lets talk herring

[thefishingfreak]

ok,, not wanting to start a flame war here.
but anyone else think this total herring ban is gunna work?

lemmie just say a few things first.
there's no herring down south,, the cape,, etc.. right?
up north there's thousands.
i live 1/4 mile from the ***** runs, yes runs, there's more than a few. and i see no shortage of herring what-so-ever.
i'm there, three-four times a day watchin' lookin for the little critters. even down river to the locks,, they come bye the thousands, maybe tens of thousands..
sure,, you go at noon on a bright sunny day they aren't there..but come quiet time it's astounding.
i took over 600 last spring...wait a minute... they were ALL legal.. 25 fish per person, per open day.mon. wed. fri. sat. x2 guys you get the picture..and i know guys {some from this site} who took many more than me..before you go saying i'm a reason for the problem. lemmie say i been going there for 10 years and it's the same thing every year. so,,, our impact has not had an effect on our runs..
they come, they spawn, and they come back like clockwork.
even with some,, uhh,,"non fishermen",,,, taking trashbags/coolers full


how is closing MY run gunna bring back the herring to the cape? or rhode island?

these fish return to the same river to spawn right?

there is no ladder at my run. it fell down some years ago. it's the end of the line..maybe someone could help me/guide me the right button to push to get a ladder put in?


i think? one of the problems down south,, for example,, is they give you something like 11 fish that the warden scoops outta the ladders for you? right?
why take the strong, willing {horney} fish outta the ladders?

lastly,,why not transplant my pregnant fish down south?
trust me it ain't that hard to make baby herring,, anyone with a backyard pond can get herring to re-produce
i released more babys than i took.

i fish live bait. and i'm gunna need a reality check come spring.

[libassboy]

Interesting post Freak, im curious to see the responses.
Id assume that if the numbers of herring go back up, the population would look for other rivers to spawn in, and return to the other native herring rivers along the coast...just as bass did when the population came back.
Here on Long Island ive seen the herring runs before, and it can be an amazing site.

[piemma]

Yeah, we use to have great runs here in RI until the GD Russian factory ships showed up and sucked them all up. Now you are luck if you get 5 or 6 working a run for 3 hours.

[fishsmith]

you could walk on them at times in a few spots I know of on the south shore. Obviously a ban can't hurt the fishes stock, but I hope there are no loopholes where trawlers can legally target the same fish. Only banning we land lubbers from getting our keep aint fair.

[striprman]

They'll be F&$##@N jerks taking them from unpatroled area and be fishing them in undisclosed locations, of this I am sure. What are the fines going to be for illegal posession, have they changed (I thought it was a flat $50 fine)

[tattoobob]

2004 over 5000 went thru the fish ladder in Lawrence
2005 less than 500 went thru.
IMO there is something wrong

[Offshore]

[QUOTE=thefishingfreak]ok,, not wanting to start a flame war here.
but anyone else think this total herring ban is gunna work?

lemmie just say a few things first.
there's no herring down south,, the cape,, etc.. right?
up north there's thousands.
QUOTE]

I don't know where you are getting your information from. I live mid-cape. All of our runs have some fish, but nowhere near what it was a few years ago

Connecticut has closed their runs and, I hear RI is looking to do the same. I just read where NH is in the process of closing theirs' too. Southern Maine rivers have very few fish.

As for enforcement, once a few get caught and fined and word gets out, it should deter the others. Here on the cape, various saltwater clubs have/are adopting runs and will help restore them and patrol them. In my area, the Cape Cod Salties are involved with mid-cape runs.

[thefishingfreak]

[QUOTE=Offshore]

Originally Posted by thefishingfreak

ok,, not wanting to start a flame war here.
but anyone else think this total herring ban is gunna work?

lemmie just say a few things first.
there's no herring down south,, the cape,, etc.. right?
up north there's thousands.
QUOTE]

I don't know where you are getting your information from. I live mid-cape. All of our runs have some fish, but nowhere near what it was a few years ago

Connecticut has closed their runs and, I hear RI is looking to do the same. I just read where NH is in the process of closing theirs' too. Southern Maine rivers have very few fish.

