of mass. comm season I bet. I don't like to see large breeders going to be sold either, but that bill has many flaws if you ask me.

Cowhunter, I hope it never comes to how it is now in jersey.
The government needs money to operate and they are going to look in any place they can find it. we all have to fight.

This is extremely legit. The bill has been sponsored for over a year and you are hearing about it now because it made it to committee. Once the committee decides it is worthy of a vote in the house it will be in fact a bill.

Yes, certainly aware of the effort having been made and certainly aware that it was going in - this was the first I saw of it coming out.

The commercial striped bass industry in Massachusetts is second in take only to Maryland. Eliminating the commercial market in MA and reducing the Rec take to one fish a day goes a long way in conserving the striped Bass. I am surprised this is news to everyone.


The commercial bass industry in Mass may take second to Maryland but the rec take up and down the coats is tremendous and way overshadows the commercial take. IMO, we need to focus more to reduce the size taken out of the pie to protect the fish, than to decide who's piece is how big.

We really should be having these groups working on what the pie eats. Anything that just reallocates to another usergroup (or state) is really politics and not in the interest of the fish.

I don't commercial fish, I have not, I don't now, and unless there is a massive overpopulation in the future (yeh right) I probably won't then. I do release 99% of what I catch.

Stripers Forever is hardly an Elitist group. It is a group that is run by volunteers has and spends every dime it receives to conserve and protect the Striped Bass. To think the members of Stripers Forever are a bunch of Orvis Casting Land Rover Driving elitists is simply ignorant.

I don't fall in line behind SF because I don't think it is the right fight, Rovers, Orvis, or not - and I don't think I have ever said that and if I have - not in a long time, while sober, or being even remotely serious about fisheries management.

And you have absolutley not a CLUE as to what the Rec take is state to state, NO CLUE whatsoever. Just blame it on the Mass com's....

Nope people don't know, and that poorly pushed through fed license is probably going to help refine those numbers. but who is this directed to??


Wow, First I've heard of this. It's about time!

He lives :rotf2:

John, that does proect the fish you're suggesting we protect

Somewhat. It would be nice to be able to go and protect specific year classes or even define based on guestimate of male to female, and 50 other factors, but there is enough problems getting people to know who much they can legal take when it is one or two fish. A slot would be harder (and worth it IMO). A variable slot could be better in fantasy land but it would never work.



Biggest problem I see with the commercial fishery is that the guys who are good are trained assassins. They can hover over a body of big fish and do some real damage. Bodies of fish are vulnerable to being wiped out if the fleet anchors up over their heads. If these guys take their 30 fish from a pod of 100, that's a third of a migrating or resident pod of fish that has likely been programmed (genetically) to run a certain route, breed a certain river. Take a third away--that's bad enough--but what about when the other 15 boats within binocular range come motoring over to drop their yo-yo's how many are left then?

I've seen some great hauls come into the commercial place near my house---seen many 50's and a 64 there. But they don't hold a candle to the thousands of 30's I've seen stiff and covered with crushed ice. It really does need to stop.

We should not support the Striper Cup either though... that list of pin winner is like Schindlers List for striped bass

A high percentage of the commercial guys DO NOT NEED TO BE FISHING TO SUSTAIN THEMSELVES ANYWAY. It's a double-paid vacation for them.

If we are to keep the commercial fishery alive, you should have to prove that commercial fishing makes up more that 50% of your yearly income.

-Dave

Agree 70%



It does, provided there's enough fish passing through the slot size, which depends on what was born in previous years. If you get a large year class of fish born it makes sense to me the managers would have to anticipate the age/length and implement the slot accordingly for it to provide any real benefit.

If a 28"-40" slot gets implemented but the fish are all either too big/too small its a wasted effort. The slot also has to coincide with good year classes of fish in order to provide the highest yield of protected breeders.

:btu:

Righth there with ya. Look at the year classes though, this would protect the 2001 class which was the biggest ever recorded.

-Dave

2001 - was the biggest this decade and in top 3 overall. And purely anecdotal, the first major spawn of the 93 year class. Have anything to do with it? Dunno. Not in fisheries management. Then next year sucked but IIRC that was a bad drought year or flood year screwing up the spawn.

I think Cowhunter is a guy I could drink a beer with.

Cowman you are 100 percent correct no one has any iota of a clue what the Rec take is at this point in time. The Rec Catch that is reported is total catch including fish that are released to fight another day.

The new regs will only allow one fish to be taken per day. Which will further limit the recreational catch.

The MA comm season is in no way tightly regulated. The catch is under reported there is always fish being sold under the radar. Why is it that a large portion of commercial tags go unfilled every year? Do these people not use their license? The Registration is a joke.

Canalman, you think all the fish are caught commercially yo-yo'ng??? You are way off, I didnt see a single person yo-yoing in mass. whatever the comms catch thats legal goes in the boat and they are done as soon as the limit is hit. I did see alot of fish killed by the snag and drop down here in NJ / NY. They think they are doing good gut hooking and then releasing bleeding fish. Theres always plenty floating belly up. As sandman stated seeing 60 boats at Gayhead, I laugh at that beause you guys dont know how good you have it. There is no way everyone of them is coming in with limits... Less than 10 percent are. Most of those guys are camped out all day for a handfull of fish or they are guys scupping. If it were that easy everyone would do it. Mass is a HUGE state with alot of shoreline, theres many miles of ocean where 1 million LBS comes from. Recs kill WAY More fish. My problem is who is counting those fish. Nobody ever counted a single fish caught recreationally of mine nor did I have to report it, even chartering in NJ, Thats thousands of pounds a season and Im one guy, how about the thousands of other people? Guys should go fish off Rudy VA Dec - March, its like Gay head x 500 boats, 8-12 men a boat, 1-2 trips a day over the entire BIOMASS. That will be a thing of the past soon. I mentioned the license fees because if the comms dont pay there gonna miss the $$, theyll be raising the rec license fees substantially Im sure. started out at $10 and are up 5-6 times more in a year. Easiest money the government ever got! Lets keep raising for Obamanation!

JackBass, the Mass comm season is around 20 days! All you want to do is take the comm catch and give it to the rec guys who are complaining because there are less fish to catch. Might as well make it a catch and release fishery period then??
Mass reporting system is a joke? Let me tell you it is WAY better than what any state has. I get checked there more times in a week than I did in all the other states I fish combined in all my years! At least there is a reporting system. You will never have a rec reporting system, ever. You have absolutely no idea the damage done elsewhere by "rec" guys. More fish are sold black market here in NJ or NY than the entire Mass commercial season. Id bet anything on it!

A high percentage of the commercial guys DO NOT NEED TO BE FISHING TO SUSTAIN THEMSELVES ANYWAY. It's a double-paid vacation for them.

If we are to keep the commercial fishery alive, you should have to prove that commercial fishing makes up more that 50% of your yearly income.

I couldn't disagree more.

I fish comm in RI and pull an average 3-6K(since 2000) a year between bass, fluke, seabass, scup, blues, etc.. Provides pocket money for me all year that doesn't come out of my paycheck(which pays mortgage, bills, etc..) Probably couldn't afford to fish or do many other things with my family without the extra money I make fishing.

Every comm guy I know makes money some other way than fishing as well. If we're going to start banning people who don't make 50% of their living from one trade, why wouldn't we also bar comm fishermen from participating in any other trade in order to supplement income? There's very few guys making a living on fishing only. So to be fair, no carpentry, plumbing, landscaping, etc.. unless it's 50% or more of their income. That's a tremendously slippery slope to go down. People should be able to diversify their income sources as long as they have adequate skills to do so.

Double paid vacation? So what? What's wrong with making money doing something you love?

When you absolutely want the worse outcome of a situation.
Use completely diametrical points of view.
We are all screwed.
Really is a question of do we want to catch fish and/or keep fish and trust magic to replace them.
I have an easier time discussing string theory and quantum physics with Sweetwater.:scratch:

Ya I know...all the fisheries managers are liars or in someones pocket, comm guys are poaching crooks,......lets let stripers forever and a bunch of pol's decide what's best. :smash:

Seems to me if we just nuke NJ there will be enough fish for everyone else.

When you absolutely want the worse outcome of a situation.
Use completely diametrical points of view.
We are all screwed.
Really is a question of do we want to catch fish and/or keep fish and trust magic to replace them.
I have an easier time discussing string theory and quantum physics with Sweetwater.:scratch:

That's only because by the time string theory pops up, you're into the second bottle of Macallan and everything someone makes sense.

That's only because by the time string theory pops up, you're into the second bottle of Macallan and everything someone makes sense.

By the time we are waxing poetic about the universe, and the fate of man. You young ones are all tucked in. By the way scotch taste better when in deep discourse, fine cigar smoke swirling amid the stars.:buds:

Smoking is bad for you


Big Jay I'd buy the first round.

[QUOTE=#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&;728248]Smoking is bad for you


So are women I like, but I do it anyway.
Their collective nattering babble always in my ears like tinnitus.:uhoh:

Striped Bass - Status of Fishery Resources off the Northeastern US (http://www.nefsc.noaa.gov/sos/spsyn/af/sbass/definitions.html#top)

I'm just curious,

How is the data derived for recreationally killed fish ?

No one I know has ever been asked what there take is.

So is it just an " educated " guess ?

I'm just curious,

How is the data derived for recreationally killed fish ?

No one I know has ever been asked what there take is.

So is it just an " educated " guess ?

IIRC they may send someone out with a notepad to ask you to volunteer for a survey as some fish location. I was once asked to do a survey 10 something years ago at the docks in Galilee the one time I went Cod fishing from there.
They also randomly call people to see if the fish, and then how so, and then get in to detail and hope you don't lie.

One of the goals of the "Federal License / Registry" is to generate significant lists to do the surveys.

Most of the recreational "take" is actually from catch and release calculations. Very sketchy at best. I think they use an 8 % number, but this is very water temp and hook location dependent (bait and J hooks is the worst).

A large percentage of the recreational take is also due to charter boats. Obviously these guys have better success than most amateurs, they also are far more likely to get surveyed by dockside monitors (since the charter guys are out everyday). I don't know for certain, but it wouldn't surprise me if the recreational catch rate is skewed based on over sampling of charter boats and using their success rate per hour fished as a guide to what others do.
I do know that for the harbors I am familiar with, the charter and commercial fishery accounts for a MUCH larger percentage of the fish landed than the rest of us recreational schmucks.

These fish population estimates also bother me. The numbers themselves are very soft (the head biologists admit the margin of error may be 50%). Yes, I know people claim there are plenty of fish, just that they are all offshore. To which I would say, "So what?". The ONLY population that matters to most fisherman are the fish they can access. THAT population is in dire straits, and long past the point where more protection is warranted.

For those of us in our 50's, what we have now is going to be the large fish we hope to target in the final 15-20 years of our fishing lives. That prospect is not very encouraging. I don't, therefore, care who feels they are being cheated......I want these fish protected and I don't care one bit if it takes the legislature to do it.

So in the real world. The rec numbers are pure fantasy.
I believe the far greater good is to make it a gamefish nation wide.
Say one a day at 40 inches.
The plusses outweigh the negatives.
The status quo is a joke, we can't be this stupid. . . . I take that back we can.:huh:

This will be my 20th post on this site. And since the quantity of your posts seem to be more important to some than the quality I will keep this short.

I believe giving "game fish" status to stripers will help the stock

I also believe a bigger issue is the dragging for menhaden. Take away the bait and the stripers go away as well. In addition to the taking of the bait the draggers also turn the ocean bottom into a barren desert. Depleting it of all plant and marine life

So "game fish" status is a start. There is still more to do

Cowman you are 100 percent correct no one has any iota of a clue what the Rec take is at this point in time. The Rec Catch that is reported is total catch including fish that are released to fight another day.

The new regs will only allow one fish to be taken per day. Which will further limit the recreational catch.

The MA comm season is in no way tightly regulated. The catch is under reported there is always fish being sold under the radar. Why is it that a large portion of commercial tags go unfilled every year? Do these people not use their license? The Registration is a joke.

I want to know why people equate com fishing w/ fish sold under the radar.....I AM SICK OF THAT %$%$%$%$ TALK !! LETS TALK ABOUT CHARTER GUYS SELLING THEIR CATCH OUT OF STATE, DAY AFTER DAY.

I also believe a bigger issue is the dragging for menhaden. Take away the bait and the stripers go away as well. In addition to the taking of the bait the draggers also turn the ocean bottom into a barren desert. Depleting it of all plant and marine life

Amen

Fix the forage. Dial back the overall keep. Poaching, while really weak and despicable, is not what puts the stock in trouble.

Nobody ever asked me for a catch report in Mass or NJ, nor ANYBODY else I know. The Rec catch is MUCH Higher. You know the Comm catch probably within 10% = / -. Mass is 10 Percent of comm catch coast wide. Stick with stripersforever, let em take away the com catch and give it to VA / MD / NC, no pin hookin there boys, gill netting or haul siegning much more fun. Nobody gives a rats ass about the comm guy in LI thats been breaking every law and making his own comm catch! Beat every case, give the quata to him.Either way, they shut mass down dont make a difference. My clients want dead fish! Im gonn kill the same 25-30k lbs or so Every season up and down the coast from April to January. Get range rover driving shmucks to make the rules, I know, change it to 20 inch cause then they can catch too with rhir fly rods. Regs stay the way they are they will never catch... Next Tuna4ever, Tog4ever, Fluke4ever, make em' all gamefish! Ban all commercial! Bunch of clowns writing 100 letters that spend 2 days on the water a season, inherited dadys money and have nothging better to do! Dont know what it is to work 4 a living, go pay 1K for an orvis guy to put em on fish!

Intrepid24, Well You should know by now, Everything is blamed on commercials!!!

Nobody ever asked me for a catch report in Mass or NJ, nor ANYBODY else I know. The Rec catch is MUCH Higher. You know the Comm catch probably within 10% = / -. Mass is 10 Percent of comm catch coast wide. Stick with stripersforever, let em take away the com catch and give it to VA / MD / NC, no pin hookin there boys, gill netting or haul siegning much more fun. Nobody gives a rats ass about the comm guy in LI thats been breaking every law and making his own comm catch! Beat every case, give the quata to him.Either way, they shut mass down dont make a difference. My clients want dead fish! Im gonn kill the same 25-30k lbs or so Every season up and down the coast from April to January. Get range rover driving shmucks to make the rules, I know, change it to 20 inch cause then they can catch too with rhir fly rods. Regs stay the way they are they will never catch... Next Tuna4ever, Tog4ever, Fluke4ever, make em' all gamefish! Ban all commercial! Bunch of clowns writing 100 letters that spend 2 days on the water a season, inherited dadys money and have nothging better to do! Dont know what it is to work 4 a living, go pay 1K for an orvis guy to put em on fish!

I take offense to your post. I bust my hump every day of my life. I own my own business and go in day after day after day even when I don't feel well. And I do not sit behind a desk and I have no inheritance. And I have not paid any one to put me on to fish. I surf fish at times when most are sleeping. I put in my time and don't expect any one to hand anything to me. And by the way my chevy pick up has 190,000 miles on it and is my only vehicle

Your argument basically states that since other states can still have commercial fishing and that other comm's break the law then it's okay for everyone to do that. Come on man, at least be responsible.

Rec's may catch more fish but they kill far fewer. I dare say that 100% of the fish caught commercially are killed. Recreational fishermen kill very few of their catch....maybe 10% nationwide. For me it's 0% as I release them all....but that's just me. Plus rec's provide much more $$ for the economy than do comm's.

Personally I don't want to see any one's livelihood taken away but I feel saving the stock is more important than a few dollars. And don't call me a treehugger 'cause I am not. But without steps being taken to save the species it will be lost and then nothing will be left for anybody and the comm's will just move on to another species for their clients.

