Striped Bass Gamefish on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/32209893)

Great video... thanks for posting

Stripers Forever .... love it ...

It's the sad truth

Very nice. Kinda hits the nail right on the head.

Love the concept of stripers as a recreational fish; however, if the economic argument is to be a selling point, then it becomes necessary to somehow disarm the charter industry, which is presumed to generate local revenue, but we know stalks breeders for their clients.

:sleeps::sleeps::sleeps:

Is there one person in the entire world that makes their living commercial fishing striped bass?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Is there one person in the entire world that makes their living commercial fishing striped bass?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device


My commercial striped bass fishing is included in my yearly income. It helps the local economy,it buys fuel, oil, dockage and some eateries around town.

It is not the commercial end of the striped bass fishery that is detrimental to the fishery. The commercial fishery last only 17-25 days before the qouta is reached. recreational fishing goes for 8 months. If anything you the recreational fishermen do more harm to the fishery.

If we want stripers for ever maybe it is time to limit the number of recreational fishermen along the New England coast and up and down the Atlantic. A lottery for a recreational striped bass license like they do for moose. There are just to many recreational fishermen for the species to maybe keep it sustainable. Recently along the Jersey coast there were a couple of hundred recs on the waters edge of the beach standing shoulder to shoulder fishing a striper blitz, reminds me of the groups of fishermen that once were able to snag for salmon.

My commercial striped bass fishing is included in my yearly income. It helps the local economy,it buys fuel, oil, dockage and some eateries around town.

It is not the commercial end of the striped bass fishery that is detrimental to the fishery. The commercial fishery last only 17-25 days before the qouta is reached. recreational fishing goes for 8 months. If anything you the recreational fishermen do more harm to the fishery.

If we want stripers for ever maybe it is time to limit the number of recreational fishermen along the New England coast and up and down the Atlantic. A lottery for a recreational striped bass license like they do for moose. There are just to many recreational fishermen for the species to maybe keep it sustainable. Recently along the Jersey coast there were a couple of hundred recs on the waters edge of the beach standing shoulder to shoulder fishing a striper blitz, reminds me of the groups of fishermen that once were able to snag for salmon.

There is a very large portion of recreational fisherman that practice something called catch and release. What percent of the comm's do that? Poor argument.

Recently along the Jersey coast there were a couple of hundred recs on the waters edge of the beach standing shoulder to shoulder fishing a striper blitz, .

Wow, look at how good the fishing gets when a state prohibits commercial utilization. Think of all the local economic benefit those guys created.

Nice example.

Wow, look at how good the fishing gets when a state prohibits commercial utilization. Think of all the local economic benefit those guys created.

Nice example.

The fish on there migration south facing the on slaught of recreational fishermen, has nothing to do about commercial fishing.

My commercial striped bass fishing is included in my yearly income. It helps the local economy,it buys fuel, oil, dockage and some eateries around town.
That isn't a great argument for the justification of fishing stripers commercially. Rec's can say they take home stripers to supplement their food and ease grocery costs. Equally frivolous.

It is not the commercial end of the striped bass fishery that is detrimental to the fishery. The commercial fishery last only 17-25 days before the qouta is reached. recreational fishing goes for 8 months. If anything you the recreational fishermen do more harm to the fishery.
In those 17 to 25 days what is the quota? I assume it is significant. Fish traps can catch a lot more bass in a tide than me and a few of my buddies with some dead eels.

If we want stripers for ever maybe it is time to limit the number of recreational fishermen along the New England coast and up and down the Atlantic. A lottery for a recreational striped bass license like they do for moose.
I wouldn't be opposed to limiting the recreational take with tags. I am willing to bet a large portion of recreational anglers wouldn't even take their yearly limit.

There are just to many recreational fishermen for the species to maybe keep it sustainable. Recently along the Jersey coast there were a couple of hundred recs on the waters edge of the beach standing shoulder to shoulder fishing a striper blitz, reminds me of the groups of fishermen that once were able to snag for salmon.
I still say the impact isn't as significant. These blitz's you see that draw the huge crowds don't happen every day of the year. Of those hundreds of rec's did every guy take two fish? I highly doubt it.

Do you think recreational fishing killed the blue fin stocks too?

i believe the majority of rec fisherman favor vast reductions across the board and a high percentage practice responsible c&r........damned recs- they're ruining it for everyone :rotf2:. gamefish status now.

Striped Bass will never be a gamefish.



Man is too greedy.

It seems like a no brainer to make them a gamefish.

I would be interested to hear from other guys who fish them commercially and depend on that income as a means to justify the fishery. To pay for fuel, oil and dock fees is a horse shi t.

I have fished it comm. for years and would luv to see it a gamefish, no one keeps any. Just C & R, just plain fun. As long as it is legal to do so I will participate, although not as hard as I once did as I am losing steam, as the quota will be met weather I do or do not. Make it a gamefish and I will have no problem with that. In fact deep down inside I hope for that. Just my opinion. P.

I always figure this axiom eventually works it's way into common law.

" The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few "

It seems like a no brainer to make them a gamefish.

I would be interested to hear from other guys who fish them commercially and depend on that income as a means to justify the fishery. To pay for fuel, oil and dock fees is a horse shi t.

Not everybody is as rich as you. :)

The fish on there migration south facing the on slaught of recreational fishermen, has nothing to do about commercial fishing.

Sure it does.

200 guys in the picture each kill and keep 2 fish (not likely at all) and 400 fish are dead for the benefit of 200 guys.

20 commercial guys off Chatham catch and kill 20 bass each for profit (not at all UNlikely) and 400 bass are dead for the benefit of 20 guys.

So who is getting their fair share and which group does more to profit the community?

You do the math.

To me when a commercial fisherman say recreational fisherman are the problem and want all of the fish for themselves it is the most disingenuous of statement.

Recreational fisherman really means the general public. Anybody can go out and fish under the recreational regulation. Most commercial fisherman put on their recreational hat when the commercial season isn't open. The recreational fisherman/general public are being grant the right to catch a resource that belongs to the public.

Now in the case of the commercial fisherman they are being given a special privilege above what the general public gets. They can catch more of this public resource and also sell them for a profit.

