I heard on the radio that a church in Florida will be burning the Koran this weekend. Remember when someone died over drawing a picture of Muhammad? I wonder what the reaction will be to this? Gen. Petraeus said it will put troops in harms way. Freedom of speech is very important but this might not be a good idea.

with an eye for an eye, the whole world goes blind

The dude who runs the church is a pedophile.

It's an interesting story all around.

Burning the Koran on 9/11 is just idiotic (unless you're crazy), and for P-Daddy to make a public comment warning of it's consequences is quite interesting, but hey, he is a bit of a politician.

I do agree this action will be used to incite people to violence against the West.

As ugly as the event is I do support their right to do it, but it doesn't pass the stupid test. Hell, they're even "praying" what their doing is the right thing.

There is an element of "shouting fire in a movie theater" that shouldn't be ignored.

Many (most) states also don't allow people to ride motorcycles without a helmet.

If it does happen and it's a big story, it wouldn't surprise me if Obama publicly condemns the event. While this may seem odd it's probably the right thing to do.

-spence

Burn it! :jump1: Burn it! :jump1: Burn it! :jump1:

We just lost two soldiers today without burning the f@#$@!#$^% thing. And we are going to lose more if we do not burn it anyway. Do you think they are going to stop killing our soldiers if it does not get burnt? Those of you that think that, are simple minded people.

The citizenry of this country had better stand up to the cowards of Islam. Are you going to be like the jews of world war 2? They walked into the showers to be gased and into the ovens without a fight. Are Americans going to let them slimmy BAS@#$%$ slit you from ear to ear?

Semper Fi :)

Burn it! :jump1: Burn it! :jump1: Burn it! :jump1:

More proof that this country is screwed.

More proof that this country is screwed.

And I'm sure you agree that it is okay for them to burn our flag.

Burn the Koran! :uhuh: Burn it! :uhuh: Burn it! :uhuh:

More proof that this country is screwed.
I already filed this under "idiotic".

-spence

And I'm sure you agree that it is okay for them to burn our flag.

Burn the Koran! :uhuh: Burn it! :uhuh: Burn it! :uhuh:

I feel sorry for people like you
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Burn everything

lets start with nebe's reefer stash

:hee:













nebe doesn't smoke

burnin it W&B

It's an interesting story all around.

Burning the Koran on 9/11 is just idiotic (unless you're crazy), and for P-Daddy to make a public comment warning of it's consequences is quite interesting, but hey, he is a bit of a politician.

I do agree this action will be used to incite people to violence against the West.

As ugly as the event is I do support their right to do it, but it doesn't pass the stupid test. Hell, they're even "praying" what their doing is the right thing.

There is an element of "shouting fire in a movie theater" that shouldn't be ignored.

Many (most) states also don't allow people to ride motorcycles without a helmet.

If it does happen and it's a big story, it wouldn't surprise me if Obama publicly condemns the event. While this may seem odd it's probably the right thing to do.

-spence

I agree with what you are saying Spence. Same could be said for a mosque 2 blocks from ground zero.

This "church" and it's pastor are not Christians by any definition.

If it does happen and it's a big story, it wouldn't surprise me if Obama publicly condemns the event. While this may seem odd it's probably the right thing to do.

-spence

If Obama publicly condemn it, isnt he
- violating the separation of church and state? its not of his business what goes on in a church unless its a federal crime.
- failing to uphold the constitution? Isnt it the constiutional right for this church to burn the koran? there are no laws against it.

This is interesting and as usual I view this differently than most. I'll use the same argument I used for the Muhammed cartoon. I watch South Park all the time. They routinely have Jesus on their and make fun of various religions. yet, you have no death threats, not massive boycotts, no public outrage. yet you have that when a newspaper has a cartoon pic of Muhammed. from who? Muslims.
If we are about treating people equally and their rights, why should/do we treat muslims differently? If this guys burns the korans he shows the world he has no respect for other religions and cultures. If Muslims react, they show the world they dont believe in others freedoms of expression and if they react violently, that they are barbaric people. Unfortunately this will only reinforce what western culture already thinks of them. As Spence said, interesting
Its our country, our laws, our freedom , we should do as we see fit.
Muslims may not like him burning it, but he has the right. NYC residents may not like a mosque near ground zero, but they have a right to build it. No one said this is easy.

Funny, the pilgrims settled in Boston to escape religious persecution, when the Quakers came in, they hanged some and drove others out for not practicing the same religion as them. Aint religion great?

with an eye for an eye, the whole world goes blind

Wouldn't they only be blind in one eye? Unless of course they only had one eye to begin with. Not like a cyclops, but more like a pirate with an eyepatch.

Aint religion great?
I'm all for "burning" it...and all the other "books" and the tax breaks that go with em.
And Nebe's stash too...I'll even help with that!

they burned Beatle records and memorabilia after Lennon proclaimed they were more popular than Jesus.

maybe Islam thinks it more popular than Jesus too!

If Obama publicly condemn it, isnt he
- violating the separation of church and state? its not of his business what goes on in a church unless its a federal crime.
- failing to uphold the constitution? Isnt it the constiutional right for this church to burn the koran? there are no laws against it.

This is interesting and as usual I view this differently than most.

No you don't....that's pretty much how I see it.....

maybe Islam thinks it more popular than Jesus too!

Actually....it is. I'm pretty sure there are more Muslims than Christians in the world

Smart to do? NOT!!


We allow the burning of the flag, what could possibly be more offensive than that?

If we ban the Koran burning we set a precedent to ban any and all freedoms of speech.

It's just plain wrong.

We want our feelings respected on the building of the Mosque
near the 16 acres of the hallowed 9/11 ground and need to
respect their Koran.

Again a very small radical group gives a bad name to the larger.

No you don't....that's pretty much how I see it.....

me too...

However I have no problem with Petrus et al stating the obvious, either.

The church reminds me of the bible literalists in WV/KY area. scary group that doesn't represent all Christians...

Same could be said for a mosque 2 blocks from ground zero.
No, not really. Well, I'm sure the Pastor would violently agree with you. At least you both have that in common.

-spence

If Obama publicly condemn it, isnt he
- violating the separation of church and state? its not of his business what goes on in a church unless its a federal crime.
- failing to uphold the constitution? Isnt it the constiutional right for this church to burn the koran? there are no laws against it.
I don't think there's any law prohibiting from the President from speaking his mind.

Interesting comment I read yesterday, they said that many people some countries simply can't grasp our First Amendment rights or why Obama can't just stop the burning with a simple order.

-spence

No, not really. Well, I'm sure the Pastor would violently agree with you. At least you both have that in common.

-spence

I violently disagree:smash:

The Muslims will handle this in their own way..... behead the Pastor.

"The Muslims" will handle this in their own way..... behead the Pastor.

Quotes added for emphasis. Another thing on which you and the Pastor would probably agree.

What some don't seem to get is that this whole thing is like a (really complicated) Chinese Finger Trap, and people like you and Fly are just pulling as hard as they can.

-spence

I don't see what the big deal is. The church has a Constitutionally protected right to freedom of expression and Islam is a peaceful religion -at least that's what they try to tell us.

I don't remember the South being blown up by Christians when the KKK burned crosses on the lawns of Black people.

Actually....it is. I'm pretty sure there are more Muslims than Christians in the world
It's close but I believe it's something like, about a quarter of the world is Muslim, while a third is some form of Christian.

It's close but I believe it's something like, about a quarter of the world is Muslim, while a third is some form of Christian.

http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif

All stupid people with stupid books that they faun over.
Maybe they'll set each other on fire instead.

Quotes added for emphasis. Another thing on which you and the Pastor would probably agree.

What some don't seem to get is that this whole thing is like a (really complicated) Chinese Finger Trap, and people like you and Fly are just pulling as hard as they can.

-spence

And if we release the pressure everything will be beautiful in the world???

http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif

All stupid people with stupid books that they faun over.
Maybe they'll set each other on fire instead.

Jews are "other"??? Who did this chart?

Jews are "other"??? Who did this chart?

Put on your glasses.
Its the group smaller than "other".

f this dude.

Yeh, within the letter of the law he might be legal, hence the current predicament. Funny (not really) how the Taliban can murder young girls going to school and state religous views support such unconscionable acts yet burn a book ??

Religion of peace my arse. I would like to see / hear / read more serious denunciation of the acts of Al Quaeda by prominent Islamic leaders but we don't really get that now do we.

Still, the stupidity of this burning is enormous. And it will cost lives. And it is wholly unnecessary and stupid.

I do, however, reserve the right to draw Mohammed.














:raiders:

Put on your glasses.
Its the group smaller than "other".

Damn, such a fuss over such a small piece of the pie.:)

the saddest part of all of this to me is that the "main" reason most feel its a bad idea is because we "fear" that muslims will retaliate and somehow hurt innocent people or our troops. That stands against everything I believe. You may think this pastor is a wacko - but the REAL reason Americans have fought and died is for freedom and our constitutional rights. Americans should not fear retaliation for individual actions they perform under the law. IMHO - fear is all the terrorists have, and if we give into it, they win.
They won with the Dutch newspaper, they won in Spain (train bombing/Iraq pullout).

Ask yourself, do you truly beleive in this - ""I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,"

Isnt that what makes our country great?

oh boy - just read CNN and looks like once again the Big O let me down.

I love this -
Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari said anyone who thought of such a despicable act must be suffering from a diseased mind and a sickly soul, said spokesman Farhatullah Babar.

Zardari said it will inflame sentiments among Muslims throughout the world and cause irreparable damage to interfaith harmony and world peace.

All because someone burned a book? So spence - tell me how I dont understand muslims? Based on the above, they are superstitious, uncivilized religious wackos. Sorry, they only lose respect from me the more I learn. Im going to have a cheesburger at lunch, I really hope it doesnt disturb world peace when I insult the hindus!

Hell even South Park caved in like pussies.