And again, I re-iterate that this is just one step in the right direction. The other is to stop the dragging for menhaden

Intrepid24, Well You should know by now, Everything is blamed on commercials!!!

It's unfortunate, but many people stop caring about their long-term impact when money is motivating them. See: the financial meltdown, most politicians, Enron, etc.

[QUOTE=CowHunter;728380 Well You should know by now, Everything is blamed on commercials!!![/QUOTE]

That's not true. Anyone who is even remotely informed knows this isn't the case. Even with the abuses of the Mass commercial fishery it doesn't take a big stretch to realize the rec harvest is way out of control.

My biggest problem with the Mass commercial is we allow out of staters to get licenses and take our allocation... ice fishing and other illegal/shady practices abound too. Just due to the fact there's a place to sell or transport 30 fish at a time invites all this stuff. The taking of 1 million pounds of fish is a much lesser problem to me as its a small number of the total fish harvested coastwide.

If we implement a one fish per day rec season along with a daily limit of,say, six fish daily for charter operations, it will go a long way. Make the recs fish under the slot limit and the commercial will take care of itself. People will still abuse the commercial regardless, but its the recs we need to cut back.
In addition, we can still nuke New Jersey if its warranted...:laugha:

Rec's may catch more fish but they kill far fewer. I dare say that 100% of the fish caught commercially are killed. Recreational fishermen kill very few of their catch....maybe 10% nationwide. For me it's 0% as I release them all....but that's just me. Plus rec's provide much more $$ for the economy than do comm's.

I'm confused by this. Of course 100% of the comm catch is killed, that's the point isn't it? It's meant for food. Where does 10% come from? Then, you mention that rec's bring more into the economy but have a problem with comm's making money on fish. Either way, money is brought into an economy that creates dead fish. What's the difference? I'm not attacking rec's, as 90 percent of the Striper fishing I do is rec, btw. I just don't get the argument.

And 10% of the take of a few million anglers who fish all year is still a much bigger number than 100% of the comm take that occurs a few weeks a year. If you want to argue that recs kill fewer per trip, I'll have to agree with you, but no way in hell does the comm catch equal the rec, charter, and black market catch. (Thanks to Intrepid for distinguishing between comm catch and black market catch)

Comm fishing is still the only sector that can accurately tally fish mortality and therefore help properly manage fish stocks.

i guess since hardcore surfcasters fish at night they have no idea what happens on the water in the light.most of the C@R that i see is after a limit is already in the box.i guess most guys have never walked the docks out in Montauk when the partyboats recs and charter boats come in.take a look at moriches inlet, shinecock and jones ,fire island, rockaway and every other inlet on the east coast on a weekend.you don't have to be a genuis to see the damage being done by the rec's.you want to protect the bass,1 fish a day with a tag,no fishing sping and fall,just like snook fishing in florida.enforcement is easy,a few big fines and the word gets out fast.

BackBeach out of staters fish commercially for many other species in multiple states. Thats like telling you that you can only fish recreationally and kill your catch in Mass...

BackBeach out of staters fish commercially for many other species in multiple states. Thats like telling you that you can only fish recreationally and kill your catch in Mass...

You beat me to it... Agree 100%

With your rules, no more RI fishing for you, BB. You'll have to stay in Mass for now on. :^)
:fishin:
Although, I'm guessing that you're referring to people who catch fish in RI waters and sell them in Mass.

Doublerunner, well to bad for you if you take offense. My post was directed at people to whom it applies. People trying to change rules to better benifit them, have nothing better than trying to ruin the lives of hard working people....

Backbeach, not everyone from out of state is poaching or ice fishing, some of the worst offenders are in your backyard!

Brian, No Backbeach is refering to getting rid of all the out of staters with commercial permits period. They dont want out of staters coming up and catching THEIR fish. Been trying to get it done for years.

Brian, No Backbeach is refering to getting rid of all the out of staters with commercial permits period. They dont want out of staters coming up and catching THEIR fish. Been trying to get it done for years.

What Mike said sounds good to me

JohnnyD, plain and simple, there are those that play by the rules and those that dont like in everything else...

Makai, if youre gonna make it a gamefish then why be allowed to kill anyfish??? Take away the comm catch but let recs kill theres.

The Decline in the numbers of bass is not to to the 20 some odd days of the Mass Commercial season. That entire biomass is taking a pounding from December through June. Ill say it agian, Many of you guys havent got a clue what goes on down south of you, You just complain when the fish dont show up in new England and blame it on 20 days of commercial season. There is no comparison whatsoever!

Doublerunner, well to bad for you if you take offense. My post was directed at people to whom it applies. People trying to change rules to better benifit them, have nothing better than trying to ruin the lives of hard working people....

Everyone wants the rules to benefit them and you're no different.

I personally support that rec's should only be allowed one fish per outing and I'd dare say only 1 fish per week.

I also think charter boats should be limited to what can be kept on each outing no matter how many passengers they have.

I will also admit to not knowing enough of how commercial fishing works so I will not lump everyone together but I do know human nature. And whether you are commercial or rec or charter there are some people that are responsible and follow guidelines and instincts that will allow for the fishery to survive for generations. And then there are those that only care about themselves for the here and now and don't care what damage they do. And we're not even talking about businesses that kill fish with their pollution and toxins here either.

As I stated earlier I do not want to see any one's livelihood taken away. I do feel if there is an effort on all fronts then it may work. In the short term there may be a moratorium, who knows. Quantity limits and slot limits seem the best way to start. But enforcement on all fronts with stiff penalties that include large fines, jail time, and loss of equipment with well publicized media reports would also go a long way in detracting those that break the law. And the only way to enforce is to have more people out there which would mean higher costs for everyone to fish. When it comes down to it the only people that can have a true effect on improving the stock is those that are fishing for it and if we can't work together and improve it ourselves ( which has already been proven over and over ) then the states and feds will impose stricter regs and higher costs on all of us.

And again I'll say an even bigger problem is the menhaden draggers

Makai, if youre gonna make it a gamefish then why be allowed to kill anyfish??? Take away the comm catch but let recs kill theres.

The Decline in the numbers of bass is not to to the 20 some odd days of the Mass Commercial season. That entire biomass is taking a pounding from December through June. Ill say it agian, Many of you guys havent got a clue what goes on down south of you, You just complain when the fish dont show up in new England and blame it on 20 days of commercial season. There is no comparison whatsoever!

Would it be better if you had 60 days of commercial fishing with the same poundage limits? Let's not focus on the amount of days and instead focus on the amount and size of each catch

I agree that what happens down south needs to be rectified ( and I believe will be as more states come in line ) but don't use what happens elsewhere as an excuse to do it everywhere

As a rec if I catch and keep 1 - 6 fish a week I am not killing off generations of fish for years to come as there are still huge amounts of fish in that pack to still re-generate. As a commercial if you are sitting on top of a large school of fish and take them all out you are also wiping away generations of future fish from that pack. Perhaps then extending the commercial season to a larger amount of days....say 60 or so...but reduce the amount that can be taken daily, weekly, and monthly would go a long way towards not wiping out complete generations of fish

In mass the commercial season is spread out to 20 some odd commercial days over say 5-6 weeks. There are different bodies of fish that show up in different areas dependent on the bait. Fish move, A big body of fish may show up and stay only for a tide, day, week, or until a weather change. Fewer fish have shown up the last 2-3 years. I personally like it harder the better. In any case there is a problem with fewer fish. I wont be one to say that the fish in buzzards bay are wiped out, they just dont show there the last 2 years or so in the numbers they have. Quicks hole hasnt had the fish. Weather, bait deffinatly are factors. The bait showed up in April through May frm NJ through Mass. In June we had unprecedented rain, maybe the bait moved out due to salinity, in either case they didnt come back, and niether did the fish. You cant blame the Mass Commercials for that. There is a big difference recreationally / charters pounding an entire biomass that is staged in its wintering grounds or transitory moving up the coast where they are pounded day to day in huge numbers. Recs in VA probably kill more fish in a week than the entire mass comercial season. Just pound the school day in and day out! Look at the commercial methods for harvesting striped bass down in Md, NC, VA... No pinhookers there! break out the nets boys!
I do believe there is a change in pattern also, alot of fish are staying offshore with the bait, well over 3 miles. Theres few inshore baitfish anymore in NE. Grubbing on crabs, lobsters, and reef fish... They are with the miles of sand eals and herring. Cant blame for no fish on the back beaches to mass commercial either. Some people just cant adapt when it gets harder and you have to change, they dont understand the fish but they want to manage the fishery....Might as well let Obama regulate striped bass...

Perhaps then extending the commercial season to a larger amount of days....say 60 or so...but reduce the amount that can be taken daily, weekly, and monthly would go a long way towards not wiping out complete generations of fish

I've liked The RI comm set up until two years ago, when they closed Fridays and Saturdays (nice job by the weekday guys' lobby to keep the guys like me who work another job all week from selling on weekends). RI season happens twice a year and the daily limit is five (landings Sun-Thursday), instead of the 30 in Mass. Five fish works out good enough to be worth it for part time comms (like myself). Although I'm not sure the guys who depend on the dough would want to give up that bigger limit in Mass. Sounds like they won't have a choice.

Doublerunner, there is a whole different mentality in the south.... When Chesapeake Bay is open in November and December, you cant get a room, house on the northside. If you dont get to the ramp early you are out of luck and The Ramp in Kiptopeke holds more cars than all the southshore ramps in mass combined! Every Charterboat from NC and VA is pounding the bay and rec guys from several states. As soon as they shut the bay down Jan 1 and make it catch and release it is a barren wasteland. Nobody is going down there for catch and release!!! Hotels are empty, no rentals, no charters, tackleshops are closed, all restaurants stores in the area are empty. Need to go look for yourselves.... Just a few of my own observations and my own experience. Not what somebody tells my or what I may have heard....

Brian, That is just to keep it for guys that are Full time commercial. Gotta do what you can to adapt. I do have a full time job myself before Charters and commercial and I still do about 150 days a year on the water. I still do consider my charters and commercial as full time work. If that was all I did I cant see how I could survive paying all expenses, and put away money for healthcare, pension, kids college and so on.... Making it harder and harder to make a living off the water. Its become a rich mans game, thats all it will be if it were a catch and release gamefish only....

Doublerunner, there is a whole different mentality in the south.... When Chesapeake Bay is open in November and December, you cant get a room, house on the northside. If you dont get to the ramp early you are out of luck and The Ramp in Kiptopeke holds more cars than all the southshore ramps in mass combined! Every Charterboat from NC and VA is pounding the bay and rec guys from several states. As soon as they shut the bay down Jan 1 and make it catch and release it is a barren wasteland. Nobody is going down there for catch and release!!! Hotels are empty, no rentals, no charters, tackleshops are closed, all restaurants stores in the area are empty. Need to go look for yourselves.... Just a few of my own observations and my own experience. Not what somebody tells my or what I may have heard....

That will have to be changed. What happens in one area can and does affect the whole striper coast. As I've said we all have to do our part

How close to shore can comm's fish?

I somehow doubt stripersforever is gonna get a warm welcome in the South! The boys down there are trying to get the eez zone opened to 12 miles so they can kill more and it aint commercials....Ive seen boats down there tossing dead keeper bass out of their coolers when they get bigger ones so they can have more meat!

Seems like the Bass is the new Buffalo. Get them while you can.
Of all the fish that are on the brink. This one gets it from both sides.
There are so many one sided opinions as what to do we've become myopic.



C. H.
I have sold fish since 1970. Seen the halcyon days and the barren days. I gave my permit up 2 yrs ago, Just didn't feel like killing them anymore. But that's just me. I wish all states would be hook and line only, with the potential to let every fish breed a few times at least before being killed, but that's not going to happen. It's not a matter of who gets to keep what but keeping the fish population healthy. There are far more issues regarding that problem than just rec vs com. No easy answers.

Makai, I just have a problem with organizations like striper forever who are blaming the state of Striped Bass on Mass Comercial Pin Hookers. They are trying to change the rules so it is easier for rich yuppies to catch fish and have a "Super" day on the water with no regard for anyone else. There are morons who have no clue whatsoever, they just want to go out and catch countless of fish on their fly rods and not work for it.... They have no idea As to all the other factors that are causing the sad state of the striped bass fishery. Shutting down Mass commercial isnt going to make a bit of difference......

Makai, I just have a problem with organizations like striper forever who are blaming the state of Striped Bass on Mass Comercial Pin Hookers. They are trying to change the rules so it is easier for rich yuppies to catch fish and have a "Super" day on the water with no regard for anyone else. There are morons who have no clue whatsoever, they just want to go out and catch countless of fish on their fly rods and not work for it.... They have no idea As to all the other factors that are causing the sad state of the striped bass fishery. Shutting down Mass commercial isnt going to make a bit of difference......

WOW. You just convinced me more than ever of what needs to be done. Looks like you're going to have to heed your own words

ADAPT. 'cuz change is coming

Here in NJ we used to have a great summer fishery. Catch plenty of good sized fish off the surf and boats in June, July, August, September pluggin and eelin. It has been over ten years since that fishery disapeared...
Look at the Cape back beaches the run of migratory big fish from Late August thru november, that has deteriorated since 2002-2003 to being non-existant. Thousand Pound nights off the surf are a distant memory and probably will never come back. ill put stripersforever up there with the seal lovers...
The whole Rhode island Mass shoreline during the summer and fall months is but a single digit fraction of what it used to be.

Cant blame mass commercial for all that....

I always adapt and change, im not one complaining and trying to change the rules....The fishery has changed drastically with many factors causing it. I will always find fish, the people that cant adapt are trying to change the rules to bring the fish to them and in the end it wont make a difference. You always have to go to fish to catch fish....

Change may be coming, but it may not always be for the better.....

Too many different valid reasons to fish, too many different user groups, too many conflicting agendas, too much misinformation, too little accurate information to make good decisions, too much shouting, too many insults, too many closed minds, too much rage against the machine, too much hate.

It is not just the bass that are in trouble.

Makai, I just have a problem with organizations like striper forever who are blaming the state of Striped Bass on Mass Comercial Pin Hookers. They are trying to change the rules so it is easier for rich yuppies to catch fish and have a "Super" day on the water with no regard for anyone else. There are morons who have no clue whatsoever, they just want to go out and catch countless of fish on their fly rods and not work for it.... They have no idea As to all the other factors that are causing the sad state of the striped bass fishery. Shutting down Mass commercial isnt going to make a bit of difference......

I think you need to be careful who you malign in your cause. It's a big, complex mess out there; Numbskull just stated it well above.

"There are morons who have no clue whatsoever, they just want to go out and catch countless of fish on their fly rods and not work for it...."

Change "fly rod" to "fishing rod" and that is what your average fisherman (blue collar and otherwise) wants. If you think otherwise you need to get out of your boat more often. Easy, shore based, and ideally daytime fishing. The blitz fisherman. That's just the reality of your recreational fisherman who hires you for charters, spends money on bait, plugs, tackle and more, buys a boat if he can afford it, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. (We'll ignore the effect he has by killing and keeping fish for the moment but that fact is of course tied tightly to some of the issues at hand...)

What that guy needs is bait along the shoreline since most fisherman don't fish from boats and can't "adapt" to an offshore striper fishery. They also, honestly, don't have the time to put in to follow the fish like you might.

I understand and agree with what you are arguing in a lot of respects about what's wrong with the Stripers Forever approach. Their cause and effect math doesn't entirely add up for me either. I'd just be careful who you kick dirt at as you wage war against them.

It might be good to be aware (and this is just my opinion) that what the general public likely wants really isn't that different from what Stripers Forever wants.

