Your right, I would sing like a sparrow. I guess your admitting it works.

The American people don't have the stomach for a heavy handed war. Imagine dropping the bomb now. We have gone soft. You can talk tough all you want, but the fact is, if the people in charge would let our men fight then we WOULD kick butt. They won't ,so we are forced to fight covert. Just thank your lucky stars that there are people willing to make the hard choices and do the hard thing so your kids can sleep in peace.

Seems like I'm argueing with you. How's your chair?:lasso:

I think this is a load of horse hockey.

People have the stomach for war when they believe it's the right thing to do, but people are not warmongers.

When Bush's marketing department convinced the American people that Saddam was involved with 9/11 the people we're out for blood. They didn't turn because they went soft, they turned because the oringinal case for war fell apart and they felt duped.

Most people aren't against torture because they're soft, they're against it because without a line in the sand we're no better than they are. Basswipe is right on this.

-spence

real torture
 

You may be right Spence. But if we were to fight World War II, with the media coverage we now have, the public opinion would be for us to get out. We have become soft. Can you imagine the outrage when 100 young solders are killed from your small town alone. My point is that if we are not going to let our troops fight they way they are trained, then you should count your blessings that we have covert harsh interogation or what ever the hell you want to call it.
Basswipe is dead on. If the generals made the dicisions then the war would be over. They don't. A bunch of pansie politicians do.

I talk tough because I lived it.Our boys ARE fighting hard.Who are you to question anything an American soldier does?Have you served?Have you seen?I can answer that.....a great big no I would say.I'll wager your kids sleep in "peace" through nothing you've done but what others have done.How dare you question my commitment to my country and my family.

My chair is fine.I was standing outside of mine while you were sitting in yours!Go to hell.

Waterboarding works because it causes complete agony.America isn't about inflicting agony on its prisoners,ask American POWS of the Japanese how it feels dumbo!Think before you speak dumbass!

We should be killing these freaks outright through firepower and technology...no prisoners to start with.Shear domination.Wake up kid.

Wow! You totally misread him. He wasn't criticizing us that have served or are serving, he was criticizing the damn politicians. Our military is like a professional baseball team, and they make us play with a plastic bat, a tee and a wiffle ball. The politicians love to put us in harms way and tie our hands!

And the petty name calling was beneath even you, Basswipe.

I agree.My apologies to buckman.

I cleaned it up a little.

And I a little clarification.When I say I lived it I mean to say I had an uncle who freely talked about his time as a Japanese POW.I certainly wouldn't want to misrepresent what I wanted to say.

Basswipe,
No one respects the military and those that serve more then me. I thank you and my children thank you for your service. Read my past post and you will see my feelings for the men and women that serve or have served.

JAPANESE WATERBOARDING
 

The American left has hit a new low by trivializing genuine war crimes through likening them to the discomfort inflicted by water boarding. Since the release of the "torture" memos this mantra has been repeated by liberals: we convicted and executed Japanese War criminals for water boarding so the Bush Administration has to be brought to justice.

this document from the actual trials; "Japanese Methods of Prisoner of War Interrogation."


" The victim's stomach is filled with water from a hose placed in the throat. A plank is then placed across the distended stomach, and Japanese, one on each end, then ' see-saw' thus forcing out the water from the stomach. Many of the victims die under this torture."


"The victim's thumbs are tied together and he is hitched by them to a motor car which proceeds to pull him around in a circle until he falls exhausted. This is repeated at two-or three day intervals."


Prisoners were made to beat each other, half rations for "special PWs (Army Air Corp)," beheadings? The liberal strategy of moral equivalence employed but only when it serves their political goals.

To make it even worse, the Japanese visited these atrocities, and worse, not just on captured military personnel, but on the civilian population as well. With regard to civilians, the whole purpose of this torture, often mass torture, was punitive. It was completely different from the coercive stress techniques used here to elicit information from people aiming to cause mass "man caused disasters.

