Obama seeks common ground?

[Cool Beans]

During his speech he quoted the Quran 3 times and stated he seeked a common ground with muslim countries. Below are quotes from the quran and at the heart of their religion. There is nothing we can do to make them like us, by becoming closer to them we give them an opportunity to follow that last quote from the quran "lay in wait and ambush them". Best thing we can do is leave them alone, but watch them closely and be wary. Obama is well aware of every verse in the quran as he was taught this every day growing up in Indonesia with his fond memories of hearing the morning prayer song over the loudspeakers.

Spence, spin away.... Tell me how we can make them disregard their holiest book, that instructs them to kill us, and somehow make them our friends.

We are heading for a much bigger disaster than 9-11.

18:57. Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never ever be guided.

18:58. Yet, your Lord is the Forgiver, full of mercy. If He called them to account for their deeds, He would annihilate them right there and then. Instead, He gives them a respite until a specific, predetermined time; then they can never escape.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

[spence]

I can't help but note the irony in that you seem to think I'm a partisan kool-aid drinker and yet you post idiotic %$%$%$%$ like this.

Obama's speech was very good, and exactly what was needed.

This isn't rocket science mind you. I'll try to keep this simple...

There are a small number of radicals who are empowerd by a large number of moderates. Our policy over the past 50 years has disenfranchised the moderates and hence empowered the small number of radicals.

Obama is speaking common sense and in doing so aims to divide the moderates from the radicals. This is counter to hypocritical BS spewed by Bush that has done nothing to make Americans more safe and most likely empowered our true enemies.

I think you just can't handle the truth.

-spence

[Cool Beans]

Its very clear that we live in 2 separate Americas.

Comrade Spence, I sincerely hope that one day before the end, you see the light.

Apparently when you voted for change, you knew exactly where this was going and are all for it. I for one will not live in a Socialist Republic. It won't be long before some of the states (most of the midwest and west not counting the coast) decide they have had enough.

Spence Alynski fits you. Good night Comrade, I'm not going to bang my head against the brick wall, trying to explain what America was and should be. You will never ever agree.

[striperman36]

I am with Spence. Bring the moderate majority back and the radicals will lose their base.

Oh and it's Koran not Quran or what it was ya thought it might be when you copied that stuff from some other website

[scottw]

[QUOTE=striperman36;692133]I am with Spence. Bring the moderate majority back and the radicals will lose their base.

HOW???? if the moderates are a majority, according to Spence a huge majority compared to the tiny, tiny intsy wintsy minority of radicals...how is it that the "majority" occupy such a minority position in this culture? is this a marketing or perception problem?...look around the world....have you looked at the constant unrest in Europe??? these countries have bent over backward to be accomodating, tolerant and inviting and continue to be and look at the result...I hold no bias, bigotry or "hate" toward anyone, I'm simply pointing to what is right in front of your eyes....seems to me the moderate majorities around the world have a very difficult time standing up for themselves in any way, are Obama's words going to somehow empower these majorities to sieze control of his...I mean the muslim faith? The judement of the effectiveness of the "speech of the century" will be what, if any CHANGE it produces...history is not in his favor...let's hope it was productive for Israel's sake...

[Cool Beans]

Spence, you are right Obama's speech was very good, he somehow managed to talk out of both sides of his face at the same time. He said what people wanted to hear, somehow thinking they would not see the way he also said what the other guy wants to hear. Does he think Israelis are stupid? They see right through his double speak. He is a very eloquent kiss ass, how can he possibly come through or believe that its all possible. It's ok if everyone has nuclear power, but somehow nobody should have nuclear weapons? You can't have one without the other..

There is no way we can please everyone.
This is 2009 right not 1969? If we believe in peace everyone will treat us peacefully? No they will do what they can to kick our ass.

In a single speech, he claimed to support Israel, while "bitch slapping" them on the settlements, and policies. It will hit the fan relatively soon over there.