All because someone burned a book? So spence - tell me how I dont understand muslims? Based on the above, they are superstitious, uncivilized religious wackos. Sorry, they only lose respect from me the more I learn. Im going to have a cheesburger at lunch, I really hope it doesnt disturb world peace when I insult the hindus!
I thinking you're making a gross generalization.

There are a lot of Muslims in the US and other parts of the World that while disgusted aren't going to pick up arms over this.

The issue is, and has always been, the areas where mainstream meets the fringe that feed extremism. Often this is in poor areas, although that doesn't mean the interests of the impoverished are limited just to the poor. There's certainly is a lot of mistrust of the West in many Islamic nations, which from a certain perspective on many issues is understandable.

Actions that reinforce this mistrust will almost certainly be used to stoke the flames by the fringe to embolden their position. Even many moderates will be let down by the perceived affront. Hence my comment earlier about the Chinese Finger Trap.

Does this mean we should be held captive by political correctness?

Absolutely not, but it also means we shouldn't loose sight of common sense either. A "stunt" such as this has no real value but has the potential to cause real harm. It's a shame that the story was ever covered in the first place. Let the bigots bask in their hate and it would have all passed over.

But the genie is out of the lamp and it must be addressed.

-spence

we have thriving US Nazi groups - Is Israel chanting death to america?
We eat beef - are Hindus rioting in protest?
We have satanic churches - Is the Vatican threatening retaliation?

We are only worried about offending one religious group. Why? They blow themselves up and they behead people. Thats nuts.

We are only worried about offending one religious group. Why? They blow themselves up and they behead people. Thats nuts.
Because we're at war in two Islamic nations, Islamic nations are in proximity to many of the World's hot spots, Islamic nations hold much of the Global energy reserves and Islamic nations suffer from a lot of poverty and political oppression.

Geopolitcs have evolved for this to be the case, and we're a big player in the production.

This isn't rocket science.

-spence

I thinking you're making a gross generalization.

There are a lot of Muslims in the US and other parts of the World that while disgusted aren't going to pick up arms over this.

The issue is, and has always been, the areas where mainstream meets the fringe that feed extremism. Often this is in poor areas, although that doesn't mean the interests of the impoverished are limited just to the poor. There's certainly is a lot of mistrust of the West in many Islamic nations, which from a certain perspective on many issues is understandable.

Actions that reinforce this mistrust will almost certainly be used to stoke the flames by the fringe to embolden their position. Even many moderates will be let down by the perceived affront. Hence my comment earlier about the Chinese Finger Trap.

Does this mean we should be held captive by political correctness?

Absolutely not, but it also means we shouldn't loose sight of common sense either. A "stunt" such as this has no real value but has the potential to cause real harm. It's a shame that the story was ever covered in the first place. Let the bigots bask in their hate and it would have all passed over.

But the genie is out of the lamp and it must be addressed.

-spence


you're wrong ( again)

- "You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan or Afghanistan" as a result of the proposal by the Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center, Obama said on ABC's "Good Morning America."

- The diplomat warned that if Florida Pastor Terry Jones goes ahead with his plans to burn copies of the Quran, it will set off a massive reaction in parts of the Muslim world.


- Hundreds of angry Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" on Thursday to protest plans by a small American church to torch copies of the Muslim holy book on the anniversary of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

- "If Quran is burned it would be beginning of destruction of America," read one English-language banner held up by the protesters, who chanted "Down with America!"

- Iran's Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki also warned of repercussions, saying the burning would "face reactions by the world's Muslims as well as followers of other religions," according to the official IRNA news agency.


gross generalization Spence?

One would think that when we say we are right and they are wrong, that by buring a bunch of copies of the koran, we are lowering ourselves right down to their level..

The guy who is doing this is what i would think we can safely call a religious extremist.

we have thriving US Nazi groups - Is Israel chanting death to america?

Only because we provide billions to them in funding do they not.

We eat beef - are Hindus rioting in protest?

They're too busy minding their own business. You know, what we should have been doing all along...

We have satanic churches - Is the Vatican threatening retaliation?

The Vatican really doesn't care about other religions. They're only concerned with their own and their kiddie touchers.

the saddest part of all of this to me is that the "main" reason most feel its a bad idea is because we "fear" that muslims will retaliate and somehow hurt innocent people or our troops. That stands against everything I believe. You may think this pastor is a wacko - but the REAL reason Americans have fought and died is for freedom and our constitutional rights. Americans should not fear retaliation for individual actions they perform under the law. IMHO - fear is all the terrorists have, and if we give into it, they win.
They won with the Dutch newspaper, they won in Spain (train bombing/Iraq pullout).

Ask yourself, do you truly beleive in this - ""I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,"

Isnt that what makes our country great?

I can agree with this....but on the flip side if some Muslim Whacko puts a bullet in his head after he does this...I'm really not going to shed any tears for this guy............and his family (well, maybe his kids).

I always tell my kids that they have choices...some good, some bad. With every choice you make comes an action, make good choices and the action usually is a good one. Make bad choices and its probably going to be a bad action....but its your choice.....make it and be willing to deal w/ what comes afterwards.

This guy is choosing to burn the Quran...have a ball. But if you get terrorized, beaten or Killed because of YOUR choice....don't come whining to me about it.

People get beaten and/or killed here in the USA every day for antagonizing the wrong person(s) for stupid reasons....

here's a match buddy......knock your self out.

[QUOTE=.

This guy is choosing to burn the Quran...have a ball. But if you get terrorized, beaten or Killed because of YOUR choice....don't come whining to me about it.

.[/QUOTE]

arent we sworn as a nation to protect him and uphold the constitution?
Some people choose to vote.
Some people choose to pray.
Some people choose to write inflamatory articles.
Some people choose to protest.
All protected.
this guy has a guaranteed right by the constiution and the president is sworn to uphold it.
this is tough stuff, but I think this is why he is doing it. Who do we as a country stand with, him for exercising his right or for foreign nations and/or extremists? I think the answer is a tough one, but I dont feel there is any room for debate.

arent we sworn as a nation to protect him and uphold the constitution?


Yep, we are......

Now if a guy waltz's into Harlem and starts screaming the "N" word.....and he gets his ass kicked. Does he have the same right to be protected under the constitution....sure he does.....did he get what he deserved for being a friggin moron.......sure he did.

When do we start screaming about all the tax dollars being spent on protecting people who are doing stupid things......ya know....all this protection does cost money.

Yep, we are......

Now if a guy waltz's into Harlem and starts screaming the "N" word.....and he gets his ass kicked. Does he have the same right to be protected under the constitution....sure he does.....did he get what he deserved for being a friggin moron.......sure he did.

When do we start screaming about all the tax dollars being spent on protecting people who are doing stupid things......ya know....all this protection does cost money.

I agree, in the koran case, Im looking at it in a different light since its international pressure and potential international threats. If american muslims beat the crap out of him, they'd be wrong but I would feel better about it.

read this -

Press review: Who will stop 'crazy' Quran-burning priest? - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/09/quran.burning.media.reaction/index.html?hpt=T1)

You have to laugh. Spence/Likwid and others here is the "problem" in black and white. Muslim press/nations equating the killings, suicide bombings, and other terrorist acts with a guy burning a book. There saying he is an extremist and just as bad as their extremists.

I would classify him more as a Reality TV Star than an Extremist......just looking for his 15 minutes.

Ask yourself, do you truly beleive in this - ""I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,"

Isnt that what makes our country great?

I posted that quote last week and had just come into this thread to post it again.

His actions are protected by the Constitution, plain and simple.

If people want to start squashing people's protected rights because the actions are offensive, let's start with those di%&#eads from the Westboro Baptist Church.

you're wrong ( again)

- "You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan or Afghanistan" as a result of the proposal by the Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center, Obama said on ABC's "Good Morning America."

- The diplomat warned that if Florida Pastor Terry Jones goes ahead with his plans to burn copies of the Quran, it will set off a massive reaction in parts of the Muslim world.


- Hundreds of angry Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" on Thursday to protest plans by a small American church to torch copies of the Muslim holy book on the anniversary of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

- "If Quran is burned it would be beginning of destruction of America," read one English-language banner held up by the protesters, who chanted "Down with America!"

- Iran's Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki also warned of repercussions, saying the burning would "face reactions by the world's Muslims as well as followers of other religions," according to the official IRNA news agency.


gross generalization Spence?
Yes, gross generalizations.

You're talking about small groups of people, you're talking about signs in "English" intended for Western media consumption, and you're talking about an Iranian government employee who's going to stirr the pot as only Iranians can.

Certainly some will use the event for violence, but most likely this would be driven by those intending violence regardless...like the Taliban fighting US Troops.

We'd see demonstrations (hell, we already are) but again these are usually orchestrated and often contrived. Do the people feel passionate about it? Sure, but again, there's already resentment towards the West that this feeds into.

Think of them like a Glenn Beck rally.

-spence

read this -

Press review: Who will stop 'crazy' Quran-burning priest? - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/09/quran.burning.media.reaction/index.html?hpt=T1)

You have to laugh. Spence/Likwid and others here is the "problem" in black and white. Muslim press/nations equating the killings, suicide bombings, and other terrorist acts with a guy burning a book. There saying he is an extremist and just as bad as their extremists.
Remember, they're also pandering to their audience just like our media does.

-spence

Remember, they're also pandering to their audience just like our media does.

-spence

Hey Spence. Are you gonna fish at all this fall? You owe me a plug and I was hoping to get it from you in person. Put down the bottles and binky's and grab your gear. I'll get RIJimmy to come too. If the fishing is bad, you can at least try hitting on him again.:)

I agree, in the koran case, Im looking at it in a different light since its international pressure and potential international threats. If american muslims beat the crap out of him, they'd be wrong but I would feel better about it.

huh?...you know, if someone that opposed the GZ Mosque were to suggest that while wrong, someone "beating the crap out of" Rauf in retaliation after the completion of the thing would make them "feel better about it"...I'd find that pretty offensive....I guess it ok to beat the crap out of someone if it has international consequences or if they're "being a friggin moron"?...why not just lop off the koran burning guys head?....if beating the crap out of him, while wrong, would make you feel better...watching his head roll around on the ground might give you a little chubby...

