A buddy of mine sent this to me this morning...passing it on FYI

These are the official numbers of striped bass caught and caught and released by recreational fishermen for the Atlantic Coast and for Massachusetts. In both cases it is off approx. 70 to 75% since 2006. :fury:

Do you see a problem? :smash:

Well that's pretty depressing.

DZ

Actually, selfishly, it cheers me up as my numbers (especially last year) reflect that data... (ok, it really is depressing)

Hopefully the changes in how they figure juvenile recruitment will allow them to put the brakes on and reduce take both recreationally and commercially all across the board.

Cutting one to benefit the other is not going to reduce pressure enough on the fish. Got back to 2006 regs (05?) and then cut a third.

You know what would help fix this? 1@36" and no comm season.

It's a good thing we needed all those hearings with that impotent regulatory body to debate having a quota increase or not.

You know what would help fix this? 1@36" and no comm season.

What would really help is to stop the illegal winter fishing in the southern areas!

would be curouis to know if the number of people fishing and the time fishing has gone down also. working in a tackle shop i can tell you that the number of people coming in in the last few years has dropped by 50 percent and the number of boats that fish in this area is way down,even though the fishing has been pretty good.i would really like to know what the actual biomass of bass is verus what is being caught.

Recreational Fishery Statistics Catch Snapshot Query (http://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/st1/recreational/queries/catch/snapshot.html)

Go through each group etc.

Something seems amiss....

"We must fall back upon the old axiom that when all other contingencies fail, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. "

Recreational Fishery Statistics Catch Snapshot Query (http://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/st1/recreational/queries/catch/snapshot.html)

Go through each group etc.

Something seems amiss....

DelMarVa Chesapeake?

DelMarVa Chesapeake?

private/shore/headboat/charter

Nothing is going to change until every state makes the same rules....Look at ME and MA there completely different.

private/shore/headboat/charter


Ahhh. I was seeing the absence of one of their key "regions" - thanks.

Lets get this straight... Recreational caught 621, 253 Striped bass.... Lets give it a conservative average of 18lbs is 11, 182, 554 lbs... That is 11 times the commercial Limit... Lets be honest here..... How many people do you know that reports there fish? those numbers are way, off still... As I said in the past Recs kill way more fish! Charter and headboats count towards rec cathes like it or not because they dont go against quotas... All Im saying is recs quit pointing fingers, we are all killing fish rec and com alike with Recs killing the largest Share....

Lets get this straight... Recreational caught 621, 253 Striped bass.... Lets give it a conservative average of 18lbs is 11, 182, 554 lbs... That is 11 times the commercial Limit... Lets be honest here..... How many people do you know that reports there fish? those numbers are way, off still... As I said in the past Recs kill way more fish! Charter and headboats count towards rec cathes like it or not because they dont go against quotas... All Im saying is recs quit pointing fingers, we are all killing fish rec and com alike with Recs killing the largest Share....
If you're gonna call people out, maybe put those 50s that you're always boasting about back.

If you're gonna call people out, maybe put those 50s that you're always boasting about back.

Have I complained once about a lack of fish?? I don't hide that I kill fish.. Just funny how people point the finger at coms. Agian those Rec numbers are grossly understated. There is no benefit of reporting a catch recreationally, I don't know any rec guys that have, they are off by much more than you think...
And I have put 50's back...

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

We (recreational advocates) claim the recreational numbers are bogus and that is the heart and soul of what drove the registry/license move along the coast. The new system is not yet in place and I for one agree with Kenny that there are way more fish caught by our community than the numbers show.

IF this is true then the numbers are skewed and there are more fish than we think as well...I state this because the number of reported fish is a part of how the overall amount is calculated.

On a related note and a far more accurate (in many more educated than myself's) opinion, the young of the year index has been on a significant decline. There has been a prpediction for at least five years that there would be a lot less maller fish and that is absolutely true.

The same scientific modeling state there are more large available and all we all know the last few years have seen an almost unbelievable amount of supercows.

We also now KNOW that Mycobacteriosis is spreading and that a lack of quality forage is part of that problem...according to scientists not me or other fishermen.

We also know that as the numbers of fish skyrocketed the recreational catch went through the ceiling and the commercial catch got one small bump and it was small.

Now that the recreational catch is falling responsible management is not to just blame the commercial quota, or poaching or anything else that isn't staring us right in the mirror...it is to cut mortality.

We need to DEMAND that our State Directors reduce mortality NOW. We need to stop blaming anyone and reduce killing as many Stripers and then protect the chit out of our forage base.

LEt's get it right. We are still above stock targets on Striped Bass. There are problems but there are always problems.

Look at that chart again. In he years the catches were highest the bulk of those fish were small. Go back and check posts about the West wall, The Narrows in Buttermilk Bay, the bulk of the fly fishing boom. It was all fueled by little fish and high liners were complaining there were not enough large. Now there are a bunch of large but the small are hard to find.

You can only support so much life in a finite space. Especially when forage is in bad shape and water is warning and...and...and.

Stop Whining and call your State Director...Are you committed enough to force by way of numbers a change or are we going to blog and whine and never make the calls needed to stop the bleeding now.

Call your state Director.


There will be analysis that will help clarify what must be done to

We (recreational advocates) claim the recreational numbers are bogus and that is the heart and soul of what drove the registry/license move along the coast. The new system is not yet in place and I for one agree with Kenny that there are way more fish caught by our community than the numbers show.

IF this is true then the numbers are skewed and there are more fish than we think as well...I state this because the number of reported fish is a part of how the overall amount is calculated.

On a related note and a far more accurate (in many more educated than myself's) opinion, the young of the year index has been on a significant decline. There has been a prpediction for at least five years that there would be a lot less maller fish and that is absolutely true.

The same scientific modeling state there are more large available and all we all know the last few years have seen an almost unbelievable amount of supercows.

We also now KNOW that Mycobacteriosis is spreading and that a lack of quality forage is part of that problem...according to scientists not me or other fishermen.