Pete G.... If the fishery changes and the fishery stays offshore there are no regulations you can impose to bring the fishery inshore. It may be decades if ever for that to happen, you never know. How the hell can you force the fishery to come inshore? Whipe out the bait offshore? I may be in the boat more, even though Ive spent thousands of hours over the years on the surf, but I know alot more than you think as to what is going on with the shoreline fishery in more than just one state. The guys may want a blitz, everybody does, especially comm guys! Truth of the matter is times change. The guys in the northeast are complaining about the surf, look at VA and NC. Imagine seeing Miles of gannets diving but the fish dont come onshore, EVER. That is the reality. The surf bites of VA, MD, NC are a thing of the past. What if the same holds true for new england. Off course you always get the stragglers. I will always adapt and change weather I like it or not? You think I like paying $4. a gallon, what about $5 or $6. Seee if you will make it a catch and release only gamefish coast wide. It will look like Kiptopeke VA in January...

Pete G.... Would Saltwaters edge business Begin to Boom if the Made striped Bass a gamefish only. Catch and release only??? I seriously doubt it...

http://www.nefsc.noaa.gov/sos/spsyn/af/sbass/images/fig40_2.gif

Pete G.... Would Saltwaters edge business Begin to Boom if the Made striped Bass a gamefish only. Catch and release only??? I seriously doubt it...

I don't have any interest in a no-take fishery. Just a healthy, accessible fishery for fisherman (rec and comm). That's what's good for MY interests.

Anyways, I'm arguing your cause, indirectly.

It just struck me that you took the classic "divided we fall" type stand; an everyone's against me and the commercials when I just don't see it that way.

I just think there's a LARGE middle of the road that is the average fisherman that has nothing against commercial fishing. Not many people would claim to understand ALL the issues, very few if any do.

My point was I wouldn't want to push that guy into a camp against what you want by basically telling him he's an idiot if he can't adapt. Or maybe explain more clearly why their view or point doesn't hold water instead of assuming they are "rich yuppies", "can't adapt".

For example, I feel the Stripers Forever "fish are more valuable alive then dead" doesn't hold water if the shore fisherman around here can't get at them. I wish they'd use their clout to help understand why baby bunker seem so scarce in the fall.

Just a tactical observation, take it for what it's worth.

Too bad there isn't a "Stripers Foreveryone" to get behind.

My problem is the rec catch down the coast is far greater than the com catch and it isn't enough for the rec guys They want more. They want a gamefish, but they want to be allowed to keep fish to. Give the mass com poundage to other states. Or better yet sell it out for a buck a fish bonus tag. The same people that want that want a 20" slot, they don't need to say more in my opinion. I really believe they don't have a clue in understanding the fishery....
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I really believe they don't have a clue in understanding the fishery....
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I think that would apply to most people every where. It's probably the biggest problem.

I somehow doubt stripersforever is gonna get a warm welcome in the South! The boys down there are trying to get the eez zone opened to 12 miles so they can kill more and it aint commercials....Ive seen boats down there tossing dead keeper bass out of their coolers when they get bigger ones so they can have more meat!

Stripers Forever fully understand this. They know that the Va and NC guys would kill ever fish in the ocean. I'm not a SF member and I am not in full agreement with what they want but I understand what their doing and agree with much of it.

They have one real focus point, stripers become a game fish. They understand that the only way to do that is for recreational fisherman to obtain the controlling voice at ASMFC stripe bass board. Having Mass end commercial fishing is not their end goal. It is just a step towards their end goal. If they can get three states to end commercial fishing the board would now have a lean towards the recreational ficherman. Then it would be possible to gain game fish status.

Most of the comments being made here are only looking at it from the present state of the ASMFC borad make-up and that this is the end point rather then a step towards a goal. Saying that the Mass quota will be given to another state is based on the boards present make up. If Mass changes this will make a real difference, get one or two more states to change, then we would see a real difference.

They also know that as long as the board continues it's present make up it is almost a waste of time to try and get them to reduce the catch numbers. Right now it is a fight to just stop them from increasing the numbers.

So why is what is left of the striped bass population offshore?

Well, gee, what happened to the fish genetically ingrained to feed inshore............eaten for pleasure and profit.
What happened to the menhaden they eat.........taken commercially.
What about the squid.....taken commercially.
What about the scup.......taken commercially.
What about the lobsters......taken commercially.
What about the herring.....killed as commercial bycatch.

As for why there is bait explosion offshore.....well what happened to the fish that eat it?

Cod...........wiped out commercially.
Pollock........hammered commercially.
Tuna......nearly wiped out commercially.
Halibut........wiped out commercially.
Haddock........they're coming back because the enviro's got a judge involved.

Between wiping out codfish and creating an offshore niche full of sand eels......... hammering any breeding size bass that take an inshore route year after year.........and wiping out anything for bass to eat inshore......is it any mystery that what left of the striped bass population is offshore.

The public's demand for seafood and the commercial interests that benefit from that demand (with fishery management in their pocket) has GREATLY diminished the quality of the inshore fishing for all species targeted by recreational fishermen. Nothing wrong with that in general if you don't like to fish. Still, doing so has diminished the quality of the recreational fisherman's lives, and hurt the livelihood of those who depend on them.

Sadly, fishermen (recreational or commercial) are never going to fix this, too much stupidity and greed to put fishery recovery first. As the codfish situation has shown, the best hope are the enviro's and legal system (read CLF).........which is where this is headed soon. We'll live to see the restrictions, but not the benefits.

Why do commercial fishermen from NJ care about what happens in Mass?

Doublerunner, well to bad for you if you take offense. My post was directed at people to whom it applies. People trying to change rules to better benifit them, have nothing better than trying to ruin the lives of hard working people....

Hard working people have destroyed or severly damaged many of our fisheries.

I'm not against commercial fishing. I'm for maximizing the value of the resource for the public good. I'm originally from NJ and I fish there a couple of times a year and I agree with your other post about the number of fish being killed. There are far more chart and private boats fishing for stripers now then there were in the late 60s. Now even the party boats target them. From what I've seen, catch and release of legal fish is not near as common down there as it is here. We're killing to many fish and we need to reduce the numbers. Problem is, it's hard to convince recreational fisherman to reduce their kill when others are allowed to kill for profit. right or wrong it is the arguement I get when I bring up reducing the kill numbers.

Doublerunner, I commercially fish in Mass and charter up the coast. You automatically assume that NJ is all I know....I hear people everywhere blaming the commercial fishery in Mass as causing all the damage to the striped bass fishery when the fishing gets tough. There have been articles down here, written and published by those that dont have a clue. Everybody wants somebody to blame. They have no idea as to what goes on up and down the coast, they just expect to go out and catch all the striped bass they want anytime they want... Times are changing.
Numbskull, sacrifices have to be made both commercially and recrerationally to benifit the striped bass fishery. You can complain and whine all you want about bait. Truth of the matter is there are literally miles of bunker here of the NJ coast, they come on the beach from time to time, but doesnt mean the bass always do, in fact they seldom due. And for those that put their time in and understand the fishery, know when they do and capitalize on it. You cant read that in books. For many miles, that bait is unmolested, didnt mean squat for the inshore fishery. Down in VA and NC the bass are all along with the pogies, Miles and miles of them. Water temp dictates as to them coming in, truth is, they aint coming on the beach where the surf temp is 42-43 degrees. Your going to have to accept the fact that surf fishing isnt what it used to be and probably wont be for time to come. As far as the boat fishing is, it isnt easy by any means, you have to be inovative and adaptive to be consistant. U cant blame the state off striped bass on indescrimit dragging, long lining, gillnetting... The Striped Bass commercial fishery has been regulated much more stringently than the Rec Catches have. There has not been an ounce of accountability on the rec side....

CH I never said NJ is all you know. That is just an assumption on your part

It's like listening to a broken record. Read back on some of my posts. I have repeatedly said we all need to work together and I am all for restrictions on the rec side as well

Reducing kill numbers needs a multi faceted approach which also includes reducing the over killing of menhaden

I really havent got anything else to say.... Im going down to VA this week to fish a tourney, Ill see plenty of dead 30-40 lb breeders. Then Ill be down in January for a few days to fish the midatlantic rockfish tourney, I think that tourney is good for 1000's , (30k+ easy in its hay day), of pounds of dead breeding stock bass in 3 days. Lots of 30-50lb class fish, (Although fewer every year for some strange reason) Dont worry, they dont get sold, a large portion gets wheeled off and donated to food banks, the ones that arent wieghed are fileted... People at food banks want to enjoy striped bass too!

Mid-Atlantic Rockfish Shootout - Fishing Tournament Virginia Beach, VA (http://www.midatlanticrockfishshootout.com/)

You are making a great argument for catch and release only across the board.
The 10% of the fishermen who catch 90% of the fish rec and com probably are not going to have as strong a say in this as you would like.
But fear not,in the true American way it will be studied and paneled to death and by then it will become a token european style fishery.

Numbskull, sacrifices have to be made both commercially and recrerationally to benifit the striped bass fishery. .

You miss the point, my self-certain friend. Just who is going to dictate those sacrifices and when are they going to occur? Surely you (and others like you) have no intent to limit yourselves, you are too proud of your skill in a dying fishery and still profiting too much from it to want any change. Likewise the recreational scene you describe in NJ/VA seems unlikely to volunteer sacrifice. So where is that taking us? Towards another collapse quite possibly.

Shifting the ASMFC bias toward preservation rather than exploitation is the last hope FISHERMEN have of controlling the process. This SF bill in MA is a real chance to move the regulators in that direction. If the ASMFC fails to shift their bias and the fishery collapses (it may not but I wouldn't bet against it), the CLF, Pew trusts, and federal courts will step in to protect the interests of the public at large from the greed of recreational and commercial fishermen alike. Count on it. It won't be pretty......though I doubt you will care by that point.

Totally agree with George, ASFMC focuses on commercial exploitation of every last lb. of biomass for every species it manages.
Unless they do so, we are faced with the only option, litigation.

Comments like those made by cowhunter just proves the point that the only way to stop the massive killing of stripers is through legislation and serious enforcement.

I have copied cowhunter's posts and will be bringing them to the next meeting at my club and I suggest all those who care about what steps to take in the right direction to save the stock do the same

Am I totally crazy here -- when the heck did it become written in stone that Bass Fishing now is in the toilet?
Reading all these posts it seems like there are no bass and the fishery is dieing.

I'm normally not this bold online, but I had a kick-ass '09 season, and so did most all of the guys I hang out with/talk to.

I don't get this.

Am I totally crazy here -- when the heck did it become written in stone that Bass Fishing now is in the toilet?
Reading all these posts it seems like there are no bass and the fishery is dieing.

I'm normally not this bold online, but I had a kick-ass '09 season, and so did most all of the guys I hang out with/talk to.

I don't get this.

Just guessing here, so please excuse me if I'm wrong. But, based in RI and fishing out of Sandwich you likely had a decent season in CCB and Race Point. You were likely helped by the use of hi grade sonar, GPS, radar, and cell phone contacts. You had access to and the knowledge of a remaining center or body of fish that allowed you to be successful. Guys on BI had something similar. Huge areas in between and to the periphery of that body of fish had nothing. THAT is the sign of trouble.

When fish begin to dwindle, it is the periphery and less bait intensive areas that show the strain first. Ask the guys in Maine how the fishing was. The North Shore. Vineyard Sound. Buzzards Bay.

Consider also 30 years ago. Guys would hammer bass all summer in CCB, just like this year........but while they were doing so guys would be hammering bass behind the Vineyard, off Monomoy, the outer cape, the North Shore, the merrimac, NH, Maine, Narragansett, etc.
That no longer happens, even though there are more people fishing with far better fish finding equipment.

Guys like Cow Hunter have a twisted perspective on things. They are smart fisherman and very competitive. With live/dead bait, advanced electronics, developed networks, mobile rigs, and lots of effort they are able to access and hammer the remaining mass of fish quite successfully. They forget that 30-40 years ago, without any of those tools, many many more people were even more successful than they are now.

Not that they would care. The scarcity of fish drives up the value of what they can still catch. It makes their services as a charter captain worth paying for. $800 for a charter is much easier to justify when each customer comes home with 20-30 lbs of fish worth $10-12/lb. Likewise, the travel and gas expense is well worth it for commercial guys when the price of fish is high........and scarcity keeps the price of fish high.

For most people, however, fishing is not about making money or paying customers, it is about a pleasant diversion from the substantial stress in the rest of their lives. A scarcity of fish ruins that for them. Either they can move on to something else, or they can use their numbers and votes to change the system that ignores them..........at the expense of the guys who profit from a depleted resource.

It's like George reads my mind...

" Nuff " said.

BackBeach out of staters fish commercially for many other species in multiple states. Thats like telling you that you can only fish recreationally and kill your catch in Mass...

True, but there's no reciprocity with the commercial bass fishery, which is what I'm whining about. This is obviously due to the fact none of our bordering states have a commercial fishery except RI, which is nearly impossible for out of staters to participate in.
As for the abuses, some of the Mass guys are obviously just as bad as anyone in the cheating dept.

Am I totally crazy here -- when the heck did it become written in stone that Bass Fishing now is in the toilet?


I don't think its remotely close yet, but by the time any meaningful regs are put in place we may look back at today as a missed oppotunity if some coast wide tightening on the recreational fishery doesn't occur in the next several years.

Well, got 30 posts in for my morning reading to catch up on.

I don't think its remotely close yet, but by the time any meaningful regs are put in place we may look back at today as a missed oppotunity if some coast wide tightening on the recreational fishery doesn't occur in the next several years.

It's going to be a missed opportunity if there isn't significant tightening of the rec & comm fisheries AND better protection of the forage.

I am glad I came back to this there is some excellent debate going on here.

No one group is 100 percent correct on this issue but as far as I am concerned the ASMFC will not act conservatively with the fishery. They never will it is up to us as recs or comms to police the fishery and have our voices heard.

Much like what recently happened with addendum two to the Striped Bass Management. It go put down because of overwhelming public outcry against it.

Believe me the guys that have written the bill are not yuppie jerks that just want life to be easier for them to catch fish with their fly rods. The contributors to H796 are From Woods Hole, marine biologists etc.

I am an electrician from MA I have far less of a clue on Marine Fisheries Management than many. I do know the last time we had a summer like we had this year was in the 80's Large fish being pounded off the block out off the rips in MV etc. We all know what happened then. The moratorium. When commercial fishing ended for Striped bass what happened the stocks came back in a Major way. They reopened the comm fishery and we are where we are now. Below average YOY indexes and breeders getting slaughtered.

If it were me in the Mid Atlantic Rock fish tourney and I knew there were guys dumping breeders overboard in lieu of a larger fish. I would not hesitate to report it. Remaining silent on something like that is just as bad as doing it your self. It is fisherman like that, that give us all a bad name.

The same goes for recreational fishermen. Like it or not, we have no "right" to catch and keep striped bass. As a migratory species their utilization is by law controlled by the Federal government. If we don't like it it is Federal not State law that has to change. That isn't likely (you want NC deciding how many fish they can keep?).

Seeing schools of bass killed like that is upsetting, but the fish in that picture are only a fraction of what got killed in the canal this past memorial day.

(Post sound familiar) - Above Posted by numbskull

Numbskull, am I so twisted??
Is it different than me wanting stripersforever making a decision on whats best for Mass Com guys? Giving everybody 20" slot limits? I dont know anybody that wants 20" slot limits, dont see that as being part of a solution.
And its all comm guys killing the fish in the canal too!

