No lockdown, no masks, nNo hysteria... NO PROBLEM: Sweden didn't go into a lockdown a

[detbuch]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...cid=uxbndlbing

[Ian]

Your point?
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Ian

Your point?
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Sandbrook's sub-title of the article is " Is this proof we got it all terribly wrong?" Those who wanted to open up the economy were criticized as anti-science or protecting what was left of the "Trump economy." Those who insisted that we must follow the science were positive that the science demanded a lockdown, and still does to a great degree.

Sweden did not destroy its economy, life and living is fairly normal there, and the virus has basically been relegated to a sort of flu while the rest of the world that had draconian and extended lockdowns have shattered economies, and are looking for more lockdowns as the virus surges.

Did we get it wrong? And has our version of "the science" been flawed? And should we be opening up more and locking down, or threatening to, less?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Ian

Your point?
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The point is that covid is a democratic plot to rig the election.

I’d note though that Sweden has a higher covid mortality rate than the US.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

The point is that covid is a democratic plot to rig the election.

I’d note though that Sweden has a higher covid mortality rate than the US.
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yet much lower than our states run by democrat governors...

btw...US deaths/million pop 547

Sweden deaths/million pop 575

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

The point is that covid is a democratic plot to rig the election.

I’d note though that Sweden has a higher covid mortality rate than the US.
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Did you note this from the article: "According to Sebastian Rushworth, an American-born doctor in a Stockholm A&E department, he hasn’t seen a single Covid-19 patient in a month: ‘Basically,’ he writes, ‘Covid is in all practical senses over and done with in Sweden.’ "

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Did you note this from the article: "According to Sebastian Rushworth, an American-born doctor in a Stockholm A&E department, he hasn’t seen a single Covid-19 patient in a month: ‘Basically,’ he writes, ‘Covid is in all practical senses over and done with in Sweden.’ "

And many doctors could say the same in Vermont, just think of it like Tweety does of absentee ballots.
Except in Florida, of course
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

And many doctors could say the same in Vermont,

We don't know that Vermont's lockdown was necessary. We do know that Sweden didn't lock down and got the "same" result you noted as Vermont.

And Vermont didn't need some "national plan" other than what the Federal government already did. It's called federalism. Separation of powers. Limited central government. States having far more power to shape their destiny than you seem to care for.

[Nebe]

No problem? No problem??? How many people died per million ??

I guess deaths related to this are acceptable to conservatives.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

No problem? No problem??? How many people died per million ??

I guess deaths related to this are acceptable to conservatives.
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how you get here for there is amazing...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

how you get here for there is amazing...

lack of thought is how you get there.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

No problem? No problem??? How many people died per million ??

I guess deaths related to this are acceptable to conservatives.
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if the goal is always to eliminate deaths, we’d eliminate the automobile. think how many lives that would save. but we don’t do that. there’s a reason why.

is sweden conservative? is that what you’re suggesting?
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

if the goal is always to eliminate deaths, we’d eliminate the automobile. think how many lives that would save. but we don’t do that. there’s a reason why.

is sweden conservative? is that what you’re suggesting?
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and there is a difference from getting killed in an auto vs getting a virus at Walmart that could be prevented

[scottw]

Originally Posted by PaulS

vs getting a virus at Walmart that could be prevented

you can catch a lotta stuff at Walmart....

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by scottw

you can catch a lotta stuff at Walmart....

Teen pregnancy is at epidemic proportions there.

Don’t drink the water
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

and there is a difference from getting killed in an auto vs getting a virus at Walmart that could be prevented

auto deaths can be eliminated. but we don’t do it. we accept tens of thousands of deaths a year on the roads, as a cost of having a quality of life. true or false?
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

auto deaths can be eliminated. but we don’t do it. we accept tens of thousands of deaths a year on the roads, as a cost of having a quality of life. true or false?
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We do, but there are rules in place to try to limit the deaths - something many states did not do. And if a city tried to limit the deaths by imposing restrictions the Repub. govern. all tried to prevent them bc I guess they don't like local control - hypocrites.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Nebe

No problem? No problem??? How many people died per million ??

I guess deaths related to this are acceptable to conservatives.
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They are a recent poll I posted was over 54% found the deaths from covid as acceptable..

HeLL you can go back to the beginnings of this and find post decrying Obama's deaths for the bird flu. When covid deaths were low. ... as Jim he was was all over that nonsense , no he is changing gears

Pointing out deaths or crime in dem controlled cities is the new mantra. Because crime happens no place else , and definently not were Republicans are in charge


.1 Alaska • Violent crime rate: 885 per 100,000 people 2 . New Mexico

• Violent crime rate: 856.6 per 100,000 people 3 . Tennessee

• Violent crime rate: 623.7 per 100,000 people 4th . Arkansas

• Violent crime rate: 543.6 per 100,000 people and 5th Nevada

• Violent crime rate: 541.1 per 100,000 people

And murder top 5 per 100,000. Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Missouri and Alaska
Damn pesky facts



All this chaos has come under Trump whom they hold responsible for nothing

But it was Obama's fault that police were killed

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

They are a recent poll I posted was over 54% found the deaths from covid as acceptable..

