Over Sealed - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

numbskull · 01-12-2009, 09:21 PM

".....and a sadder but wiser man he rose the morrow morn"
Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner

Well I figured something out.....the hard way again. Probably worth its own thread. Been trying to build Musso darters. First turned a few out of soft maple, seemed too light. Built a bunch out of hard maple, then soaked them for 24 hours in ValOil/Mineral spirits, to seal them "well". I'd done this with needles in the past and it had worked well. They came out weighing 2.7-2.9 oz unrigged/unpainted which is about .3-.5 oz more than they should. So I went back and built a bunch out of soft maple, soaked them the same, and was stunned to find they ended up at 2.7-2.8 oz as well. Weighed some unsealed ones and they weighed 1.9oz! The plugs picked up almost an ounce of sealer. That is a lot of weight for a 6" plug. Put one in the oven and cooked it for 30" at 200 degrees. Weight dropped from 2.73 to 2.42 oz. One horrendous stench. So on top of everything else, if you are trying to copy a plug exactly, you not only have to get the wood right, but you need to adjust your sealing time as well. Ugh.

Slipknot · 01-12-2009, 09:40 PM

Yes, I think you are on to something George

Also, do you have a moisture meter?
check it , especially on maple

have you tried rock maple?

maybe stick to birch

BigFish · 01-12-2009, 10:44 PM

Gotta tell you I do not think you need to soak them so long. It ain't brain surgery Doc! They are wood and try as you might they will eventually fall victim to their surroundings....water! There is only so much you can control and in the end......each piece of wood no matter how hard you try has a different density than the next piece! Adding an ounce do to sealing??? Over time your action will change again as the sealer drys or seeps out! Just my own theory....I know everyone has their own.

Pete F. · 01-12-2009, 11:16 PM

I dip them and let them drip, after a while I wipe the big drip off the bottom. I don't think sealing the outside amounts to that much since the hooks seem to gouge pretty deep fairly soon. I think sealing the thruhole, swivel holes and lip slot are way more important.

Grapenuts · 01-13-2009, 07:03 AM

Numb...go buy yourself a Delong elect. oil plug in heater...place an old fridge wire shelf on top of it,,place your sealed plugs on the shelf and set the heat to 72 degrees,,,walk away. it's a nice slow dry even heat,won't fry the wood or twist it out of shape..but being a constance heat it does it's job very well unlike an oven....it also won't smell like your oven will either...It's also great [if] you rig up a rod over it to hang primed plugs, again slow dry heat, you get nice dry primer in no time..do the same after finish painting,,hang to dry....it's also helps heat the work place too...no chance of fire either cause it never gets hot enough.

Diggin Jiggin · 01-13-2009, 07:14 AM

I've got my soft maple ones that I heat sealed with spar varnish last weekend laying on top of the baseboard heater. I wish I'd thought to weigh them before and after....

Mr. Krinkle · 01-13-2009, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete F.

I dip them and let them drip, after a while I wipe the big drip off the bottom. I don't think sealing the outside amounts to that much since the hooks seem to gouge pretty deep fairly soon. I think sealing the thruhole, swivel holes and lip slot are way more important.

I agree with you totally. I think that the sealer is pretty much compromised when the hooks dig in.

eastendlu · 01-13-2009, 10:29 AM

Maple has a tendency to suck in alot of sealer more than other woods that i have noticed something with the rod formation it has.George are you sure mussos darters were maple as i copied one a few years back and swan like a turd then i come to find out it was made out of pine.Also he was always unconventional on his lip angles double check those too(got that info from him).

ProfessorM · 01-13-2009, 10:34 AM

Calling Dr. Howard , Dr. Fine , Dr. Numbskull. horrendous stench . LOL Thanks for another screw up you are teaching us well.

SO Lawrence what is your recommendation for length of time to soak,seal say AYC.

Tagger · 01-13-2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by numbskull

" Put one in the oven and cooked it for 30" at 200 degrees. One horrendous stench.

Boy .. She puts up with alot .. I'd be sleeping in my car .