Hey Spence. Are you gonna fish at all this fall? You owe me a plug and I was hoping to get it from you in person. Put down the bottles and binky's and grab your gear. I'll get RIJimmy to come too. If the fishing is bad, you can at least try hitting on him again.:)
Already plotting, I agree a joint trip should be in order...land or sea.

-spence

huh?...you know, if someone that opposed the GZ Mosque were to suggest that while wrong, someone "beating the crap out of" Rauf in retaliation after the completion of the thing would make them "feel better about it"...I'd find that pretty offensive....I guess it ok to beat the crap out of someone if it has international consequences or if they're "being a friggin moron"?...why not just lop off the koran burning guys head?....if beating the crap out of him, while wrong, would make you feel better...watching his head roll around on the ground might give you a little chubby...

no, no, no, no, no - you're taking my reply out of context. See Dad F's reply to me on N word in Harlem
I take a stong stance on protecting this pastor as an american, against threats from outside the country. I dont care what other countries think about us and we should defend out rights, wacky or not. Its our constitutional obligation.
But as Dad F points out, I go to a Pats game and yell " Brady sucks a$$" and get my head beat in, thats different.

Breaking News.... Imam agrees to move mosque and Pastor calls off book burning.

Breaking News.... Imam agrees to move mosque and Pastor calls off book burning.

Buck, not breaking news...multiple news sources already reporting the Iman says it's all BS.

My guess is the FL pastor is playing games to try and come out ahead. And to think all this grandstanding is just adding fuel to the fire...

Buck, your buddy sure is a real low life.

-spence

Buck, not breaking news...multiple news sources already reporting the Iman says it's all BS.

My guess is the FL pastor is playing games to try and come out ahead. And to think all this grandstanding is just adding fuel to the fire...

Buck, your buddy sure is a real low life.

-spence

I know it's BS Spence. CNN, my go to news network, had it as "Breaking News".
Besides....Never trust an Imam

Which buddy? I have so many low life friends your going to have to name names.:buds:

no, no, no, no, no - you're taking my reply out of context. See Dad F's reply to me on N word in Harlem
I take a stong stance on protecting this pastor as an american, against threats from outside the country. I dont care what other countries think about us and we should defend out rights, wacky or not. Its our constitutional obligation.
But as Dad F points out, I go to a Pats game and yell " Brady sucks a$$" and get my head beat in, thats different.

oh, right ....I see....

if you say the N word in Harlem and get beaten or yell "Brady sucks" at a Pats game and you get your head beat in or "a guy is choosing to burn the Quran...have a ball. But if you get terrorized, beaten or Killed because of YOUR choice....don't come whining to me about it."
because what ?...you probably deserved it ???

you guys were pretty clear....sounds like violence in the face of what?...the wrong words or non-violent action..is acceptable? expected? deserved?

wow?

seems to me this insignificant nut in Florida proved that he could ignite the religeon of peace... world wide... simply by stating that he'd burn something printed on paper in his little corner of nowhere....doesn't say much for the muslim world now does it?

seems to me this insignificant nut in Florida proved that he could ignite the religeon of peace... world wide... simply by stating that he'd burn something printed on paper in his little corner of nowhere....doesn't say much for the muslim world now does it?
Good point, one might question if a lot of this is really about religion after all.

-spence

if you want to read about stuff burning and have a little time on your hands....Google "muslim unrest" or "muslim riots" and then the country of your choice....France, England, China, Australia, Spain, Netherlands...any of the middle east or african countries...on and on....try the same with any other religeon...just for comparison
Sweden...Cambodia, Phillipines, Indonesia, Greece........Germany, Ireland...Russia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan

if you want to read about stuff burning and have a little time on your hands....Google "muslim unrest" or "muslim riots" and then the country of your choice....France, England, China, Australia, Spain, Netherlands...any of the middle east or african countries...on and on....try the same with any other religeon...just for comparison
Sweden...Cambodia, Phillipines, Indonesia, Greece........Germany, Ireland...Russia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan


great piece today....
The Eternal Flame of Muslim Outrage - Article - National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/246165/eternal-flame-muslim-outrage-michelle-malkin)

I agree, this "stunt" once again showed the muslims true colors. Been saying that this whole thread. Barbaric religious uncivilized loons. But that will be lost to most as they focus on the crazy pastorn not the WORLDWIDE reaction. Our secretary of defense call him, the president pleads with him. The mightiest nation in the world bows to islamic fear. Osama, you've won.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The mightiest nation in the world bows to islamic fear. Osama, you've won.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
It's not about bowing in fear, it's about staying true to who we say we are.

This entire stunt with the pastor was such a big deal only because it came on the heels of the Islamic Cultural Center controversy in New York. That was only such a big deal because people are exploiting fear of Islam for political gain.

We can have free speech in the country and let the crazies be crazies without it being a problem. But when the Right Wing is acting like MSG, primarily to serve their own interests, then they infringe on all our rights.

Sure, we have the right to ask for responsibility from Muslims abroad, but who are we to ask if we can't even practice what we preach?

Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak.

-spence

It's not about bowing in fear, it's about staying true to who we say we are.

This entire stunt with the pastor was such a big deal only because it came on the heels of the Islamic Cultural Center controversy in New York. That was only such a big deal because people are exploiting fear of Islam for political gain.

We can have free speech in the country and let the crazies be crazies without it being a problem. But when the Right Wing is acting like MSG, primarily to serve their own interests, then they infringe on all our rights.

Sure, we have the right to ask for responsibility from Muslims abroad, but who are we to ask if we can't even practice what we preach?

Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak.

-spence


This is not about the "fringe Right". You really are clueless.

This is not about the "fringe Right". You really are clueless.
And you don't read. Remember what happened last time when you didn't read?

The scary part is you have fringes on both sides influencing a good part of the middle. They're going to lead everyone to war before you know it.

-spence

spence, you've lost it.
They can burn the bible, torah, koran, whatever - separation of church and state......right?
Practice what we preach? we preach individual FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!
responsibility from muslims abroad???? for stoning people, for suicide bombers? for all kinds of inhumane tasks. THIS GUY WAS BURNING A F"IN BOOK!!!
He wasnt doin one damn thing to ANYONES freedom to practive their religion.

welcome to america, dont like it? hurt your feelings? spend a month in Saudi Arabia and try to get a beer and pick up a girl. You'll be thrown in jail or beheaded.

It's not about bowing in fear, it's about staying true to who we say we are.

This entire stunt with the pastor was such a big deal only because it came on the heels of the Islamic Cultural Center controversy(oh, no...he could have done this anytime and the examples above prove the reaction would be similar) in New York. That was only such a big deal because people are exploiting fear of Islam for political gain. based on what is evident worldwide and the very open threats when Islam doesn't get it way..should we not fear?
We can have free speech in the country and let the crazies be crazies without it being a problem. But when the Right Wing is acting like MSG, primarily to serve their own interests, then they infringe on all our rights. mono sodium glutomate?

Sure, we have the right to ask for responsibility from Muslims abroad, but who are we to ask if we can't even practice what we preach? where exactly have we not practiced what we preached, for the millionth time, noone has said he couldn't build the GZ Mosque only that he shouldn't build it there...I think like 80% of Americans and a large majority of New Yorkers...wow...the crazy Right Wing has really expanded

Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak.currently the oppsite is true, at least according to Rauf
-spence

you obviously can't hold all muslims as violent but a quick look around the globe show far more than a just tiny minority of radicals causing the trouble, just as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have claimed to speak for the black community, Rauf claims to speak for the muslim community and he nothing but a two faced weasel who works shady deals and uses fear, racism and demands for tolerance to further his agenda...hope he continues to do interviews...IT'S GREAT WHEN "MODERATE MUSLIMS" SUGGEST THAT VIOLENCE WILL OCCUR FROM "RADICAL MUSLIMS" IF THE "MODERATE MUSLIMS" DON'T GET WHAT THEY WANT

spence, you've lost it.
Nope, still in control.

They can burn the bible, torah, koran, whatever - separation of church and state......right?
Practice what we preach? we preach individual FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!

From an outside perspective many think we preach individual freedom when we choose, and that our beliefs don't apply to them. Why else would we let Israel punish Palestinians, ship off children and old men to GITMO and inflict tens or hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties all in the name of Freedom?

Is anyone more free as a result?

Agree or disagree this is a very real and very common viewpoint outside of the US, and not just by Muslims. Hell, just go north a few hours to CANADA, 'ey.

responsibility from muslims abroad???? for stoning people, for suicide bombers? for all kinds of inhumane tasks.
You're generalizing again.

THIS GUY WAS BURNING A F"IN BOOK!!!
He wasnt doin one damn thing to ANYONES freedom to practive their religion.
As I said above, the real issue here isn't about the pastor. The white elephant in the room is how American's fear and mistrust of Islam is being exploited.

welcome to america, dont like it? hurt your feelings? spend a month in Saudi Arabia and try to get a beer and pick up a girl. You'll be thrown in jail or beheaded.
Ahh, the old "we must be right because we're better than them" defense.

I think I'd rather lead by example.

-spence

[QUOTE=spence;793807]Nope, still in control.



that was awesome :uhuh:

In control like Chris Mattews on a "the right sucks and is ruining the world" rant

Nope, still in control.



From an outside perspective many think we preach individual freedom when we choose, and that our beliefs don't apply to them. Why else would we let Israel punish Palestinians, ship off children and old men to GITMO and inflict tens or hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties all in the name of Freedom?

Is anyone more free as a result?

Agree or disagree this is a very real and very common viewpoint outside of the US, and not just by Muslims. Hell, just go north a few hours to CANADA, 'ey.


You're generalizing again.


As I said above, the real issue here isn't about the pastor. The white elephant in the room is how American's fear and mistrust of Islam is being exploited.


Ahh, the old "we must be right because we're better than them" defense.

I think I'd rather lead by example.