We also know that as the numbers of fish skyrocketed the recreational catch went through the ceiling and the commercial catch got one small bump and it was small.

Now that the recreational catch is falling responsible management is not to just blame the commercial quota, or poaching or anything else that isn't staring us right in the mirror...it is to cut mortality.

We need to DEMAND that our State Directors reduce mortality NOW. We need to stop blaming anyone and reduce killing as many Stripers and then protect the chit out of our forage base.

LEt's get it right. We are still above stock targets on Striped Bass. There are problems but there are always problems.

Look at that chart again. In he years the catches were highest the bulk of those fish were small. Go back and check posts about the West wall, The Narrows in Buttermilk Bay, the bulk of the fly fishing boom. It was all fueled by little fish and high liners were complaining there were not enough large. Now there are a bunch of large but the small are hard to find.

You can only support so much life in a finite space. Especially when forage is in bad shape and water is warning and...and...and.

Stop Whining and call your State Director...Are you committed enough to force by way of numbers a change or are we going to blog and whine and never make the calls needed to stop the bleeding now.

Call your state Director.


There will be analysis that will help clarify what must be done to

:kewl::kewl::kewl::kewl:

I think the problem is not the number of fish but where the food has been located. There has been a growing population of Bass offshore. Lots of food out there. There are so many bass on the tuna grounds it's amazing and yet the usual places we hit in early June have sucked the last few years.

It's not what's out there now.

It's what's going to replace what's out there now.

To use a baseball analogy " The farm system is badly depleted "

It now takes 3 times the breeders to get the same YOY as it did 20 years ago

Be nice if our kids could catch bass like we do now.


Make the calls

Makai & Buckman....I could not agree more!!!!!

I think the problem is not the number of fish but where the food has been located. There has been a growing population of Bass offshore. Lots of food out there. There are so many bass on the tuna grounds it's amazing and yet the usual places we hit in early June have sucked the last few years.

This is true all the way down the coast to nc where those fish are out to 13 miles... Just think, even all those fish th NC Trawlers are decimating this year there has been absolutely no Surf Run. Those guys in the outerbanks havent had a surf run since the early 2000's. I remember running down there and the Bass and blues chasing pogies on the beach... Remember chunking hatteras point... Its a thing of the past, almost been a decade. The only reason we have had a surf run off NJ the last few years is there have been schools of pogies on the beach in certain conditions. You take that away like you have up the coast and thats over too. I spend all my time in the spring run 2-2.99 miles out.. If it was legal Id be out further with the fish.

I'll just add to Basic Patrick's note that if you want the mortality reduced you should not only contact you state director but also your states representatives on the ASMFC. Each state has three reps on the ASMFC.

Patrick and Kenny,

I challenge you to read last winter's striped bass technical report...attachment 4, (page 10 is the summary). Here is the link http://striped-bass.com/striper-fishing/images/stories/media/jan2010SBtcReport.pdf

It shows that the ASMFC technical committee believes that recreational catch numbers are actually OVER-ESTIMATED by 50-75%.

The ASMFC (after having NOAA review the issue) has decided not to change their estimate.......but at very least both of you should be aware that there is strong reason to believe the recreational catch is actually smaller than the commercial catch.

So will you read it?

I dont know about the statistics but my catches have not dropped off in the last 5 years, to the contrary, i have caught more fish also larger fish. One of my concerns is that last year i noticed a startling lack of schoolies, i think i caught 2-3 fish under 20".

Patrick and Kenny,

I challenge you to read last winter's striped bass technical report...attachment 4, (page 10 is the summary). Here is the link http://striped-bass.com/striper-fishing/images/stories/media/jan2010SBtcReport.pdf

It shows that the ASMFC technical committee believes that recreational catch numbers are actually OVER-ESTIMATED by 50-75%.

The ASMFC (after having NOAA review the issue) has decided not to change their estimate.......but at very least both of you should be aware that there is strong reason to believe the recreational catch is actually smaller than the commercial catch.

So will you read it?

Arent these NOAA statistics actually reported by fishermen via countmyfish.gov through these new licenses we are supposed to have??? 2010 was the first year they did this? There is no way you will get me to believe the Com Catch is greater than rec up and down the coast look at the quotas then compare to how many charter / headboats/ Party Boats fish 7 days a week for 3-8months of the season depending which state and then throw in the thousands, and thousands of Rec Guys... I know you can take a dozen charterboat captains and they probably kill as many fish that are equivelent to some Comm quotas. Seriously, look at some of the people out there fishing, you think they are all reporting their catch... Numbers are way Higher not lower...
Im in now way defending Coms, just dont think its fair to put all the blame on them when Recs are to blame too. No way do I agree with the shamefull trawling and netting and intentional waste / discard of Bass down in MD, VA, NC...

George...

The TC also stated clearly that the mortality that would result form a 10% increase in the commercial quota would NOT impact the overall biomass. Thank God the managers chose to not increase mortality with a commercial bump.

I will read it again and post back. I think you have something confused in the report.

I still don't understand what point you feel this would change. One of my large points is that a proposal must be able to get passed or it is a waste of time. Politics trumps both science and common sense...all the time.

AND SINCE THOSE THAT CARE WON:T SPEND #^&#^&#^&#^& ON ADVOCACY AND PROFESSIONAL LOBBY... WE BETTER PROPOSE ITEMS THAT ARE REALISTIC

Arent these NOAA statistics actually reported by fishermen via countmyfish.gov through these new licenses we are supposed to have??? d netting and intentional waste / discard of Bass down in MD, VA, NC...

NO. Recreational numbers are made up by charter boat statistics, that are relatively accurate based on reliable sampling, and non-charter catch, that is extremely inaccurate and based on fishing effort and catch rate estimates obtained by angler sampling. The Technical committee report I gave you the link to above explains that there is good reason to believe these estimates are wildly overblown and the huge recreational catch numbers (that you and others use to chastise concerned recreational fishermen, and defend continued commercial catch quotas) are in fact pure fantasy.