Im not disagreeing with everything you said, I posted alot of my Observations from experience up and down the coast. My problem is the blame is just going on the comms when they in no way kill as many fish as the rec guys. Just look at all the info on NOAA. I dont agree with that 100% because I know that the numbers are much higher. At least the comms hit their number and shut it down.

Alot of those areas you mentioned were dead, most of the time, in July and August. I also did have some of my biggest numbers EVER in areas you mention while people were at home on the internet complaining about no fish.

There are more variables that you are overlooking. There are Way more people fishing for bass then ever. Weather patterns, bait patterns all have changed, all contributing circumstances to what striped bass do. Migration has changed. The EEZ zone protects bass.You may not like the fact that the fish arent holding to their summer patterns, plain and simple. They come through in May and June and dont stop and stay. All those areas you mentioned had a great spring, just the fish didnt stay. For whatever reason there was nothing to hold em there. I guess scup wasnt enough. All the surf guys were happy as could be on Cutty in the Spring remember. Unfortunately surf guys cant go everywhere the fish go, I know because Ive done it since I can remember and its what I love most. So the fish dont hold in the areas you mention in July and August after you had a spectacular run in buzzards bay and vineyard sound in the spring. I know those fish didnt get wiped out. September and October the fish came back through, maybe all not the same route. (In Nj we get the monsters in the spring and miles of rats in the fall. Those fish get wiped out? because they do seem to come through in the spring). Funny I didnt see as many people fishing their in the fall but I can tell you it was not a barren wasteland. Fishing a tourney on a few rockpiles in vinyard sound and nomans I had more fish than I wanted to count, they may not have been monsters but really good number to fish to 25lbs....

I may not have fished 40 years ago so I cant say from experience as to what happened then when the fish were stacked everywhere you went....

Everything I wrote and posted I wrote from my own experiences and observations and not other peoples complaints. I can sit home and complain or go fishing. Your very fortunate to have fishing theraputic for you and something you can selfishly enjoy, been there, done that. Unfortunately I dont always share the same, its not always enjoyable for me when its work. Im forced to go when I dont really want to when its work. Blowin 30, rain, cold, snotty. I will say that I have found it rewarding when I put smiles on many of my clients faces and given em' once in a lifetime trophies along with trips they will never forget.

Im really gonna stop rambling. People want change and change is a coming anyway, maybe do with bass like the fluke, closed zones like the red snapper fishery in the south, divers help make that decision so they can enjoy watching fish swim. There is alot on the table. Me Ill just roll with the punches, no need to complain...

On a side note, They do have pay to fish fish farms where you can catch fish on every cast if it ever came down to it...

The above paragraph was posted by Numbskull... I cut and Pasted it.

Incase You wanted to post my writings at your club :-))

I am an electrician from MA I have far less of a clue on Marine Fisheries Management than many. I do know the last time we had a summer like we had this year was in the 80's Large fish being pounded off the block out off the rips in MV etc. We all know what happened then. The moratorium. When commercial fishing ended for Striped bass what happened the stocks came back in a Major way. They reopened the comm fishery and we are where we are now. Below average YOY indexes and breeders getting slaughtered.
Before I get ripped apart - ABOVE POSTED BY JACKBASS
JackBass
As you said, you have far less of a clue on marine management than many, but you wrote over a hundred letters. I know your trying to do what you think is the right thing on what little facts you have. You are on one extreme with stripers forever and that is shut down mass. Why because they are one of the commercial states that have a legit reporting system when the recs have none. Would such a fuss be made if there was no poundage quoata and you were allowed to sell fish commercially in Mass from July 1 to aug 31???
What happened in the 80's is in no way the same and the summer in block isnt what caused it. Do you even know what kind of limits to commercials and recs had back then??? Or what kind of regulations, dragging, gillnetting etc???
You do knowWe do have an EEZ which is basically closed waters for striped bass, did we have that in the 80's. you do know that they shut Chesapeake bay down from Jan to may??? There are alot more measures in Place.
Unfortunately the inshore fishery has seen a decline in many areas, just the same it has flourished in others.
If youre gonna fish the same spot year after year and hope they show, well thats on you...

Preach your story to the Crab guys down south, they are blaming the striped bass for eating all the crab. They say there is way to many striped bass.


You gonna hand out my posts at your club too ?!?!?!

Hey Cowhunter.....I'm going to INVITE you to my club!:buds:

Thanks Bud, Ill make sure to bring my posts with me!

If I saw any one, on a boat or on land, dumping fish overboard to keep another one instead, I would call and report them immediately. But then again, only people who care about the stock would do that. Those that don't are just users and abusers

Gee, I don't belong to any clubs, but I have no problem with you pointing out that I feel the recreational sector also is a huge part of the problem.

The real problem, however, is neither the recreational or commercial sector......it is the attitude of individuals in each group. As I see it you and the SF guys you hate are one of a kind. Both happy to shaft the other to improve their own lot.

A united voice from the recreational and commercial sector to the ASMFC asking for more conservative management (to protect us from ourselves) is what is needed. Somehow I don't see you as likely to be interested in that approach.

I doubt this bill will pass. I am very glad it was filed, however. At very least it may scare some sense into the ASMFC and the commercial sector that for too long has gleefully ignored the impact of their actions on the average schmuck fisherman. A better balance is needed than what we have now.

Hey JackBass, curious this was a horrible year for bluefish for me in Mass during July and August. Last year and previous years where I was guaranteed 200-300lbs as bycatch, and countless lost cause they would just bite through the damn floro, this year I couldnt seem to put a catch together. I really never was targeting them, but the bycatch was nice. I mean, this year on a good day, Maybe 80lbs or so. some times I would go days without seeing one! Areas that were stacked with bluefish, (Quicks Hole, Gayhead, etc), were void of life! (I did happen to notice the lack of bait). I will confess, I did get top dollar, some days .50!!! I dont know why they didnt come back to the same area in stay, but I do want to know if you and your marine bioligist freinds are doing anything about it? Maybe a Bluefishforever kind of thing? I mean, here we are in December and the mass Commercial quota is only 58% filled?? This is absurd, There is definately a big problem? The recs killing all the fish or the comms?
Funny, in the Fall the rhode Island coast Had miles and miles of them from watch hill to Matuinuck, they were eating all the bait on the shoreline. In early May I did notice that there were miles of Monster Bluefish coming up the jersey coast, I couldnt get away from them, big bruisers. I couldnt imagine why big bluefish would be on Anchovies, when in another 2 weeks they can have all the bunker they want! This is all so very confusing?!??!??? Did they ever show up at ur Spot?? Anybody??

Numbskull, weather you understand it or not, I am both commercial and Recreational.. Im all for conservation, Hell I belong to the CCA, Have done plenty for Charity and conservation, way more than most. Ive had 50 and 40lbers released.... Ive even donated 20-30lb bass to the Norwalk Aquarium. I have live releases all but one fish in the last few tournaments I fished. Im not the one that wants only commercial or only recreational. I just dont think its fair everybody is blaming mass commercial pinhookers when the recs are more at fault. Im sorry bud, I agree with some you say, but you are wrong to blame mass commercials just because the fish arent where you want them. Hell I would love for striped bass to be in NJ from Late March through January LIKE THEY USED TOO. I would waste gas money driving to Mass or NC. I may not like it but Im not gonna sit around either and hope the patterns change to my benifit and the fish come to me...

Your Self-Certain Friend

I doubt this bill will pass. I am very glad it was filed, however. At very least it may scare some sense into the ASMFC and the commercial sector that for too long has gleefully ignored the impact of their actions on the average schmuck fisherman. A better balance is needed than what we have now.

Give it time, G. It may not pass the first time around but that's not the plan, IMO. Its the beginning of a ground swell...ground swells start with filings, consensus building, and vision.
The impending angler(shmuck) registry/license is going to help this along in time, IMO.

Doublerunner, more than one person reported that incident....

I just dont think its fair everybody is blaming mass commercial pinhookers when the recs are more at fault.

Thats not what anyone here is saying. We're saying the regulations, collectively, need tweaking in order to sustain and improve things longer term.

Half the time Numbskull doesn't even have hooks on his plugs, so don't go by what he says...:angel:

Back Beach How can you say that?? Its exactly what its about Stripersforever is attempting to shut down Mass commercial. Refer to first post......Its write there in the article, go to the website... They want to shut down mass commercial fishing entirely and give the recs one guy? How would you like if it was both, make mass just like the eez??? Comon...

http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripertalk/attachments/stripertalk/31955d1235002982-back-when-stripers-equated-dollar-signs-me-feb1809-001.jpg

Thats not what anyone here is saying. We're saying the regulations, collectively, need tweaking

Posted by BackBeach - above

Guess Tweeking is banning commercial harvesting in Mass??

Half the time Numbskull doesn't even have hooks on his plugs, so don't go by what he says...

(I didnt want to say anything but I have heard this from a few people - Said hooks hurt the poor fish)

"Tweaking" to me would be lowering the recreational daily bag to one fish and implementing a slot limit or larger minimum size if its deemed necessary. This can be accomplished without introducing game fish status and banning commercial sale.

"Tweaking" could also include more restricive measures such as a lower commercial quota and larger minimum size if its deemed necessary. Although I dislike some of what takes place as a result of having a commercial season, it does provide income for some who honestly rely on it.

(I didnt want to say anything but I have heard this from a few people - Said hooks hurt the poor fish)

That's not the reason, he just doesn't want shleps like me accusing him of depleting the local stocks...

Cowhunter the Quota was in fact increased coast wide for Bluefish and Spiny dogfish I believe last spring maybe that had something to do with it. I did see large blue fish this year. However in General it was down in quantity of fish. The Blues still did the traditional morning Run at Race Point and I saw plenty of them along the Rocks in Rhody, but the blues were not as prevalent in the past through the dog days. No doubt.

Doublerunner, more than one person reported that incident....

:btu:

Blues??? I only saw blues once this year. They must be getting wiped out somewhere. Oh yeah the 3 I caught killed off the stock

Seriously though. As I have said from the beginning...a multi faceted approach that has slot limits and restrictions on quantities from both rec and commercial. And also the complete elimination of dragging for menhaden

As far as the rec goes perhaps there needs to be different classifications to distinguish between charters, personal boats not chartering, and non-boaters

I personally hate all fishing tournaments whether they are from shore or on boat. All those tournaments are are fish-kills and as far as I am concerned they should be banned completely

Seriously though. As I have said from the beginning...a multi faceted approach that has slot limits and restrictions on quantities from both rec and commercial. And also the complete elimination of dragging for menhaden

1. Why does it have to be an F'ing slot.
Make it 1 fish. 36" and things will improve! No need to do a 20-26", alternate Tuesdays with one over 48" on a Friday slot limit. The average person, myself included is an idiot. Keep It Simple!

2. Does anyone actually drag for menhaden, or are you spouting off on what you don't know?
Ban reduction. The pogie debate is oft rehashed, and searchable here, I'm not going to waste my slow typing on rewriting the past. The controlled seining in local waters is pretty closely monitored, and there are tons of pogies in the bay after the boats leave....
go after Omega protein, not Ark Bait et al....

think about it. 1 fish @36" and I bet you cut the number of fish caught and kept by rec angers by 35% (not 50% b/c I don't think everyone keeps 2 all the time, and I don't think as many people catch "Keepers" at 36" than the would at 28".

@ 1/day 36" every 6-pack charter boat goes from being able to take 26 fish / day (assuming two charters/ day) down to 14 fish/day (assuming the capt/crew each keep a limit/day). Think about how many charters are maxed out during a season at any given place on the coast. Or, think of it this way. For 1000 charters with 6 guys keeping a limit, you go from 12000 fish down to 6000 fish (not counting captain and crew). Apply similar reduction to rec boats as well. Apply this up and down the coast. The numbers saved will DWARF the commercial harvest.

UP ENFORCEMENT! Make sure commercials are selling bass to legit dealers ONLY, and make the penalties very stiff for buyer/seller not in compliance.

Up the limit/reduce the season on pre-spawn wintering fish...

Last; I would wager that the number of rec bass caught and killed (not accounting for the release mortality of every light tackle jamoke fishing fish on 12lb gear in deeper water) in just a few weeks this year at BI was vastly larger than the entire RI quota! Lets get some good numbers on release mortality, and some good estimates of recreational fish caught and killed by itself, no estimates of mortality just # of dead fish period. If that means reporting, and a license/registry so be it, but be careful what we wish for. If it works, the rec numbers are going to jump way up IMHO!

I posted the 1 fish @36" would make a huge difference. I really have no idea where on earth they come up with a 20" slot?? You think the people that suggested a 20" slot know what they are talking about???
24"-27.99" slot was done in NJ and it was a disaster.... Va still has a slot, but its for a limited time..

The slot could be an effective tool provided there's alot of fish in the slot range. The slot size can be adjusted as needed.

1 fish at 36" is great, but it was used as the last leg of an emergency measure last time it was enacted to protect a specific year class.(1982)

As for saving the bait, I'm still of the belief that bass will eat whatever they can get in their mouths, including themselves. Scarcity or abundance of bait is more a localized issue than a coastwide issue.
Many years ago during "herring" season I landed and opened up a real fat fish...it was loaded with sea robins while there were dense schools of herring available nearby.

I am completely convinced now that this whole thread is just a money issue.

Regarding the slot sizes I think the size for boat fishermen for rec and for commercial should be different than shore fishermen. Let's face it boats have the technology and ability to get onto large schools and stay on them as they move. Shore guys can not. But if they're all lumped together then that's okay as well. If it's a slot then all fish need to be measured which means ( hopefully ) getting rid of nets because nets would kill too many fish that would not be appropriate size

1 fish at 36" is not bad but I don't know that that is the best solution. It doesn't have to be an "F'ing slot". A regular old "slot" all by itself is okay with me.

Menhaden is a huge industry. Ever seen the ocean bottom before and after seining? it goes from a robust living city to a desert....like an atom bomb wiped it out. With no structure and weeds the baitfish do not return and without baitfish no predators return. Menhaden also gobble up a lot of the pollutants in the ocean. I believe it's a huge problem and one that should be banned

Up enforcement...agreed

Up the limit on pre-spawn and wintering fish....no. Should be banned

Accurate numbers for mortality from rec fishermen. Definitely

Many years ago during "herring" season I landed and opened up a real fat fish...it was loaded with sea robins while there were dense schools of herring available nearby.

Hah! I knew it. The effing striped bass are eating all my sea robins. Well that changes it. Give me an eel, I'm gonna go wipe the bazturds out.

Cowhunter, I can't figure this all out. I agree that dead fish are dead fish and recreational anglers kill more fish than commercials. Of course commercials kill a lot more fish per angler than the recs but then the nonfishing public benefits so who is "right"? I don't claim to know. Likewise, you have got me confused.
On one hand you paint yourself as a mighty chief of bass killers and relish flaunting that in the face of those less well endowed, then you turn around and paint yourself as a conservationist, altruist, philanthropist, and true friend of all God's small creatures (other than bunker).
All I can say is that I'm sure you are a good fisherman, smart guy, and interesting person. Best of luck in your tournament.