-spence

the fear and mistrust of islam is not being exploited - its rationale is being highlighted. did anyone in their right mind thing the reaction would be different? DEATH TO AMERICA!!!!
and for the record, our beliefs do not apply to them. thats why we have different laws. dont turn this into some broad reaching discussion, this is a guy in Florida wanting to do something that insults muslims and they turn it into a worldwide incident because. NONE OF THE WORLDS FREAKIN BUSINESS.

Quote:
responsibility from muslims abroad???? for stoning people, for suicide bombers? for all kinds of inhumane tasks.

You're generalizing again.

really? Are their LAWS in Iran that permit stoning? Are there state sponsored (Libya, Iran, Previously Iraq) agencies that support suicide bombers? See, you have the "vicitm" mentality hat on, you are wrong. Do women have rights in musliom countries? Its not generalizing its FACTS. I dont write their laws, maybe you do? tell me spence, if I go to Saudi Arabia and yell Allah sucks ******, how long will I live? thats not a generalization, its a fact.

just a few crazy radical......

A crowd, which a government official estimated at 10,000, poured out of mosques into the streets of Faizabad, the capital of Badakhshan in Afghanistan's northeast, after special prayers for Eid al-Fitr, the end of the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan.

One protester was shot dead when a smaller group attacked a German-run NATO base in Faizabad, hurling stones at the outpost, a spokesman for the provincial government said.

Afghan security forces rushed to the scene to restore order, and three police were hurt when stones the crowd was hurling hit them, the spokesman said.

A spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force in Kabul the force is aware of the Faizabad protests and were checking the incident.

Eight Christian aid workers were killed by unidentified gunmen in remote and rugged Badakhshan last month. wow - where was the muslim uproar, aid workers????Several hundred gathered in a northern district of Kabul, while about 2,000 marched on a government building in western Farah, officials and witnesses said. There were also protests in nearby Badghis in the northwest and Ghor and Herat in the west.

Similar protests over perceived desecration of Muslim symbols have led to dozens of deaths in Afghanistan in recent years, including after a Danish newspaper published a cartoon depicting the Prophet Muhammad in 2005.
'We Will Attack U.S. Bases,' Muslim Cleric Warns

In eastern Nangahar, tribal chiefs threatened to attack NATO bases near the Pakistan border if Jones went ahead with the plan. "If they do this, we will attack American bases and close the highway used by convoys supplying American troops," a cleric named Zahidullah told Reuters.
At mosques in the capital, clerics also labeled the plan dangerous. "Muslims are ready to sacrifice their sons, fathers and mothers for Islam and the Koran," one preacher said at one Kabul mosque to cries of "Allahu Akbar" (God is Greatest). silly, dont they know its only the radical fringe, just ask spence!

The polls are seen as a key test of stability in Afghanistan before Obama conducts a war strategy review in December. Obama has said the plan, dismissed by conservatives and liberals alike as an attention-seeking stunt, would be a "recruitment bonanza" for al Qaeda.

tell me spence, if I go to Saudi Arabia and yell Allah sucks ******, how long will I live? thats not a generalization, its a fact.

WHEN THEY CUT YOU HEAD OFF...DON'T GO CRYING TO THE DAD FISHERMAN....

WHEN THEY CUT YOU HEAD OFF...DON'T GO CRYING TO THE DAD FISHERMAN....

Dad F has been pretty sane on this issue. Suprisingly its spence who is way out there.

WHEN THEY CUT YOU HEAD OFF...DON'T GO CRYING TO THE DAD FISHERMAN....

Actually, if you go to Faizabad and get in the middle of this and yell Allah Sucks.........and they cut your head off, don't come crying to me.

The biggest issue with the people arguing in this thread is that you're trying to rationalize the motivations of people who base their actions on an irrational topic - religion.

The Crusades, Jihad, the Taiping Rebellion the longest and deadliest of wars in human history, all motivated by one premise - you don't believe in the same religious figure as I do or you call him by a different name, therefore you should die.

The biggest issue with the people arguing in this thread is that you're trying to rationalize the motivations of people who base their actions on an irrational topic - religion.

The Crusades, Jihad, the Taiping Rebellion the longest and deadliest of wars in human history, all motivated by one premise - you don't believe in the same religious figure as I do or you call him by a different name, therefore you should die.

EXACTLY !! and ALL of these cultures have moved on except one! Just one......and the only religion in the world that we have a modern day potential for war and violence is ________________

EXACTLY !! and ALL of these cultures have moved on except one! Just one......and the only religion in the world that we have a modern day potential for war and violence is ________________

Freikin Lutherans....those bastards

This is what I dont get. This is from the imam who was negotiating with the wacky pastor.

The imam said he feels Jones is a "good person at heart" who simply got himself into a difficult position and could not back down despite calls from Christian and world leaders.

"He could not back down, and I felt that it's my responsibility, as the Muslim leader in central Florida, to go up to him and speak one-on-one with him and explain that he's putting American lives in danger and he should reconsider."

So, why is the imam saying American lives are in danger and asking the pastor to stop instead of saying to the muslims worldwide that this act does not impact our religion and is the work of a small group of people. Then say that we are a peaceful religion and should not harm anyone.
The Imam agrees that PEOPLE OF HIS RELIGION will kill people. And it appears its ok???? Whats the real "wrong" here, buring the Korans or killing people as a result????? For me, this is the core of the problem with the Muslim "voice". They do not speak up about the atrocities that are commited in their religions name. Here is a perfect example. The message - dont do it because mulsims in the world will kill americans. Huh????

RIJ, you're posting nonsense too quickly. I can't keep up...at least ScottW is pacing himself. Scott, thank you...

My favorite was your evidence that all Muslims are crazy, by citing a presently inflamed, already extreme part of a war torn country that's seen little but death and destruction for the past 30 years.

Why can't these people just pull themselves up by their bootstraps?

EXACTLY !! and ALL of these cultures have moved on except one! Just one......and the only religion in the world that we have a modern day potential for war and violence is ________________
And from another perspective American and Russian bombs caused far more death and destruction than any actions taken in the name of Islam the last 30 years.

Instead of focusing on the religion, you should try taking a look at the history and present geopolitical environment that has shaped the modern world.

Most of the Islamic countries we see as higher risk didn't even exist or pretend to self govern until the 1940's. The influence of crumbling Colonization (followed immediately by the Cold War) combined with the abundance of fossil fuels (not to mention strategic geographic locations) on regional policies can't be ignored when trying to understand the situation or possible outcomes.

But you Jimmy just want them to let bygones be bygones and move along already.

Who's going to cut my head off again?

-spence

The biggest issue with the people arguing in this thread is that you're trying to rationalize the motivations of people who base their actions on an irrational topic - religion.

The Crusades, Jihad, the Taiping Rebellion the longest and deadliest of wars in human history, all motivated by one premise - you don't believe in the same religious figure as I do or you call him by a different name, therefore you should die.

wiki

Immediate cause

The immediate cause of the First Crusade was the Byzantine emperor Alexios I's appeal to Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist Muslim advances into territory of the Byzantine Empire.

*Barry Soetoro should order NASA to build the Ground Zero Mosque...after all, he did order it NASA's prime objective to make the muslim world feel good about themselves and it will probably look kinda like a rocket...right?

RIJ, you're posting nonsense too quickly. I can't keep up...at least ScottW is pacing himself. Scott, thank you...

My favorite was your evidence that all Muslims are crazy, by citing a presently inflamed, already extreme part of a war torn country that's seen little but death and destruction for the past 30 years.

Why can't these people just pull themselves up by their bootstraps?


And from another perspective American and Russian bombs caused far more death and destruction than any actions taken in the name of Islam the last 30 years.

Instead of focusing on the religion, you should try taking a look at the history and present geopolitical environment that has shaped the modern world.

Most of the Islamic countries we see as higher risk didn't even exist or pretend to self govern until the 1940's. The influence of crumbling Colonization (followed immediately by the Cold War) combined with the abundance of fossil fuels (not to mention strategic geographic locations) on regional policies can't be ignored when trying to understand the situation or possible outcomes.

But you Jimmy just want them to let bygones be bygones and move along already.

Who's going to cut my head off again?

-spence


um, er, ah, um - whats that have to do with some guy buring a book?

um, er, ah, um - whats that have to do with some guy buring a book?

they are victims :uhuh:

they are victims :uhuh:

makes sense. Also, how does Spence's reply factor into all the Muslim unrest in the rest of the world you posted? I love the Sweden one. Those swedes are an intolerant bunch. yes, its everyones fault. They have a right to their actions.

I hope the book burning won't risk the lives of our troops. At least not as much as the Obama supported release of Gitmo pictures.

I hope the book burning won't risk the lives of our troops. At least not as much as the Obama supported release of Gitmo pictures.
Funny, and all the while I thought it was the subject matter of the photos which was the problem.

-spence

Funny, and all the while I thought it was the subject matter of the photos which was the problem.

-spence

No.

Hmmm, wonder if I go back to that thread,which side of the fence you were on.:rotf2:

Can we at least agree that Islam has a problem with terrorism that other religions don't seem to have. You can't fix the problem if you won't confront the truths.

makes sense. Also, how does Spence's reply factor into all the Muslim unrest in the rest of the world you posted? I love the Sweden one. Those swedes are an intolerant bunch. yes, its everyones fault. They have a right to their actions.
I think Europe shares a lot of the blame for their issues with Islam, which of course, have their roots in history along with a general intolerance of outsiders in general.

For instance the flap last year in Switzerland to constitutionally ban the construction of minarets was driven by the Right wing through a campaign of fear similar to what we've seen here at home. France has had many issues with Islam, as they've never dealt with the assimilation of north African colonies. Sweeden's problems probably have more to do with the collapse of the welfare state more than anything else...and ABBA.

Of course, America is (and is) supposed to be different. We should be setting the standard rather than using the failure of others as an excuse for average or bad behavior.

It won't surprise me at all if we see actual legislation being proposed to limit the "spread" of Islam in the US just as they already have in Europe. The seeds have already been planted...