It is important to realize that the ASMFC does not care, however, about what percentage of the catch is recreational, and what percentage is commercial..........they care about total catch and total population.

Since they have good reason to suspect that recreational fishing pressure is much less than the number they are using, they have good reason to suspect the fishery can handle more commercial take, hence their move to increase the commercial take.
Now keep in mind they wanted to increase the commercial take by 10%.
Yet they suspect the recreational catch is 50% over estimated.
That suggests that 100% of the non-charter recreational catch equals about 20% of the commercial catch......or that commercial landings are FIVE TIMES larger than NON-CHARTER recreational landings.

Now you can argue that charter fishing is recreational fishing, but the bottom line.......which fits my experience........is that the average schmuck recreational guys that make up 90% of the people using the resource end up killing a much smaller total share of the resource than the small number of guys making money off the fish.

Gamefish anyone?

This post is not to bitch about cmms or recs or our reps on the committees , etc. I think everyone is doing their best and its no good to point fingers and argue amongst ourselve.

What I want to comment on is the validity of the numbers that the surveyors get.

I used to be all over from the CT breachway to Napatree back when I used to get the oversand permit. I spent a lot of time down there and I also cruised all the beaches from Ninigret to Misquamicut (actually decided to delete some of the places we fished , both for our own good and for the good of the spots :) ) Anyway , we put our time in.

One weekend I was down there with my friend Chris who also used to come up all the time. Now we were into everything from eels to pogie heads , every lure under the sun , all the odball stuff like balloons , hooking the eels in the tail got tried and real good stugg like rigging them etc , we worked hard and listened while at the tackle shops , etc. We did as well as anybody was doing out there. Well one weekend we were there the whole weekend round the clock. We caught almost nothing. We also had lots of friends who were serious fisherman and would ask how they did and did they see anyone else catching , etc , etc. the whole point is that weekend , all the regular fisherman who were there all day and all night caught sqwat. Well Sunday morning about 8 AM , we were standing near the truck drinking our morning coffee and a surveyor came along. He asked us about our catch that weekend , how often we went , etc , etc. We told him we fished all the time and knew the whole game but we caught sqwat that whole weekend. He thanked us and indicated it was nice to get an honest answere from some guys who obviously fished a lot and were not screwing up his survey by lying about fish we didn't get.

Well then he goes over to this bunch of guys who had been showing up mid morning for the weekend , mostly tangling everyones lines and talking more than fishing. These guys could not catch a fish unless the typical monster blitz came drifting by and they just happened to hit a fish in the head with a multi treble hooked popper. So we listen as these know nothings , catch nothings, start telling the surveyor about how they each caught a dozen fish every day all weekend. Now we were there and we saw these guys fishing every morning and they got zip. No way , even if they fished 10 more weekends , they were not going to catch anything at all.

So now the surveyor has interviewed 6 guys total (me , Chris and these 4 fishless wonders) , 2 say almost nothing caught , 4 say they got 48 fish a day between them , and did that each day .

So now these six interviews get worked by the statistics of how many guys , say 100 in the general area , times an average of 8 fish per guy (Their lied about 48 divided by the 6 total fisherman) so the end product of the survey would show that based on a statistical sampling , there were 800 fish caught per 100 people fishing. Now maybe they estimate a 1000 fisherman along the whole coast that weekend so now the lied about 48 fish ends up about 8000 recreational fish caught in the quota calculations that weekend based on the surveys.

Now I'm not complaining about the surveyor as he was doing his best , etc , etc. The fact is that recreational catch totals are based on interviews and surveys and estimates. The baseline data around which all the estimates and statistics rely upon are info from fisherman who as a whole lie through their teeth about how many and how big they caught.

So anyway , the rec numbers are based on surveys that gather info from lying SOB's. :)

So i agree with the ASMFC tech committee that rec numbers are overestimated by 50%. Now what that does to the overall picture , I don't know.

I did see a guy on the cable the other night on Cox Channel 15 who had all kinds of data on fin and shelfish and historical comparisons and the decline of lobsters and the rise of crabs and the way the catch followed but lagged the biomass data by a couple of years , etc. Worth watching so maybe check your listing to see if they replay that 9they often do). His stats on the bass was that we had a miraculous recovery but that things were trending downward again and he hoped the committees would reduce the catch before the striper stock collapsed again rather than wait until after it happened.

1 fish a day for recs , I don't really care what size it is. I think size has offsetting effects. Allow lower you lose more fish , allow higher you lose better breeders. So that's why I say 1 fish , let the experts decide on size.

Can anyone tell me if the new license system will include a mechanism to collect catch/kill data from all licensed anglers?

Seems to me a mandatory (make participation necessary to be eligible for the following season's license?) weekly online angler survey would go a long way toward gathering real data on effort, catch, and release.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

NO. Recreational numbers are made up by charter boat statistics, that are relatively accurate based on reliable sampling, and non-charter catch, that is extremely inaccurate and based on fishing effort and catch rate estimates obtained by angler sampling. The Technical committee report I gave you the link to above explains that there is good reason to believe these estimates are wildly overblown and the huge recreational catch numbers (that you and others use to chastise concerned recreational fishermen, and defend continued commercial catch quotas) are in fact pure fantasy.

It is important to realize that the ASMFC does not care, however, about what percentage of the catch is recreational, and what percentage is commercial..........they care about total catch and total population.

Since they have good reason to suspect that recreational fishing pressure is much less than the number they are using, they have good reason to suspect the fishery can handle more commercial take, hence their move to increase the commercial take.
Now keep in mind they wanted to increase the commercial take by 10%.
Yet they suspect the recreational catch is 50% over estimated.
That suggests that 100% of the non-charter recreational catch equals about 20% of the commercial catch......or that commercial landings are FIVE TIMES larger than NON-CHARTER recreational landings.

Now you can argue that charter fishing is recreational fishing, but the bottom line.......which fits my experience........is that the average schmuck recreational guys that make up 90% of the people using the resource end up killing a much smaller total share of the resource than the small number of guys making money off the fish.