[QUOTE=Cool Beans;686559]Here's a log for the fire.....

Do Liberals consider abortion as torture?

abrtion is the first sacrament of the religeon of the left, it's euphoric...but, you can't call it abortion anymore...we're way beyond that polarizing term that the conservatives have so sullied...it's..."the enlightened elimination of unwanted punsishment for behavior taught in kindegarten procedure"...or...Altrnative Democrat Voter Registration Guaranteed Loyalty for Life Program...

Scott.
I'll give you one thing. your posts always leave me saying...
what the %$%$%$%$ is he talking about?

sorry RIR....here...a little more concise...the left has used "waterboarding" as a political issue as they have Valerie Plame, Domestic Spying, Abu Ghraib and many others, feigned outrage supported by the press to gain political advantage.....you cannot compare what is being called "torture" in this case based on the facts with what has been done around the world and throughout history to "actually torture" and keep a straight face if you are at all serious.... and at the same time continue to support abortion in all of it's forms.... and publically fund it as well......it's just funny what the outrages left and what does not...clearly the morality is determined by political expediency and not some basic sense of right and wrong...love ya man...

Yes, a basic sense of write and wrong as you have defined them.

Good to see you're in charge of the moral relativism police.

-spence

call it immoral relativism

let's see, I'm willing to allow water to be poured into the faces of three mass(or aspiring) murderers to gain informtion that may or will(waiting for the memos) save innocent lives.....

the left in general is currently very upset that this so called torture took place and while at the same time whole heartedly supports and with public funds the abortions of milions of innocent babies....

seems to me a handful of lawyers approved both practices...

and I'm the crazy one...:heybaby:

I have to agree with Scott here ( Surprise!) You don't think this is about politics Spence?

While my heart tells me one thing, my mind tells me another as far as abortion goes. I don't think anyone considers it the "right" thing to do. The right thing to do, is not get knocked up. I think it should have it's own thread.

terrorists are people...with rights!
babies are not... with none?

uncomfortable, I know...
"don't hate me because I'm sensible":as:

Getting into a debate about abortion is like getting into a debate about religion, cyclical and boring.

The arguments on both sides are tired and unoriginal. The same crap has been stated over and over again by both sides for decades.

That's how arguments about morals always go. What one person finds immoral, there will always be another that finds it moral.

What's annoying to me is that abortion really has absolutely nothing to do with Waterboarding. Abortion is a moral issue, waterboarding is a legal issue.

BUT...waterboarding three dirt bags....now that's a "legal issue" that the left can really get up in arms about .....weird.....

wait...I though torture was a moral issue??? "WE DON'T TORTURE"...remember..we only dismember....not terrorists of course...the question with waterboarding is if in fact, it is actual torture...on the scale of possible torture methods it seems to be WAAAAYYY down on the worst that could be employed....bordering on...oh, I don't know....ENHANCED INTERROGATION..and apparently , at the time a perfectly acceptable way of eliciting information for a host of dem. lawmakers..that was, until they could make it a political issue...keep separating law and morality when it's convenient for you:hee:

Well, it has become very apparent that you've paid zero attention to anything I have said previously.

First, Waterboarding has never been a *moral issue* for me. I have repeatedly stated, "If they broke the law, then they should be prosecuted."

Second, Waterboarding has already been *defined* as torture by the US and other countries. "Enhanced Interrogation" is merely a euphemism. A politically inaccurate term developed so that politicians can refer to the actions without saying "torture"... and the American public has so far been stupid enough to go along with it. Looks like you've taken the bait hook, line and sinker as well.

I don't separate law and morality when it's convenient for me. I've been quite explicit that this whole issue is a legal one. Maybe you should look back at previous posts in this very thread once in a while. *You're* the one conflating the matter.

It's funny. I've never mentioned my opinion of abortion before but you assume my position on it because I think people in the Bush Administration should be tried for ordering torture.