-spence

Can we at least agree that Islam has a problem with terrorism that other religions don't seem to have. You can't fix the problem if you won't confront the truths.From a Western perspective, Islam absolutely has a problem with radicalization and terrorism, and I'd say that many Western or more liberal Muslims would also share this view.

But I don't think this is a product of Islam as much as Islam has been a contributing factor. Certainly there's an element of piety to Islam that's much stronger than in most mainstream religions, and this can exacerbate geopolitical issues.

Our religious wackos are probably no more crazy than theirs, but the ground rules outside of the First World (and to a lesser degree) are quite different than what we're used to.

Just as you can't comprehend living under Sharia, they can't comprehend the First Amendment. Remember that...

-spence

I think Europe shares a lot of the blame for their issues with Islam, which of course, have their roots in history along with a general intolerance of outsiders in general.

For instance the flap last year in Switzerland to constitutionally ban the construction of minarets was driven by the Right wing through a campaign of fear similar to what we've seen here at home. France has had many issues with Islam, as they've never dealt with the assimilation of north African colonies. Sweeden's problems probably have more to do with the collapse of the welfare state more than anything else...and ABBA.

Of course, America is (and is) supposed to be different. We should be setting the standard rather than using the failure of others as an excuse for average or bad behavior.

It won't surprise me at all if we see actual legislation being proposed to limit the "spread" of Islam in the US just as they already have in Europe. The seeds have already been planted...

-spence

see..it's not Islam... it's everyone else that makes them mad and want to burn things and kill people
hey Spence, you do know that in Europe the right is really the left, right?

see..it's not Islam... it's everyone else that makes them mad and want to burn things and kill people
hey Spence, you do know that in Europe the right is really the left, right?
Well, that's not at all what I said. Perhaps that's your problem...understanding that another viewpoint exists isn't an endorsement.

And no, the left in the EU isn't the reverse of our Right. You're just confusing parliamentary parties in the UK.

-spence

they are victims :uhuh:


Victims of what?

Victims of what?

Lame sarcasm.

-spence

I would suggest Rauf sit down with the Muslim moderates and watch
"The Day The Towers Fell."

As a religious people they should be able to see why the area around the 16 acres destroyed is sacred ground
and how their building would adversely affect the families,friends and citizens of our country.

It's a no brain-er for a people who do care about others.

Victims of what?

victims of non-muslim oppression dating back to the Crusades and victims of hate whose flames have been fanned through the ages by the "right-wing" with hateful propoganda created for political purposes unjustly characterizing Islam as the one religeon causing great disturbance around the globe...

the Swiss banned the minarets because they didn't want those islamic missiles dotting their pristine countryside...have you see a picture of those things? I told you NASA should build the GZ Mosque..right up their alley...

Well, that's not at all what I said. Perhaps that's your problem...understanding that another viewpoint exists isn't an endorsement.

-spence

didn't say it was an endorsement...more like a very weak defense and shifting blame...it's not Islam..it is Europe's inability to embrace Islam and unwillingness to support the spread of Islam with never ending social welfare programmes...if only they were more tolerant in Europe :rotf2:

Caldwell: There is no welfare state on the scale of that in Europe, and I think welfare states are a bad fit for large-scale immigration. In an ethnically diverse society, people are less familiar with each other, and they are correspondingly less willing to pay taxes for social benefits. Two-thirds of the imams in France are on welfare. There is nothing wrong with being an imam. But I don't think the French are very happy about paying what is effectively a state subsidy for religion in that way.

Interview conducted by Mathieu von Rohr

pretty good interview from der spiegel
Christopher Caldwell on Muslim Integration: 'It's Much Better If Things Are Discussed Openly' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,668750,00.html)

i destroyed mine this morning..


http://i.imgur.com/QYNbR.jpg

didn't say it was an endorsement...more like a very weak defense and shifting blame...it's not Islam..it is Europe's inability to embrace Islam and unwillingness to support the spread of Islam with never ending social welfare programmes...
You were assuming culpability, I was simply assessing the situation. A lot of Islamic immigration to the EU is a result of colonialism which gives them legal rights to government services. Many European countries have well established welfare systems and many Europeans have a history of intolerance to outsiders.

I don't think any of this is really debatable, it all adds to the formula and little of it is driven by the Muslims themselves...

Or are you asserting that European actions over the past two centuries haven't contributed to the situation?

Caldwell: There is no welfare state on the scale of that in Europe, and I think welfare states are a bad fit for large-scale immigration. In an ethnically diverse society, people are less familiar with each other, and they are correspondingly less willing to pay taxes for social benefits. Two-thirds of the imams in France are on welfare. There is nothing wrong with being an imam. But I don't think the French are very happy about paying what is effectively a state subsidy for religion in that way.
I'd generally agree with this, but also note that it's the Francophiles and not the Imams really in charge of future French policy.

-spence

I would suggest Rauf sit down with the Muslim moderates and watch
"The Day The Towers Fell."

As a religious people they should be able to see why the area around the 16 acres destroyed is sacred ground
and how their building would adversely affect the families,friends and citizens of our country.

It's a no brain-er for a people who do care about others.

If it's that sacred, shouldn't the larger area be turned into a gigantic park? Do the strip clubs and bars that are there today make the proper statement of remembrance? Should we allow any new construction?

If it's Islam that offends the sanctity of the location, shouldn't we also prohibit Muslims, or at least traditional Islamic dress visible to others?

You do know the planned location is already used as a mosque today. Should we have this shut down immediately?

-spence

If it's that sacred, shouldn't the larger area be turned into a gigantic park? Do the strip clubs and bars that are there today make the proper statement of remembrance? Should we allow any new construction?

If it's Islam that offends the sanctity of the location, shouldn't we also prohibit Muslims, or at least traditional Islamic dress visible to others?

You do know the planned location is already used as a mosque today. Should we have this shut down immediately?

-spence

Spence, you just don't get it, your over the top.

This has nothing to do with what bars, strip clubs, Mosques or garbs that were there before the attack.

It has to do with the sesnsitivity for the families and friends of the victims
after an insane attack against innocent people.

Any religion should take that sesnitivity into consideration.

Spence, you just don't get it, your over the top.

This has nothing to do with what bars, strip clubs, Mosques or garbs that were there before the attack.

It has to do with the sesnsitivity for the families and friends of the victims
after an insane attack against innocent people.

Any religion should take that sesnitivity into consideration.
Unless the issue isn't Islam itself, how is the presence of Muslims near Ground Zero insensitive? It's not like the attack killed only Christians, Hindus, Atheists and Jews.

If the 9/11 families and friends (i.e. most all of America) have a problem with Islam, that is the white elephant in the room that should be discussed. Not turn the presence of a mosque, that already exists (I believe it opened after 9/11), into a political circus.

If the objective is sensitivity, then the most vocal critics certainly have failed miserably. The rallies today protesting both sides of the mosque issue are a perfect example.

-spence

Unless the issue isn't Islam itself, how is the presence of Muslims near Ground Zero insensitive? It's not like the attack killed only Christians, Hindus, Atheists and Jews.

If the 9/11 families and friends (i.e. most all of America) have a problem with Islam, that is the white elephant in the room that should be discussed. Not turn the presence of a mosque, that already exists (I believe it opened after 9/11), into a political circus.

If the objective is sensitivity, then the most vocal critics certainly have failed miserably. The rallies today protesting both sides of the mosque issue are a perfect example.

-spence

The mosque currently is the guys apartment. Do you consider that a legitimate place of worship?
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Hey he does have a THRONE to sit on right? :grins:

The mosque currently is the guys apartment. Do you consider that a legitimate place of worship?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Lol. And a sacred scroll
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

yup...

The Washington Examiner reveals some creative tax filing by Imam Rauf and reveals who is funding him..


Feisal Abdul Rauf, the New York imam and State Department envoy who wants to build a controversial new mosque at Ground Zero, applied for - and received - tax-exempt status from the IRS in 1998 for another mosque about 10 blocks from the Ground Zero site, stating that he was already holding prayer services there for up to 500 daily worshippers.


But when the Investigative Project on Terrorism checked out the information Rauf provided to the government on his IRS 1023 form, they discovered that 201 W. 85th Street was a 17-story Manhattan apartment building with no public spaces large enough to accommodate 500 daily worshippers. And Apartment 10 E was a one-bedroom, 800-square-foot unit that would have trouble holding even 50.


In their 1998 tax filing, Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khan, former director of the American Sufi Muslim Association, said that they wanted to build "a large scale prayer center in New York City...The center will include a mosque (prayer place) where every Friday and daily large congregation prayers and meditation centers will be held." However, IPT says, "ASMA records don't indicate that the center was ever built."[snip]


A recent financial statement by ASMA reported donations from the United Nations Population Fund, the Dutch government, MDG3 Fund, the Hunt Alternatives Fund, Carnegie Corp., the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, and the Qatar government.

yup...

The Washington Examiner reveals some creative tax filing by Imam Rauf and reveals who is funding him..


Feisal Abdul Rauf, the New York imam and State Department envoy who wants to build a controversial new mosque at Ground Zero, applied for - and received - tax-exempt status from the IRS in 1998 for another mosque about 10 blocks from the Ground Zero site, stating that he was already holding prayer services there for up to 500 daily worshippers.


But when the Investigative Project on Terrorism checked out the information Rauf provided to the government on his IRS 1023 form, they discovered that 201 W. 85th Street was a 17-story Manhattan apartment building with no public spaces large enough to accommodate 500 daily worshippers. And Apartment 10 E was a one-bedroom, 800-square-foot unit that would have trouble holding even 50.


In their 1998 tax filing, Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khan, former director of the American Sufi Muslim Association, said that they wanted to build "a large scale prayer center in New York City...The center will include a mosque (prayer place) where every Friday and daily large congregation prayers and meditation centers will be held." However, IPT says, "ASMA records don't indicate that the center was ever built."[snip]


A recent financial statement by ASMA reported donations from the United Nations Population Fund, the Dutch government, MDG3 Fund, the Hunt Alternatives Fund, Carnegie Corp., the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, and the Qatar government.