Gamefish anyone?

Charters / Headboats / Guideboats / Party Boats or whatever For Hire vessel you have taking Recs out fishing is doing exactly that Recreational Fishing. These guys dont take away from any Commercial Quota up and down the coast nor do they have their own Quota allocated to them in any species they target.

The truth is nobody will ever know the exact, or even close to the exact numbers of Fish Recs are catching.....

As for Gamefish, you can wish it all you want and its not going to happen anytime soon.. They were just trying to increase com limits this year... Especially since all the states with the exception of Maine and North Carolina,(Northern/Southern Limits - Migration water temp sensitive), Have had absolutely no problem filling their com quotas year after year. The pics of all the thousands of Dead Bass floating off the north Carolina week after week give people that dont have a clue the illusion that the ocean is paved with striped bass....

In my view I find it illogical and almost immoral to have a comm fishery on a species that is declining in numbers, having forage, breading and health issues. Nothing can justify this IMO. Comm fishing segment should be the first to be shut down when a fishery is heading for trouble. Regardless of who is catching what. Moreover if you want to talk about uncounted or inaccurate fish in terms of numbers, look no further than the comm industry. The discard numbers + black market + high grading numbers are insane, Further, the rec numbers include RELEASED fish. Rec kill is a fraction of what it was in years past.

As far as gamefish goes... it is inevitable and it will happen much sooner than you think. It is the best way to protect the species from exploitation...take the $ off this fishes head directly. Yeah you can go catch them from charter boats but there is little incentive to fill your cockpit with them anymore. (Just because you can doesn't mean you should. We should not protect the jobs of comm fisherman just because this is what they chose to do, do what is right for the species and let the chips fall where they may. ENOUGH with this maximum yield theory.

The answer is very simple:

Gamefish status
1 @ 36 rec fishing (with C&R only... if needed)
Aggressive restoration of all forage species

From the Oxford American dictionary


Commercial ( adjective )

1. Concerned with or engaged in commerce.

2. Making or intended to make a profit.
(a) Having profit, rather than artistic or other value, as a
primary aim:

It is rather obvious that we should break the accountability take pie
into thirds.

Commercial. ( selling fish )
Charter / Headboats . ( selling fishing )
Recreational.

I work some weekends as a mate on a Charter boat out of Green harbor. The general theme is a keep everything meat fishing trip. The whole attitude is to fill the box.
A far cry from most ( not all ) people that I know when they are out fishing for enjoyment.

No way it's an either or , now you would be just arguing semantics.

But this is all a mute point to our collective ignorance to the future of this fishery. The plenty of now does not mean the plenty of tomorrow.
Hell, just look at the state of our Country and economy. Aren't we all just looking around wondering " what happened ? It was so good not long ago, "
You can definitely draw some parallels to striped bass fishing, once this large biomass out there now is gone we may be in trouble.
The deterioration of the estuarine nursery may not bode well for all of us, who for work or play, pursue this fish. As I said earlier it now takes 3 times the breeders to produce the same YOY as it did 20 years ago.Something is very wrong.

Get involved.

IMO charter and head boats are not selling fish. They are selling a service; a ride out to where the fish are, rental equipment, bait and instruction. Most of the time the customers keep the fish for personal use.

To me the real difference centers around final results. On a charter 6 people go out and they get to spend a day on the water with friends and maybe catch 12 bass. For many of them this only happens once or twice a season. They pay the charter 3.5 to 6 hundred depending on location and time. They may also eat out and rent a couple of rooms. So in the end six people got to have a good day fishing and dumped some money into the economy. The boat earns about what one commercial fisherman would make if he caught 12 fish.

So the main difference is in one case 7 people benefit and in the other case only two at most when averaged (whole saler and retailer). In both cases the trickle down is still there just to different people and the fish make it to the public for use.

Can anyone tell me if the new license system will include a mechanism to collect catch/kill data from all licensed anglers?

Seems to me a mandatory (make participation necessary to be eligible for the following season's license?) weekly online angler survey would go a long way toward gathering real data on effort, catch, and release.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

No the new system is simply designed to make the telephone survey more accurate.

Those of us who cherish the striped bass fishery just need to attack this problem from every angle.

1) support the recovery of forage fish by limiting take on herring (both sea herring and alewife/blueback) and menhaden specifically
2) support catch and release (I take fewer fish now than I ever have)
3) support legislation that puts "reasonable" restrictions on commercial take
4) support clean-up of polluted spawning grounds and put penalties on those who pollute these areas
5) report poaching and other violations
6) support legislation that prevents (and penalizes) the mid-water trawler fleet and others that destroy bass as by-catch
7) encourage others to do #1 thru #6
8) encourage others to encourage others

In my view I find it illogical and almost immoral to have a comm fishery on a species that is declining in numbers, having forage, breading and health issues. Nothing can justify this IMO. Comm fishing segment should be the first to be shut down when a fishery is heading for trouble. Regardless of who is catching what. Moreover if you want to talk about uncounted or inaccurate fish in terms of numbers, look no further than the comm industry. The discard numbers + black market + high grading numbers are insane, Further, the rec numbers include RELEASED fish. Rec kill is a fraction of what it was in years past.

As far as gamefish goes... it is inevitable and it will happen much sooner than you think. It is the best way to protect the species from exploitation...take the $ off this fishes head directly. Yeah you can go catch them from charter boats but there is little incentive to fill your cockpit with them anymore. (Just because you can doesn't mean you should. We should not protect the jobs of comm fisherman just because this is what they chose to do, do what is right for the species and let the chips fall where they may. ENOUGH with this maximum yield theory.

