ya know, this tinfoil helmut is really woking. I have no desire to to explain that the pompus behavior of our government to uphold our contol of the world is what fuels the fire of terrorism... non what-so-ever :D

got an extra helmet Eben? :heybaby:

You can get them for free from www.whitehouse.gov :smash:

-spence

:devil:Nah-ah. Click here.

Let's go fly some Saudi passenger planes into a few mosques and see how those ragheads like it. :af:

Good idea...ILS

Yes, very well thought out. When I'm President you can be my Secretary of Defense :rolleyes:

-spence

I don't do Socialist administrations.

Conventional or not, totally crushing the enemy is still the way to victory.
When playing a team sport and your ahead, do you feel bad for them and let up? Maybe let them score a few points? Play a "More sensitive game"?
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Absolutly not!

ILS, perhaps you could explain what a socialist is then.

I'm not advocating pacifism here, I'd ask you to ask yourselves if we are crushing the enemy.

We moved into Afghanistan without securing the border (a near impossible task) and effectively let the armed Taliban run across the border and into the hills. Instead of applying US force to capture al Qaida leaders we bribed local tribesmen to do it, and they did an abusrdly poor job. Currently Pres. Karzai has little control outside of Kabul and the armed insurgents are filtering back into the country. Opium exports are at an all time high. Many experts are predicting the region will erupt into massive violence within 18 months.

The Buhs Administration has completly f'up just about every aspect of Iraq, and now we face an insurgency of 40,000 with hundred of thousands of sympathisers. What's worse is that our military is so overextended it does not have the logistics to keep going at this rate. In 12 months we will have to pull out ready or not.

Perhaps our most treasured weapon in the war on terror, clear moral high-ground to act freely when necessary, has been effectively erased due to our unjustified urgent unilateral actions and prisoner abuse scandals.

Actions that would really help the war on terror are being ignored. Our border with Mexico still lets millions of illegals through every year. We abandoned the Palestinian peace process delaying for years any possible improvement. There has been zero initiative by the government to reduce our dependancy on fossil fuels and our blood pact with the Saudi's, who by the way are funding most of the anti-US hate in the world.

So the point for BigBo and others is simple. This isn't about being a liberal, a socialist or a non-patriot. It's not about giving up on the team, being a pussy, letting the UN dictate our actions or getting in touch with our emotional sides. It's not even about partisan Buhs bashing...

It's about paying attention to what's really going on, and the realization that our current path is completely awry. We're making little real progress while at the same time fanning the flames that lead to terrorisim in the first place. There is a much better way to fight the war on terror.

-spence

So now, you are an expert on military srategy, logistics, and deployment? Did you attend West Point or the Naval War College?

I'd rather hear from someone who's had first-hand experience in the region, rather than some leftist malcontent blow-hard armchair analyst who's been getting his pre-digested "data" from the Communist Globe and the dope-smokers on Air America Radio. Something tells me there's more to this than what's airing on CNN. :bshake:

Never claimed to be an expert, although I do consume a lot of what the experts write. Interestingly enough, I'd wager the experts from the Naval War College would probably agree with just about everything I'm saying ;)

So who's first hand information are you listening to then, and what is first hand information anyway?

Perhaps if you made an effort to actually discuss that to which you disagree, you could gain a better understanding for a very serious viewpoint.

Also, you do realize that communism is much more closely aligned with today's neo-conservatisim than liberalisim. I'm far from being a liberal, (if you kew what one was, you would know that) but in the future please make misguided ad hominem jokes in the context of socialisim so at least you are consistentlywrong :laughs:

-spence

:rtfm:

:sleeps: :yawn: :fishslap:

Didn't think you had it in ya :bshake: :D

-spence

I think Eben looks hot in shorts. :love: :heybaby:

hubba hubba. Eben gittin sum. Betcha those Indonesian LBFM's don't even cum close to our purty fish. :heybaby:

Can I get a hi-rez version of that???

I want to frame it and give it to my wife as a reminder of what may come...if she doesn't behave :laughs:

-spence

Yup, them cold-blooded slimy beasts are more delectable than those Indonesian LBFM's.