Is his wife's name really Daisy ??? I love that. Maybe she works at one of the local stripper clubs.

Are you serious? The man and his wife sound like they're cleaner than most members of Congress.

The funding is definitely suspicious though. CarnegieCorp? Rockefeller Fund? The Dutch Government???

I did have to look up the MGD3 Fund. Here's what found on the homepage.

‘It’s unacceptable that people are discriminated and subordinated because of their gender.’ Bert Koenders, Dutch Minister for Development Cooperation



‘Gender Equality and the Empowerment of Women’, the third Millennium Development Goal is a priority of the Dutch government. More action is needed to truly create a society where men and women are equal and enjoy the same rights and opportunities. Women struggle for equal rights, economic justice and a safe environment. Often with limited financial means but with a strong commitment and interest. For themselves, their families and their communities. Worldwide there is a fight against poverty, but special attention needs to be given to violence and discrimination against women.



Concrete action is called for to achieve equality between women and men. As a result Dutch NGO’s, companies and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs have decided to put their back into the fund: MDG3 Fund: Investing in Equality. Each provides a unique contribution to the realization of Millennium Development Goal 3.

This must be some insidious plot to enact Sharia Law through...um...

What was your point again?

-spence

It's not about bowing in fear, it's about staying true to who we say we are.

There are different "we" with different opinions of who we are. "We" don't have as unified opinion of who we are as the opinion Muslims, aparently, have of who we are.

This entire stunt with the pastor was such a big deal only because it came on the heels of the Islamic Cultural Center controversy in New York. That was only such a big deal because people are exploiting fear of Islam for political gain.

Politicians for or against the mosque can be accused of exploiting both controversies for political gain. But that would be a gross generalization. And the pastor's stunt could well have been an Alinskyish tactic of provoking the enemy into its typical peaceful behavior of rioting or killing.

We can have free speech in the country and let the crazies be crazies without it being a problem. But when the Right Wing is acting like MSG, primarily to serve their own interests, then they infringe on all our rights.

Wow! Talk about gross generalizations!

Sure, we have the right to ask for responsibility from Muslims abroad, but who are we to ask if we can't even practice what we preach?

What is it, again, that we are supposedly preaching?

Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak.
-spence

Gee Spence, for someone who is as familiar and approbative of Alinsky tactics as you are, how do you fail to see how Obama's team have infiltrated the fringe right, posing as right wingers blaming Islam for all our ills instead of blaming Obama?

What was your point again?

-spence

the point was a follow up on Nebe's point that America's favorite Imam with no formal religeous training has been enjoying tax exempt status since 1998 claiming to run a mosque out of his 800 squarefoot 1 bedroom apartment...I'm shocked that the UN is sending money his way...I think I'll open a mosque in my basement...

the more you look, the more he looks like, Sharpton, Jackson and the nut in Florida

Good lord I agree with Scott Must be the Newport water I have been drinking all summer
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Now that the Koran was not burnt, that there will be no more killing of American troops.

Good lord I agree with Scott Must be the Newport water I have been drinking all summer
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

you can be the first member of my mosque...

I'm penning a letter to the UN right now requesting funding through the MDG3 Fund for our mosque based on the fact that we will be promoting gender equality because in our mosque everyone will be worshipping in the basement...not just the women, children and livestock...but EVERYONE...I can't guarantee I'll be able to add a missile to my roof however, my neighbors will NOT be down with that...and they aren't even Swiss...


I just got something in that you are really going to like, "EBEN"

I've had a lot of historical and non-historical items with various names over the last 20+ years but this is the first time I've had or even seen a piece of early pottery with the name EBEN

I would suggest Rauf sit down with the Muslim moderates and watch
"The Day The Towers Fell."

As a religious people they should be able to see why the area around the 16 acres destroyed is sacred ground
and how their building would adversely affect the families,friends and citizens of our country.

It's a no brain-er for a people who do care about others.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spence, my original post has nothing to do with the questions you posted about it.

It's self explanatory, and has to do with Islam being at heart a peaceful religion, with teachings of religious tolerance and respect for others.

Therefore imo, they should be understanding of the feelings of the ones whose lives were forever affected by the evil act by a radical group of their religion.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spence, my original post has nothing to do with the questions you posted about it.

It's self explanatory, and has to do with Islam being at heart a peaceful religion, with teachings of religious tolerance and respect for others.

Therefore imo, they should be understanding of the feelings of the ones whose lives were forever affected by the evil act by a radical group of their religion.

This, in my opinion, is implicating all of Islam in the attack. Just like all the Japanese on the west coast of the US were implicated in Pearl Harbor.

New York is a very diverse city, and Muslims already live, work and pray in the shadow of the twin towers. Muslims (no, not the hijackers smartass) were killed in the attacks.

To say that a cultural center intended to promote interfaith communication (and equal rights for women, perhaps one of the central issues within Islam today) is not sensitive because of a shared faith with Bin Laden doesn't make any sense to me.

Just because they both call it Islam they clearly don't really share the same faith.

Given the large amount of mistrust of Islam in this country I can see how some might feel offended regardless. That being said, a solution based on fear doesn't seem logical if the objective really is peace.

As I've mentioned earlier, this issue seems to have always been about the (partially manufactured) controversy, and not really about the actual center itself and Imam and his wife.

-spence

Welcome to the thread.

There are different "we" with different opinions of who we are. "We" don't have as unified opinion of who we are as the opinion Muslims, aparently, have of who we are.
This statement implies there's a unified Islamic position as to what America is. This clearly is not the case. Hell, there isn't even a unified Islamic position as to what Islam is.

Politicians for or against the mosque can be accused of exploiting both controversies for political gain. But that would be a gross generalization. And the pastor's stunt could well have been an Alinskyish tactic of provoking the enemy into its typical peaceful behavior of rioting or killing.

I'm not aware of much mosque support intended for political gain, given some polls it could bring political pain.

But your comment makes me think...Is a poor, uneducated teenager in Afghanistan who perhaps doesn't even have a choice to participate in a protest against Americans burning the Koran...the ENEMY?

I guess he is if you want to make it be.

Note to all: A very good book -> http://www.amazon.com/Way-World-Story-Truth-Extremism/dp/0061430625


Wow! Talk about gross generalizations!
I think the politicization of this issue by the Right has been pretty clear.

What is it, again, that we are supposedly preaching?
We preach the rule of law, respect of life etc... which from another perspective we don't seem to follow.

Gee Spence, for someone who is as familiar and approbative of Alinsky tactics as you are, how do you fail to see how Obama's team have infiltrated the fringe right, posing as right wingers blaming Islam for all our ills instead of blaming Obama?
I don't think Dems in general have the stones to pull it off.

-spence

Welcome to the thread.

Thanks. Probably should have stayed out of the thread, as I really didn't care if the Korans were burned or not. It would have been exciting, and the "news" loves excitement. I agree with those who think the Muslim response, if as threatened or predicted, would have been more idiotic, lawless, and to be pleaded against than the tiny group of book burners. And the Muslim response should not have been merely predicted by Muslim leaders, but they should have been the ones to demand that such responses not occur.

This statement implies there's a unified Islamic position as to what America is. This clearly is not the case. Hell, there isn't even a unified Islamic position as to what Islam is.

No, it implies that the Islamic position re America is not necessarily unified, but more unified than our opinions of who we are. That's, admittedly, just a guess based on the bulk of the "reports" that we get, and the supposition that Islamic societies are not as diverse as ours is. I should have excluded American Muslims from my statement since I view them as part of the disunified perceptions we have of ourselves--which is the real point of my response to your saying "it's about staying true to who we are."--and which you didn't answer.

My real implication is we are divided in this country, maybe more so than ever, and staying true to who we say we are will result in a different true for a different we--even to the point of being diametrically opposed. Vive la diversity.

And the we that oppose the GZ Mosque or wish to burn Korans may disagree fundamentally with the we who oppose them. But they don't disagree on a constitutional basis.

I'm not aware of much mosque support intended for political gain, given some polls it could bring political pain.

There might be some political game from American Muslims, various immigrants, and those who think it's mean spirited and un-American to oppose the mosque. And there is, as you say, the big possibility of backlash pain. But there would be more political gain to oppose the Koran burners as typical right wing nuts.

But your comment makes me think...Is a poor, uneducated teenager in Afghanistan who perhaps doesn't even have a choice to participate in a protest against Americans burning the Koran...the ENEMY?

I don't think the book burners were thinking of the poor Afghan kid who wouldn't participate in a protest, but they might have been thinking about the thousands, maybe tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of whackos who would protest.

I guess he is if you want to make it be.

As I said, I didn't care one way or the other.


I think the politicization of this issue by the Right has been pretty clear.

I don't think it's been all that clear. What you may consider politicization may be an honest opinion of a different minded we.

We preach the rule of law, respect of life etc... which from another perspective we don't seem to follow.

What laws have been broken? Which lives have been taken?

I don't think Dems in general have the stones to pull it off.
-spence

So WE have different perspectives on Dem stones. Over the past several years, it has appeared to this we that the Dems have exercised more balls, in every way, than the Republicans, who have so often acted like eunuchs. I think the latter's fear of "main stream" press has contributed to their castration.

Gee Spence, for someone who is as familiar and approbative of Alinsky tactics as you are, how do you fail to see how Obama's team have infiltrated the fringe right, posing as right wingers blaming Islam for all our ills instead of blaming Obama?

Wow.
your stuff must be strong! it is making you a bit paranoid though.... :smash:

Wow.
your stuff must be strong! it is making you a bit paranoid though.... :smash:

yeah, that's crazy, things like that have never happened....

"...in the spring of 1972, at Tulane University...students asked Alinsky to help plan a protest of a scheduled speech by George H. W. Bush, then U.S. representative to the United Nations - a speech likely to include a defense of the Nixon administration's Vietnam War policies. The students told Alinsky they were thinking about picketing or disrupting Bush's address. That's the wrong approach, he rejoined, not very creative - and besides causing a disruption might get them thrown out of school. He told them, instead, to go to hear the speech dressed as members of the Ku Klux Klan, and whenever Bush said something in defense of the Vietnam War, they should cheer and wave placards reading, ‘The KKK supports Bush.' And that is what they did, with very successful, attention-getting results."