The answer is very simple:

Gamefish status
1 @ 36 rec fishing (with C&R only... if needed)
Aggressive restoration of all forage species

:uhuh:

The worst part of the stupidity is when 3000 comercial guys really do beleive they have the same quantity rights as 3,000,000 recreational fishermen and women. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but seems a little skewed to me. Don't really give a damn most of the time now about the comercial arguement that they have the right to 50 percent of the stocks out there. reallity is that their logic has been screwey since day one. It is stupid at best and sad at worst. I kept a handfull of fish Cowhunter. You have no more right to anymore fish than I do. don't really care if your comercial or not. No one fisherman has more right than the next. BUT WE ALL HAVE THE
SAME RESPONSABILITY TO CONSERVE THE SPEICIES.The rec catch is 70 percent lower than 2005 for the rec. Means a lot of people don't catch squat anymore. Seems that the problems still comes down to selfishness. Commercials seem to never want to stop no matter how bad it gets unless they're forced to. Don't see an 20,000 recreational fish kills. MMMM funny that isn't it. Don't see a whole hell of a lot of catch an release among commercials unless it's to cull MMMMMM seems we just saw commercials idea of catch an release ooooppppssss no one said the fish had to be alive to have a chance.Just throw them overboard to get them out of the way for bigger market fish.We worked hard in the past to force the morritorium we'll just have to do it again no matter how much lieing is done. Sad for it to have to be this way. 36 in won't work we've been there .1 fish won't work we've been there.0 catch seemed to help especially when the commercial fishery was totally shut down. MMMMMM even with 30,000 commercials seems that 3,000,000 recreational has enough votes to force the issue.That's a low estimate on the REC numbers too.

The worst part of the stupidity is when 3000 comercial guys really do beleive they have the same quantity rights as 3,000,000 recreational fishermen and women. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but seems a little skewed to me. Don't really give a damn most of the time now about the comercial arguement that they have the right to 50 percent of the stocks out there. reallity is that their logic has been screwey since day one. It is stupid at best and sad at worst. I kept a handfull of fish Cowhunter. You have no more right to anymore fish than I do. don't really care if your comercial or not. No one fisherman has more right than the next. BUT WE ALL HAVE THE
SAME RESPONSABILITY TO CONSERVE THE SPEICIES.The rec catch is 70 percent lower than 2005 for the rec. Means a lot of people don't catch squat anymore. Seems that the problems still comes down to selfishness. Commercials seem to never want to stop no matter how bad it gets unless they're forced to. Don't see an 20,000 recreational fish kills. MMMM funny that isn't it. Don't see a whole hell of a lot of catch an release among commercials unless it's to cull MMMMMM seems we just saw commercials idea of catch an release ooooppppssss no one said the fish had to be alive to have a chance.Just throw them overboard to get them out of the way for bigger market fish.We worked hard in the past to force the morritorium we'll just have to do it again no matter how much lieing is done. Sad for it to have to be this way. 36 in won't work we've been there .1 fish won't work we've been there.0 catch seemed to help especially when the commercial fishery was totally shut down. MMMMMM even with 30,000 commercials seems that 3,000,000 recreational has enough votes to force the issue.That's a low estimate on the REC numbers too.

I never said anybody has the right to catch more fish..... Youre allowed your limit every day, Everybody I know keeps theres rec or com, thats their perogative. I dont see any catch and release unless the guys already caught their limits. Just how I see it for the most part... And yeah your right 3,000,000 anglers if they all kept their limit once a season thats alot of fish. You want to end commercial fishing thats fine, thats your opinion but it want solve anything its just more fish for recs to kill if their limits arent changed not gonna change any if the same regs are in place and the bait issue is the same.... And the 1 at 36" did make a huge different up and down the coast. In the end, the same guys bitchin will be bitchin and the same guys catchin will be catchin just takes some effort. Enjoy the run in Maine, maybe some fish will make it up that way agian one year! Heard the lobstermen had a record 360million harvest in 2010, not to long ago the lobster were near extinction to?

I never said anybody has the right to catch more fish..... Youre allowed your limit every day, Everybody I know keeps theres rec or com, thats their perogative. I dont see any catch and release unless the guys already caught their limits.

I didn't have a banner season, but I could have taken one home most nights and killed 4 all season that were gut hooked bleeders.

I think you are overly generalizing what does on.

Everybody I know keeps theres rec or com, thats their perogative. I dont see any catch and release unless the guys already caught their limits.

Sad

I never said anybody has the right to catch more fish..... Youre allowed your limit every day,

So you don't believe in commercial fishing for stripers either. Cause that is exactly what a commercial license is doing, giving you the right to catch more fish then the general public.

Sad

Sorry Numbskull, just how it is for the most part... I know there are those that practice C&R, Unfortunately I rarely see it...

So you don't believe in commercial fishing for stripers either. Cause that is exactly what a commercial license is doing, giving you the right to catch more fish then the general public.

Yes for 18-21 days or so in Mass u can keep and sell 30 a day..On the other hand I can fish stripers 12 months a year recreationally if I wanted to, and in NJ we can buy bonus tags and keep an extra fish every day till the quota is filled, 360,000lbs or so.. I can run 2 charters a day in NJ and come back to the dock with boat limits of 8-10 fish, (Even more if everyone has a tag 12-15)a trip, 7 days a week during the season... Now you guys up north dont see pressure, you should see the 100's of NY,NJ boats for miles that will make the MA com rod and reelers look like a tiny speck... Yeah we can go on.
Knock down the rec catch to one fish.. The com catch I could care less what they do, but it aint going away so Ill fish it, after all its gonna get filled with or without me anyway, (Or you can sit home like Sandman and Complain About it), at least there is a quota and the season is closed when its hit. Recreationally its on 7 days a week, 12 months a year from ME to NC with a few closed areas during seasons....
All there is is Finger Pointing and Blaming Others instead of fixing the problem. Sounds like Democrats and Republicans!

I didn't have a banner season, but I could have taken one home most nights and killed 4 all season that were gut hooked bleeders.

I think you are overly generalizing what does on.

I know there are exceptions.... Unfortunately I dont see many of them...