I have been a commercial rod and reel fisherman since 1972. I have held licenses in RI and MA since licensing was instituted in both states. I file income taxes on all sales of fish. As an aside, I fish recreationally for stripers when they can’t be sold (with a fly rod/light bait-casting I might add). I care deeply for the welfare of ALL fish. I participated in all the striped bass discussion/ forums, etc., in the early 80’s that led to the current regulations promulgated by the AFMSC.
The commercial striped bass fishery has been held to a fixed cap (poundage allowed) for at least 8 or 9 years; it has not increased and is monitored factually. The recreational catch has increased exponentially during that period. People whose job it is to monitor/ regulate the fishery are well aware of that. In MY view, there are several reasons for the recreational increase. Other fish aren’t as “glamorous”, i.e., bluefish, scup, tautog, etc. Another factor, striped bass are a great tasting fish.
In the 70’s, most people I knew were selling bass…..a lot of people did, so they could support their boats, slips, and fondness for fishing. Nowadays, I know few people who fish commercially in both states (they’re just aren’t that many, i.e., licensing procedures, socio-economics, etc). Back then, bluefish, weakfish, tautog, fluke, winter flounder, cod, Pollack, took up the slack. Most of the charter boat industry was trolling rag mops and umbrella rigs for bluefish, chunking for tuna…rarely was the day that the bulk of the charter industry was targeting bass. There were a few at the Rip at Block, the Race in LI Sound, and probably a more dedicated fleet at the Pigs, Chatham, etc.
Nowadays, because the striped bass fishery is in such better shape than it was in the 70, 80’s, more and more recreational fisherman dedicate their effort towards them. Look at spots like SW Point, Ledge, Block Island on a weekend…or Valiant Rock in LI Sound, or Montauk. The East Coast charter industry has dedicated most of their efforts on striped bass…again, take a look at the SW side of Block, Montauk, the Race ( also the proliferation of small boat chartering in inshore bays and sound), Peaked Hill in P-Town, Monomoy…The pressure on striped bass is far greater than anything I saw “back in the old days”….I don’t have any problem with this, the fishery is a resource for ALL fishermen…just don’t blame the commercial rod and reel fisherman (as in MA) for all that is wrong with striped bass. In my eyes, the current situation looks like a ”fish grab” by a certain segment of the fishing community.
I do not see the catastrophic shortage of bass that is discussed in this and other threads….granted, ups and downs in the total biomass are part of the overall fishery. I see a lot of small bass in the early spring in Narragansett Bay (light tackle) and also with pogies during the commercial RI season (in Narragansett Bay). While fishing in MA, I caught a large amount of undersize (commercial limit) bass during the season. If anything, the problem for me and others was the difficulty in finding bait (menhaden).
What baffles me is the utmost disdain that a certain fragment of the recreational sector has for the commercial striped bass fisherman (and sometimes ALL commercial fishermen). Most fishermen I know do it part-time to support their income…just as the part-time carpenter, plumber, landscaper, tax preparer, etc. do, to support their way of life. That is how our capitalistic system works. Also, those who call for half their income come from commercial fishing, would be putting the bulk of the commercial fisherman out of business.
I hate to be long winded, but I had to offer my take on this issue. I did my part for conservation in the early 80’s when the moratorium was in effect (as ALL of us did)- because of that and because we now have laws and commissions which oversee the fishery, we have reached this point where there is a free for all over who gets the biggest share of the pie. All this, because of a well-managed fishery ,that was brought back from near disaster.

-jmac

I have been a commercial rod and reel fisherman since 1972. I have held licenses in RI and MA since licensing was instituted in both states. I file income taxes on all sales of fish. As an aside, I fish recreationally for stripers when they can’t be sold (with a fly rod/light bait-casting I might add). I care deeply for the welfare of ALL fish. I participated in all the striped bass discussion/ forums, etc., in the early 80’s that led to the current regulations promulgated by the AFMSC.
The commercial striped bass fishery has been held to a fixed cap (poundage allowed) for at least 8 or 9 years; it has not increased and is monitored factually. The recreational catch has increased exponentially during that period. People whose job it is to monitor/ regulate the fishery are well aware of that. In MY view, there are several reasons for the recreational increase. Other fish aren’t as “glamorous”, i.e., bluefish, scup, tautog, etc. Another factor, striped bass are a great tasting fish.
In the 70’s, most people I knew were selling bass…..a lot of people did, so they could support their boats, slips, and fondness for fishing. Nowadays, I know few people who fish commercially in both states (they’re just aren’t that many, i.e., licensing procedures, socio-economics, etc). Back then, bluefish, weakfish, tautog, fluke, winter flounder, cod, Pollack, took up the slack. Most of the charter boat industry was trolling rag mops and umbrella rigs for bluefish, chunking for tuna…rarely was the day that the bulk of the charter industry was targeting bass. There were a few at the Rip at Block, the Race in LI Sound, and probably a more dedicated fleet at the Pigs, Chatham, etc.
Nowadays, because the striped bass fishery is in such better shape than it was in the 70, 80’s, more and more recreational fisherman dedicate their effort towards them. Look at spots like SW Point, Ledge, Block Island on a weekend…or Valiant Rock in LI Sound, or Montauk. The East Coast charter industry has dedicated most of their efforts on striped bass…again, take a look at the SW side of Block, Montauk, the Race ( also the proliferation of small boat chartering in inshore bays and sound), Peaked Hill in P-Town, Monomoy…The pressure on striped bass is far greater than anything I saw “back in the old days”….I don’t have any problem with this, the fishery is a resource for ALL fishermen…just don’t blame the commercial rod and reel fisherman (as in MA) for all that is wrong with striped bass. In my eyes, the current situation looks like a ”fish grab” by a certain segment of the fishing community.
I do not see the catastrophic shortage of bass that is discussed in this and other threads….granted, ups and downs in the total biomass are part of the overall fishery. I see a lot of small bass in the early spring in Narragansett Bay (light tackle) and also with pogies during the commercial RI season (in Narragansett Bay). While fishing in MA, I caught a large amount of undersize (commercial limit) bass during the season. If anything, the problem for me and others was the difficulty in finding bait (menhaden).
What baffles me is the utmost disdain that a certain fragment of the recreational sector has for the commercial striped bass fisherman (and sometimes ALL commercial fishermen). Most fishermen I know do it part-time to support their income…just as the part-time carpenter, plumber, landscaper, tax preparer, etc. do, to support their way of life. That is how our capitalistic system works. Also, those who call for half their income come from commercial fishing, would be putting the bulk of the commercial fisherman out of business.
I hate to be long winded, but I had to offer my take on this issue. I did my part for conservation in the early 80’s when the moratorium was in effect (as ALL of us did)- because of that and because we now have laws and commissions which oversee the fishery, we have reached this point where there is a free for all over who gets the biggest share of the pie. All this, because of a well-managed fishery ,that was brought back from near disaster.


-jmac

Menhaden is a huge industry. Ever seen the ocean bottom before and after seining? it goes from a robust living city to a desert....like an atom bomb wiped it out. With no structure and weeds the baitfish do not return and without baitfish no predators return.

Menhaden also gobble up a lot of the pollutants in the ocean. I believe it's a huge problem and one that should be banned

Up the limit on pre-spawn and wintering fish....no. Should be banned


It's an F'ing slot b/c w/ bass I haven't seen a study that really shows it is the best thing.
Just up the size back to 36" and there will be less fish killed, which is the goal, right?

You are confusing seining and dragging. In my other life I worked in a small part of a study on the impacts of gear to the bottom, and you're right in some bottom types it is very detrimental. that's dragging, though, not seining.

The ocean pollutant argument was bad science RISAA tried to pass off. If people read the menhaden symposium report, THE pogy experts talked and put most of those claims to rest. very interesting conference a year or so ago.

I meant make the limit tighter on pre-spawn fish, not more allowed to be caught.

The part that I don't understand about commercial fisheries management is how trawling is regulated and the effect of bycatch on the fisheries. This seems like it has way more impact and is far less visible than any of the other methods of commercial fishing. Some frieds kid spent a year or two as a fisheries observer and said that the waste was incredible. What that means in the big picture I don't know.

Just to stir the pot, most recreational fishermen struggle to catch a 36" fish.....many have never even seen a 36" fish. Letting a casual fisherman have a realistic chance to take home a fish to feed and poison his family with is every bit as valid a management goal as lining the pockets of the guys who sell lots of 40 lb fish to feed and poison the public. Granted, it would mean implementation of a recreational season to control catch numbers.....but what good is an open season to a guy who only catches 26" fish? I'm not advocating it, but what is the rational against it?

Just to stir the pot, most recreational fishermen struggle to catch a 36" fish.....many have never even seen a 36" fish. Letting a casual fisherman have a realistic chance to take home a fish to feed and poison his family with is every bit as valid a management goal as lining the pockets of the guys who sell lots of 40 lb fish to feed and poison the public. Granted, it would mean implementation of a recreational season to control catch numbers.....but what good is an open season to a guy who only catches 26" fish? I'm not advocating it, but what is the rational against it?

Numby:
my argument is the fish are that much older (8" = 4 years if memory serves) so that's 4 more spawns before they can be taken out of the spawning biomass... make it 36" rec and commercial....

All this, because of a well-managed fishery ,that was brought back from near disaster.
-jmac

Jmac, your post is a reasonable and good one but it presupposes that the fishery is in fact "well-managed". Right or wrong, the people pushing this bill do not agree that is the case and fear another collapse unless something changes. Forcing the ASMFC to change priorities is what they are after. Throwing commercial fisherman under the bus to get it is the best way they see of accomplishing that change. It is much more (I think) about getting rid of MA's commercial bias in their representation to the ASMFC (and thereby changing the balance of the whole board) than a "resource grab". The people I know who are active in SF (and probably the membership in general) are not interested in keeping fish.....their goal is MORE fish. Selfish? Yup, but not in the way most commercial voices paint it. If the commercial lobby could agree that more fish for everyone is a good goal I suspect the bill/issue would disappear.

As for your point about people hating all commercial fishing in general, I think again you are mistaken. Most people like to buy and eat fish. It is the mismanagement of the fisheries (based on short term commercial profit) that results in long term stock collapses and high cost that people resent.

Numby:
my argument is the fish are that much older (8" = 4 years if memory serves) so that's 4 more spawns before they can be taken out of the spawning biomass... make it 36" rec and commercial....

I suspect it would help greatly by reducing the recreational catch, but probably less so with the commercial catch. Now if they created a commercial/recreational slot limit, say 34-42", then I could see it.

From my perspective, I feel the large female bass are too valuable as breeders, carriers of genetic traits for size, and important to the quality of the recreational fishery to be eaten. But surely that is because that works for me (I like letting them go more than eating them). If my family and I liked bass, probably I'd see it differently. If I needed to earn extra money from fishing I'd see it differently as well.

Does everyone here understand that in Maryland and Virginia the size limits for recreational stripers is 18-28", two fish a day most of the season. They do limit the taking of large fish using seasons and limit of one fish a day. Just think how many small fish are being kept in these two prime striper states.

The main justification for the slot limit is to use more of the male fish resource.

Now that a license system is being put in place I would like to see a tag system, something like the one used for deer in many states. When you buy your license you get 5 tags that allow you to keep five fish over 36". Then the daily limit would be one fish a day 26-32" or the one tagged fish. You would need to put the tag on the fish immediately in a way that destroys the tag for a second use.

Now that a license system is being put in place I would like to see a tag system, something like the one used for deer in many states. When you buy your license you get 5 tags that allow you to keep five fish over 36". Then the daily limit would be one fish a day 26-32" or the one tagged fish. You would need to put the tag on the fish immediately in a way that destroys the tag for a second use.

I don't think that could be implemented. Too impractical. Too many people would ignore or just not get trained.

......and...... a major reduction of the recreational catch would drastically reduce the amount of fish (striped bass) killed....furthermore, when I proposed the creation of a "new" fishing user group of the the striped bass pie at ASMFC meetings a number of years back...a new sector"Charter Commercial"(by the way a huge group-as indicated by JMac and Cow Hunter that kill numerous fish in large numbers)-the huge charter boat lobby did not approve......it is so obivous .......the recreational and "charter commercials" are decimating the stripers......just open one's eyes...take a look at the nearly 24 7 hit on the stripers taking place along the East Coast..........these sectors are out of control..remember the commercial cap has been frozen for years........the recreational/charter commercial catch have skyrocketed to new heights......and let us all user groups share the resource.........and....the resource grab that is circulating....is in total disgregard for multiple use wise use of the striped bass resource.........everyone involved should be concerned that this excessive disharmony among striped bass resource users...is perfect cannon fodder for extremist enviro groups............we careful, the doors that might open will slap all striped bass fisherman in the face...........share the resource..don't sqauander it................................................ .....................................

It's time to put Omega protein and others like them out of business. They purse seine off shore and of course they are taking all the Menhaden to make millions of dollars off of. As they work in groups with their huge nets they take in all sorts of other fish...like stripers...that are feeding on the menhaden. The stripers get crushed under the weight of tons and tons of menhaden and die. The dead fish are tossed back in the ocean as a by product of the menhaden catch

We need to send letters and emails to our state's legislators to get this practice to stop.

Trapperpierre, You are correct Charter / Guide / Headboats do not have their catch reported and they should be on a seperate category or under recreational with a reporting system that is documenented. I am a charter Guide and it is recs that I take out. I think that number should be knocked down to one fish at 36" per person. I know that stripersforever has no clue what the catch is, none whatsover. They do make sure they know the Comm catch...
MikeToole, I am very aware that MD, and VA have a slot limit, mentioned that VA has one in one of the posts, and NJ used to. Do you have an idea how many shore fisherman have acces to em??They keep the bay open in the fall for basically November and december, got 6 weeks to get em BY BOAT then they shut down the entire chesapeake bay til May, alot of fish are up north by then. MD is a bit different. Its open now in VA, your allowed one slot and one over 28". (The ocean fish you are allowed 2 at 28") Slots kill way more fish, way more, the tonage doesnt change the amount of fish do. Numbskull would get his wish and way more people than now, The average Joe, would be killing these fish like they did here in NJ, its a big mistake.
Guys attack me as a mass commercial guy, I just see things from all views because I do charters, and fish recreationally. I see what goes on up and down the coast and Im saying what I thing is going on and what I think is wrong. No Offense DOUBLERUNNER, but I fished the Surf up and down the coast and pulled fish off the Surf in every state from Maine to NJ, I put in way more time then you ever did. You cant learn at your club and books what you can learn from experience.
There are extreme views for rec guys, such as STRIPERSFOREVER, which clearly state to ban all commercial Harvesting for striped bass. Shame on them! On the other end of the Spectrum we have the diehard commercials who wants to kill everything in the ocean by any means necesarry and Sell it! You just have to have a balance, These extreme views are WRONG.
Makai stated this thread is all about money.... Well Yeah...Am I so different from Pete G - Saltwaters Edge??? Who profits from mostly rec guys with some comms Im sure...How would he react if they were closing down the shoreline / waters of newport, prohibiting targeting of striped bass??? How many surf guys would be up in arms? Alot of people make money off striped bass, plug builders, book writers, tackle shop owners, the list goes on and on. Some are fortunate to go out and just have fun..

Water must be getting to me....Ill stop rambling...I fish striped bass from March through January...

The thing I don't get, is why do you need to supplement your salary with commercial fishing? There are plenty of legit commerical fishermen out there who rely on the ocean to provide for their families. And they can't fall back on writing speeding tickets if they need a push, so why should you be able to sell their fish?

If all states made it necessary to provide proof that commercial fishing made up more than %50 their income, this debate would be moot.

-Dave

I do agree that the rec needs to do their share as well. Thinks about this....if commercial is banned completely how many of those guys will make up for it with charter businesses? And if those are not regulated then it could be worse.

I think some of the wording can be mis-leading to some. A lot of people think when you use the term "rec" fisherman all they think of is the guy taking his kid and fishing from the shore. All the party boats and charter boats are considered rec as well. So separate classifications may be needed to spell it out a bit more specifically.

But regardless of that, as I have stated from the beginning, we all need to do our part. This should not all come off the backs of the commercial guys and I think if the commercial guys worked together with the "on shore" rec guys then we could also limit what the "boat" recs take in

Also, by establishing the license registry and more people having to pay to fish the monies raised should go to more enforcement.