Planting major falsehoods has been a favorite Alinsky strategy from the start. His acolyte, Barack Obama, learned his Industrial Areas Foundation lessons on deceiving for power while on a side trip during his Harvard years, then taught the Alinsky power tactics at the University of Chicago.

Spence, I have never condemned or ever will condemn the mainline Muslim Faith for 9/11.That was the act of a radical group.
I have always admired the many Muslims I have known for their strong allegiance to their families, and would think they would have feelings for all families as well..

For the last time, as my original post said, I am suggesting that the mainline Muslim faith, as a religion,
should understand how putting their building so close to the 9/11 site would adversely affect the feelings of the families and friends of the victims and simply move their building to a different location.

BTW- no need for name calling. :)

Wow.
your stuff must be strong! it is making you a bit paranoid though.... :smash:

I guess my stuff is stronger than I thought. I assumed it was obvious that, with a scenario which hasn't happened, I was demonstrating absurdity with absurdity. Certainly, infiltrating to deceive is a tactic, as Scott points out, that has been used. Sarcasm, irony, do need some illusion of credibility. I didn't think anyone would take it seriously. It was, after all, a response to Spence's remark--"Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak." That you didn't see paranoia in that statement is curious.

Since Spence is doling out book advice I thought I would too. I posted this last year. It is an unbelievable read. After you click the link, scroll down for a brief description.

Amazon.com: America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It (9780895260789): Mark Steyn: Books (http://www.amazon.com/America-Alone-End-World-Know/dp/0895260786)

It would have been exciting, and the "news" loves excitement.
I'd say the audience loves excitement, the news is just a business after all.

I agree with those who think the Muslim response, if as threatened or predicted, would have been more idiotic, lawless, and to be pleaded against than the tiny group of book burners. And the Muslim response should not have been merely predicted by Muslim leaders, but they should have been the ones to demand that such responses not occur.
It looks like the Muslim response to the issue was comparable to the actual Muslims responding. Western Muslims were quite rational on the issue, while poor, uneducated Muslims in war torn areas were more likely to react with violence. I think 10 have died in Afghanistan today just trying to hold an election.

Islamic violence is regularly condemned by Muslim leadership around the world, although I'm not sure many are listening. With the current climate of Islamophobia, speaking out can get you whacked from either side.

If perhaps the most noteworthy Imam in the US and trusted adviser to our Presidents can't get a fair shake, why would they?

No, it implies that the Islamic position re America is not necessarily unified, but more unified than our opinions of who we are. That's, admittedly, just a guess based on the bulk of the "reports" that we get, and the supposition that Islamic societies are not as diverse as ours is. I should have excluded American Muslims from my statement since I view them as part of the disunified perceptions we have of ourselves--which is the real point of my response to your saying "it's about staying true to who we are."--and which you didn't answer.
This is a good question, but not one that I think can be easily answered in a few paragraphs.

I would say that in the US there is a common bond (The American Dream) which isn't exclusive to any one group. Are there Muslims in the US who would take the Koran over the Constitution? Sure, but I'll bet I can find a lot more who would do the same with the Bible.

As for unification of Islamic positions, you'd have to break this out into issues to perhaps understand it. Palestine is certainly an issue with general Islamic consensus, but you'll also get a similar level of support from many Western nations and even liberals in the US.

Perhaps the biggest issue in Islam today is the role of the woman. I'm not sure even this is very unified throughout Islam, and is very heavily influenced by local conditions, especially in the Third World.

My real implication is we are divided in this country, maybe more so than ever, and staying true to who we say we are will result in a different true for a different we--even to the point of being diametrically opposed. Vive la diversity.
I'd agree the level of division is quite alarming. A very real threat to the American Dream is when people question if it really applies to everyone.

And the we that oppose the GZ Mosque or wish to burn Korans may disagree fundamentally with the we who oppose them. But they don't disagree on a constitutional basis.
Sure...

There might be some political game from American Muslims, various immigrants, and those who think it's mean spirited and un-American to oppose the mosque. And there is, as you say, the big possibility of backlash pain. But there would be more political gain to oppose the Koran burners as typical right wing nuts.
I didn't see many looking to gain from support of the Mosque issue, and considering the public sentiment it would be hard to see the benefits. I did see many on the Right quick to pretend there was parity between the two events though, sort of a "well if one's wrong the others wrong" logic that doesn't make a lot of sense, at least to me. It did seem to make some feel better about opposing the Mosque though.

I don't think the book burners were thinking of the poor Afghan kid who wouldn't participate in a protest, but they might have been thinking about the thousands, maybe tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of whackos who would protest.
Give the kid a few more years.

I don't think it's been all that clear. What you may consider politicization may be an honest opinion of a different minded we.
To some degree this is certainly true, although with the Mosque issue it seems to be a situation of political exploitation.

This project was announced last December, reported in the NYTimes and didn't cause a ruckus. The Laura Ingraham interview with the Imam's wife (in the John Stewart video) wasn't so noteworthy because it was an attack on Fox News as you seemed to suggest, it was that in December even a bomb throwing pundit remarked that "I can't find many people who really have a problem with it" and "I like what you're trying to do."

When the project was approved what followed was an all out onslaught of anti-Islam propaganda characterizing the center as a temple to the 9/11 hijackers. Then the story rapidly became a big national issue.

What changed? Well, the facts around the purpose of the planned center didn't seem to change. It was the controversy being pushed from the fringe that was different, and this was the first glimpse of the issue that most Americans got. Hence my remarks that this story isn't really about the Mosque, but rather the controversy surrounding it.

I wouldn't call this a simple difference of opinion when the opinion seems to have been manufactured. That's political...

What laws have been broken? Which lives have been taken?
For our critics it's as simple as those outside the US believing we don't follow the same rules we expect of others over the years. Be it protecting Israel at the UN for decades, claiming we respect life but killing tens and tens of thousands of civilians when it's in our interest, ignoring human rights when countries have things we need, saying we don't torture and treat prisoners with respect...then abu Graib, renditions etc...

That these things may be technically legal or suit our interests at the time isn't really the point. What should be considered is the impact they may have whether we like it or not...instead we get "you're perfect, just keep shopping".

So WE have different perspectives on Dem stones. Over the past several years, it has appeared to this we that the Dems have exercised more balls, in every way, than the Republicans, who have so often acted like eunuchs. I think the latter's fear of "main stream" press has contributed to their castration.
I don't think Republicans fear the press as much as they do their own party. As they say...Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line :)

-spence

I'd say the audience loves excitement, the news is just a business after all.

If you're correcting my quip that the "news" loves excitement by saying that the audience not the "news" is what loves excitement, I'd say that the "news" is nothing without an audience, and the business function of the "news" is to get and enlarge an audience much as do the "whores" and "porn peddlers" like Limbaugh and Stewart, and that the "news" is sold to the audience in packages of exitement, and so the "news" loves the excitement as a commodity as much as the audience, and how could it be otherwise since "news" and audience are parts of the same trick.

It looks like the Muslim response to the issue was comparable to the actual Muslims responding. Western Muslims were quite rational on the issue, while poor, uneducated Muslims in war torn areas were more likely to react with violence. I think 10 have died in Afghanistan today just trying to hold an election.

As I said "I agree with those who think the Muslim response . . . would have been more idiotic, lawless, and to be pleaded against than the tiny group of book burners."

Islamic violence is regularly condemned by Muslim leadership around the world, although I'm not sure many are listening. With the current climate of Islamophobia, speaking out can get you whacked from either side.

I agree that speaking out against Islamic violence can get you whacked by Islamic extremists, but are you saying that it can also get you whacked by those who oppose the violence? Has this happened?

If perhaps the most noteworthy Imam in the US and trusted adviser to our Presidents can't get a fair shake, why would they?

How is he not getting a "fair shake"? Did he speak out against the Islamic violence and get whacked?

By the way, if Islam has been high-jacked by "extremists," doesn't that mean that the "extremists" are in charge? If the "moderates" want to own Islam, don't they have to get rid of the high-jackers? How can the "moderates" claim to represent "true" Islam if the high-jackers own the religion? Does "regularly" condemning the violence get rid of the high-jackers? When planes were high-jacked, were the pirates removed by condemning them? What are the radical Islamists condemned to? Death? Imprisonment? Fines?

This is a good question, but not one that I think can be easily answered in a few paragraphs.

I would say that in the US there is a common bond (The American Dream) which isn't exclusive to any one group.

Are you saying that Americans are unified in our opinions of who we are because of the so-called "American Dream? We all have the same dream?

Are there Muslims in the US who would take the Koran over the Constitution? Sure, but I'll bet I can find a lot more who would do the same with the Bible.

Certainly a disuniter.

As for unification of Islamic positions, you'd have to break this out into issues to perhaps understand it. Palestine is certainly an issue with general Islamic consensus, but you'll also get a similar level of support from many Western nations and even liberals in the US.

Perhaps the biggest issue in Islam today is the role of the woman. I'm not sure even this is very unified throughout Islam, and is very heavily influenced by local conditions, especially in the Third World.

All well and good, but this has nothing to do with what I spoke of--Islamic opinion of who Americans are.

I'd agree the level of division is quite alarming. A very real threat to the American Dream is when people question if it really applies to everyone.

So the so-called "American Dream" is not a uniter but a divider.

I didn't see many looking to gain from support of the Mosque issue, and considering the public sentiment it would be hard to see the benefits.

But to gain support by trying to make "conservatives" look foolish for opposing the mosque--a la Jon Stewart.

I did see many on the Right quick to pretend there was parity between the two events though, sort of a "well if one's wrong the others wrong" logic that doesn't make a lot of sense, at least to me. It did seem to make some feel better about opposing the Mosque though.