So to me when the resource numbers decrease the first thing to do is eliminate any of the groups getting a special privilege. Then you go after the general public. I'm not saying the general public should have no limit. Just that when the general public limit drops to a number like two this is telling you there isn't enough of the resource to support commercial fishing.

You're forgetting that the commercial fishermen provides 100% of the population the opportunity to eat these fish. Recreational striper fisherman represent less than 1% of the population but kill the majority of the fish, mostly for fun. So supporting Stripers for Dinner instead of radical groups like PETA and Stripers Forever is far better for over 99% of the population.

[QUOTE=Team Rock On; Recreational striper fisherman represent less than 1% of the population but kill the majority of the fish, mostly for fun.

yep mostly for fun.....:confused:. comms fish fo' 99 % the people- i love it! lets kill them all fo' the people!

LOL That is so rich. Yup I'm greedy so I won't give up nuthin but your conservation minded so you need to give up all LOL.Greedy never change. Sportfishing is for a great big bunch of people commercial fishing for stripers is only for a small greedy few.Many of which make huge money already.As far as it's better for 99% to commercial fish well that's about as smart as saying we need to open up trout streams nationwide for commercial trout fishing instead of farming for them so that 99% of the population can have them too LOL.
The video shows a lot of well thought out points unlike all you hear from commercials. We want more and don't wanna give up nothin period. it's all everybody elses fault. MMMMMMM How many times have sportfishermen given up more n more -catch n release,bag limits,size limits,moratoriums an so on. when was the last time you heard commercial striper fishermen want to give up anything and take any responsability for the damage that they do.I have the ability like so many other hard core striper fishermen to kill a couple thousand stripers a yr but don't many of us keep a couple a yr so that there are fish for the future.Commercials just plain kill for a buck and throw dead culls back all the time. Conservation be damned.

It's probably because I'm too close to the source, but I have never seen anyone buy a piece of striped bass. Either at a restaurant or fish market. Cod, haddock,halibut,tuna, salmon seem to be the dominant fish choice. Besides at the prices I've seen it at the cape markets why would you ?

Not preaching, just curious where they all go ?

You're forgetting that the commercial fishermen provides 100% of the population the opportunity to eat these fish. Recreational striper fisherman represent less than 1% of the population but kill the majority of the fish, mostly for fun. So supporting Stripers for Dinner instead of radical groups like PETA and Stripers Forever is far better for over 99% of the population.

I meant to add this as one of my top 10 disingenuous statements. :love:

I would bet that recreational fisherman supply the non-fishing general public with as many stripers as does commercial fishing if not more. Plus in most cases it is free. Remember most recreational fisherman who keep fish supply their non-fishing family members and often friends and relatives with fish. I only kept one this year and I know that 8 non-fishing public got a free striper meal from it.

Support stripers for dinner and the results will be no stripers for anyone. Support SF and there is a good chance we'll end up with a healthy striper population.

As someone who has worked in the restaurant business for the past 16 years and worked for a wholesale seafood company as a production manager, the amount of waste that is generated is insane.

I don't even care for eating striped bass, it will never be my first choice even though I have a ton of killer recipes.

The place we buy our seafood from gets em in every year, all the fish they get are cows, I'm talking big fish, it's really sad for me as a fisherman to see all these great fish just laying on the floor while illegals chop it up.

I have the opportunity to sell all the striped bass I could catch, legally and illegally, restaurants back door stuff all the time and people always ask for me to bring it by and sell to them on the hush hush.

I could easily make myself some serious cash on the side illegally if I wanted to, probably enough in one season to pay off some serious debt.

The thought of extra cash in my pocket is a strong force, but I could and would never bring myself to sell and fish I have so much passion for.

The catch and release is what drives me to fish as much as I do.

There's no better feeling than letting a big girl swim out of your hands.

I know most people here feel the same way.

I hope they make some serious changes and my kids will get to experience this great sport fish we have now and are taking for granted
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Not giving an opinion but here are the actual numbers backed up by the best available science and actually being used to manage the fishery are as follows.

We all agree the science sucks but it is what it is and it is the SAME SCIENTIFIC METHODS USED DURING THE REBUILDING. All I am saying is that your positions should at least make some sense when compared to the numbers.

2010 Striped Bass Fishery
Commercial Discard Mortality 6%
Commercial Landings 27%
Recreational Discard Mortality 14%
Recreational Landings 53%


MA anglers catch between 3 & 6 million SB per year

MA anglers keep 300,000 SB per year

MA anglers release between 2.7 & 5.7 million fish per year

MA anglers dead discard is between 240,000 & 500,000 SB per year

Commercial discard mortality is 1/2 of recreational? OoooooooooKKKK.

As for the recreational catch numbers, we all know they are a gross over estimate. The ASMFC technical committee knows this as well. But the ASMFC itself (with NOAA's blessing, surprise, surprise) voted not to change how recreational catch is estimated......partly since there is no other proven methodology to estimate it (the one they use is not proven either), partly because true lower recreational catch numbers would not result in a higher F and force management changes, and partly because it suits their goal of justifying a commercial fishery. A lower recreational catch would allow a higher commercial take to achieve maximal sustainable yield.....and it is no coincidence that is exactly what some on the ASMFC tried to do recently.

Under other proposed more realistic models, the commercial percentage goes up to almost 60 % of total catch. Much of the remaining recreational catch is charter boat generated. The average schmuck recreational guy gets a tiny share.

We all know this, only some like to keep spouting phony figures to justify their continued shafting of recreational schmucks. Does ANYONE on this board think the total non-charter recreational catch comes anywhere close to what was killed off Chatham this year by the commercial fleet. If so, where and when were those fish caught? Again, where and when in MA did a recreational bite happen to come anywhere close to what was taken off Chatham during the commercial slaughter this summer?

Where is the Black market numbers in this? You know, the undersized and illegal bass that are cleaned and sold to restaurants who don't hold buying permits? Oh, that does not exist I guess. Lets not be naive, this really exists and is being ignored. Also, when I see draggers working the shoals off Muskeget channel in late August and September I guess they don't catch any Striped bass at all huh? They don't seem to report any, that much I know and boats all around seem to be catching them.A few years ago draggers from Montauk and Point Judith were pounding the waters off of squibnocket, close to the beach < one mile at times. A beach goer/fishermen saw them several days in a row. He called the EPO. He looked into it. They claimed they were squid fishing. He went out there with the help of the USCG on a helicopter and got the numbers off the boat(s). He tracked one down in Point Jude when they got back. Guess what he had on-board? Hint: It was not squid. The problem is the penalty is not severe enough to make people stop...chances of being caught are slim, while the payoff can be good. Just make it a game fish and take the $ off the fishes head and 98% of this will stop.

The rec kill #'s make some assumptions that every fisherman is keeping his limit. Do you know how many Striped Bass I kept this year????? ZERO, NONE, NADA...Please adjust your numbers accordingly. Oh and I put over 400 hours on my boat this season. Nearly all of that was spent fishing. So I put some serious money into the economy and took mostly memories out of it.

The Banner statement below has the necessary "science" and "management" needed to make SB a healthy, stable as well as an economically and socially beneficial activity for all.
Your welcome in advance.

I always figure this axiom eventually works it's way into common law.

" The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few "

Makai,

You are right. There are many more people who eat rockfish in restaurants and from fish houses without ever fishing for them than there are recreational fishermen. Instead of fighting over whether they should be a gamefish or not (after which NMFS will merely use other laws to curtail the recreational fun as governments often do) time and effort is better spent influencing the allocations and methods used to catch the fish. But, this is just my opinion and we all know what opinions are like...

Bill

By the way, we are still in to them here in the Chesapeake and I'm headed out now to catch a few...and I'll even release some of them!

Sure it does.

200 guys in the picture each kill and keep 2 fish (not likely at all) and 400 fish are dead for the benefit of 200 guys.

20 commercial guys off Chatham catch and kill 20 bass each for profit (not at all UNlikely) and 400 bass are dead for the benefit of 20 guys.

So who is getting their fair share and which group does more to profit the community?

You do the math.

If the 20 guys sell them to fish houses, who in turn sell them to the public and each makes a little money and pays taxes doesn't that really benefit more than the original 400? Maybe my economics class didn't really teach me correctly...

Just saying.

Not everybody is as rich as you. :)

I am willing to bet my next measly paycheck I make less than you.

Where is the Black market numbers in this? You know, the undersized and illegal bass that are cleaned and sold to restaurants who don't hold buying permits? Oh, that does not exist I guess. Lets not be naive, this really exists and is being ignored. Also, when I see draggers working the shoals off Muskeget channel in late August and September I guess they don't catch any Striped bass at all huh? They don't seem to report any, that much I know and boats all around seem to be catching them.A few years ago draggers from Montauk and Point Judith were pounding the waters off of squibnocket, close to the beach < one mile at times. A beach goer/fishermen saw them several days in a row. He called the EPO. He looked into it. They claimed they were squid fishing. He went out there with the help of the USCG on a helicopter and got the numbers off the boat(s). He tracked one down in Point Jude when they got back. Guess what he had on-board? Hint: It was not squid. The problem is the penalty is not severe enough to make people stop...chances of being caught are slim, while the payoff can be good. Just make it a game fish and take the $ off the fishes head and 98% of this will stop.
Your welcome in advance.

Lets not go overboard on this and add the draggers to this, they are illegally fishing for stripers any way. If you want to add them into the equasion lets add the recreational and illegals that take under size fish home. Maybe we need homeland security in on this.

Fly Rod what species are you going to target to pay for your gas oil and dock fees when you can't find a striper anymore? Do you not agree that the striper fishery isn't sustainable at the current rate that both the rec's and comm's are pressuring it at? It is a valuable fish to both of us it seems, wouldn't you want to do what you can today to save it for future generations?

The last time I drove down Old Commers rd. in Chatham during the commercial season there where as many out of state # plates as in state plates and they where parking for the (big kill) commercial bass season.
When I see $150,000 or more parked along the road it sounds like STORY TIME fishing.
New boat,new trailer,new boat.150,000---catch---maybe5,000 -10,000???
do the math

If the 20 guys sell them to fish houses, who in turn sell them to the public and each makes a little money and pays taxes doesn't that really benefit more than the original 400? Maybe my economics class didn't really teach me correctly...

Just saying.

You are right, it didn't teach you correctly. Just saying.

A resource's value to the economy is not measured by the economic activity it generates. Buying fish at a fish store does not generate net economic value, since that money would be spent on some alternate food if the fish was not available. The net economic benefit if the alternate food costs the same is zero (if the fish is more expensive, as is usually the case, then the net economic benefit is negative).

The value of a national resource is measured by the net surplus (producer surplus and consumer surplus) it produces. This gets complicated, but basically the less I spend to catch or buy fish (i.e., use the fish for my needs), the more I have to spend on other needs.

This is why the usual economic garbage people post BOTH for or against commercial fishing is meaningless. That stuff (ie how much is spent) is called input-output analysis. It is useful for predicting what group of people in a region will benefit from a regulation change, but it has nothing to do with national economic value.

Any economic analysis that optimizes value of a resource, will always include some commercial activity. So if we are stupid enough to measure striped bass in a dollar value, commercial fishing makes sense. But striped bass, for most of us, have a different non-monetary value.....call it happiness value. Any analysis that optimizes that for the greatest number of people will favor gamefish status for striped bass.

There are numerous saltwater fish that can be caught and sold commercially. For the recreational community to ask for a single species that is protected for their use simply reflects normal people trying to optimize the happiness in their lives. That pursuit of happiness is a "god given right" according to our law. It does not require subservience to "economic value". Maybe you missed that in school?

Fly Rod what species are you going to target to pay for your gas oil and dock fees when you can't find a striper anymore? Do you not agree that the striper fishery isn't sustainable at the current rate that both the rec's and comm's are pressuring it at? It is a valuable fish to both of us it seems, wouldn't you want to do what you can today to save it for future generations?

The fishery will out last me. There are plenty of stripers around. Your just not fishing where they are. Shore fishermen will not catch the fish that you would from a boat. On most any given day when I recreational fish I can catch 24-30 stripers in the three to four hours that I am out there, I get tired of reeling them in and most are under 28"and they all get thrown back, I do not eat striper and once in a while I will give one away, a keeper that is.

When I go commercially very, very few of the fish I catch are under 38", virtually no discard, maybe a half dozen during the commercial season may be under 34", it averages less then one fish per day.


How many do you throw back to get one keeper???

There is nothing more relaxing then to be on the water in the summer relaxing at a sport that one enjoys, hauling in a dozen or so fish worth three bucks a pound and making about seventy bucks per fish, then taking out the wife to have a nice steak dinner on the deck of a lounge and watch a boat or two go by. :)

I'm more worried about not fishing for cod commercially.

I'm more worried about not fishing for cod commercially.

Why? The same guys have been counting both populations.

The fishery will out last me. There are plenty of stripers around. Your just not fishing where they are. Shore fishermen will not catch the fish that you would from a boat. On most any given day when I recreational fish I can catch 24-30 stripers in the three to four hours that I am out there, I get tired of reeling them in and most are under 28"and they all get thrown back, I do not eat striper and once in a while I will give one away, a keeper that is.

When I go commercially very, very few of the fish I catch are under 38", virtually no discard, maybe a half dozen during the commercial season may be under 34", it averages less then one fish per day.


How many do you throw back to get one keeper???

There is nothing more relaxing then to be on the water in the summer relaxing at a sport that one enjoys, hauling in a dozen or so fish worth three bucks a pound and making about seventy bucks per fish, then taking out the wife to have a nice steak dinner on the deck of a lounge and watch a boat or two go by. :)

I'm more worried about not fishing for cod commercially.

That's the difference between you and I my friend. I see more value in a 23 pound striped bass than seventy bucks. Enjoy the steak dinners with your wife while you can.

[QUOTE=Mr. Sandman;905160]Where is the Black market numbers in this?

AH HA!!

now you hit the real issue. If the Striper became a game fish then there would be no Black Market. You can't sell them in the Black market if they don't sell them legally. No restaurant owner would buy a fish that cannot be sold anywhere. Problem solved.

Make it a damn gamefish and stop the nonsense of arguing whose to blame. It don't matter who's to blame. Just stop the killing, make it C&R and the problem is solved. And all the comms, who I have no problem with making money on fish, should then go and kill scup.

You are right, it didn't teach you correctly. Just saying.

A resource's value to the economy is not measured by the economic activity it generates. Buying fish at a fish store does not generate net economic value, since that money would be spent on some alternate food if the fish was not available. The net economic benefit if the alternate food costs the same is zero (if the fish is more expensive, as is usually the case, then the net economic benefit is negative).

The value of a national resource is measured by the net surplus (producer surplus and consumer surplus) it produces. This gets complicated, but basically the less I spend to catch or buy fish (i.e., use the fish for my needs), the more I have to spend on other needs.

This is why the usual economic garbage people post BOTH for or against commercial fishing is meaningless. That stuff (ie how much is spent) is called input-output analysis. It is useful for predicting what group of people in a region will benefit from a regulation change, but it has nothing to do with national economic value.

Any economic analysis that optimizes value of a resource, will always include some commercial activity. So if we are stupid enough to measure striped bass in a dollar value, commercial fishing makes sense. But striped bass, for most of us, have a different non-monetary value.....call it happiness value. Any analysis that optimizes that for the greatest number of people will favor gamefish status for striped bass.

There are numerous saltwater fish that can be caught and sold commercially. For the recreational community to ask for a single species that is protected for their use simply reflects normal people trying to optimize the happiness in their lives. That pursuit of happiness is a "god given right" according to our law. It does not require subservience to "economic value". Maybe you missed that in school?

Numby,

You are absolutely right. It is nice to discuss with someone who understands economics and how to properly perform an economic analysis rather than the self-serving seekers I typically talk to here on the Chesapeake (Where incidentally, striped bass can be caught commercially with very little effort of outlay--thus providing a significant economic return). However, "pursuit of happiness" is not the only reason to make a decision, just as economic considerations are not a sole reason. There has to be some balance. Unfortunately we live in a world where no one is willing to find balance. It is always easy to say that anyone can get a fishign rod and catch a striper if they want. However, that is not the case...unless our welfare program will now include paid bus trips and government issued fishing gear (now that's a program I'd like to run! "Sorry, Miss. You don't qualify for the 3 ounce darter but you can have a 1 ounce pencil"). Thus the answer lies somewhere in between. Not with gamefish status but with better allocation of the resources using sound science and proper public policy decisions...neither of which are likely to be available any time soon...but one can hope.

LOL And just how few commercial tickets are there in Mass. So roughly less than 1 % of the fishermen have a release lortality that is half what how many thousand sportfishermen have.Pat put the numbers in perspective. On the west coast less than 2% of the fishermen keep 98% of the Salmon landed.The other 98% are only allowed to keep 2%.When so few do so much damage compared to the whole it's time for it to stop.Misrepresenting the facts just don't make it anymore.We in Maine have lost a lot of our fishing due to this backwards thinking as they don't make it through the gauntlet between here an the spawning grounds.There are fewer commercial tickets than there are people that fish the Vineyard Derby and the great majority of them aren't even used so the real damage is being done by an even smaller number.Funny but a handfull killing 6% is pretty sad in my book.

Not giving an opinion but here are the actual numbers backed up by the best available science and actually being used to manage the fishery are as follows.

We all agree the science sucks but it is what it is and it is the SAME SCIENTIFIC METHODS USED DURING THE REBUILDING. All I am saying is that your positions should at least make some sense when compared to the numbers.

2010 Striped Bass Fishery
Commercial Discard Mortality 6%
Commercial Landings 27%
Recreational Discard Mortality 14%
Recreational Landings 53%


MA anglers catch between 3 & 6 million SB per year

MA anglers keep 300,000 SB per year

MA anglers release between 2.7 & 5.7 million fish per year

MA anglers dead discard is between 240,000 & 500,000 SB per year

Those numbers are even more skewed, in the other direction when it comes to cod. So now with the cod crisis would you guys argue that cod should be a commercial species only?

Personally I don't think we will every see game fish status, there is just to much money involved.
Plus how many out there are going to ask for increased limits because there will be no commercial pressure?


1@36in across the board...

You're forgetting that the commercial fishermen provides 100% of the population the opportunity to eat these fish. Recreational striper fisherman represent less than 1% of the population but kill the majority of the fish, mostly for fun. So supporting Stripers for Dinner instead of radical groups like PETA and Stripers Forever is far better for over 99% of the population.

I hear this all the time from the commercial fisherman. Providing fish to 99% of the population. this sounds like a public service but in fact , in return for so much money per pound , commercial fisherman, ditributors and even the markets form a supply chain. Its fish for money. Now do you really think someone who goes to the market and buys the fish for $10 a pound is more "entitled" to the fish than a guy who gets up at 4am and goes down and catches the fish?

To "supply the masses" of consumers , commercial fishing should be commecial fish farming. Just like chicken and beef , the fish should be farmed. To think that a commercial guy is entitled to a bigger share of the pie because he sells his fish and it gets distributed is a good way of taking away the focus that an individual commercial fisherman gets more than his share (his share not the consumer market share) of the fish.

Anyway , I am not anti com fishing but lets not play games that they are doing a public service providing fish to the population. Its a business and they take fish and sell it for money.

I hear this all the time from the commercial fisherman. Providing fish to 99% of the population. this sounds like a public service but in fact , in return for so much money per pound , commercial fisherman, ditributors and even the markets form a supply chain. Its fish for money. Now do you really think someone who goes to the market and buys the fish for $10 a pound is more "entitled" to the fish than a guy who gets up at 4am and goes down and catches the fish?

To "supply the masses" of consumers , commercial fishing should be commecial fish farming. Just like chicken and beef , the fish should be farmed. To think that a commercial guy is entitled to a bigger share of the pie because he sells his fish and it gets distributed is a good way of taking away the focus that an individual commercial fisherman gets more than his share (his share not the consumer market share) of the fish.

Anyway , I am not anti com fishing but lets not play games that they are doing a public service providing fish to the population. Its a business and they take fish and sell it for money.

The flaw in the logic in the quoted post is that the percentage of the population that eats commercially-caught striped bass is a lot closer to 1% of the population than 100%.

I hear this all the time from the commercial fisherman. Providing fish to 99% of the population. this sounds like a public service but in fact , in return for so much money per pound , commercial fisherman, ditributors and even the markets form a supply chain. Its fish for money. Now do you really think someone who goes to the market and buys the fish for $10 a pound is more "entitled" to the fish than a guy who gets up at 4am and goes down and catches the fish?

To "supply the masses" of consumers , commercial fishing should be commecial fish farming. Just like chicken and beef , the fish should be farmed. To think that a commercial guy is entitled to a bigger share of the pie because he sells his fish and it gets distributed is a good way of taking away the focus that an individual commercial fisherman gets more than his share (his share not the consumer market share) of the fish.

Anyway , I am not anti com fishing but lets not play games that they are doing a public service providing fish to the population. Its a business and they take fish and sell it for money.

Do you labor for nothing? Do you give your stuff away? Why should fishermen who commercially fish do so for nothing? And remember the millions of dollars spent every year on striped bass management are supplied by the general public. How long do you think that will continue (especially in this economy) if the general public has no access to the fish?

Do you labor for nothing? Do you give your stuff away? Why should fishermen who commercially fish do so for nothing? And remember the millions of dollars spent every year on striped bass management are supplied by the general public. How long do you think that will continue (especially in this economy) if the general public has no access to the fish?
I think his point was that some people boast about the "public service" the commercial sector does by providing table fare to those that enjoy striped bass but do not fish, while minimizing how much they mention that they get paid for it.

I don't think any reasonable person would expect commercial fishermen to work for nothing. At the same time, they're doing no more of a public service than the gas station attendant who puts gas in your tank for money or the dentist who cleans your teeth for in exchange for a check.

LOL Mike you an many others seem to forget all the taxes paid on fishing tackle-Wallop Buereau tax -paid before it's sold plus all the usage fees and sales tax. we pay for it not the genera; public stop mis representing the facts to try to make your point seem more valid.We pay our own way an the public gets huge benefits in access point paid for by all the fees we pay.Commercial fishing is so over subsidised now that it takes 5 yrs of income to repay one years subsidy.All you need to do is go into the government budget and the figures tell the story.

LOL Mike you an many others seem to forget all the taxes paid on fishing tackle-Wallop Buereau tax -paid before it's sold plus all the usage fees and sales tax. we pay for it not the genera; public stop mis representing the facts to try to make your point seem more valid.We pay our own way an the public gets huge benefits in access point paid for by all the fees we pay.Commercial fishing is so over subsidised now that it takes 5 yrs of income to repay one years subsidy.All you need to do is go into the government budget and the figures tell the story.

Nice try nut all of those Wallop Breaux taxes get plowed back into recreational fishing, the "public" never see a dime of it. Which do you think raises more sales tax sale of recreational fishing gear or the sale of those tons of fish in the fish markets?

Nice try nut all of those Wallop Breaux taxes get plowed back into recreational fishing, the "public" never see a dime of it. Which do you think raises more sales tax sale of recreational fishing gear or the sale of those tons of fish in the fish markets?

Probably depends if you take out Lobster, Scallops, Surf Clams etc.. and just left finfish...

Many states don't impose sales tax on food purchases.

Do like they do for RSA's and make all users buy their fish. You will create one market for striped bass. Whether you are rec, commercial or a charter boat, you have to buy your fish, get your tags (like many have recommended) and you decide what you keep for the year. Every kept fish has to have a tag. It works pretty well on the commercial side in ny. So the market will determine this argument. If the bass are going for $20 a fish, and a commercial guy can get $50 a fish, he will buy more tags. if the rec guys drive the price of a tag to $100, well the commercial or charter will probably buy less. The # of tags is the tac for the yr, divided by average weight of the fish. So on the mass commercial side we get a million pounds, avg sale weight, call it 20 pounds= 50,000 tags. Add that to the what the rec side gets (estimated) and call it 200,000 tags. Create some limitations so no one can corner the market, and the govt has now maximized the value of the resource. All the users will have to adapt. I know no one like this, but it is the fair, american way to do it.

The # of tags is the tac for the yr, divided by average weight of the fish. So on the mass commercial side we get a million pounds, avg sale weight, call it 20 pounds= 50,000 tags. Add that to the what the rec side gets (estimated) and call it 200,000 tags. Create some limitations so no one can corner the market, and the govt has now maximized the value of the resource. All the users will have to adapt. I know no one like this, but it is the fair, american way to do it.
Cue anyone with deep enough pockets registering 100 LLC's and purchasing the maximum number of tags they can under each.

I support a tagging program for recreation fishing and *required* weekly reporting by charter boats. The commercial guys already have to report their catch. People will definitely under-report, just like people sell to the back door of a restaurant, but it will limit the recs who take their limit every chance they can and it will provide more accurate estimates on the number of bass killed.

Nice try Mike. what the recs spend each yr is probably 3 times what the commercial industry even comes close to especially with all the government subsidies they get.Last figures were somewheres around over a few billion just on the east coast.The only time commercial guys rent a motel room is to follow a school of fish to wipe out.MMMMM Like Chatham this yr.As far as where the money goes it's nice to see all those peirs built that are used by commercials that are paid for out of that money.

I support a tagging program for recreation fishing and *required* weekly reporting by charter boats. The commercial guys already have to report their catch. People will definitely under-report, just like people sell to the back door of a restaurant, but it will limit the recs who take their limit every chance they can and it will provide more accurate estimates on the number of bass killed.

All charter boats that hold a federal license are already required to report on each trip. I'd guesstimate that close to 100% of charter boats hold a federal license.

.As far as where the money goes it's nice to see all those peirs built that are used by commercials that are paid for out of that money.

The Wallop-Breaux funds can ONLY be used for recreational fishing purposes.

All charter boats that hold a federal license are already required to report on each trip. I'd guesstimate that close to 100% of charter boats hold a federal license.
Thank you for the info. I was unaware. This validates putting them into a completely separate class even more because they are treated like completely separate entities in just about every aspect of fishing.

Since charters are required to report, does anyone have a source for the number of fish landed by charters last year?

I once agreed with Stipers Forever. Admittedly I did not really understand the fishery at the time.

The thing about the commercial fishery on Stripers, at least in MA, is it's very limited, with a hard well-regulated quota, and is completely open to the public (even out of state residents).

So for starters it's not a privileged few taking more than their fair share, it's open to anyone who's interested enough to buy permits. If you are not interested in joining the ranks, then don't, but it's completely open to the public (and I applaud MA for this).

It's also a drop in the bucket compared the recreational fishery (especially when you start considering release mortality) and is a unique opportunity for a small boat or shore fisherman to make a few bucks with rod in hand. It'd be nice if there were more of such opportunities that didn't require a big boat budget & commitment.

I'm not saying it's wrong, but the worst thing for the Striper is the serial catch-and-release fisherman. For 4 months+ out of the year a guy who's good with artificials or flys can go catch 30 fish a trip. That class of fisherman alone does far more damage than the 2 week commercial season, and there's no good way to curb their mortality.. And of course those same C&R fisherman all think they are taking the high ground, and are of the sort to support things like Stripers Forever..

Some people are really rubbed the wrong way by part time commercial fishing, I don't get it. Anyway, provided the health of the Striper remains intact, and it's done sustainably as it has, I see no issue with a well regulated commercial Striper fishery, especially when it remains small compared to the recreational fishery. If we hit a point when it needs to go back to 1 fish @ 36 inches for sustainability, then it will probably make sense to suspend the commercial season. Until then I'm all for it.

Jon

I think the C+R mortality rate is way over stated by the Com side. We fish jigs , almost always get a mouth hook , release the fish immediately and seldom actually pick up big ones to dangle from their lips. Done right , catch and release can have a very low mortality rate. Lastly , if by chance a C+R guy does get a fish that's likely mortally wounded , that fish becomes one of the two or three they keep every year.

The huge majority of receational fisherman are lucky to catch a striper or two all year. I have been doing it for a very long time and I know many guys who catch nothing or maybe a fish or two in the fall. If you subtract the Recs who can not and do not catch fish , you probably are dealing with less than half of the estimated number of recreational striper fisherman.

I think the C+R mortality rate is way over stated by the Com side. We fish jigs , almost always get a mouth hook , release the fish immediately and seldom actually pick up big ones to dangle from their lips. Done right , catch and release can have a very low mortality rate. Lastly , if by chance a C+R guy does get a fish that's likely mortally wounded , that fish becomes one of the two or three they keep every year.

The huge majority of receational fisherman are lucky to catch a striper or two all year. I have been doing it for a very long time and I know many guys who catch nothing or maybe a fish or two in the fall. If you subtract the Recs who can not and do not catch fish , you probably are dealing with less than half of the estimated number of recreational striper fisherman.

Well, there's definitely a learning curve on stripers but that's pretty bad if you are only catching a fish or two. Even the googans throwing chunks and clams into the surf on 2 ounce bank sinkers, that eventually just wash up on the beach, tend to catch a few fish a day (albeit small fish).

I've done lots of striper fishing with leadhead bucktail jigs and various rubbers from shore. I really enjoy it in the spring; it's far from harmless though. My experience is 20% of the fish or so get hooked deep in the throat. How many of them die is anyone's guess.

Average tide early season like that is probably only a couple fish, but when it's on you can easily catch 20. Guys willing to wade into the water (not me, if I'm going in it's by boat) do alot better. Some seem to be there every tide, catching schoolie after schoolie on flys and various artificial's.

A different catch and release crowd shows up once the season gets going, a fleet flyroddin shallow water in the early AM - same deal, schoolie after schoolie.. They actually seem to be targeting the small fish - and that goes on for months.

All that C&R does produce mortality, and it's on a huge scale for a long season. I firmly believe that the numbers showing commercial striper fishing is a drop in the bucket are correct.

Jon

Some people are really rubbed the wrong way by part time commercial fishing, I don't get it. Anyway, provided the health of the Striper remains intact, and it's done sustainably as it has, I see no issue with a well regulated commercial Striper fishery, especially when it remains small compared to the recreational fishery. If we hit a point when it needs to go back to 1 fish @ 36 inches for sustainability, then it will probably make sense to suspend the commercial season. Until then I'm all for it.

Jon
You're joking right?

If I'm a striper, I like my chances one helluva lot better getting caught by some dude with a fly rod than by any other method out there.

You're joking right?

What do you mean by that? From what I'm reading, and what I'm seeing, things are fine. The only thing I've heard (and I've yet to see it really backed up) is there may be a decline, possibly just due to normal cycles, of schoolie sized fish. The current year classes coming down south are massive, in a few years we'll be inundated with small fish again.

For sure there are plenty of large fish around, they just may not be where you are expecting them. Take a cruise through Stellwagen up in a tower during the summer. Huge schools of large striped bass just outside of state waters, some years for whatever reason it happens. When tuna fishing at times they've been practically as bad as dogfish.

My night bite sucked last season; lots of small fish 25 - 30 inches, the bruisers just didn't want to gather for our boats, and we spent a lot time running away from little fish and searching, although some guys were doing well. During the day though the bite in rips of the Merrimack was outstanding with plenty of large fish available. So, they were around, just not where we always wanted them to be. Bite in the rips was probably was similar at night, but I try and avoid fishing rips at night. Commercial season was more of an open water bite up my end. Anyway, plenty of fish, just some of the patterns changed, and it makes people think there's a problem.

Jon

If I'm a striper, I like my chances one helluva lot better getting caught by some dude with a fly rod than by any other method out there.

So you'd rather inhale a small "J" hook, possibly deep depending on nothing more than luck, and then are played out until exhaustion on light tackle?

I think I'd rather be one of those bass that hits a squid bar with a 14/0 Jobu, planed out on a 130, and released in 45 seconds ;)..

Back to the point, when you are talking commercial versus recreational the difference is small numbers of fish targeted and harvested over a short season versus large numbers of fish caught and injured over an entire season.

Commercial fishing is over and done with in 2-3 weeks; legal sized fish are targeted, harvested, the quota is filled, and it's over. It might appear wrong to see tote after tote of dead stripers heading to market, but that's just a knee-jerk reaction.

Even if you completely discount release mortality (which on the recreational side more fish actually die post-release than are harvested while on the commercial side it's only 10%), the harvest on the rec side is something like 7X the commercial fishery. If you count release mortality it's >15X the commercial fishery.

Why focus your attention on the something that accounts for < 10% of the total Striper mortality? I'm not saying it needs to be fixed, but the real issue in the northeast Striper fishery (if there was one) would be mortality generated by Catch and Release fishing. It accounts for more dead Stripers than the commercial and recreational harvest combined.

Jon

So your saying that your illegally fishing for stripers in the protected waters of the EEZ.Those fish have been there for yrs and it's one of the schools that we're trying to protect. So they don't get wiped out like the other schools have. When hard cores up n down the coast aren't seeing fish there's a problem. just cause your sittin on a protected school in waters that are closed to striper fishing doesn't mean the fishery is in good shape.Your sounding like one of those charter guys in jearsy an Virginia that head out to closed waters an hammer big wintering stripers then as soon as they see enforsement people coming cut the bellys open and throw the fish over board.An thats ok as long as they don't get caught ask them they'll tell you that. about like you fishing for stripers in the EEZ.

Oh an by the way you seem to overlook the real numbers when it comes to parety. commercial striper fishermen aren't even a fraction of a percent of those fishing for stripers. so the true damge by such a small group is actually pretty Da- large.

Learn to read man. If I'm out on the bank they are a nuisance fish (ie I equated them to dogfish). We don't target them, we actually end up running because they'll endlessly hammer all our live baits.

The fact that Stellwagen is protected has nothing to do with the reason there are numbers of fish there. These things have tails and they migrate, and sometimes it's not into your historical honey hole. for whatever reason (wish I knew) sometimes more seem to decide to spend the season offshore rather than head into the harbors, rivers, and bays..

Again, the commercial fishery is open to anyone who wants in. Some years it's more than others. If you want in, join the party, else don't hate just 'cause you can't catch a Striper > 34 inches.

Jon

Sounds like another boat fisherman that's never walked the surf. As far as size goes well I'll match my 50's to yours anyday LOL.An I'm not talkin inches either LOL. Most of them came from place no boat can go.

Sounds like another boat fisherman that's never walked the surf. As far as size goes well I'll match my 50's to yours anyday LOL.An I'm not talkin inches either LOL. Most of them came from place no boat can go.

Inches and lbs practically the same thing with fish that size.. Lots of > 40 lb fish, never a 50.

Yep boat fisherman for sure, only learned how to catch the early season schoolies that way (I think it's easier from the beach than from a boat).

You can cover alot more ground in a boat though, like I said, the fish seem to be around just not always where we want them to be.

Jon

"Only guys that fish from shore should be able to fish." "Only fly fisherman should be able to keep stripers." "The big bag commercial guys are greedy and doing all the damage."

Sounds like Occupy S-B here...

You can tell it is off season. Think I'll go out and catch another one or two today...6 more days to our season and big fish are here.

Todays word of the day kids, is "Braggadocio".

Can anyone use it in a sentence ? I need to go stick a pencil in my eye. :rollem:

LOL

:deadhorse:

Enough. This is like arguing with a bunch of wasted sped students.

I fish jigs and plastic almost exclusively. If I deep hooked 20% of what I hooked, I'd have to re-think my approach. I'd say that 97% to 99% of the fish I land are jaw hooked. And when they inhale it, they're hooked in the roof of the mouth, in the hard cartilege, not in the gills. If you're deep hooking 20% of what you land on jigs, with all due respect, you're doing something wrong. Maybe you're fishing mono and don't feel them until they have it swallowed?

If by "rubber" you mean those small Storm or Tsunami swim shads, yeah, fish inhale them. If you care about what you release, don't use them or at least crush the barb. Or use the ones that are 6" to 9" and target bigger fish.

those of you who think that fly fishing for stripers is the way to go, "Are So Wrong."

Fly fishing puts more stress on a fish then any other way of recreational fishing. They stress that fish out by the time it is landed. Most take three times as long to bring a fish to shore.

riff_raff.... You make a lot of sense, so most will not agree with you.
Out beyond the three mile limit stripers are as much a nuisance as dogfish. Shore fishermen will always complain that they do not catch enough big fish. They never will.

I fish jigs and plastic almost exclusively. If I deep hooked 20% of what I hooked, I'd have to re-think my approach. I'd say that 97% to 99% of the fish I land are jaw hooked.



I use an off set hook and my percentage of lip hooked fish is like yours.

Sounds like another boat fisherman that's never walked the surf.

I walked the rocky shore many times, maybe more then you. you can't beat the boat fishing. :)

Well I doubt it but thats ok.LOL I've done the boat thing too. Nicer out on the rocks in the middle of the night. No crowds some nice fish at times and its peacefull.But when you let that sweet fish swim away and she stays close by well it's something you never see on a boat.

Where is all this hostility coming from???

It's not even Jan and we are having Flame Wars. I LOVE IT.:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:

OK, I will grant you that there is one large body of bass, dead in the center of their mid-season migratory range. This is your proof that the coastwide fishery is in great shape. Even back in the 80s, there were 6 million bass, and they were very likely concentrated in CC Bay all summer long.

You never judge the health of any fish stocks by how plentiful they are in the midpoint of their migratory range in summer, or at the southern end of it in the pre-spawn winter. You judge it by how many resident fish there are, in mid-season, on the ends of their range. Maine to Cape May.

And those of us who have been around a long time--guys like me, stripermaniac, piemma, DZ and others---heard your fathers and uncles singing that "there are plenty of bass around, they're not in trouble" song back in the late 70s and through the moratorium years.

But I'm not going to debate the point with people who view a microcosm of the fishery and judge it healthy. Even if they don't have an agenda. I don't have one. I see "gamefish" as nothing more than a feel-good thing that will not significantly reduce mortality. Recs can be just as short-sighted as anyone.

I fish jigs and plastic almost exclusively. If I deep hooked 20% of what I hooked, I'd have to re-think my approach. I'd say that 97% to 99% of the fish I land are jaw hooked. And when they inhale it, they're hooked in the roof of the mouth, in the hard cartilege, not in the gills. If you're deep hooking 20% of what you land on jigs, with all due respect, you're doing something wrong. Maybe you're fishing mono and don't feel them until they have it swallowed?

If by "rubber" you mean those small Storm or Tsunami swim shads, yeah, fish inhale them. If you care about what you release, don't use them or at least crush the barb. Or use the ones that are 6" to 9" and target bigger fish.

Well, you said it well Mike. One of the keys to reducing C&R mortality is crushing the barbs. Even if the fish is hooked in the roof of it's mouth you can reach in and take out a Storm or Tsunami very quickly.

It always amazes me to see guys fishing with 3 treble hooks on a pencil popper and not crushing the barbs. Even if you are an absolute expert at C&R, 3 trebles do a ton of damage. 1 treble in the middle and a Siwash on the tail with all the barbs crushed and at least the fish has a chance of surviving.

all my bards on lures are crinched. Why do people have to use a gaff on stripers or bluefish? It is beyond me.

Well, you said it well Mike. One of the keys to reducing C&R mortality is crushing the barbs. Even if the fish is hooked in the roof of it's mouth you can reach in and take out a Storm or Tsunami very quickly.

It always amazes me to see guys fishing with 3 treble hooks on a pencil popper and not crushing the barbs. Even if you are an absolute expert at C&R, 3 trebles do a ton of damage. 1 treble in the middle and a Siwash on the tail with all the barbs crushed and at least the fish has a chance of surviving.

I think that a fish could even survive being hooked in the gills if there's just one small barbless hook involved. The real damage to the gills gets done when the barb tears them when you remove the hook. The small puncture that a barbless hook makes might not prove fatal.

One of my friends from NJ has this to say about 3 hooked lures--the belly hook is for bass, the tail hook is for blues, and the middle one is for fingers.

all my bards on lures are crinched. Why do people have to use a gaff on stripers or bluefish? It is beyond me.

I've never gaffed a bass. Some people are afraid to put their hands anywhere near a blue's mouth. I used to be one of them, but you learn over time.

About the only place I see gaffs used anymore in on the Breachways an boats. In Maine you can't even have them on the boat striperfishing as they're illegal. most breachway gaffs are a long pole with a 10/0 or bigger on it with no barb for lip gaffing the fish so you don't get washed off the rocks into the opening.I haven't used a gaff for over 30 yrs even in the
breachways. Ron

Only time I ever use a gaff is tuna. Bass or blue you really got to be sh#%ting me.
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I love lip gaffs. I hate nets. Haven't gotten into the boga thing.
If you ever find a Pompanette "Spin Gaff" buy it. I'll trade you something good for it.

I just started a new group called Stripers For-No-One

It's like a AA 12 step program because in a few years we are all going to need it, there will be no fish left to catch

So we can go to meetings sit around and tell fish stories

I just started a new group called Stripers For-No-One

It's like a AA 12 step program because in a few years we are all going to need it, there will be no fish left to catch

So we can go to meetings sit around and tell fish stories

I have told this story before that during the moratorium, I caught 5 schoolies one morning at Deep Hole. I went and told the owner of Top of the Dock Bait and Tackle (since closed) that I had caught 5 Stripers. He called me a liar in front of the whole store full of Narr "sharpies".

He said everyone knows there are no Bass left.


Old timers like myself Mike P, DZ, Makai, even some young guys like Nebe and RI Rockhound have been saying it for years now. The Striper population is in trouble. YOY doesn't till the whole story.

All fisherman are liars Paul

I love lip gaffs. I hate nets. Haven't gotten into the boga thing.
If you ever find a Pompanette "Spin Gaff" buy it. I'll trade you something good for it.

For you George, I'll try and find one. After all your fingers are more important than mine. Besides I see something greenish may be coming my way. <°)))))>{
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All fisherman are liars Paul

Except you and me Bob:rotf2:

You wanna use something that works great try the Gripper. It's made of plastic and it floats. Rugged as all getout. Only cosy about 14 bucks. I got turned onto it by Porky Francis on the Vineyard.It even locks. Looked hedgy to me at ist till I tried it.My boga's all hang on the wall now along with the old gaffs.Couple extra pounds I don't drag out on the rocks anymore.