And we really need to get rid of the netting of menhaden. This is a huge problem and if we can't eliminate it then there should be tighter restrictions on amounts and also how they are caught so that there is no by-product kill offs and/or damage to the oceans eco-system

from another forum

You have some really nice fish up there...and about this time of year they migrate down towards us, here in Virginia, thankfully for you most of them stay miles and miles offshore safe from my treble hooks...however...


This picture was taken 9-11 miles offshore, approximately 13-19 vessels and their tenders were in the process of harvesting tens of thousands of pounds of striper forage...


Quote:

I witnessed a rape!
Today, me and Tim did a little bit of work at the boat and decided to take her out and stretch her legs for a minute. For about the past two weeks, there has been a very large area of menhaden, stripers, and blues out off Virginia Beach. Me and Tim figured that since we were out anyways, we might as well see if we can C&R some blues and stripers on light tackle- with blues being our primary target.
When they first showed up, they were 25 or so miles out. The large schools have been inching their way closer and closer to legal fishing grounds since their arrival from the north and I would have expected to see stripers and blues in legal waters this weekend, IF I hadnt seen what I saw today.
This photo does not do it justice. 7-9 miles straight out of Rudee there was the entire omega fleet RAPING the ocean. The entire horizon was loaded with net boats. I counted somewhere between 13 and 17 of the big boats and a whole bunch more of the tenders. Spread over about two miles, nothing was safe. Thousands of birds feeding and so much death in the water that four miles downcurrent, there was still a scumline of menhaden slime on the water.
I will bet that our school of stripers and blues, which days ago were so thick you couldnt keep a bait in the water, will be gone- and I think you can probably imagine where they went.
Why is this legal?
Thanks again Omega. You suck.
Omega is slaughtering them...they feed on our offshore schools of menhaden and end up trapped in miles of purse seines and end up being crushed and suffocated under millions of pounds of menhaden in OMEGA PROTEINS nets, then released dead to sink to the bottom after OMEGA has suctioned out all the menhaden from their nets... PISSED OFF? SO ARE WE...CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSMAN/SENATOR...put pressure on Virginias Legislature to shut down OMEGA PROTEIN and cease this raping...

and more on menhaden

Omega's lobbyist donate millions to the legislature - Senators and Congressman. This has been going on for years on end.

The Virginia legislative session begins January 13th 2010. Watermen and fishermen raise hell year after year. Over the last three years they were appeased with a cap on tonnage. But thats about it. Reedsville screams about the 200 plus workers who will be without jobs but really its the humps in office who take the $$ under the derby in political tradeoffs from some other BS.
The RFA and CCF guys should be lauded and applauded. They wont stop just because it seems futile. Constant pressure and public scrutiny may change status quo. Its not like its going un-noticed any more.

Its a no win situation here, this board is so biased it isnt even funny. Ive been on here since 2000 and it really is waste of time to post here...Im done. Enjoy the Canal...

Its a no win situation here,



this board is so biased it isnt even funny.
Ken, maybe some members are but the board is NOT






calm down everyone please

that kind of thing touches nerves Dave

and that kind of thing can never happen as long as we have a Constitution.
This is America, you can't dictate who can make a living a certain way, that is rediculous and every time I hear it brought up I think it is rediculous.

"their fish" come on, the fish belong to all of us , it is a natural resource.

Cowhunter, no need to run away mad, you state your reasoning and others have debated, let's not all get carried away please.

I don't agree with this Dave. Fishing income can be highly arbitrary based on many factors, which is why next to nobody does it exclusively.

With specific regard to the Mass season, I read out of 3700 plus permit holders, only 100 or so report catching over 3000# of bass annually. Obviously most guys are using it to subsidize an expensive hobby. This means most guys are selling fish for the "wrong" reason, but the free market economy we live in permits this to happen as it does with most industries, thankfully.

Missed my point Bruce.

I don't really think of the fish as anyone's fish. Cowhunter is the one who started using the "theirs/ours" reference I was just using his words to make a point.

that kind of thing touches nerves Dave

and that kind of thing can never happen as long as we have a Constitution.
This is America, you can't dictate who can make a living a certain way, that is rediculous and every time I hear it brought up I think it is rediculous.

"their fish" come on, the fish belong to all of us , it is a natural resource.

Cowhunter, no need to run away mad, you state your reasoning and others have debated, let's not all get carried away please.

No Offense Numbskull, but I fished the Surf up and down the coast and pulled fish off the Surf in every state from Maine to NJ, I put in way more time then you ever did. You cant learn at your club and books what you can learn from experience. Just a fact.


Are you kidding me? Numbskull's been around so long the key on Ben Franklin's kite was to his apartment....I also heard he still owes Jesus three bucks.

Gotta say I don't agree with this. If a guy is busting his hump and doing it legally then who are we to judge. This issue is not about individuals but about the resources that should be available equally and responsibly to all.

In many walks of life people do things to supplement their income, like many of the fishermen I know who make their own plugs which sometimes turns into a side job as they sell them. If you're good at it then people will want what you do. Nothing wrong with it.

Let's keep this about the resources and not about attacks on individuals

Let's just lay this whole thing out there for everyone.

Cowhunter, Me, Slipknot, JohnR, BackBeach, Jimmy Houston, Fred Arbogast.... and the rest of us began fishing because we love it.

The ins and outs of this argument are just like the ins and outs of arguing about republican vs democrat---which ammounts to F)*^ing impossible.

On the one hand, we have seen commercial fishing cripple or anihilate several species in the past. It's no secret that the professional fishing sect wiped out the codfish south and west of Cape Cod, not too many recs fishing George's Bank.

We have some strange arguments regarding the leagality of commercial fishing for striped bass...

On the one hand Cowhunter wants it and he wants it because he's not doing that much damage (something his avatar might tell otherwise). So in a very strange twist, he's pointing the finger at commericals from down south saying that they are the ones doing a lot of the damage.

This is a fact. But not all of it.

The difference I see is in willingness.

We the recs are willing to whittle our take down, while the comms cry for more. What kind of sense does this make for anyone who started fishing because it was fun.

The next difference is in the kind of damage, many commercials are specialists at taking the largest fish which yield the largest dollar ammouts. They do a huge ammounts of damage to our best breeders, fish in the 25-40 pound class. Why is this so hard to get?

Just as its good to discuss lowering the take by Recreational Fisherman by changing the size and bag limits , Its deffinitely OK to talk about whether there should be increased regulation of Commercial fisherman including possible stiffer requirements to maintain a license or reduced limits , etc.

What is not good message board etiquette is turning it personal on someone who is posting on the topic. The more avid the fisherman , the more these issues are taken to heart but it is never OK to go after an individual instead of the topic being discussed. Its never OK to give out personal information as part of these personal attacks.

This board is absolutely the most open fishing board anywhere. All opinions are welcome , we allow links to sites that members find informative as long as its not overboard spamming. The make up of the board's members cannot be forced to have equal numbers of people posting both sides of a given issue. If it seems the board is biased its because there are more mebers with a certain opinion on something. This mix changes very quickly as the topic changes.


This is a good discussion that has gone on for several pages with lots of opinions expressed. It would be ashame to have to lock the thread.

Treat bass exactly like Florida treats the redfish..

case closed.

Perhaps a better a plan would be to leave the quota the same and open the season up to 365 days a year. But lower the daily catch limit to say 5-8 fish. This way it wouldn't be worth it for the double-dippers to go out every day. Close it to out of staters and all the better. This would give the true commerical fisherman another option to top off his catch from May through November.

I's still rather see it go away :)

I's still rather see it go away :)

Me too, with my new condom line soon to be released I won't miss the $300 fishing income much at all...

:rumble:

This is what happens at these meetings and why I no longer go. Everyone gets insulted and everyone knows more than the next guy. Fishermen, as a group are pretty narrow minded people. They are not the creme dela creme of the academic world and see life thru a rather narrow field of view. You can't talk to most of them. They have their mind made up and they generally adopt a very selfish position.

Bottom line: Comm's think they have a right to sell fish and no own should take that from them ever(regaurdless of the fishery status) They view recs as guys in their way and taking potential $ from their pockets.

Rec's hate to see anyone exploiting the fish but would like to be able to freely fish and take something home now and again. They view comms as greedy fishermen who would take every last fish if they could.

Conserv's don't give a damn about people or the economy, save the planet. Feel they have the high moral ground.

I don't think there is a happy medium. These "groups" will never agree...its like repub's vs dems', Israel and Palestine, its not a happy group. There is a lot of hatred, namecalling, finger pointing and general dislike between them.


IMO just shut it down all together. No sale, no take for the next decade right up the coast. Work on the bait problems without undue fishing pressure from anyone. Make it a C&R fishery. and while they are at it...Draggers must avoid all areas where SB swim...out to 15 miles. No dragging inshore ever.

Fair enough. I don't even know him, I thought that was common knowledge.

Cowhunter -- sorry for going there, that's a sincere apology

Gotta say I don't agree with this. If a guy is busting his hump and doing it legally then who are we to judge. This issue is not about individuals but about the resources that should be available equally and responsibly to all.

In many walks of life people do things to supplement their income, like many of the fishermen I know who make their own plugs which sometimes turns into a side job as they sell them. If you're good at it then people will want what you do. Nothing wrong with it.

Let's keep this about the resources and not about attacks on individuals

Very good point.

My only beef is that I'm not making my plugs out of trees from the last forest on earth.

I will tell you I have learned more from discussing this issue from all different view points than from what I have read and heard. I also have a lot more respect for Cowhunter and other commercial fishermen than I did in the past.

Communication is the key. But only if we all agree that the most important issue is making the resource available to us evenly and fairly. And also keep it around for our kids, grand kids, and generations to come

By the way someone had mentioned making the season open 365 days a year to comm. I do not agree with that. There should be no fish taken that are wintering or pre-spawn. Also, that would require many, many more trips for the comm and gas costs alone would make that a losing proposition. Yes a longer season with lower daily limits is fine but maybe meet somewhere in the middle?

I also believe we need to keep our big breeders so a slot limit would make more sense and no netting for the stripers

We also need to get rid of the netters of the menhaden. Whether it's purse seining or dragging it needs to stop

No Offense Numbskull, but I fished the Surf up and down the coast and pulled fish off the Surf in every state from Maine to NJ, I put in way more time then you ever did. You cant learn at your club and books what you can learn from experience. Just a fact.

Easy Cowboy, nobody is questioning your experience or dedication. But please don't lecture me about learning.

We also need to get rid of the netters of the menhaden. Whether it's purse seining or dragging it needs to stop

I agree with all of that, just playing devil's advocate

Boy I hope there's no menhaden commerical fishermen on here! :devil2:

Numbskull, that was not directed at you... It was for Doublerunner, sorry bud

Cant keep up with names anymore, you know, getting hit from every angle, its a no win waste of time for me.... Ill spend the time with the kids and get my stuff together for VA.
Canalman, I was more so blaming the rec and charter boats down in Va Nc..

Saltheart, really doesnt make a difference to me, you can edit or delete all my posts. I said what I had to say..

Sometimes it's easy to get a little too bold online,

I guess the best news of all is that we are all passionate about fishing, just different aspects.

There needs to be some adjustment across the board, can we all agree on that?

NOW what can fight about? :jump1:

Damn, missed the fun again.

Aside from the intermittent tirades, this was fun. Unfortunately it just goes one more opportunity to show how:



Fishermen can't get on the same page on something
Few are willing to put the fish above allocation while sharing allocation
We will always loose when we can be broken up and divided along usergroup lines
Someone else is always at fault

The worst part - I think Numbskull hit on it earlier in the thread - we might just see a closure of all of this again in our lifetime. Wouldn't that really suck that we fought each other for so long we pi$$ed away another opportunity with these fish?

I know I'm done, (For the 10th time).
Just wanted to post a link for the NJ Bonus tag program. New Jersey allocates its comercial catch to recreational fisherman. Each fish in NJ is sold out for $2.00 a fish, (Used to be a buck or so- I never got one). The COMMERCIAL or as rec guys would like to hear BONUS TAG Program quota is 321,750lbs.... That is twice what RI's commercial quota is and close to a third of mass com quota. Anyone can get one. The State gets all the $$$ and the tag system is abused. Guys rarely fill out the tag unless they see a warden. If heard Rec Guys refer to it as "The Gift that keeps on Giving". Stripersforever dont have a problem with this, are they even aware??

I'm just calling it how it is... How do you Hardcore rec Guys feel about this????

Mark My words, if Mass looses its com quota it WILL Be distributed to other states. Boys down south Cant wait!

NJDEP Division of Fish & Wildlife - Striped Bass Bonus Program (http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/bonusbas.htm)

I know I'm done, (For the 10th time).
Just wanted to post a link for the NJ Bonus tag program. New Jersey allocates its comercial catch to recreational fisherman. Each fish in NJ is sold out for $2.00 a fish, (Used to be a buck or so- I never got one). The COMMERCIAL or as rec guys would like to hear BONUS TAG Program quota is 321,750lbs.... That is twice what RI's commercial quota is and close to a third of mass com quota. Anyone can get one. The State gets all the $$$ and the tag system is abused. Guys rarely fill out the tag unless they see a warden. If heard Rec Guys refer to it as "The Gift that keeps on Giving". Stripersforever dont have a problem with this, are they even aware??

I'm just calling it how it is... How do you Hardcore rec Guys feel about this????

Mark My words, if Mass looses its com quota it WILL Be distributed to other states. Boys down south Cant wait!

I told you earlier how i felt about it and i hope it never happens like that here in Mass.

well put cowhunter
I guess I'll just continue doing my part by releasing all my 40 pounders and hope they survive the gauntlet so I can catch them again when they are 50's

Missed my point Bruce.

I don't really think of the fish as anyone's fish. Cowhunter is the one who started using the "theirs/ours" reference I was just using his words to make a point.

I was referring to your quote here



If all states made it necessary to provide proof that commercial fishing made up more than %50 their income, this debate would be moot.

-Dave


that is a discussion for another thread

It will never happen.

I just got off the phone with Rodney King.
He wants us to just get along.
Said the world is gonna end in 2012 anyway, didn't I get the memo ?
:hidin:

"Comm's think they have a right to sell fish and no one should take that from them ever(regardless of the fishery status) They view recs as guys in their way and taking potential $ from their pockets."
SM...I've seen your posts on this subject before...somehow I don't think YOU are the one to be stating how commercial bass guys think. As someone who has fished bass commercially for about 40 years I resent the characterization as someone whose greed clouds the view of the status of the fishery.

Having worked in local community Planning Dept. for 30+ years I have experienced numerous occasions where I have been called a liar, a developers puppet, on the take, etc. With the exception of telling an occasional "fishermans white lie", I am none of these things; yet these people "know" they're right and have no problem sharing their opinions with anyone who will listen. I find a lot of similiarities in the debate on the validity of fisheries data and impartiality of regulators. Somehow that guy banging nails for a living "knows" he's right and that fisheries biologist with years of education in the field is a bozo and a liar who's willing to throw his job down the shi#&er for someone elses benefit.

Now consider how this legislation is being proposed. A group with an inflexible position contrary to the body of current scientific data has one of their own (a self described "fly fisherman" who caught fish till his arms fell off in the 80's but can't catch one now...his words) introduce legislation to a bunch of pols who know "NOTHING" about the fishery. The fact that "their" bill flies in the face of the position agencies charged with making the "informed" decisions has taken means nothing . He's right...they're bozos...SF told him so! If he's a state rep that really gives a damn and thinks they're cooking the data he should be investigating that...not asking Brad B what he should do next.