The pretence is in your eyes not in the minds of those "on the right." It seems that you're quick to "politicize." And there was not a pretence to "parity" in so-called sensitivity. The reaction to building the mosque is "can you build it elsewhere?" The predicted response to the burning of Korans is large scale mayhem.

Give the kid a few more years.

Is the kid instructed, trained by Imam Rauf, or by his govt., or society, to abstain from mayhem in a few more years, or is that behavior solely dependent on what Americans do?

To some degree this is certainly true, although with the Mosque issue it seems to be a situation of political exploitation.

No political exploitation yet.

This project was announced last December, reported in the NYTimes and didn't cause a ruckus. The Laura Ingraham interview with the Imam's wife (in the John Stewart video) wasn't so noteworthy because it was an attack on Fox News as you seemed to suggest, it was that in December even a bomb throwing pundit remarked that "I can't find many people who really have a problem with it" and "I like what you're trying to do."

No political exploitation yet.

When the project was approved what followed was an all out onslaught of anti-Islam propaganda characterizing the center as a temple to the 9/11 hijackers. Then the story rapidly became a big national issue.

No political exploitation yet.

What changed? Well, the facts around the purpose of the planned center didn't seem to change. It was the controversy being pushed from the fringe that was different, and this was the first glimpse of the issue that most Americans got. Hence my remarks that this story isn't really about the Mosque, but rather the controversy surrounding it.


No political exploitation yet.

I wouldn't call this a simple difference of opinion when the opinion seems to have been manufactured. That's political...

No political exploitation yet. I don't recall Republicans blaming the Dems for the Mosque. The change in opinion was created by a few (as is usually the case) who saw a historical connection between this mosque (the Cordoba Project) and its patronimically antecedent mosque built in Cordoba Spain to commemorate that conquest. It didn't seem to get political until Obama made his statement as to the constitutional right to build it. Most of the Public wasn't aware of the mosque plans until some "fringe" pointed out what they saw as symbolism of conquest on "hallowed" ground. If the opinion was "manufactured", is that equal to "being made aware"? Manufacturing is good, no? Don't we bitch about losing our manufacturing base?

But no political implications were made (except for implying that "right wingers' were bigots, etc., for opposing the mosque.)

For our critics it's as simple as those outside the US believing we don't follow the same rules we expect of others over the years. Be it protecting Israel at the UN for decades, claiming we respect life but killing tens and tens of thousands of civilians when it's in our interest, ignoring human rights when countries have things we need, saying we don't torture and treat prisoners with respect...then abu Graib, renditions etc...

That these things may be technically legal or suit our interests at the time isn't really the point. What should be considered is the impact they may have whether we like it or not...instead we get "you're perfect, just keep shopping".

So, by this as a response to my asking, re the Koran burners, "what laws have been broken? What lives have been taken?" your answer is a twisting, arguable, non-responsive and irrelevant way of admitting that no laws have been broken, no lives have been taken.

I don't think Republicans fear the press as much as they do their own party.

You mean they fear the Tea Party? So do the Dems.

As they say...Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line :)

-spence

Never heard that. Probably because it's cutesy BS. Anyway, politics today has Republicans not knowing which line to fall in and Dems in lockstep

Since Spence is doling out book advice I thought I would too. I posted this last year. It is an unbelievable read. After you click the link, scroll down for a brief description.

Amazon.com: America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It (9780895260789): Mark Steyn: Books (http://www.amazon.com/America-Alone-End-World-Know/dp/0895260786)
That looks interesting, I was hoping they'd just happen to have it at the airport (as I was in between books) but no luck.

There was a book about liberals and Islam and how they were both going to destroy us, but I just couldn't get over the Malkin review on the back.

Instead I picked up a copy of Thomas Sowell's "Intellectuals and Society." It's certainly not light reading (nor is the book light, I had to have the First Class flight attendant hold my copy to keep my hands free for the drinks) but is quite good so far.

Thanks for the response Butch, this will give me something to read on the BBery waiting for the next flight.

-spence

That looks interesting, I was hoping they'd just happen to have it at the airport (as I was in between books) but no luck.


-spence

thats not the kind of book they sell at airports, you dont want to get "you know who" upset before boarding a plane :devil2:

bronko - I got the book from the library, great read so far. Things are much worse than I had imagined. I get to work today and get a warnign that our India locations may be disrupted due to violence. A court decision is expected to be announced today. So....I wonder, who could it be that would cause violence from a court case? I had my suspicions but want to be open minded. I googled and you'll never believe who is invlolved! I'll let you guess.

bronko - I got the book from the library, great read so far. Things are much worse than I had imagined. I get to work today and get a warnign that our India locations may be disrupted due to violence. A court decision is expected to be announced today. So....I wonder, who could it be that would cause violence from a court case? I had my suspicions but want to be open minded. I googled and you'll never believe who is invlolved! I'll let you guess.

Eskimos?

Significant Developments in Terror Threats Since 9/11,
Officials Say
Napolitano, Mueller, Leiter Discuss Increased Tempo of Attacks Against U.S.

Sept. 22, 2010
The nation's top counterterrorism officials were blunt. The threat from within---of Americans willing to commit terrorist acts--- is growing. FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III told a congressional hearing today that a spike in recent terrorism cases is direct evidence of the evolving threat.

"Groups affiliated with al Qaeda are now actively targeting the United States and looking to use Americans or Westerners who are able to remain undetected by heightened security measures," Mueller said. "It appears domestic extremism and radicalization appears to have become more pronounced based on the number of disruptions and incidents."

" Napolitano said, "To be clear, by homegrown, I mean terrorist operatives who are U.S. persons, and who were radicalized in the United States."

Eskimos?

Significant Developments in Terror Threats Since 9/11,
Officials Say
Napolitano, Mueller, Leiter Discuss Increased Tempo of Attacks Against U.S.

Sept. 22, 2010
The nation's top counterterrorism officials were blunt. The threat from within---of Americans willing to commit terrorist acts--- is growing. FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III told a congressional hearing today that a spike in recent terrorism cases is direct evidence of the evolving threat.

"Groups affiliated with al Qaeda are now actively targeting the United States and looking to use Americans or Westerners who are able to remain undetected by heightened security measures," Mueller said. "It appears domestic extremism and radicalization appears to have become more pronounced based on the number of disruptions and incidents."

" Napolitano said, "To be clear, by homegrown, I mean terrorist operatives who are U.S. persons, and who were radicalized in the United States."

There will be a number of libs that will chime in that we deserve it, its our own fault. I guess they werent impressed the POTUS nobel pace prize.

I am glad you are reading it Jimmy, its very interesting book. A real wake-up call.

There will be a number of libs that will chime in that we deserve it, its our own fault. I guess they werent impressed the POTUS nobel pace prize.

it's most likely the fault of the Tea Party who, for the most part, are racist, bigoted, intolerant, white male Islamophobes and who are now spawning the creation of terrorists domestically with their rallies and support of witches just as Bush created terrorists abroad with his unjust wars and God talk...

it's most likely the fault of the Tea Party who, for the most part, are racist, bigoted, intolerant, white male Islamophobes and who are now spawning the creation of terrorists domestically with their rallies and support of witches just as Bush created terrorists abroad with his unjust wars and God talk...

I think thats the exact reason they're worried about riots in India today.

I think thats the exact reason they're worried about riots in India today.

they should rule that the Hindu's and Muslims both screw and put a golf course on the site...might save a couple thousand lives this time...let the Maoist insurgents run the golf course and practice a little capitalism to placate them for a while and maybe they'll learn something...:uhuh:

I get to work today and get a warnign that our India locations may be disrupted due to violence. A court decision is expected to be announced today.

Maybe your company should move their offices back over here and create jobs for Americans...:hihi:

Maybe your company should move their offices back over here and create jobs for Americans...:hihi:

I agree, but it all comes down to $. IT heads in the US are too expensive.
Imagine this -
Right now, the Stimulus (per recovery.gov) pumped somethin like 250 BILLION into tax relief. I dont know anyone thats seen that $ but lets just suppose its accurate.
Imagine if you spent say 5 billion and built 5 IT colleges in the most depressed part of this country. Places like Detroit, mid-west, deep south. You then fund another 5 Billion to support the colleges over 5 years. The schools will ONLY be open to people that are below a certain income - poor people. I think that would be feasible. Then, you go to the top 25 companies in the US that out source IT resources. You offer them amazing incentives to build IT infrastructure in the same regions as these IT colleges. tax breaks, free internships (from the schools), cheap real estate, etc. You put incentinves for the graduates - 2yr program then a work for $/employer funded program for after work additinal 2yr program for them to stay put and work at the regional centers.
These companies get cheap IT resources, the regions get a huge influx of construction jobs and service jobs, the regions grow with $ from the IT jobs. You educate the poor, you build our technology infrastructure and companies get cheap labor. All for less that a 25 billion investment. Imagine the HUGE dividends this would pay!
No ideas at all come from either the dems or repubs, its just throw money at old ideas ( hey, lets build roads!). These are the hip ideas we need and this is CHANGE! I'll take some of this socialism if it makes people work!

Would be nice....but would never happen......you forgot to add in the politician's cut.......back up to $250B

Would be nice....but would never happen......you forgot to add in the politician's cut.......back up to $250B

why not? We're Americans, we can make it happen! It would work!

then take the ball and run w/ it.....

I dont know anyone thats seen that $ but lets just suppose its accurate.

I'm pretty sure this year we got a pretty large credit on cash we paid into my step-son's college tuition that was directly from the Stimulus bill.

-spence

I'm pretty sure this year we got a pretty large credit on cash we paid into my step-son's college tuition that was directly from the Stimulus bill.

-spence

you're welcome.

you're welcome.

:rotflmao::rotflmao:

I agree, but it all comes down to $. IT heads in the US are too expensive.

They're not if you do it right, but hey, keep supporting India.

you're welcome.
It was reinvested into the economy to stimulate growth.

-spence

It was reinvested into the economy to stimulate growth.

-spence

you bought penis enlargement pills?