As for enforcement, once a few get caught and fined and word gets out, it should deter the others. Here on the cape, various saltwater clubs have/are adopting runs and will help restore them and patrol them. In my area, the Cape Cod Salties are involved with mid-cape runs.

that was hypathetcal...
i'm saying the main reason for the total ban was "very few" fish down south,, cape,,, etc...
right?

i get my info fom here ,,, myself...
like i said... i'm there all the time,and at more than four runs,, and i never seen anyone counting fish or anyone who could care less but me and fellow fishermen..
that river in lawrence has more herring than one can imagine. but no-ones counting at the right time..trust me there's thousands there too..
my bud gill nets them in NH rivers...lots of them.... legaly.. same thing.. no-ones there to care......

[New_Caster]

I asked this question myself and what I found out is there is a counter at the runs not a person but an optical one that gets the number. I went to 4 runs myself last year I did not take 1 fish just not my type of fishing. and I was white the opposit than you a complete lack of fish in any quantity.

[Vectorfisher]

Who is regulating these Russian ships in our waters taking our fish?

[BigFish]

The runs on the south shore were pretty barren this past spring Mike....Weymouth was horrible, Middleboro was also bad and they are usually so thick in Middleboro you can walk across them for weeks! The Bournedale herring run was terrible.......something has to give Mike and its gotta start somewhere! Seems like you are only thinking of yourself Mike....(don't take that the wrong way)....but in order to improve things all around, everyone has got to co-operate and maybe even suffer a little. My opinion however Mike is that its not the use of the herring by recreational sector that has depleted the stocks.....it is all the damage done by the commercial sector.....like it or not....my opinion is that the commercial sector does most of the damage to any fish stock due to overfishing, pure negligence, gluttony, greed and downright stupidity! So they penalize all for the acts of many! I do not fish live herring...never have so I don't really care one way or the other! Learn to fish those plugs you are making Mike....or build some that are good herring imitators.

[basswipe]

Those Russian ships are supplied by local fisherman.The Russians don't actually do any fishing they just buy and process.The Russians are invited here by the US government.The locals catching the herring are also sibsidized by the government.

[Redsoxticket]

The contribution of just one person will have a impact on the herring population.
Females usually reach 100% maturity by age 5 and produce from 60,000 - 103,000 eggs.
If 300 of 600 herring of fishfreaks take are females that is a large amount even with a 30% mortality.
We should be thankful that at least there is an effort to increase the population.

[shadow]

this is not a new problem.Connecticut's runs have been banned for 4 or 5 years now it's a problem that is speading north it seems.the scary part is ct runs have not improved at all since the bans.Something needs to be done about the manegment of the bait fish.

[slapshot]

It takes 4 years for this years' spawn to mature and return to the rivers to make new spawn. For this reason, I say it will take a minimum of 6 years before any improvements are seen.

[thefishingfreak]

i'm not just thinking about myself here. don't matter,
i could pound sand for the next three years. whats off limits is off limits..
however i think that just shutting everything down and waiting to see what happens is not the way to go.

you want herring down there?
i know a place there will be tons of big fat pregnant females. come the full moon in may.
we try not to take the big fat females. we try to help them up river.
seems they come in first to lay the eggs,, then we'll see the carp come in like hoovers to suck up the eggs. and then the males will come in to fertilize them..
this is just a guess? based on what i see day to day. hour to hour.

i'm no herring expert but like i said,, i use them.
so tracking whear they are,, what there doing at the runs is high on my list. as whell as other guys i know.

if they do come back to the same river to spawn? i would think transporting pre-spawn fish to a certain area could only help.

[Navy Chief]

Maybe someone should do something about the non-native Carp that are s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g the eggs like Hoovers.

[macojoe]

I hate chasing the herrin and paying for the permits!! I have not used them for 3 years now.
I use live scup now, but they were almost as hard to get last summer??

[ZuluHotel]

Interesting post.