So in a nutshell it's time to stop talking and push for a moratorium since we can't seem to get those that still want it all to do whats needed.Catch an release period. Till things are fixed. Then no commercial fishing period for them and if needed a limit of 2 fish per charter for charter boats to cut down the rediculous waste off Jearsy and Virginia.Since as a group we can't seem to get beyond the greed and selfishness maybe there are enough of us that can push the issue so we have a tomorrow. Before it's too late.There are some damn good fishermen on this site and several others. None of us would be worth a damn at it without the fish. Ron

So in a nutshell it's time to stop talking and push for a moratorium since we can't seem to get those that still want it all to do whats needed.Catch an release period. Till things are fixed. Then no commercial fishing period for them and if needed a limit of 2 fish per charter for charter boats to cut down the rediculous waste off Jearsy and Virginia.Since as a group we can't seem to get beyond the greed and selfishness maybe there are enough of us that can push the issue so we have a tomorrow. Before it's too late.There are some damn good fishermen on this site and several others. None of us would be worth a damn at it without the fish. Ron

I wish you all the best of Luck, Probably may want to Look into Stripersforever or something along with your state and federal governments. I personally think it will be a little tough for you to get a moratorium based on your research from books and statistics at this stage especially with Easily filled Com Quotas and Rec Catches in the several hundreds of thousands, (I think recently the netters down in NC dumped around 20,000, (You gave that figure) dead bass into the ocean because they were over their limits a bit). You also have to prove that all these scientists dont know what they are doing and they are wrong. Remember, just this year they wanted to increase commercial quotas by 10 percent...
While you are at it You may also want to consider doing something about the Bait problem in New England, those fish will need a sustainable food supply and there really isnt much around inshore. Down here in NJ and LI the Bunker boats were kicked offshore, not allowed in the Bays. Its one of the reasons we have enjoyed such Fantastic runs of fish the last few years! Its nice to have miles of bunker along the beaches and bays....

I dont know about the statistics but my catches have not dropped off in the last 5 years, to the contrary, i have caught more fish also larger fish. One of my concerns is that last year i noticed a startling lack of schoolies, i think i caught 2-3 fish under 20".

Rob that is exactly the point. There are no small fish and we continue to kill the big fish. This what happened in the 70s. Your post is a model of the 70s.

If there is a problem at all, its a problem with recruitment, the YOY survey has been low for several years now. No one knows exactly what is causing the problem with recruitment but it certainly has nothing to do with fishing mortality. We have enough spawning stock biomass. Problems are most likely due to environmental conditions in the Chessie and weather.

More eggs in the water can't be a bad thing , can it ?

Till our molasses slow goverment agencies can get their collective acts together to work out the real issues and data.

I've read a number of theories on this, many of them allude to the mycobacteriosis problem in the bay.

Opinions vary... some say that the females are more greatly affected, as they contract the disease while in the bay, and the stress of migration does them in.

Another interesting one was that the males are the most heavily affected... Theory states that females need X number of males in close proximity to them in order for spawning to be triggered... If the males aren't there (dead, not moving/lethargic due to infection) then the females simply won't spawn. You can have plenty of big girls, but no eggs are getting spewed.

Unfortunately I don't have the links bookmarked, if I find them I'll put them up.

Any way you look at it, recruitment is probably the most pressing concern at this time.

Mako and Jack,finally two people that see what the real problem is.you can have all the bass in the world if they don't have sucessful spawn there is no future,no matter how few we kill.

Some of the comments here make me want to puke.
I am ashamed to be even loosely associated with you thru SB or simply by being called a fishermen.

Everyone (including you) have a responsibility to conserve this great fish for future generations...just because you can take the fish doesn't mean you should.

You hang out with the wrong crowd if you don't know anyone who is fishing solely to catch his "legal limit"

One of the proudest moment as a farther figure/sportsmen for me was when my 12 yo son said (as we were hammering big bass one night drifting eels in Quicks)..Dad, these fish are really big...we only need one fish, lets let the others go. He got the idea at 12... why can't you? Maybe it is in the genes...I don't know.:confused: I am just an old man who has lost his mind I guess.:confused:

one of my proudest moments was eating the first keeper my son caught.i guess as i see it if i am going to fish for it i am going to eat it.nothing worse than killing some for the sport of it,just my opinion

Yes for 18-21 days or so in Mass u can keep and sell 30 a day..On the other hand I can fish stripers 12 months a year recreationally if I wanted to, and in NJ we can buy bonus tags and keep an extra fish every day till the quota is filled, 360,000lbs or so.. I can run 2 charters a day in NJ and come back to the dock with boat limits of 8-10 fish, (Even more if everyone has a tag 12-15)a trip, 7 days a week during the season... Now you guys up north dont see pressure, you should see the 100's of NY,NJ boats for miles that will make the MA com rod and reelers look like a tiny speck... Yeah we can go on.
Knock down the rec catch to one fish.. The com catch I could care less what they do, but it aint going away so Ill fish it, after all its gonna get filled with or without me anyway, (Or you can sit home like Sandman and Complain About it), at least there is a quota and the season is closed when its hit. Recreationally its on 7 days a week, 12 months a year from ME to NC with a few closed areas during seasons....
All there is is Finger Pointing and Blaming Others instead of fixing the problem. Sounds like Democrats and Republicans!

I agree that as long as there is a commercial harvest you might just as well take advantage of it. Being from NJ and fishing the Highlands area every year I am well aware of the number of charters and the party boats also targeting stripers. I'm aware of the numbers of fish recs kill compared to commercial. I went to both the Mass and NH hearing on the commercial harvest increase to lobby against them and wrote letters and attended the recent herring hearings. I do not blame anyone other than ASMFC for what is happening. Their job is to manage the fishery in the best interest of the public and I think they are failing to do it. The big money from stripers and the greatest human factor comes from recreational fishing. If the stock numbers can only support a two fish limit for the public that would indicate to me that there are not enough fish to support a commercial fishery. If the public needs to be limited to one fish that is fine with me but is even more proof that there should be no commercial season. I'm not looking to turn the commercial harvest over to the recs like New Jersey did. I'm looking to reduce the catch by that amount. I also believe that stopping commercial fishing will stop most of what has recently happened in NC and Maryland. If you can not sell them it will greatly reduce these activities.