Has anyone looked at the online news articles that were published on this? Check out some of the comments....people with virtually NO CLUE on the status of the fishery, the methods of harvest, quotas, etc. all chiming in with their $.02 about the big bad ocean raping commercial fisherman. Now think back a few years to the days of Question#1...you remember..the no trapping, no bear hunting, let's put PETA in charge of the Div. of F&W citizen initiative petition ; or maybe just back a couple of years to the "no greyhound racing" vote. Those have worked out real well haven't they.:wall: Just ask one of those folks down in Raynham how many weeks till their unemployment runs out. The common thread? All these laws were/are being pushed by inflexible groups with no regard for the opinions of others, the welfare of others impacted and no respect for the professionals who make their decisions based on data and professional expertise.

PS Wonder what Stellwagen will look like come July if the commercial bass season is shut down? :devil2:

I know I'm done, (For the 10th time).
Just wanted to post a link for the NJ Bonus tag program. New Jersey allocates its comercial catch to recreational fisherman. Each fish in NJ is sold out for $2.00 a fish, (Used to be a buck or so- I never got one). The COMMERCIAL or as rec guys would like to hear BONUS TAG Program quota is 321,750lbs.... That is twice what RI's commercial quota is and close to a third of mass com quota. Anyone can get one. The State gets all the $$$ and the tag system is abused. Guys rarely fill out the tag unless they see a warden. If heard Rec Guys refer to it as "The Gift that keeps on Giving". Stripersforever dont have a problem with this, are they even aware??

Mark My words, if Mass looses its com quota it WILL Be distributed to other states. Boys down south Cant wait!

So for small money any joe blow can get a mass license and kill far more at less than $2.00 a fish. There are plenty of fish caught under the Mass license process that do not make it into the state quote numbers. This system is abused and the state gets the money. Different process, same results. How about the great results Maryland recently had with their commercial fisherman poaching problems. In that case they were actually real commercial fisherman. In mass the licenses mostly go to greedy recreational fisherman.

I can assure you that Stripers Forever are well aware of how NJ uses their quota. From the ones I've talked to they do not think this is any better then commercial fishing. Lets make demons out of a group that is actually working together to protect a resource. They may be on the extreme side but it is usually these groups that finally get action to occur.

I look at the fishery as something that should be maintained in the best interest of the public. For stripers you have a huge number of people fishing for them, which results in true social benefits. So it is in the best interest of the public to keep this fishery in a very health state. When you reach the point where you need to reduce the catch you should first reduce the catch being taken by the groups being given special benefits, over the general population. That is what the commercial quota is. What makes anyone think that they deserve the right to a public resource for personal finiancial gain over that of the rest of the public.

The Northeast cod fishery could produce at least three times as much fish as it presently does if we would just let it recover. But to prevent short term job loss we continue to waste a valuable resource by are in action.

I am sorry you resent my generalisation about comm fishermen. I think it is fairly accurate. Having gone to many of the various public meetings when options were being discussed as what may happen during the problem days, I heard from many outspoken comm fishermen first hand in the public forums. They wanted to continue fishing commercially inspite of the drastic situation bass were in. They wanted to give up nothing!! And the state was appearing sympathetic. It wasn't until the government literally forced the closure that the DMF had no choice to close comm bass fishing in MA, and they were quick to re-open it to pre-closure levels as soon as they could.
More recently, when they wanted to move the MA comm limit from 50 to something lower like 10 fish/day the outcry was outrageous and it legislated to (only) 30. Where is the science in this? Just because a bunch of guys cry about it the DMF changes its recommendation?? This is a joke. They should not be listening to the fishermen who are soley acting to protect their selfish interest. They should set the proper rules for a healthy fishery and enforce fisherman to comply. Do what is right and the hell with weekend yahoos. If you don't like it , get a land job

This is what makes the DMF so laughable, they pat themselves on their own back for what a great job they did for saving the SB, yet THEY were part of the problem!! If they were actually managing the resources properly we would never have to endure such draconian action like a complete moratorium. Your right, I do critique the DMF and the main reason is because they are in bed with the commercial interest and are trying to squeeze every last drop of a resource of unknown size and health. They are not conservative enough IMO. I would like to err on the side of caution and never have to resort to such harsh and knee jerk regulations.
How come Comm R&R don't complain about the by-catch discard of SB by draggers? I bet if that catch was forced to be sold rather than dumped and come off the commercial quota the R&R bass guys would be screaming bloody murder that "these guys are taking our fish". But instead they get dumped overboard dead, unaccounted for and as long as it doesn't effect this weeks paycheck don't worry about it. Face it, Commercial SB fishermen really don't care about protecting much of anything.

Hey Sandman - As I said...seen your posts before...lots of the same old IMO's here. You know what they say about opinions. Quick question for you...how many more fish does it take to reach the lb. quota @ 50 per day as opposed to 30 per day? I assume your background is in marine fisheries or psychology as you seem to know everything about how fisheries should be managed and how everyone else thinks......or should be thinking. I'm pretty sure you don't have a degree in math.

And..I have a land job already thanks. As a matter of fact I have 2 jobs in the summer....you know "greedy recreational fisherman " as Mike T. calls us. Funny thing is I never would have got job #1 (land job) if I hadn't paid for school with job #2 (GRF)...wait... does that mean job #2 really is job #1?? Maybe I am a REAL COMMERCIAL FISHERMAN after all! Thank goodness...for a while there I thought I might be entering the wrong occupational code on my 1040 Sched. C when I'm paying my taxes on my GRF business income!

PS You know guys..I really tried to change. I had a PT job as a nail banger but someone started bitching about me taking food out of the mouth of the pro nail banger down the street.

This thread reminds me of a good barroom brawl and after 25 years in the business I've seen more than one New Bedford squaredance break out...:smokin:

Now that the combatants have pretty much finished beating the Jehovah out of each other after Mike stepped in as bouncer, there are some obvious conclusions

To a man, there seems to be little disagreement that the inshore striped bass fishery is in trouble and I hear that opinion from a pretty broad range of veteran surfmen that I respect. These are men with 30, 40 and in some cases more than 50 years in the fishery, both recreationally and commercially, and there are few, if any, substitutes for that kind of historical perspective.

Ultimately, whether you like it or not, striped bass are a shared resource and Stripers Forever is attempting an exclusive resource grab for the recreational sector. Period.

If - and this is really the fly in the ointment - if the data gathered from recreational licensing goes as expected, I think the recreational side - of which I am a member - is going to be in denial for some time to come over the facts

No one is blameless. The regulations have to be tightened and both sides have to take a hit and take the pain - the alternative is going to be a moritorium which will serve no one user group's best interests

And since I don't have a dog in the fight financially on either side, I don't have to "be careful" - I don't run a charter operation, don't manufacture or sell striped bass plugs, tackle, waders, bags, titanium pliers, books, flip-flops or any of the other accoutrements that mark your standing as a seasoned and knowledgeable sharpie

Nor do I have a commercial license, although I have many friends who do and that is their right regarding a shared resource

Money, as we all know, is at the root of all evil - although at this point in my life I've come to realize that ego and a deep-seated need for external validation is a pretty frigging close second

I just received my commercial license renewal in the mail yesterday. Given there's 3700 or so licenses issued at $ 65 each it amounts to roughly 240K in revenue for the state. I don't see them stopping commercial sale of bass for 2010 at this point given the impending winfall.I think if the gamefish bill gets passed it wouldn't be implemented until 2011 at least.

Just a thought from one of the 3600 or so "recrimercial" fisherman in Mass.

Mine is $470.00... Moving to Mass when I retire!

Mine is $470.00... Moving to Mass when I retire!

Why so much? I thought the out of state was like $150?

Out of State Boat, Charter, Striped bass, Seabass, Scup endorsements.... Mass Raises more than people think on license fees...

Mass Raises more than people think on license fees...

In keeping with the context of this thread its probably 240K or so just for striped bass endorsements. Licensing revenue overall would obviously have to be substantially higher.

Yes it is true, but some people only get a license for the striped bass endorsement ONLY, fees being much higher for boat...

What I think would help is to make it mandatory to show your sales slip from the year before in order to get a license again the next year. I bet a big percent of the licenses in MA go to people who just pay the fee so they can skirt the bag limits. They take all the fish a com license allows but sell zero. This is just paying a fee to get around the bag limit laws. People do it for taug and fluke as well as stripers. It should be a regulation something like if you had a license last year , you cannot get a renewal ubnless you can prove you sold more than x amount of fish the year before.

There are two issues here. One , they get to skirt the bag limits for a price. Two , the fish they take are not counted in the quota because nobody knows they are taking them.

I think fixing that problem and forcing bicatch to be sold and counted would really go a long way to reducing the take pumping health into the fishery.

A quick search of mass.
2008 numbers
3599 permits sold
1207 reported landing even one fish
102 reported landing at least 3000 pounds

Trapperpierre, You are correct Charter / Guide / Headboats do not have their catch reported .

Sorry, that is B.S. every charter boat that holds federal licenses has to report every trip on a Vessel trip report form no matter where they have been fishing and no matter what species they have been fishing for. I'd wager that somewhere around 99% of all charter/party boats hold federal licenses, so the vast majority of the striped bass catch by charter/party boats is being reported.

Makomike, sorry bud but you are wrong... Not all states require guides / charter boats need to report. Not a single captain I know reports in nj and I have an endorsement in mass that does not require a striped bass catch report. New York for instance does...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Although I don't doubt that "some" will get the permit just to take more fish, I question why someone would do that (other than having a whole flock of mouths to feed). If you're just fishing to fill the freezer, you're limiting your catch to 34"+ fish....keep one under 34" and you're now fishing as a rec. I think the more likely thing is that many of the "0" reports come from people who have a licence because they fish in someone elses boat who does not have a boat permit. No permit...no ride.

I think the more likely thing is that many of the "0" reports come from people who have a licence because they fish in someone elses boat who does not have a boat permit. No permit...no ride.

Not sure it still works that way. I think you get a vessel permit now and it covers everyone on board and limits the catch to 30 per boat.
In previous years you needed everyone on the vessel to have a license, but I believe each license holder could take a full limit of fish.

Lots of zeros come from guys like me who get the license "just in case" or keep renewing the license so as to not have it permanently revoked. I've heard the argument that folks get the license just to be able to keep more fish to eat, but this has to be very minimal.

Makomike, sorry bud but you are wrong... Not all states require guides / charter boats need to report. Not a single captain I know reports in nj and I have an endorsement in mass that does not require a striped bass catch report. New York for instance does...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The new Mass commercial regs for 2010 indicate all vessels will need to submit trip level reporting either by mail or electronically. Not sure about other states or charter ops though.
This may help alleviate some of the over runs in the quota as there will be a "real time" tally going versus waiting for the fish houses to submit thier data weekly or longer.

A quick search of mass.
2008 numbers
3599 permits sold
1207 reported landing even one fish
102 reported landing at least 3000 pounds

Those are interesting numbers.

Those are interesting numbers.

Those statistics helped spawn the "Recrimercial" moniker, I'm sure.

BB - You may be right on the individual permit; I know there were some changes a couple of yrs. back. In the past my dad, bro and I had to get 3 permits to fish the same boat but the limit was not x3. $130 for my boat permit and endorsements.

I think the new trip level reporting is a very positive change for both the fishermen and the number crunchers. Sure will make the "paperwork" a lot easier and provide more realistic data on the "sub-legal" released category; which in my case is usually an estimate once I run out fingers & toes to count with. ;-) Hey Sandman..you didn't answer my "math" question...just to be fair I guess you're allowed to use your fingers and toes too.

A quick search of mass.
2008 numbers
3599 permits sold
1207 reported landing even one fish
102 reported landing at least 3000 pounds


That is just about in agreement with the people I know who have commercial licenses. I would say it 2 to 1 the people who just keep everything vs the people who actually sell fish with their license. From what I hear its the Taug and Fluke that make it worth while but they do the same with stripers if the occasion rises.

Those statistics helped spawn the "Recrimercial" moniker, I'm sure.

First time I saw it.
T. W is interesting, thanks.

Kind of sad that we are more or less in the same argument and the same fisheries mess we were in ten years ago.

Hmmm, progress :scratch:

"I would say it 2 to 1 the people who just keep everything vs the people who actually sell fish with their license"

I for one would have no problem with those who check "DNF" on their catch reports for over 1 year being required to explain the circumstances prior to renewal.

Just curious guys...what would you say is the ratio or C&R bass fishermen to fisherman who put their 2 in the box whenever they can?

"I would say it 2 to 1 the people who just keep everything vs the people who actually sell fish with their license"

I for one would have no problem with those who check "DNF" on their catch reports for over 1 year being required to explain the circumstances prior to renewal.

Just curious guys...what would you say is the ratio or C&R bass fishermen to fisherman who put their 2 in the box whenever they can?

In my group of twenty or so people I fish with only one always keeps a deuce.
95% of everything legal from the rest of us goes back.

Almost nobody I fish with keeps 2 on any given day. I would say 20% keep 1 every few weeks.These guys usually have 5 or 6 mouths to feed and do it to save money on food. 20% keep 1 maybe 2 or 3 times a season. These guys like to have it now and then but do not freeze it and only want it about 2 or 3 times a season.60% put everything back unless they have a very rare request from someone who wants to try striper.
95% of my own caught fish go back in to be caught another day.

"I would say it 2 to 1 the people who just keep everything vs the people who actually sell fish with their license"

I for one would have no problem with those who check "DNF" on their catch reports for over 1 year being required to explain the circumstances prior to renewal.

Just curious guys...what would you say is the ratio or C&R bass fishermen to fisherman who put their 2 in the box whenever they can?

I will sell everything I catch if a legal market is open for them. As far as recreationally, I will keep maybe 1 a week, or a bleeder.
In the number of marinas I've been in, during the last 7 years, I've talked with a lot of fishermen. A large majority of which would consider a 30 # fish as a monster and 5 fish in a day as a awesome day. Good for them. These people always return to the docks with whatever stripers they catch. These are the anglers i would say make up the vast majority of the fishing community.
The guys and gals who participate on this site are not these anglers. I do not think what "we" do with fish is the norm.
If you have not read Amendment 6, asmfc, do so. You can find quite a bit of info at the asmfc site.

The state has this wrong. What they need is a $4 tax on each bunker and eel sold..........then the bass would be fine. ;)

Saltheart, Im on the other end, most everybody I know keeps their fish.... Question for you, How many Rec Guys up and down the coast keep their catch and sell fish black market to cover expenses and so on???
Some on this board put Charter Captains in the same boat as Commercial Fisherman.... I strongly disagree with this. Are charter captains in Mass "Contributing" to the 1.1 million Pounds of commercial Allocation? Absolutely not. They do not in any State. As a charter captain I can do 1, 2 or 3 trips a day if I can book em. 7 days a week if I can. I can take the boat limit over and over and despite what MakoMike says you dont have to report your catch in MOST states, (There are other areas besides the SW corner of Block where Stripers Live)....MakoMike might not like this but as a charter captain, Im saying I kill way to many fish and I feel strongly that MANY Other do to. It is what the law allows though...They dont shut down the charter captains, or rec guys when Their quota is filled, (Cause there really isnt one). What if Charter Captains had a quoat? What if Rec Guys have a quota? Shut them down like they do commercials when its hit? Even on the reporting system that exists in most states, you wont get "rewarded" if you send a catch report in so its easy to get lazy and fudge inacurrate numbers. Commercials get paid for every pound they bring in and so it is tallied and despite what is said by stripersforever it is reported. You dont have rec guys bringing their catch in to tackleshops or anywhere else to get wieghed and accounted for. In NJ you have to pay for a bonus tag, you dont get "Rewarde" or anything when you send the tag in, so in return guys will use one tag to catch an extra 5, 10, 20 fish, (Some More). I wonder what the 321K quota really is. Stripersforever should be putting thier energy to putting together a more accurate reporting system on fish killed. Not worry about catching 80 fish or so until your arm are tired. does this make Sense to ANYONE???? I feel like nobody else sees any of this but me??? Despite what SANDMAN may think I really want whats best for the fishery as a whole, (I Even want sandman to make more money on his Tide logs!). I would have no problem with one fish at 36" from state to state as a Charter Captain. My business would not suffer one bit. Now if it was a gamefish only It would suffer, so would alot of the businesses up and down the coast. Alot of people do fish for Meat, and a large Majority do not understand catch and release and never will...I find no better example than the Chesapeake bay, when they shut it down, its a ghost town...