I have to admit I understand little about where anadromous herring (as opposed to Atlantic herring) spend their time when they're not in rivers--way offshore, nearshore, along shore. NMFS has repeatly noted there's very little interaction between the mid-water trawlers that target Atlantic herring, and bluebacks or alewives. Then again, observer coverage in the form of qualified fish biologists who can differentiate between Atlantics and bluebacks has been very small percentagewise. It could well be that big numbers of river herring are being sucked up in that fishery.

Then again, it could be the resurgence of our beloved striped bass or not-so-beloved dogfish, at the same time many other historic food sources that diverted attention away from river herring (i.e. mackerel, pogies, etc.) that is putting unbelievable pressure on the bluebacks and alewives. Could be more holdover bass waiting in the river systems, could be pollution, could be upstream obstructions.

Complicated problem. I think increased observer coverage on the mid-water boats would be a good starting point to eliminate or confirm that possibility.

Curious to see what others think.

[MoroneSaxatilis]

Originally Posted by macojoe

I hate chasing the herrin and paying for the permits!! I have not used them for 3 years now.
I use live scup now, but they were almost as hard to get last summer??

Not to mention that they shut down the rec scup, so if you didn't have a comm permit you couldn't even have ONE on board.

[slapshot]

Ahhh, did they shorten your season due to an "overage"?

[MakoMike]

Last year the States of NY,CT,MA & RI were allowed to choose a 4 month scup season starting either May 1st or beginning July 1st . MA opted to start on May 1, RI & NY opted to start on July 1.

[slapshot]

I think we had the late season in CT. I don't remember too well, but I think we started July 1 and went into October.

[squiddler]

1st, the Russian ship was not allowed to fish, only to purchase from our (US) fisherman, so stop right there. 2nd, there are river herring, and sea herring, and both are in huge trouble, no matter what someones eyes might tell them. There are trawlers all over the New England waters, all year round, netting the sea herring by the thousands of pounds, and they dock in local piers, and sell their catch to the highest bidder, just like every other fishery known to American man so to speak. The bulk of herring caught are not used as bait, except in chum and oil as they are a delicate fish and lots of "chuff" by-product comes from the procccesing plants to provide plenty for this purpose. Herring does not freeze all that well, thats why you don't see it in flats like many other bait sized fish are. As to its live bait effectiveness, I don't think anyone will argue that it is a killer bait, but let's explore the ability of the common man to keep herring around, live and kicking, for a cost as well as time effective bait.
The way I see it, it is too difficult to keep more than a few alive unless you have a car large enough and in an area where it will get enough tidal flow to keep them alive, as well as protected to keep critters or fellow man out of them. Not to mention the constant vigil for dead fish, as one will quickly lead to many dead. Enough about my opinions as to its merit as a bait, and back to the basic issue, which is should there be a closing of all runs. Absolutely is the answer. You've had your 5 or 10 year study in the counting of these fish that so many members here seem to deem necessary, not with a man with a clicker, but by optical counters installed in many prominent runs on the eastern seaboard. The numbers are so drastically and dramatically down from their historic past that I find it difficult to believe any well informed person would declare that because there are thousands in an isolated area that the stocks are fine, never mind many other tell tale signs which obviously point to a severly depleted stock.
These river herring in question return every spring to the same general areas off the coast, and then the ancient call to spawn draws them into the river and stream systems of our watershed, but as to whether it is the exact river or stream, no definitive answer is agreed upon by those that study them. However, as witnessed everywhere, fish attempt to get into streams and rivers, long ago closed off by dams or spillways. Take Newport, RI as a prime example. Every so often, herring show directly off 1st beach, and even a few make it into the moat to die. These fish could not have been born in the big pond, as the spawn cycle is roughly a 4-5 year time frame from fry stage. Other rivers reopened after many years to the sea supported herring runs in subsequent years.
This was along time ago though, as the thousands have now turned into hundreds or none at all at even the most prolific herring runs of old. From NY north through the Cape and beyond, the last 4 years have been a severe and steady decline in returning numbers. No returning fish means no new fry in the ponds. That means in 4 years time, poof, gone, bye bye. An immediate shutdown is necessary to determine if the current 1, 2 and 3 year old fry can turn around the depletion that this year(4th) will have produced. Any available adults left to spawn in the next 2-4 years should be allowed to do so without interference from man, as the ospreys, stripers, and other natural predators will pick off quite a few without our help. Can you honestly tell me that a closure would really put that much of a hurt on the recreational fisherman?
Don't think a fishery could crash that quickly? Ask your local Atlantic Salmon what he thinks. Very similar life cycles..........