:smash: you thought bass thumb hurt :(

:laughs: :rotf2:

Eben, thank you, I was just about to sit down to my lunch when I read this. My legs are now permanently crossed.

p.s. please tell me you don't have hooks or grommets or a thru-wire in your weenie. What kind of perverted monstrosity would even dream up of such a thing? ;)

Only smelly jelly in Tuna flavor :devil:

i'm partial to clam myself.

thruwire hooks and grommets in the richard?

ya'd look like a freaking lawn sprinkler, when ya relieved yerself, if'n ya ever did that :eek:

Sure it's not chili-dog? :yak:

Sorry Spence, here's my take on just Afganistan. Iraq isn't far behind and to suggest we're wasting our time there and that our policies are misguided is an insult to our soldiers, to our institutions and our morals. Here's a small but important look at what we've accomplished there in just two years.

Afganistan:

Rebuilt 13 Afghan ministries, including the Ministries of Agriculture, Health, and Education and other institutions wiped out during the conflict and Taliban oppression.

Repairing buildings and record-keeping systems, and training competent managers and teachers.

Investing in primary education by building schools, training teachers, and providing textbooks not that was not allowed by the Taliban.

Spurring agricultural recovery and rural reconstruction.

Reconstituting the basic institutions of national government.

Ensuring that the reconciliation and reconstruction processes spelled out in the Bonn Agreement take place in a timely and transparent fashion is an important confidence-building measure after more than twenty years of internal conflict.

As an alternative to the Taliban's emphasis on isolation and a closed society, USAID programs support a free media; provide training for professional journalists; lend assistance to private organizations of women, professionals and reformers; nurture local non-governmental organizations through shared project implementation; and, launch other initiatives intended to spur free, open debate about the future of Afghanistan, and the participation in that debate by all elements of Afghan society committed to democratic principles.

Rome-based Food and Agriculture Organization reported an 82% increase in production of wheat - Afghanistan's staple grain - since the fall of the Taliban, with a further increase in production expected with this year's harvest.

The Afghan central bank has been placed on a sound footing, new central bank and banking laws have been enacted, and the investment code is on the verge of promulgation.

The generosity of the U.S. people has provided 25 million textbooks for Afghan children.

We have repaired or rebuilt 121 health clinics and facilities and will rebuild or construct 400 more over the next three years. We have also repaired or rebuilt 203 schools and will build or rebuild another 1,000 by 2006.

Many ministries have been repaired, and an orderly national budget process is in place.

Functioning Judicial and Human Rights Commissions are in place, and programs are underway to begin demobilizing factional fighters in the countryside.

A post-Taliban rebirth of civil society is under way in Afghanistan, with numerous radio stations up and running, a journalist training center funded with U.S. assistance in operation in Kabul, and a functioning Ministry of Women's Affairs establishing women's centers-with strong Congressional encouragement-across the nation.

You see Spence, not all is wasted, not all is doom and gloom as you would have us believe. Yes there are many hurdles yet to be dealt with, lots of work ahead still, but I think this is the right path to be on.

Source: Andrew S. Natsios, USAID Administrator

More resources:

http://www.adb.org/Afghanistan/reports.asp

I didn't know this, but Afghanistan has its own currency.

They must have named it after a rug or a dog...it's called the "Afghani" and it's at 43 to the U.S. dollar. Wonder how many rugs I can buy.

Let me restate this so I'm sure I understand...

To suggest our policies are misguided is an insult to our soldiers, our institutions and are morals.

Are you completely insane?

I think it's an insult to our soldiers to ignore Generals and let Civilians dictate invasion logistics, seld them into battle without proper armor, to enact a backdoor draft to extend thier stay and to ask they they alone and not the American people be asked to sacrifice.

Don't you think it's insulting for Buhs to spend 50 Million dollars on his coronation, while our dismembered troops at Walter Reed Hospital are begging for phone cards to call home? (I stole this line from Imus ;))

Don't you think it's insulting that we're currently giving a death benefit of 12 measly thousand dollars, and states are rushing to purchase life insurance for their guardsmen? They're proposing increasing the death benefit as a measure to aid recruitment which is not doing well. I thought we were supposed to be fighting for our freedom!

Don't you think it's insulting that we had to borrow the 67B for body armour and supplies, rather than allow a tiny fraction of the last tax cut to pay for it.

Don't you think it's insulting that when challenged about lack of armor, the Secretary of Defense's response was "deal with it".

We have an amazing military. These men and women deserve 100% of our support. I think they're being treated like pawns and mercenaries.

I think our institution of Liberty should enable us to lead by example, not disenfranchise the world and attempt to force fit democracy through bombs because it makes sense to us. You can have any government you want, as long as it's not Islamic :rolleyes:

I think our morals are severly compramised when we inisist to the world that we must urgently flatten Iraq because of the extreme threat, then learn that we never had real evidence to justify our insistance for urgency...almost all of which have all been proven wrong. This doesn't mean we didn't have to deal with Saddam, it does mean we didn't have to screw it up this badly and those who did should be held accountable.

This isn't about doon and gloom, it's about being able to accept that arrogance and hubris are playing more of a factor in our decisions than strategy and sound thought. It's about the frear that an Administration which has made a mountain of mistakes and continues to deny them all, will continue to make more mistakes.

I understand we've rebuilt some schools etc...and for those who's lives are better for it I'm glad. But our strategic plan for eliminating or reducing the threat of terrorisim in the US is very flawed...that's what you should read into my posts above.

Patriotisim is standing up for what you believe is right because you love your country. Don't just listen to what the Administration says, they weave a terrific story...look at what they do.

-spence

"I think our morals are severly compramised when we inisist to the world that we must urgently flatten Iraq because of the extreme threat, then learn that we never had real evidence to justify our insistance for urgency...almost all of which have all been proven wrong"

I guess Sadamm must of bombed the kurds in the north with bubble bath then. I guess he must have showered the marsh arabs in the south with teddy bears and ice cream. I guess all of those mass graves is just propaganda, props put there by some unknown persons. I guess those rape & torture cells spread across Iraq where just sets used in movies. I guess Sadaam really never invaded Kuwait and threatened the rest of his neighbors. Maybe they just were going for a little r&r at the beach? Funny how the Iraqi olympic athletes were able to come home as loosers and not have to pay for it with their lives or dismemberments for a change. Nope, no evidence here though. Funny how Syria ends up with loads of WMD's coming from Iraq, must of been delivering "baby milk" instead. God forbid your ever in these folks shoes and you need help.

Care to explain which of these events justified immediate invasion? There is a tremendous amount of hell going on in the world. We stood by while a million Rwandans were murdered didn't we? By this logic we should be running round the planet fighting injustice. How many of these dictators were paid off during the cold war to be our allies???

The timing of the invasion and the methods were justified by a single issue, WMD in the form of a mushroom cloud in the United States or major biological attact. History has clearly demonstrated 2 very important facts related to this point.

Fact 1 - Saddam was nowhere near making a nuke, and had no current nuclear or biological weapons program. Not that he didn't have intent...but there was no beef in the burger.

Fact 2 - The US government had little to no evidence to justify the statements made by Chenye, Rummy, Buhs, Powell and Rice on Saddam's WMD. Don't believe me? read the bi-partisan Senate report.

I'd say this is insulting, and is against our instutions and morals.

I still like your avatar by the way ;)

All of the above. What do you call Sarin (Nerve Gas)? Laughing gas?

See below: (Very Graphic)
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill...rdistan96.html

http://groups.msn.com/ProAmericaProC...7000kurds.msnw

Maybe the folks in these photos are just resting or maybe even faking? And you can sit here and tell me that there was no threat? I see, as long as its not in my backyard attitude eh? The man was simply a monster and a menace to his neighbors and the rest of the world and we should've off'd him and his like a loooong time ago. Now we have some catching up to do. Yes I do like my avitar, thanks.:)

The gassing of the Kurds was a terrible thing, but it was no threat to the United States. Did it prove he did at one time have chemical weapons? Silly question, the UN inspectors destroyed tons of the things years later...

The important issue is, did he have them currently and was he willing to use them against the US most likely via al Qaida.

I will spare you a thesis, but the Administration has still not come up with any evidence to justify they had reason to believe either was true, aside from presumed guilt from the lack of cooperation in the inspection process.

#^&#^&#^&#^& Chenye on many occations made strong assertions of evidence to link Saddam with al Qaida that had been clearly disproven in the International community and even the CIA.

Remember Powell's fameous UN speech about mobile weapons labs? We later learned the information was single source, second hand and came from a cousin of Achmed Chalibi, known criminal and head of the INC which was being paid by the Administration 300 grand a month!

The bi-partisan Senate investigated even reported that many of the conslusions were not made from CIA intel, but rather through Pentagon sources with no accountability...people like Chalibi who was telling us exactly what we wanted to hear. Chalibi and the Administration shared one thing...an agenda. Rumor has it he may be the next Iraqi Oil Minister.

You could almost turn a blind eye and argue they just thought they were doing the right thing to protect Americans...but dig a little deeper and the same people who architected this war have written at length about removing Saddam as an initial step in their agenda, long before 9/11 ever happened.

McNamara doesn't have a proud place in history...neither will they.

Ok, I almost but didn't quite write a thesis this time :smash:

-spence

Gassing the Kurds and waging war against his neighbors was and is a direct threat to the U.S and the rest of the world just by destablizing the entire region and its oil markets. Sure, I'll admit it, alot has do do with oil. WE DEPEND ON IT, unfortunetly,(thats another debate in itself). War starts, oil stops, refugees gather, war continues, governments turn more radical etc. Just because no wmd's haven't been found doesn't mean they never existed. If You don't catch a keeper one night does this mean there are no fish out there? I still hold hope that they will be found one day but I don't loose sleep over it . Sadaam allowed Al Qaida to harbour themselves in his country, although he may not have had a direct link to them. I'm sure that there are prisoners in cuba that would attest to that. As for mobile weapons labs, I don't see any great importance in that. Hell, just fill up a backback with crap and you have a mobile weapons lab. Every administration has an agenda, thats how they operate. I'm sure the administration had a plan to rid of Sadaam long before 9/11 and rightfully so. Senior should of seen to that. :smash:

So why didn't we invade then?

-spence

anyone want to venture a guess as to what the Iraqi people are going to do with Saddam Hussein?

chop his nuts off? life imprisonment in a dark hole with a 1,000 nympho homos? jail break?

At the time of the gassings there was a joint Kurdish-Iranian force fighting the Iraqi's(which were still our ally) and with the conflict in Iran vs. the U.S., the U.S. did not want to isolate another arab country. To the United States, Iraq's secular regime was an important counter-balance to Iran, where anti-American passion mixed with radical Islam had led to the overthrow of the U.S.-backed Shah, not to mention America's huge business dealings in Iraq at the time. Personnally, I think that just a sanctioning of Sadaam during that period was a weak response and that was the beginning of the end for ole Sadaam. Should the UN have applied more pressure? Certainly, but I see them as spineless anyhow.

I understand the cold war aspects, but we can't ignore something when it's in our interest...then claim is as justification when it's handy. It's bad for the karma ;)

Understand as well, I separate the various reasons for removing Saddam (some of which are valid), the justification for the timing of invasion (which looked valid, but with visibility into the Administration's decision making process was patently corrupt), and the complete failure to plan properly along with the lack of accountability for those who were complicit in the mistakes.

Let's even say for a moment that we're all in agreement Saddam should have been ousted...how do you explain how the Administration has been wrong on 99% of the expectations given to the American people? And why are you willing to give Buhs a free pass? Could it be that there are other motivations that are driving their decisions besides what's on the surface?

We're not talking about simple little mistakes here...over 1300+ dead US troops, nearly 10,000 disfigured, a tab of 200 Billion and growing, tens of thousands of dead Iraqi's and a recruitment Christmas present for Osama better than a Red Ryder BB Gun!

-spence

:exp: :doh:

Everytime the term "backdoor draft" comes up I get mad. Lets review the role and conditions of Reserve / Guard service. The role of these units is to be activated during time of need. This is why they exist. Reserve units are usually support and Guard are usually combat troops. During the 80's we downsized our military, during the same period of time, we upsized our Guard/Reserves. Our military was built around these units.

Okay lets review some rules. When you join the military active, guard or reserve, you commit to an 8 year total obligation. You might only have 3 or 4 active, but the remainder of the 8 is there and must be completed. If you stay active past the 8 year mark, then when you get out, you are done. If you do more than 20, then up until your 30 year mark you are inactive reserve. Inactive reserve means that you can be recalled at anytime. So when this happens people freak and start screaming "Backdoor Draft". This is the way our military is designed. We train this way, we train for the reserves/guard to fill there roles. If we have a job that is high need, every active person in the military understands "stop loss". Did you know that in WWII everyones enlistment was extended until 6 months after the war was over?

Don't argue with Spence, you cannot change his mind.