HeLL you can go back to the beginnings of this and find post decrying Obama's deaths for the bird flu. When covid deaths were low. ... as Jim he was was all over that nonsense , no he is changing gears

Pointing out deaths or crime in dem controlled cities is the new mantra. Because crime happens no place else , and definently not were Republicans are in charge


.1 Alaska • Violent crime rate: 885 per 100,000 people 2 . New Mexico

• Violent crime rate: 856.6 per 100,000 people 3 . Tennessee

• Violent crime rate: 623.7 per 100,000 people 4th . Arkansas

• Violent crime rate: 543.6 per 100,000 people and 5th Nevada

• Violent crime rate: 541.1 per 100,000 people

And murder top 5 per 100,000. Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Missouri and Alaska
Damn pesky facts



All this chaos has come under Trump whom the hold responsible for nothing

But it was Obama's fault that police were killed

But they will ingnore the benfits

is there a point here?

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by scottw

is there a point here?

Now playing dumb

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Now playing dumb

nope...it was an honest question

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

As usual you confuse power with leadership.
Just like the weak leader who had to gas people to go make a political statement and demonstrate his power.

I have no idea of what you're talking about. I wasn't referring to either power or leadership.

All is not perfect in Sweden, though I’m surprised that your example of good behavior is a country with national healthcare, a generous safety net to support those who fell ill and guaranteed income. Perhaps that influenced their people to do the voluntary isolation.

Who said it was perfect? Is perfection your measure of success? I don't know what influenced the people. I just posted an article that showed an example of a country handling the virus without a lockdown.

Since you want to slip in other issues than I presented with the article . . . as well as national health care and generous safety net, Sweden is a thriving capitalist country very friendly to business with a corporate tax rate of just over 21% and scheduled to decrease one percent next year.

And its income tax rate is flatter than ours. "Sweden has a large, broad, and flat tax base . . . Sweden takes a bigger slug out of your income and imposes top tax rates at a much lower income than the United States does, and imposes a high value added tax on consumption."

As the Tax Foundation says:

"Scandinavian countries provide a broader scope of public services—such as universal healthcare and higher education—than the United States. However, such programs necessitate higher levels of taxation, which is reflected in Scandinavia’s relatively high tax-to-GDP ratios. Adopting such public services in the United States would naturally require higher levels of taxation. If the U.S. were to raise taxes in a way that mirrors Scandinavian countries, taxes—especially on the middle class—would increase through a new VAT and higher social security contributions and personal income taxes. Business and capital taxes would not necessarily need to be increased if policymakers were following the Scandinavian model. In fact, the corporate income tax rate would decline."

"It is important to note that the Swedish tax system is much more regressive than America’s. To impose policies that “closely resemble” those of Sweden, [we] would have to significantly increase taxes on the middle class, not by purely on raising taxes on the very rich. In essence, under the Swedish system, citizens prepay for health and social services. This is very different from the “free” model of health and social services that AOC and her colleagues’ rhetoric implies."

Swedish’s top epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, said in an interview with Swedish Radio that the country made some mistakes. “If we were to encounter the same illness with the same knowledge that we have today, I think our response would land somewhere in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done,” he said.

Somewhere in the middle would be far less draconian that the lockdowns most countries have imposed.

In any case, the most instructive phase of Sweden’s approach may lie ahead: “It will be interesting to find out whether they can respond now, or whether they’re going to keep going with a strategy that seems like it’s not working,” says Schneider.

I don't know who Schneider is, but the author of the article I posted believes the Swedish strategy is working very well.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

I don't know who Schneider is, but the author of the article I posted believes the Swedish strategy is working very well.

He's not a college history professor and TV personality like Sandbrook
You need to learn that simple anecdotal evidence proves nothing but sounds great when it seems to validate your point.

As far as your claim that VT and Sweden had the same results
Sweden's infection and death rate is far greater than Vermont's
Vermont population is 625K with 1572 infections and 58 deaths
Sweden population is 10.5M with 158K infections and 2600 deaths

Just remember that everyone who comes near Tweety gets tested, but it's nothing to worry about.

[Ian]

Look at the # of people who have gotten Covid in Sweden. Then look at the # in California.
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Ian

Look at the # of people who have gotten Covid in Sweden. Then look at the # in California.
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Your point?

[Ian]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Your point?