Your massive level of ignorance is amazing. Pull the shroud from your eyes and take a step outside of your bubble. Don't bother replying to any more of posts by me with the expectation of a response because I'm done with you. Trying to have an intelligent conversation with people like you is impossible, with your verbal diarrhea. It's like you take a thousand random subjects, throw them in a hat and pull one out to use as a rebuttal, regardless of the subject.

What is the world coming to? She has been very outspoken about prosecuting Bush Administration members for torture. Now, Nancy Pelosi approves of waterboarding?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...120801664.html

This is all very confusing.:huh:

ahhh... the plot thickens

very touchy for someone who himself can be quite annoying:smokin:
cranky know it all:wave:
I went a fished the end of the drop while you were writing all of that and now have some filleting to do, you should forget politics for a while and fish a little and relax......you seem uptight...

I'm not touchy at all. However, you've made it quite apparent that you pay zero attention to anything people say, make nonsense points, and try to relate topics that don't even have the slightest relationship to each other. Then you try to accuse me of separating morals and legality as I see it fit, when I've never implied any opinion about morals.

I'll be fishing all weekend.

Nah, it's not confusing at all. Just displays the point that Pelosi is a complete, unethical moron. She demonstrates one opinion behind closed doors because the public won't see it, yet was outspoken about prosecuting the Bush Administration because it was the cool thing to do.

Corrupt pieces of Sh&t. I'm going fishing....:fishin:

it sounds like you know that I'm right and just can't deal with the massive blow to your world view...

what happened to "I'm done with you?"

heh..heh..gotta have the last word eh' Johnny?

that's ok, you just keep pontificating ...hey are we going to put all of the members of our military in jail for breaking the law when they used waterboarding to train our troops? we need to be consistent...

why did Obama feel the need to ban waterboarding in 2009 if it was already illegal? and immoral??

why is the defense department refusing to comment on whether it's still used for training purposes?

Nancy Pelosi is a victim of Botox poisoning..too much of that stuff makes you crazy and she goes through a lot!

good luck buddy, hope ya get a big one:heybaby:

That's why I like you, JD. You don't blindly stick to the party affiliation bs and can recognize that there idiots on both sides. Good luck with the fishing. Let me know if you have any luck.

Johnny, you really stepped in it when you said this was a legal and not ethical issue...wow, I thought you were smarter than that.

As for Scott's running non sequitor, last time I checked how we train our troops and how we handle prisoners wasn't covered under the same jurisdiction. That is unless Scott thinks of our troops as potential terrorists :hihi:

As for Pelosi, there seems to be a lot of questions as to what they were actually briefed on. I'd wager they didn't do their homework and simply went along with what was being proposed considering this was right after 9/11. Not that they could have done anything about it, in these secret briefings they can't even take notes to have an aid do a detailed legal review.

That being said, assuming they were briefed, select members of Congress are certainly responsible for either not providing oversight or being hypocritical.

-spence

Again, this is where the misconception lies... I've stated over and over again that my opinion with regards to anyone being prosecuted lies in the legal aspect of things. The entire issue at hand lies within the legality or illegality of waterboarding being ordered. Regardless of the issue being moral or not, people cannot be tried for immoral acts if those acts were within the bounds of the law.

However, it is my belief that the actions were outside of our domestic law and also outside international law, and as such, people must be held accountable for the actions that took place.

When I state that "the waterboarding issue has never been a moral one", it is with regards to the discussions of Bush Administration officials being brought up on charges.

While I've never been explicit in my moral opinion of waterboarding, reading my first few posts in this thread should yield a sufficient understanding of where my opinion lies.

I listened to a couple of Pelosi's public statements regarding her knowledge of the matter. Now, I am only speculating but, the way she articulates some of the things she has said and the way she punctuated certain statements gave me the impression she was overcompensating. Listening to a few minutes of her talking about the matter made me feel like she knew exactly what was going on and is now trying to backtrack on the actual events to keep her nose clean.