Maybe because NH people experience the stock drops earlier then others we are more sensitive to it. Most all of the people I know practice catch and release. Maybe keep one or two a season usually due to deep hooks. The NH members on the ASMFC striper board are also strong supports of reducing the catch.

I do also write letters and support other aspects of commercial fishing. I can not understand why there is no rec limit on haddock and some of the other ground fish. Why they don't set it at 10 like cod is beyond me. In this case I'm more than happy to give the extra fish to the commercial guys. For most fish, except maybe something like scup, once you go above 5 thats enough.

Well with the lack of small fish the 80's aren't far away. The charter pressure and bycatch pressure are huge now so the down spiral will start soon. Without little guys to replace whats caught of the cows the number of fish landed is going to drop in a lot more places besides just along the surf.So the glut isn't going to last long on the migration routes. Wonder what the excuses will be this time. Oh I remember the tournaments killed them all LOL what a joke some of what is posted is. Only thing different now than in the 70's is the names of those who don't want to do anything. Many of those calling for action now were around in the 60's to now and have seen this before and are worried as this time there are way more things in the way of restoration.Lack of money,way more seals along migration routes,worse bycatchmore sharks inshore and way more anglers. Ron

Some of the comments here make me want to puke.
I am ashamed to be even loosely associated with you thru SB or simply by being called a fishermen.

Everyone (including you) have a responsibility to conserve this great fish for future generations...just because you can take the fish doesn't mean you should.

You hang out with the wrong crowd if you don't know anyone who is fishing solely to catch his "legal limit"

One of the proudest moment as a farther figure/sportsmen for me was when my 12 yo son said (as we were hammering big bass one night drifting eels in Quicks)..Dad, these fish are really big...we only need one fish, lets let the others go. He got the idea at 12... why can't you? Maybe it is in the genes...I don't know.:confused: I am just an old man who has lost his mind I guess.:confused:

Sorry but I cant tell my clients that they have to throw everything back. Charter Boats, Head Boats, Party Boats have Paying customers that are paying to come on the boat, catch fish, and bring home meat and you cant blame them for it. Doesnt matter if its groundfish or SB. Yes I enjoy eating striped bass, sorry. I do kill some and I do let some go. I'm sorry everyone does not share the same beliefs as you do but everyone cant afford to just go out to fish for fun either....

WWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :bc . On every site u see the same thing +itching and moning. Do yourself a favor don't point ur finger at someone else. There is no I in team. I see as many dead fish on the rocks when i rec fish as i do when i com fish. I fish when the fish show up and fish til they leave. Personaly i think the recs kill way more fish. Go to the other site and watch someone post the canal was hot. Next day the road will be loaded with dead fish.:grins:. What about the striper cup lots of teams = lots lbs of dead pounds. I rather sell a 20lb fish for $ than see someone weight one in to win a $10 prize. Com go buy quota fill it its over. If they want to shut it down just get it over with and shut it down. Every winter we see the same thing com Bashing and recs clashing. The problem wont be solved if both sides dont agree with each other.

WWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :bc . On every site u see the same thing +itching and moning. Do yourself a favor don't point ur finger at someone else. There is no I in team. I see as many dead fish on the rocks when i rec fish as i do when i com fish. I fish when the fish show up and fish til they leave. Personaly i think the recs kill way more fish. Go to the other site and watch someone post the canal was hot. Next day the road will be loaded with dead fish.:grins:. What about the striper cup lots of teams = lots lbs of dead pounds. I rather sell a 20lb fish for $ than see someone weight one in to win a $10 prize. Com go buy quota fill it its over. If they want to shut it down just get it over with and shut it down. Every winter we see the same thing com Bashing and recs clashing. The problem wont be solved if both sides dont agree with each other.

People do have to work together to make anything of value happen in the long run it is not a com problem or a rec problem it is an everyone problem. To say one group had to give everything up and the other is right is foolish. Fisherman whether they like it or not have to work within the current confines of the management system or get together and come to an agreement on something that works for everyone. Conservation is about the fish not the fishermen. Everyone will need to make concessions to move forward. Otherwise we will all sit here talking about it while nothing changes.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Seems to me that what we have here is a failure to communicate. :)
"Conservation" means different things to different people and lets not confuse "conservation" with "allocation" Allocation meaning how much each sector, commercial vs recreational gets to catch. Conservation to some at one end of the spectrum seems to mean having the maximum number of fish in the water that nature can sustain. At the other end of the spectrum it seems to mean having enough fish in the water so that they can be easily caught. Neither is the basis for fishery management in this country!

Fishery management in this country is based on achieving and retaining a biomass (fish population) that is capable of providing the maximum sustainable yield (MSY). That is the most fish that can be caught year after year, and every year, without reducing the population of fish. The scientists come up with the figure for the biomass that will provide MSY. Then they do stock assessments which provide an estimate of the current biomass. Then the Acceptable Biological Catch (ABC) is estimated to either keep the biomass at MSY or rebuild it to the MSY biomass. The ABC is then adjusted by various factors to come up with the Annual Catch Limit (ACL) The regulations are then crafted using statistical models to meet the desired ACL.

The key take away for the purposes of this discussion is that the ACLs will be designed to keep the biomass at MSY. In the case of stripers the biomass is already above MSY, so there will be no tightening of the regulations. You can bitch and moan about it all you want, it won't affect national policy unless and until you get your Congressmen and Senators to change the rules of the game. Right now the ASMFC would be breaking the law to enact stricter regulation on stripers.

You could say this is spending the money in the bank.

While our direct deposit is being reduced.

Is the Rec. total lbs caught, or lbs killed? Or is it considered one in the same?

That total is probably horrifically low. I for one have never had anyone come up to me at 2 in the morning to tally up my catch for the year.