I pre heat my plugs 20min 200-225 ...acid brush my (thinner than water) CPES on them and syringe it thru the middle .. Sucs right in ,, bone dry next day.. no noticible weight gain .. Although our methods are different I think Larry's right again ... 24 hrs.. way over kill ... why not just use pressure treated ?

Canalman · 01-13-2009, 12:30 PM

George,

If you read those old articles that someone posted about Musso and his wooden plugs printed in the Fisherman some 20 years ago, you'll see that he sealed his plugs with some kind of Acrylic sealer. Acrylics simply do not penetrate, they stick, I'd bet that if you were to "Bandsaw Eddy" one of those darters, you'd find a shiny, hard coating on the inside of the thru-wire and hook holes. This means minimal time in the stuff and that only what sticks and dries on the surface is going to add to the weight.

Another thing you might try is epoxying the plug before you seal it, this will limit the surface area that is absorbing the sealer. I do this all the time to limit that very problem.

Let me know what you think...
-dave

ProfessorM · 01-13-2009, 12:37 PM

cold right? not heated.

Canalman · 01-13-2009, 01:16 PM

Nope I don;t heat them.. too much extra time

although I'm sure the results would be the same either way

Tagger · 01-13-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastendlu

Maple has a tendency to suck in alot of sealer more than other woods that i have noticed something with the rod formation it has.George are you sure mussos darters were maple as i copied one a few years back and swan like a turd then i come to find out it was made out of pine.Also he was always unconventional on his lip angles double check those too(got that info from him).

Lu .... Musso darters are unweighted right ? ... Pine ???? .. my unweighted hard maple darted fine ,, even after they split..

Where does the weight come from if they are unweighted and pine ??

eastendlu · 01-13-2009, 02:13 PM

The one i have is a rare little guy on loan the hooks provide the weight. He made them for some friends that fish snook in Florida from what i understand.

Tagger · 01-13-2009, 02:28 PM

i had 3 musso darters good weight on them .. can't imagine unweighted pine .. call him on the telly ,, find out ... his 3 ounce size ,

BigFish · 01-13-2009, 07:02 PM

Prof....BLO/Mins 60/40.......1 minute soak....(yes just 1 minute) wipe excess off and let dry for about 5 days! I posted this before that I tested a bunch of bodies and soaked them for different amounts of time between 1 minute and 1 hour and found no difference in penetration from 1 minute to 1 hour. I have never had any issues with my sealing time. Everyone has their method and soak times.....this works great for me!

NIB · 01-13-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFish

Prof....BLO/Mins 60/40.......1 minute soak....(yes just 1 minute) wipe excess off and let dry for about 5 days! I posted this before that I tested a bunch of bodies and soaked them for different amounts of time between 1 minute and 1 hour and found no difference in penetration from 1 minute to 1 hour. I have never had any issues with my sealing time. Everyone has their method and soak times.....this works great for me!

My friend makes darters he told me the BLO/MS concentration of 50/50 worked better on the more dense woods like hard maple.

PNG · 01-13-2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tagger

I pre heat my plugs 20min 200-225 ...acid brush my (thinner than water) CPES on them and syringe it thru the middle .. Sucs right in ,, bone dry next day.. no noticible weight gain .. Although our methods are different I think Larry's right again ... 24 hrs.. way over kill ... why not just use pressure treated ?

Me...
CPES in a ziplock bag. Soak for whatever time you want. Different woods different soaktime. Different plugs different soak time.
When 1st soak is done zip up bag keep cool, next day a quick dip in the pool and you are done.

ProfessorM · 01-14-2009, 12:55 AM

Thanks L. I was just curious

BigFish · 01-14-2009, 05:32 AM

That method was for AYC Paul....hardwoods probably longer.

Flaptail · 01-14-2009, 05:59 AM

I've been doing the dip and wipe with Slip's touch of using the pipe cleaners soaked in sealer and run thru the thru wire hole. Works fine. Plugs hold up.

Don't over think it G. At this rate you'll drive yourself mad and family relations will suffer the closer we get to plugfest.

I have a great resource for stress management if you feel the need.