You're right, its the same # of people.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

He's not a college history professor and TV personality like Sandbrook

Sandbrook went to Sweden and reported on what he saw. He provided some economic charts which he didn't invent.

If you want to say that a mere history professor cannot truly describe what he sees, that may be more a comment on your narrow minded way of understanding.

You need to learn that simple anecdotal evidence proves nothing but sounds great when it seems to validate your point.

I wasn't trying to prove anything. I don't know the answer as you seem to think you do. The people of Sweden he talked to and observed, if Sandbrook isn't lying, seem to be happy that they didn't have to experience a lockdown.

As far as your claim that VT and Sweden had the same results
Sweden's infection and death rate is far greater than Vermont's
Vermont population is 625K with 1572 infections and 58 deaths
Sweden population is 10.5M with 158K infections and 2600 deaths

I didn't say they had the same results, I said the "same" result you noted--"And many doctors could say the same in Vermont"

Would you like to compare New York's stats to Sweden. Comparing stats might tell a story. If the people of Sweden are happier with their results than we are, that might tell a story.

I honestly don't know. Do you?

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

I didn't say they had the same results, I said the "same" result you noted--"And many doctors could say the same in Vermont"

Would you like to compare New York's stats to Sweden. Comparing stats might tell a story. If the people of Sweden are happier with their results than we are, that might tell a story.

I honestly don't know. Do you?

What I do know is the USA has the highest number of infections and deaths in the world and the CDC, changing its Covid-19 testing guidelines, no longer recommends testing for most people without symptoms, even if they've been in close contact with someone known to have the virus. Many doctors are puzzled by the agency's change.

Tweety: spends 6 months explaining he wants less covid testing so that his numbers look better.

CDC: suddenly changes guidelines to cut back on testing without explanation.

Media: "we have no info about why the CDC would do such a perplexing thing, it is an unknowable mystery".

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

What I do know is the USA has the highest number of infections and deaths in the world and the CDC, changing its Covid-19 testing guidelines, no longer recommends testing for most people without symptoms, even if they've been in close contact with someone known to have the virus. Many doctors are puzzled by the agency's change.

Tweety: spends 6 months explaining he wants less covid testing so that his numbers look better.

CDC: suddenly changes guidelines to cut back on testing without explanation.

Media: "we have no info about why the CDC would do such a perplexing thing, it is an unknowable mystery".

So you shift to your usual change the subject as a means to insert another supposed black mark for Trump. It becomes a futile endeavor to respond to your posts, since the responses just become spring boards for some new attack point for you.

That's a good strategy in war, but a killer of rational conversation.

Very, very often, if we wait a few days, we find that what seemed like a nefarious action, is actually the opposite. Let's wait and see. There is already this response in the Washington Times: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...-not-argue-an/

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

I didn't say they had the same results, I said the "same" result you noted--"And many doctors could say the same in Vermont"

Would you like to compare New York's stats to Sweden. Comparing stats might tell a story. If the people of Sweden are happier with their results than we are, that might tell a story.

I honestly don't know. Do you?

Originally Posted by Pete F.

What I do know is the USA has the highest number of infections and deaths in the world and the CDC, changing its Covid-19 testing guidelines, no longer recommends testing for most people without symptoms, even if they've been in close contact with someone known to have the virus. Many doctors are puzzled by the agency's change.

Tweety: spends 6 months explaining he wants less covid testing so that his numbers look better.

CDC: suddenly changes guidelines to cut back on testing without explanation.

Media: "we have no info about why the CDC would do such a perplexing thing, it is an unknowable mystery".

Originally Posted by detbuch

So you shift to your usual change the subject as a means to insert another supposed black mark for Trump.
Who changed the subject? "Would you like to compare New York's stats to Sweden."
It becomes a futile endeavor to respond to your posts, since the responses just become spring boards for some new attack point for you.

That's a good strategy in war, but a killer of rational conversation.

Very, very often, if we wait a few days, we find that what seemed like a nefarious action, is actually the opposite. Let's wait and see. There is already this response in the Washington Times: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...-not-argue-an/

That's not a response, just confusing baloney without evidence.

Alison Galvani
Director of the Center for Infectious Disease Modeling and Analysis (CIDMA), Burnett and Stender Families' Professor of Epidemiology, Yale University
The CDC just revised their testing guidance to exclude people without symptoms. Our work on the ‘silent’ spread underscores the importance of testing people who have been exposed to #COVID-19 regardless of symptoms. This change in policy will kill.

Meanwhile in places where it is not just the flu, that actually shut down and don't claim they have done a great job while having the worst results in the world.

New covid-19 deaths, yesterday:

Spain: 52
France: 16
Japan: 15
Canada: 7
UK: 16
Germany: 9

United States: 1,290

Population of countries above: 426 million
Population of United States: 328 million