You could say this is spending the money in the bank.

While our direct deposit is being reduced.

Good analogy but (hopefully) a wrong conclusion. What we are supposed to be spending is the interest on the money in the bank and never touch the principal. We just have to hope they have the science right.

Hope ?

Now I am scared.
Just thinking how it turned out the last time someone told me to believe in Hope ( & change )

Better start taking golf lessons from Back Beach.

The key take away for the purposes of this discussion is that the ACLs will be designed to keep the biomass at MSY. In the case of stripers the biomass is already above MSY, so there will be no tightening of the regulations. You can bitch and moan about it all you want, it won't affect national policy unless and until you get your Congressmen and Senators to change the rules of the game. Right now the ASMFC would be breaking the law to enact stricter regulation on stripers.

Problem is the MSY can be the most manipulated number of all of aspects of requlation. Even ASMFC guidelines allow for adjustment based on human factors. Plus they would not be breaking the law on this in that they can adjust the MSY. The only real hard number is if they drop below the target guidelines that forces them to take action but then target numbers will change as you adjust MSY.

Determining the MSY is based on so many factors the number is close to being a pull out of your butt number. The main factor being it has to be determined on the whole bio-mass rather then just stripers. If we were looking at reaching the MSY for just stripers we would stop all bunker fishing and reduce herring, mack and squid harvest to ensure a larger food supply for stripers so the ocean could support more. If we were looking to max out the MSY harvest of bunker we would try to kill all of the bluefish and stripers. Here is where ASMFC comes into play in that they are trying to set this balancing act. You do not need to have congress change anything. You need to get ASMFC to put more focus on increasing the major food fish (stripers, blues, fluke ..) MSY. This can be done by protecting the prey fish by recognizing that the MSY needs to be lower for them because we need them to feed the food fish to support higher MSY for them.

Determining the MSY is based on so many factors the number is close to being a pull out of your butt number. The main factor being it has to be determined on the whole bio-mass rather then just stripers. If we were looking at reaching the MSY for just stripers we would stop all bunker fishing and reduce herring, mack and squid harvest to ensure a larger food supply for stripers so the ocean could support more. If we were looking to max out the MSY harvest of bunker we would try to kill all of the bluefish and stripers. Here is where ASMFC comes into play in that they are trying to set this balancing act. You do not need to have congress change anything. You need to get ASMFC to put more focus on increasing the major food fish (stripers, blues, fluke ..) MSY. This can be done by protecting the prey fish by recognizing that the MSY needs to be lower for them because we need them to feed the food fish to support higher MSY for them.

The Biomass necessary to support MSY is determined on a species for species basis. It is a finite number, there is no "max out" MSY, you are either over, under or at biomass MSY. That is true for fluke, blues, stripers and menhaden. Stripers are at a biomass over MSY, so no one is going to anything to reduce the fishing mortality on stripers. Fluke is at a biomass under MSY, so we will continue to see strict catch regulations until the biomass reaches MSY (which on target to be reached in 2013). The only "prey fish" that has a fishery management plan is Menhaden, and the menhaden biomass is at MSY, so don't expect any stricter regulations on Menhaden.

Both NMFS and ASMFC have been talking about regulating fisheries with an ecosystem approach for years, but so far neither of them has even taken a first step in that direction.

Yeah but...

I read that they changed they way they computed this number and if you used the previous method we would be well under the limit. I don't know how accurate this is but it was in the fishermen a year or so ago.

Hey I really don't care what their methodology is...it clearly is not working. Further, doing nothing in the face of year after year of serious catch/breading decline as well as other damaging issues and ignoring all while waiting to hit some "magic number" computed at a whim... is a form of malpractice, and then you blame it on the laws (that they help create!!) and how their hands are tied... is not a good excuse...

One thing for sure is they know how to play games with the system...look at fluke and the games they play to keep it open esp in NY...it becomes a political matter and there is posturing buy all sides with an interest in how much money they will loose...it is laughable. Shut it down if there is a problem. Period.

These are just a bunch of weak scientists playing in a sandbox. In my eyes they don't have much credibility and the fishery management people should all be jailed. I am not kidding, what they are doing to the fisheries in this country is criminal.


I bet if you reduced the countries fisheries staff to the salaries of 6 people with a goal to restore all fisheries in 10 years, and giving them the ultimate control, let them call all the shots with no public comment, and answer only to one top guy, the problem could be fixed and we would save a boatload of money in the process.


Look, I can fix this SB thing right now, it is not hard and does not take huge enforcement nor tons of cash.

1) Gamefish status
2) 1@ 36 for rec's (with move to compete C&R if needed)
3) hard-core restoration of all forge fish. (this means shutting down mid water trawlers and many commercial bait operations probably permanently)

---do this and the sea will be rich in SB in 10 years---

wish list:
4) shut down all commercial indiscriminate net-fishing fishing operations inside of 12 miles of the shore.
5) no commercial boat can discard ANYTHING. It all must come back and be processed.

5) no commercial boat can discard ANYTHING. It all must come back and be processed.[/QUOTE]


That is so obvious it's stupid.
If it can be used it should be used.
Should never be crab food.

Hope ?

Better start taking golf lessons from Back Beach.


For you MAKAI, I'll do a half hour lesson for a darter. pm me :uhuh:

For you MAKAI, I'll do a half hour lesson for a darter. pm me :uhuh:

When you see my swing, it'll ruin yours.

I'm told it's contagious.

A pro I know saw it and he's been drinking hard ever since.

When you see my swing, it'll ruin yours.

I'm told it's contagious.

A pro I know saw it and he's been drinking hard ever since.

Trust me my friend, when you teach golf at a public driving range, do free clinics and all the other bs ive done, there isnt much I havent seen. Im sure we can do something about it. And if I suck at teaching and you still suck at golf, no brainer, we'll go fishing. And the pro you saw was just a half step behind, the trick is to drink BEFORE the lesson.:rotf2: