[quote=JohnnyD;683387]Between the two of them, the prisoners were waterboarded 266 times. Can you somehow explain to me what they could get out of the 266th waterboarding that they couldn't get from the 200th?

Cleaner forehead!


It begged to be said, couldn't resist.

you torture people everyday....:wavey:

I guess, if you consider thoughtful opinions based on facts, as opposed to copy/pastes of some Conservatives "commentary" that many take as fact.

:whackin:

Spence, you made some good points in your reply.
We could go round and round on this forever. :deadhorse:

While i didn't agree with Bush on A LOT of his policies, even hindsight on the terrorist attacks forgets
we were flying by the seat of our pants in unknown threats.
Mistakes were made for sure, but we were kept safe for his entire term.

For me and my family living 16 miles from ground zero, my son in law, a pilot flying a 767 that morning non stop to LA from Kennedy leaving at 8 am, not knowing his plane was safe until 11:30, loosing 2 young friends of ours in the towers and knowing what their families still go through, and knowing we are in close proximity to other possible targets,
I for one am very greatful for his keeping us safe.

It's easy to Monday morning 1/4 back, but you have to give him credit, if for nothing else, his policy worked in keeping us safe.
Glad I didn't have to make any of those decisions.

Given that many of our torture techn. were copied from China, perhaps we need to update them. Maybe (like we did w/German rocket scientists after WWII), we can find some taliban who want to cooperate or that we got to "cooperate" and let them run wild. Give them a little piano wire and some steel pipe and they should be all set. These are different times, we have to forget out morals and values b/c our enemy has none of those.

You have spouted the "fact" that no information was aquired from CIA tactics. How about some info to back up the claim. No copy/pastes please.

I have already addressed this at least a half dozen times.

There's a difference between citing a source based on facts and just copy and pasting a commentary and inferring an opinion is fact.:p


As an aside, buckman did you see in the Mansfield News how many teachers were pink slipped this past Friday?

Right after 9/11 I'd agree. And at that time I thought the Administration acted with a pretty cool head. It was after we had a chance to think about our actions that things really went awry. That worries me...
Did he?

Firstly, I've never heard anything that indicates we've stopped any credible terrorist attacks in the US since 9/11. Most of the successes touted by Bush have been a bunch of half-wits tricked into guilt by the FBI.

After 9/11, there have been many serious terrorist attacks outside of the US on our allies, London, Madrid etc...

And perhaps most importantly. Since 9/11 we've lost 4273 American service members in Iraq, another 1000 or so contractors and what will be over a trillion in spending. All for what as a result? To overthrow a dictator who wasn't involved in 9/11 and posed little threat to the USA? To free a country that's probably going to be closer to Iran than us when it's all said and done?

It doesn't sound like we've kept Americans all that safe.

I don't think any of this has been easy, and I'm not one who believes that Bush or Cheney are evil. I do think they did what they thought was good for the American people.

That being said, I think at times they've (or more importanly those around around them) have conflated US interests with their own interests.

I've said often and I'll say again. Stay a true course and people will forgive your mistakes. But if you're often straying then things are open for scruitny. It seems like Bush strayed and often...

-spence

No sense in speculating on that, none of us will ever know for sure,
unless top secret documents are released at some time, if ever.

We weren't attacked on our own soil after 9/11 and that is ALL we know for sure.

I hope that continues under Obama's watch.

My hope is that our interests are not attacked, which might be very difficult to stop.

As bad as 9/11 was, a nuke or like minded attack in the Middle East could prove to be far, far worse.

-spence

We will know about what plans may or may not have been foiled if someone gets charged with a crime in relation to the waterboarding uproar. Any defendent will have access through evidence disclosure. We all know secrets wont be divulged, so no one in the end will be charged. So in essense all Obama is doing is using the torture for his own political gain, which is cheap. At least Bush was trying to elicit plans for other 9-11's before they happened. And I'm not saying torture is the way to go, at least all the time. But what is worse, making solid your political career, or trying to save us more torment.

You are right Swimmer, if Leahy and Congers have their way and Obama goes along,
all that top secret info will be exposed.

Very dangerous precedent will be set if they go ahead with this, as every
administration's policies in the future will be subject to be scrutinized after
their terms, when policies are changed.

Talk about dividing the country.

As long as no one from my family was in the Middle EAst and there were no significant American casualties I can give an F less if there is attack there. How an attack on foreign soil can be worse than one of US soil is beyond comprehension to me.

First off it would probably shut off 1/3 of the oil flowing to global markets throwing our economy off the edge. Then the energy wars begin...

-spence

still better than having american's dying in their offices and work places. Better than kids waiting to be picked up from school and their parents never show.

I dont want to see anyone in any country die, but my preference will always be that its them, and not us.

"What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight... is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect. While we are warriors, we are also all human beings."

-General David Petraeus

If the Middle East erupts into fire we're going to be sending a lot of our kids and parents to die outside of this country.

Hell, we've already lost 4200+ in Iraq not counting civilian contractors and another 600+ in Afghanistan. This isn't an argument that we should or should not fight, but don't these deaths and their families count?

-spence

They sure do. They are the best and bravest this country has to offer.

However, I'm not sure we have a choice but to bring the fight to them. We never fight battles on our own soil and I would just assume we keep it that way.

We've been fortunate in that we have ideal geographic location, aside from very long borders.

To be honest I think we've grown so accustomed to the fight being "over there" that it's given (North) Americans a very different perspective on war than most every other country.

The "big picture" trap here, that many US Presidents have fallen into, and that our Founding Fathers warned of, is the continued extension of US force around the world.

The fall of the British Empire is a good lesson in that we can't just assume we can fight all our battles on TV. Perhaps we need to be more selective as to where and when we apply power.

-spence

Our next war will be in Pakastan. The Taliban are moving towards a takeover of the Northwest areas. The Govornment will fall and they will move into the leadership vacuum. Then they will control the nukes. Scary thought, but inevitable without the US stepping in. No diplomacy will work here.

Pakistan has a very large military controlled by secular leadership. The chance that nukes would fall into the hands of the Taliban is still very remote. I'd be more concerned with loose Russian nukes at this point.

Remember as well that Pakistan is a pretty big country, and it's only the northwestern corner which has radicalized. Clinton has been pretty vocal of late that the policy to allow Sharia Law was a mistake and the Pakistani Government must do more to contain religious extremists.

I think that before the US has a large military event in Pakistan we'd see India making a play. Right now they're both US allies and in the near term India has a lot more to loose.

All that being said, the area does have the potential for explosion, as does the Middle East.

-spence

"Waterboarding stopped a West Coast 911."

This seems to be 'slightly' inaccurate.

The 9/11-sized event was prevented in February 2002. However, the terrorist that Cheney/Rove claim yielded information on the event was apprehended in March 2003.

I must ask, why are we suppose to believe a word anyone from the previous administration says? They cannot even get the dates of their lies in line.

2 separate west coast instances that were stopped. you are confusing the time of one with the other.

Care to cite any references to back up your assertion?

And I think one must be careful with the assertion that an attack was "stopped". I'd wager that the number of terror attacks that actually become real threats (i.e. have proper funding, resources timing etc...) is very small.

Granted, any disruption is a good thing, but if we get word that two guys in Singapore are talking about attacking Americans and break it up that doesn't necessarily mean that an attack has been "stopped" as it may have never had a likely chance of becoming real in the first place.

I'd also note that we probably do disrupt a lot of early planning due to regular anti-terror activities that target funding, communication etc...some of this is credible and I'd think a lot of it is just noise. This must present a huge challenge for the CIA/FBI/NSA trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

All that being said, I still haven't heard much on credible attacks that have been thwarted, and certainly nothing that you could say wouldn't have happened without torture, which is really the point.

-spence

Yep, and while we have our front lines and thousands of troops in AFG, our only real supply line goes through Pakistan / Khyber Pass...


Hey sizzlecheeks:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archiv...vance_east.php

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6164687.ece

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_pakistan

I like how your first link starts with a quote on the Taliban's progress from an Islamist leader :tooth:

But it looks like the Taliban is already in retreat as they've overstepped their bounds. I still maintain that the Pakistani Army of 500,000 active and another 500,000 reserves isn't going to let the Taliban take over.

That being said, I also noted it was ripe for flame up. Could get ugly...

-spence

I think that we are in for some big problems over there. The Paks are more worried about India than they are than what is happening in their own yard. On top of that, a sizeable percentage of the inteligence services and the military sympathize (if not members of) the Taleban. Yeh, its going to suck badly.

I'm not confusing anything.

Bush, Rove and Cheney have all said at one time or another that the attack planned in 2002 was prevented with the intelligence they received from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. However, he was not tortured for information until March 2003.

There's nothing to confuse.

there were no attacks planned on America...it's all made up to justify the horrors of waterboarding....

hey, for the folks...democrats in washington and liberals everywhere that are just "OURTRAGED" that their country engaged in the brutal and unspeakable procedure known as waterboarding, how the world views us as a result and it's use on "3" terrorists so far as I can see ....

aren't many of you the same people that barely blink when asked about abortion and all of it's forms? our fearless leader has condoned the procedure(AND NOW ARRANGED FEDERAL FUNDING FOR) right up to the point that if you happen to survive THE TORTURE OF LATE TERM ABORTION..... you get no medical assistance.....simply expire in a closet....huh?

which would you prefer?....water poured over your head to simulate drowning.....or....being dragged through a tight space then having something jabbed into your brain to hopefully cause you death ? I know that the latter occurs far more frequently in this country each year...the former are mass murders or potential mass murderers and the later...well.....we'll never know now will we???

WHY SHOULD AMERICA EVER BE PUNISHED WITH A TERRORIST???
WE DIDN'T WANT THEM....
THEY SNUCK IN WHEN WE WEREN"T USING PROPER PROTECTION...
WE CAN"T AFFORD TO HAVE THEM AROUND.....
AND THEY"LL PROBABLY NEVER AMOUNT TO ANYTHING...I MEAN...WHAT KIND OF LIVES WILL THEY HAVE IF LEFT TO DEVELOP???

If we are going to release "torture" photos/videos
We need to release to the public pictures and video of partial birth abortions along with accurate statistics so that the public can know and see what is being done...

let the public decide which is more heinous.....

what do you think the polls would be after watching both..... side by side...partial birth abortion of LITTLE BABIES vs. waterboarding TERRORISTS????
Clearly the dems in Washington and many of their supporters have decided which they find more troubling...YIKES!!!!

I THINK WE OWE THE WORLD A BIG APOLOGY!!!!

ABORT TERRORISTS...SUPPORT PLANNED RADICAL ISLAMISTHOOD

Well that is quite the typical conservative response to being proven wrong...

Act ridiculous and completely stop making any sense at all.

Got Bush through 8 years.

Sure,,, let me just run to the base, and ask the Admiral if I can get those declassified. May take a while as he'd have to get approval from the Whitehouse, but I'm sure once he tells them I need it because some Liberal on a fishing board online doesn't wanna listen to sense, they will jump right on it..... :call:

If Bush "misspoke" on the dates, well he did get confused from time to time. :bl:

Several people in the Administration made the assertion on several different occasions, this isn't based on one Bush gaffe.

To be honest there's so much disinformation floating around it's difficult to know what's believable, although the reports from people who report to have actually been there seem pretty consistent.

-spence

It may or may not work. They might or might not have stopped an attack. It may or may not have even been "torture". But I don't see anyone on this board a victim of a terrorist attack since 9/11 so I say... Job well done.

it points out that this administration is capable of making decisions based not on idealology but on common sense. Not decisions based on who is good or bad, but what is right and wrong.

:jump::jump: Right, that's it.

I, for one, finally welcome an administration that doesn't let the Bible dictate every non-commerce related decision.

Yes, that pretty much sums up their "ends justify the means" justification that started us down this slippery slope. I don't think I could have been more concise had I tried.

-spence

Neither side owns right and wrong.

-spence

Sure they do.
we're married.
hence, always rong