[squiddler]

Oh, yeah, and Makomike, to REALLY clear things up, they remain on anchor, in the bay. They made them switch from East to West Passage of Narry Bay, but always at anchor, never at dock.

[Nebe]

Squidler.. i couldnt agree more

i havent seen that Russian boat in a year or 2...

[NIB]

U guys make nice martyrs.
Guys have been taking Herring for bait about as long as i been alive.
A rec.herring fishery closer is useless with out a concurrent closer by the comm.s
Another case where the recreational fisherman has to tke the hit because a fishery is being overrun by greedy goverment subsidized commercial fishin fleets.Who basically have no regaurds but the almighty dollar.They have been doin it for yrs.There's a long list of usta be species.Its all about maximum yeild.Good luck tryin to change anything as they are major contributors to a goverment run by greed.Just say goodby an get used to it.
Now I expect some friend of a commercial fisherman will say I don't know what i'm talkin bout or its the seals or somethin.Or I am insensitive to the plight of the romantic art of the fisherman.Ya i cried watchin the perfect storm.Take a look at how successful the commercial ban on netting mullet has been for the state of florida.
The goverment simply stopped dumping money into a tired old american industry an bought em out.Florida went from a dead see to a fishermans dream.I really don't know why we can't do the same.A farmraised fish talapia is quickly becoming one of the worlds favorite.More should be done in this type of fishin or we will soon have nothing left.

[squiddler]

Remember those 3 mile slicks behind the boat out the bay when it was in East Passage? The seals used to pile up on citing rock off Rose Island. Haven't seen them that thick since it left.

Those trawlers are the pariahs of the oceans though.Wish they would make the entire commercial fishery go back to hand gear and vessels under 65 feet. There are enough farm raised fish out there to supply the world's fish needs. With Tilapia now available, which is a 98% vegetarian(that means no fish are killed to feed these fish, unlike other fisheries which kill roughly 3-4 fish to raise 1 adult food fish)
fish, they could use them for fish meal and oil to rear the other more desirable fish. Hell, the Japanese are now farming Mahi-Mahi and pen rearing Bluefin tuna quite successfully, along with zillions of shellfish and shrimp.
A hand gear only i.e rod and reel, hand line, or harpoon only, no nets over 10 feet in diameter, no pots over 5 on trawls, etc. fishery could support many a bayman again and supply the local markets with fresh fish as well as domestic and international trade with gourmet and high end restaraunts. The price would remain at a premium, facilitating a healthier marine economy as well as pay base for the fisherman and their families. It would also create a safer commercial fishery, enabling the entire fleet to fish closer to home and under better weather by relieving the incredible pressure that large scale commercial operations place on the environment. Not to mention our by kill of many fish discarded when non discriminatory practices are prevalent.
If we really want to change for the better, IMHO thats the only way to go. Don't threaten to cut them off entirely, only force them to micro size and change their ways......

[MakoMike]

[QUOTE=squiddler] There are trawlers all over the New England waters, all year round, netting the sea herring by the thousands of pounds, and they dock in local piers, and sell their catch to the highest bidder, just like every other fishery known to American man so to speak. The bulk of herring caught are not used as bait, except in chum and oil as they are a delicate fish and lots of "chuff" by-product comes from the procccesing plants to provide plenty for this purpose. Herring does not freeze all that well, thats why you don't see it in flats like many other bait sized fish are. QUOTE]

When I fished out of Montauk we used to buy frozen flats of sea herring for bait all the time.

[Swimmer]

At least the Vanderhoops on the Vineyard will have herring. Tribal spawning areas like menemsha do not fall under the ban. They'll be going off island every day business as usual selling to all the shops.