NIB · 01-14-2009, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flaptail

I've been doing the dip and wipe with Slip's touch of using the pipe cleaners soaked in sealer and run thru the thru wire hole. Works fine. Plugs hold up.

Don't over think it G. At this rate you'll drive yourself mad and family relations will suffer the closer we get to plugfest.

I have a great resource for stress management if you feel the need.

I agree about stress management.It can be disheartening though to put so much into the development of a plug to have the finish let go or to have the wood check..I primarily use a thin systems three epoxy on heated wood.I do the same thing with the pipe cleaners to work it in the holes.I love it on red cedar.The softer wood soaks up so much epoxy.It makes it bullet proof.Still without all the weight of a harder wood.It does not work well on hard maple as every darter I have done with it has split.I was told to use the 50/50 formula as it helps promote sealer penetration.

Geo I would think if the plug lost weight when heated in the oven. If you give it time the others will lose weight also.It's pretty dry this time of year. I think a good month and the spirits will totally evaporate.Giving you the desired weight results.I don't think you can/should rush this process.I hate to wait myself.This is why I like epoxy.
I still think spinning em,priming em and painting em with a top coat of some spray clear makes as much sense sometimes.
If they check split or get water logged it's so easy to make another..It was so much more fun to me when I did it like that.
Now it seems I go through all the trouble getting what I want out of design and it sits..I hate the ensuing processes to complete the product.It's very frustrating and I have just about stopped building as I can't seem to make a plug to meet up to my own standards..

G-forbid one of my ill fated creations got into someone else's hands and the finish let go...

numbskull · 01-14-2009, 07:38 AM

Tony, the heating actually drives quite a bit of thick oil out of the plug. That surprised me because I assumed most of the weight would be the mineral spirits (surely some of it is).

With regards to splitting, hardwood plugs split when the INSIDE of the plug gets wet and expands. This tears the drier outside apart. Wood absorbs water (or sealer) primarily through endgrain (where the little tubes that transport water up the tree are open). As people have pointed out, sealing the surface of the plug is less of an issue. Another factor, I believe, may be the grain orientation. If you look at the end grain, the wood will swell parallel to the grain lines, and very little perpendicularly to them. Hence, if the hook holes drill up through the grain lines it exposes more endgrain to absorb water and when the plug expands it will be the sides that bulge out, splitting the plug between the hook holes. I suspect that drilling the hook holes along, rather than across, the grain lines will reduce splitting. We'll see.

As far as sealing is concerned, I like the soaking method better than the applied method since it eliminates missed spots in the hook hole or wire hole. I also worry about this CPES stuff. Epoxy that thin must be pretty volatile and easy to inhale. Many people develop severe allergic skin reactions to epoxy. The same kind of reaction starting in your lungs could be serious and sudden. I'm pretty careless about this stuff, but if using CPES I'd probably wear an organic respirator.

I'm also thinking that this weight gain with sealer may not be all bad. If I time it right, I can bring soft maple up to the weight of hard maple (both end up weighing the same when fully saturated). I think the soft maple is less prone to splitting.

As for the perfectionist stuff. Lots of us suffer from that. Once I saw Paul's plugs I realized I was never going to be that good so I said Fck it and now I'm turning out lots of crap to fish. Feels good.

numbskull · 01-14-2009, 09:35 AM

Here are some pictures of a split darter. Built @ 1986-87. I got lazy about sealing with BLO and thought Krylon spray sealer would do the trick. Note the grain orientation and how the plug split perpendicular to the grain lines. Telling....I think.

Flaptail · 01-14-2009, 10:50 AM

George, why not just screw eye them? Makes things a lot easier and you know full well a properly seated screw eye will hold anything. You could adjust for the weight with thru eye with belly weights and such.

Just a suggestion.

ProfessorM · 01-14-2009, 12:07 PM

I agree with Tony on the heat sealed clear coat. I really like the results in Red and white cedar being they are so soft. Works great and completely dry within a day or two and hard as rock. In AYC I am starting to think it may be over kill, but is a superior finish IMO, just not sure it is worth the effort or necessary with that particular wood being it is pretty hard to begin with. That being said I have had piece's of AYC that are as soft as white cedar too and would benefit from the epoxy seal technique. I usually try to select the heavier and harder AYC stock when I go to buy it.

NIB · 01-14-2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by numbskull

Tony, the heating actually drives quite a bit of thick oil out of the plug. That surprised me because I assumed most of the weight would be the mineral spirits (surely some of it is).

With regards to splitting, hardwood plugs split when the INSIDE of the plug gets wet and expands. This tears the drier outside apart. Wood absorbs water (or sealer) primarily through endgrain (where the little tubes that transport water up the tree are open). As people have pointed out, sealing the surface of the plug is less of an issue. Another factor, I believe, may be the grain orientation. If you look at the end grain, the wood will swell parallel to the grain lines, and very little perpendicularly to them. Hence, if the hook holes drill up through the grain lines it exposes more endgrain to absorb water and when the plug expands it will be the sides that bulge out, splitting the plug between the hook holes. I suspect that drilling the hook holes along, rather than across, the grain lines will reduce splitting. We'll see.

As far as sealing is concerned, I like the soaking method better than the applied method since it eliminates missed spots in the hook hole or wire hole. I also worry about this CPES stuff. Epoxy that thin must be pretty volatile and easy to inhale. Many people develop severe allergic skin reactions to epoxy. The same kind of reaction starting in your lungs could be serious and sudden. I'm pretty careless about this stuff, but if using CPES I'd probably wear an organic respirator.

I'm also thinking that this weight gain with sealer may not be all bad. If I time it right, I can bring soft maple up to the weight of hard maple (both end up weighing the same when fully saturated). I think the soft maple is less prone to splitting.

As for the perfectionist stuff. Lots of us suffer from that. Once I saw Paul's plugs I realized I was never going to be that good so I said Fck it and now I'm turning out lots of crap to fish. Feels good.

If you run into a problem try the thinner concentration.You can leave it in longer I would think.On soaking how long you let em dry.I remember having trouble with 60/40 concentrations bleeding out/through when not dry enough.I live near the beach.Things don't dry well here once the heat goes off.
I always where the respirator made for the specific chemical I might use.I know it may not be protecting me from 100 percent of all the bad stuff.But I try I have seen the results of what could happen.Now if could just quit smoking..As far as being a perfectionist It's just what happens to me.For instance when I wash the car I say only going to waste a 1/2 hr.doing it.Three hrs later I'm putting the wax away.

Diggin Jiggin · 01-14-2009, 01:37 PM

Tony , you should have been a machinests

I think I'm blessed that I'm usually happy with good enough.

I have a bunch of plugs hanging in front of my lathe that inspire me for different reasons. A few are just skinny polaris style poppers I made the first time I used a lathe. These were made from birch dowels, with long screw eyes, belly swivels pinned in with cutoff stainless finish nails, no cupping in the head. Finish was rattle can, top coat was spray on varnish or nothing at all. And the only finish missing is from Blue fish teeth or hook swings.. I think I've had only 1 batch of epoxied plugs hold up as well as simple oil based spray cans with a simple poly urethane top coat. If it wasn't for the yellowing of the poly I'd probably go back to that.

Last year I messed around with hook hangers and fully sealing some plugs, and that seemed to make a difference. I'm going to try and do more of that this year..

ProfessorM · 01-14-2009, 03:02 PM

I agree George if I was going to use that CPES stuff I would definitely use a respirator. The epoxy sealing is probably bad for you too but not an 1/8 as bad as the CPES in smell that's for sure and once dry it has no odor. The CPES seems to stink for days. I remember Eddy sealed some red cedar for me and then sent them thru the mail .I could smell them thru the package 5 feet from the mail box. I am surprised it even went thru the mail in this day and age. BTW I hate being a perfectionist just can't help it, but the stuff I use is not nice at all. I only stress over the ones I give away. I keep the crap for myself and believe me there is plenty of that. Fish don't care anyway. You are too humble G. your plugs are very nice indeed.