Ill go back to the NJ Bonus Tag... The State doesnt care about anything except collecting the $2 bucks a fish. They rely on anglers sending in the tags and buying another one for every single fish they catch. As I said it is a joke, (The gift that keeps on giving). I really truly believe that the number of fish killed would way exceed the NJ Commercial quota, (It is what it is - Commercial quota). I think it would be a staggering number, more than 2, 3 times the quota.... But agian thats myopinion and it dont mean %$%$%$%$ because I dont have any scientific data to back it, (Niether does the State)....

Stripersforever does have NJ as a little green state on their website where no commercial quota exists...

Saltheart, Im on the other end, most everybody I know keeps their fish.... Question for you, How many Rec Guys up and down the coast keep their catch and sell fish black market to cover expenses and so on???
Some on this board put Charter Captains in the same boat as Commercial Fisherman.... I strongly disagree with this. Are charter captains in Mass "Contributing" to the 1.1 million Pounds of commercial Allocation? Absolutely not. They do not in any State. As a charter captain I can do 1, 2 or 3 trips a day if I can book em. 7 days a week if I can. I can take the boat limit over and over and despite what MakoMike says you dont have to report your catch in MOST states, (There are other areas besides the SW corner of Block where Stripers Live)....MakoMike might not like this but as a charter captain, Im saying I kill way to many fish and I feel strongly that MANY Other do to. It is what the law allows though...They dont shut down the charter captains, or rec guys when Their quota is filled, (Cause there really isnt one). What if Charter Captains had a quoat? What if Rec Guys have a quota? Shut them down like they do commercials when its hit? Even on the reporting system that exists in most states, you wont get "rewarded" if you send a catch report in so its easy to get lazy and fudge inacurrate numbers. Commercials get paid for every pound they bring in and so it is tallied and despite what is said by stripersforever it is reported. You dont have rec guys bringing their catch in to tackleshops or anywhere else to get wieghed and accounted for. In NJ you have to pay for a bonus tag, you dont get "Rewarde" or anything when you send the tag in, so in return guys will use one tag to catch an extra 5, 10, 20 fish, (Some More). I wonder what the 321K quota really is. Stripersforever should be putting thier energy to putting together a more accurate reporting system on fish killed. Not worry about catching 80 fish or so until your arm are tired. does this make Sense to ANYONE???? I feel like nobody else sees any of this but me??? Despite what SANDMAN may think I really want whats best for the fishery as a whole, (I Even want sandman to make more money on his Tide logs!). I would have no problem with one fish at 36" from state to state as a Charter Captain. My business would not suffer one bit. Now if it was a gamefish only It would suffer, so would alot of the businesses up and down the coast. Alot of people do fish for Meat, and a large Majority do not understand catch and release and never will...I find no better example than the Chesapeake bay, when they shut it down, its a ghost town...


These are good and fair points.

Hey Cowhunter...welcome back...again. :) Been trying to watch your back...with limited success. :smash::wall:

Before and after the commercial season I rarely keep a fish unless it's a bleeder...and I have to argue with my 87 yr. old father over every throwback (old school...he still thinks 16" and it goes in the box...or to the pretty neighbor!) but the vast majority of the casual rec's I know are dying to catch that keeper and fillet away. I admit that's not many because virtually all my fishing friends fish commercially...I guess for all of us it's a "birds of a feather" thing!

"But again thats my opinion and it dont mean %$%$%$%$ because I dont have any scientific data to back it,"

I wish everyone would be this honest and would rely on those "with the data"

Speaking of "Data"
I have been all over the web looking at "scientific "research findings on the state of the atlantic striped bass population. The cumulative data from many various sources is so convoluted, how the hell does anyone really know what the real truth is. Use whatever suits your needs I guess.
I believe the true fate of bass lies in the ignorance of the failing nursery ecosystems.( Bob Pond use to harp on this years ago ) Got to replace what we keep somehow or all this trash talking is a mute point.
We'll all be plugging for sculpins.

No one wants to be told you may have to take a hit in your income. I wish I had a forum like this to voice my frustrations to the fact that for the last 2 years we have had to drop our prices almost 20% just to stay in business. It sucks, would have been therapeutic.

[QUOTE=CowHunter;729676]Saltheart, Im on the other end, most everybody I know keeps their fish.... Question for you, How many Rec Guys up and down the coast keep their catch and sell fish black market to cover expenses and so on???


I have no idea how many.

I know people do it.

I know nobody I fish with does this. I know that if I found out someone I fished with does this , they wouldn't fish with me anymore.

I'm all for the guy who does whatever he does within the rules and regulations. If a guy keeps 30 fish on a Com license because that's what the law says . I have no issue with him. I do have an issue with the law and those who make these laws allowing such a high limit but I have no issue at all with the guy who keeps and sells the legal limit.

The new Mass commercial regs for 2010 indicate all vessels will need to submit trip level reporting either by mail or electronically. Not sure about other states or charter ops though.
This may help alleviate some of the over runs in the quota as there will be a "real time" tally going versus waiting for the fish houses to submit thier data weekly or longer.

In RI, We are required to have a trip log on board, that must be filled every day; (Bass, Fluke, Scup, etc), where we sell, where we fish, etc. Those log book entries must be sent to RIDEM every quarter.

I believe next year in MA, catch reports must be submitted monthly.

Cowhunter, like you, I have a MA boat permit, bass endorsement, no charter endorsement(my fee is $380); my RI license is $275 with all the endorsements......

Those that attend the actual ASMFC S-B management board meetings know that there are some valid concerns coming from the scientists and that these concerns will most likely trigger a motality reduction in 2010/2011. Most with some knowledge are predicting a return to the 1 fish at 28" standard for the coastal migrating stock.

For those that like to state how such and such a state can take smaller fish please read up on the term conservation equivalency and get an understanding of how the Striped Bass Management Plan works with regard to mortality numbers. Also please note the scientific differences between the coastal migrating stock and the small local resident populations.

For those throwing slot limit and minimum size numbers around please quote the mortality reduction numbers that are related to your position and from what source you got them. If mortality reduction is the goal we should at least hear what gain you are claiming your numbers will produce.

The real issue the SF moles have this thread all convaluted and confused is to avoid the debate on should the state of MA get into setting fisheries regulations. Anyone that cares about fish from any perspective must answer this questions with a loud HELL NO!

These guys have you all argueing comm vs rec while they lobby hard for a bill that will devastate all fisheries once the lobby for the big business fleet gets their legislative machine working fisheries legislation. Anyone want to argue that big buisness does not beat all in the MA State House.

Does anyone think it is ironic that the largest boats in the state control most of the state funded piers in both Gloucester and New Bedford. Does anyone think the SF folks and their little movement are going to be here when the Midwater Trawl fleet lobbyist wants to target and sell everything they can catch in the name of conservation. These 20 boats and their Alaskan and Irish uber corporations will shut down every small commercial operation in every town on the coast. They will still dump mixed catch as being to dirty to sort for value and devastate the ocean but now they will do it with legislative approval.

Sorry SF, you guys like to blame your lack of fish in Maine o MA while omitting the fact that the combination of purse seiners and other fleets that are dead set on making sure there is more lobster bait for your unregulated trap numbers than is even possible to use have devastated your inshore bait supply to the point that the Striped Bass have left your shores.

If you want a comparison to your brilliant idea, please see the State of Virginia where all regulations must pass the legislature. Anyone want to know what state has the absolute worst fisheries conservation record on the whole coast. Could it be the home of Omega Protein. Bingo. Good job SF...way to make things better, copy the sucessful conservation system of Virginia.

I challenge SF to show up at ASMFC and lobby for regulation change like the rest of us do. Particpate in the system that brought back Striped Bass and continues to manage a fishery that is getting harder to manage by the day. Despite our imperfections, the democratic system of fisheries management continues to work, and will as long as fishermen show up.

The real problem is that this thread will generate more written input than testimony will be spoken at the next ASMFC S-B meeting.

If people only cared enough to show up at one meeting per year we would run management of all fisheries. If all this yap on the net was backed up by one paid membership to one rec advocacy group per person we would run management.

Come on guys...the SF bunch has you all missing the big picture. Don't be fooled.

These are very good and valid points, Patrick, and clarify your reasoned objection to this bill.

It does raise some questions, however. If the recreational sector's quota is (appropriately for sure) reduced to 1 fish, is the commercial quota also likely to be adjusted (fairly or not) downward as well? How much? What consequences do you foresee if not?

As for stock mortality based on fish size, any proposal would have to reduce mortality to meet required targets, and any proposal could be made to work.......but would require the implementation of a season as is seen in other fisheries (not something most people seem anxious to happen).

I'm also having difficulty understanding how this bill will open all fishing to legislative regulation. Isn't it limited to Striped Bass alone? Isn't it already much easier and cheaper for the industrial fishing interests to influence regulations through political appointments to the ASMFC board? Isn't that what has been going on for years and led us to this point?

Undoubtedly your ideal of increased recreational representation in our fishery management is the best option, but to date it has not worked. The industrial interests know and exploit that. What do you see that is now different and gives you confidence things will change in the future?

To continue a system that has failed and hope it will change may be noble, may feel right, but may also be wrong. To tear down a system that could work and replace it with one that may do worse is not necessarily better either. It comes down to opinion. That it has gotten this far is a sign of the trouble we face. I don't pretend to know an answer, just thinking out loud.

Hopefully the next asmfc meeting will not be in the middle of the day on a weekday.

I take offense to your post. I bust my hump every day of my life. I own my own business and go in day after day after day even when I don't feel well. And I do not sit behind a desk and I have no inheritance. And I have not paid any one to put me on to fish. I surf fish at times when most are sleeping. I put in my time and don't expect any one to hand anything to me. And by the way my chevy pick up has 190,000 miles on it and is my only vehicle

Your argument basically states that since other states can still have commercial fishing and that other comm's break the law then it's okay for everyone to do that. Come on man, at least be responsible.

Rec's may catch more fish but they kill far fewer. I dare say that 100% of the fish caught commercially are killed. Recreational fishermen kill very few of their catch....maybe 10% nationwide. For me it's 0% as I release them all....but that's just me. Plus rec's provide much more $$ for the economy than do comm's.

Personally I don't want to see any one's livelihood taken away but I feel saving the stock is more important than a few dollars. And don't call me a treehugger 'cause I am not. But without steps being taken to save the species it will be lost and then nothing will be left for anybody and the comm's will just move on to another species for their clients.

And again, I re-iterate that this is just one step in the right direction. The other is to stop the dragging for menhaden

double runner

just because u release all your fish doesn't mean they all live. the mortality rate is about 8-10% for released fish.

also

if u add up all the lbs of fish caught and killed on the million plus trips recs make in mass each year + the 8 - 10 % mortality on released fish u'd come up with a far more dead lbs of fish than the 1 million lbs the comms take.

so

if u really wanted to protect the most fish u'd ban the recs and catch and release and just let the comm's fish. think of all the carbon savings too!

Don't attack me guys I'm just curious, and haven't read the other 240 something posts in this thread. Without protection could our bass population end up like our cod population has? Although cod have made a tiny comeback, and warming water temps have an effect on them moving further north or offshore, they were seriously over fished. It was only 20 or 30 years ago that they could be caught in the canal, from Hull Gut, and other shore places. Global warming, maybe, over fishing def.

I really have no facts though. As a kid growing up we would take the boat out, inside Boston Light and catch all the cod we could want, now, not so much. Just what I think. Don't want to take this thread off topic, just curious if that would ever happen. I wasn't alive for the moratorium, and I don't want to be alive for any moratorium.

These are very good and valid points, Patrick, and clarify your reasoned objection to this bill.

It does raise some questions, however. If the recreational sector's quota is (appropriately for sure) reduced to 1 fish, is the commercial quota also likely to be adjusted (fairly or not) downward as well? How much? What consequences do you foresee if not?

If my guesss that there will be a need for a mortality reduction managment action to respond to scientific concerns that come out of the pending stock asessment update, then the norm is for an across the board reduction of fishing mortality...including the commercial quota will be reduced...unless I am missing an angle but I do not think so

As for stock mortality based on fish size, any proposal would have to reduce mortality to meet required targets, and any proposal could be made to work.......but would require the implementation of a season as is seen in other fisheries (not something most people seem anxious to happen).

There is no question seasons for many marine fish are coming to a management plan near all of us in the near future. For S-B I think we are a couple of management steps away from a season but eventualy that will be on the table as the next best management option.

I'm also having difficulty understanding how this bill will open all fishing to legislative regulation. Isn't it limited to Striped Bass alone? Isn't it already much easier and cheaper for the industrial fishing interests to influence regulations through political appointments to the ASMFC board? Isn't that what has been going on for years and led us to this point?

I'm going to try and answer this with a simple version of a very complex question. Reason one is that the legislation will set legal prescedent. Reason two is that once the legislature is involved in something it tends to clamin that turf for itself. Reason three is that once the lobbyists see that the legislature is willing to pass a fisheries regulatory action they will naturally see that as a new option to make advancement for their agenda and the flood gates of legislation, ammendments and the lot will be opened. WE do not need to be reminded that big buisness clearly can outspend all others on Beacon Hill and next in line will be the extreme greens wiht the rec and conservation minded amongst us being wayyyyyyyyy in the back of the line .

I would suggest that there is different track record with influencing political appointments as opposed vs passing legislation. We have passed very few pieces of legislation as opposed to influencing many political appointments.

Take the MA delegation to the ASMFC. We have three Comissioners. One is a legislator, one is a Governor appointee and MA DMF is the third. Last year we had a major gain (my opinion) from the rec/conservation angle. The Governor's appointee remains Bill Adler from MA Lobsterman's Assn, DMF is DMF, and until he lost his seat the legislative appointee had been Tony Verga from Gloucester who gave proxy to Vito Calamo who has always been a kill it all and sell it all commercial rep of the worst kind. When Tony Verga lost his seat a major effort at the state house between enviros and rec leaders got Rep. Sarah Peake from P-Town as our new ASMFC legislator. FYI...Rep Peake has regulary participated in her county league of sportsmans clubs for the past ten years and after two lunches with her I am can not tell you how important the gain we just made is for us.

My point is that at the ASMFC the rec commnity has a say and a shot at success. We have a decent (not great) track record at ASMFC but moving actions to the state house will clearly be a HUGE step backward.[/B]

Undoubtedly your ideal of increased recreational representation in our fishery management is the best option, but to date it has not worked. The industrial interests know and exploit that. What do you see that is now different and gives you confidence things will change in the future?

I do not see increased interest and that is why our best option is the current rulemaking process as oposed to the legislative process for fisheries management.

To continue a system that has failed and hope it will change may be noble, may feel right, but may also be wrong. To tear down a system that could work and replace it with one that may do worse is not necessarily better either. It comes down to opinion. That it has gotten this far is a sign of the trouble we face. I don't pretend to know an answer, just thinking out loud.

I agree we need serious improvements to fisheries managmeent but I also am absoutely certain involving the legislature is the completely wrong direction.