I see Obama as a man who wants to cut off our "nuts" and put them on the table for all to see, while greeting everyone with a hug and a bow, somehow believing that mankind will "evolve beyond our desire to hate or harm each other" and magically create a "Star Trek" style utopia, where we do our jobs for the enjoyment and do not require monetary compensation, and we will no longer engage in trivial wars over borders or religion. I say "Bullsh*t".

And the guy at the quickie mart is a Hindu from India, most Arab Muslims would never do service type work for others, so he is perfectly safe.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

Its very clear that we live in 2 separate Americas.

This says it all...no retort necessary.

-spence

[striperman36]

RI and MA?

[spence]

That's the problem with cut 'n paste. As you don't really understand what you're talking about all you can do is resort to name calling.

-spence

[sean curry]

Cool Beans,

What was America? How were we better in the past? Civil rights? Womans rights? Racism? Gay rights? The environment?

I think this is the best America has ever been. Obama gave an outstanding speech, he is a gifted man.

What are people on the right so afraid of? We are the strongest nation state in the history of this world. We have 12 aircraft carriers to project power with. No other nation has them. Our defense budget is bigger than every other country combined.

sean

[RIROCKHOUND]

Dont you understand sean.
they all want us to die.
All of them
no exceptions.

[spence]

Here's a good summary of the speech that highlights how Obama was hard on just about everyone...

I think this may be unprecedented for the most powerful person in the world to speak such truth to a Muslim audience in a significant Islamic country.

Great stuff. Beans, you should take a look a point number 9.

-spence

Hard for Israel: "it is also undeniable that the Palestinian people—Muslims and Christians—have suffered in pursuit of a homeland... They endure the daily humiliations—large and small—that come with occupation. So let there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable. America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own." "The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements," and "Israelis must acknowledge that just as Israel’s right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine’s."

Hard for Hamas: "To play a role in fulfilling Palestinian aspirations, and to unify the Palestinian people, Hamas must put an end to violence, recognize past agreements, and recognize Israel’s right to exist."; Violence of the sort perpetrated by Palestinians against Israelis is "not how moral authority is claimed; that is how it is surrendered."

Hard for #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney: "I have unequivocally prohibited the use of torture by the United States, and I have ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed by early next year."/"No system of government can or should be imposed upon one nation by any other."

Hard for 9/11 Truthers and Muslims Who Think The Jews Did It: "I am aware that some question or justify the events of 9/11. But let us be clear: Al Qaeda killed nearly 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women, and children from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm anybody. And yet Al Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed credit for the attack, and even now states their determination to kill on a massive scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to expand their reach. These are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be dealt with."

Hard for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and other Holocaust Deniers: Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for centuries, and anti-Semitism in Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot, and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed—more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful. Threatening Israel with destruction—or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews—is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve.

Hard for Every Arab Leader: "I do have an unyielding belief that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your mind and have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law and the equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and doesn’t steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose. Those are not just American ideas, they are human rights, and that is why we will support them everywhere."

Hard for Muslims who Reject Religious Pluralism: "Among some Muslims, there is a disturbing tendency to measure one’s own faith by the rejection of another’s. The richness of religious diversity must be upheld—whether it is for Maronites in Lebanon or the Copts in Egypt. And fault lines must be closed among Muslims as well, as the divisions between Sunni and Shia have led to tragic violence, particularly in Iraq."

Hard for Muslims Who Reject Equal Rights for Women: "Our daughters can contribute just as much to society as our sons, and our common prosperity will be advanced by allowing all humanity—men and women—to reach their full potential. I do not believe that women must make the same choices as men in order to be equal, and I respect those women who choose to live their lives in traditional roles. But it should be their choice."

Hard for Anti-Muslim Bigots in America: "Islam has always been a part of America’s story. The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second President John Adams wrote, 'The United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims.' And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, served in government, stood for civil rights, started businesses, taught at our Universities, excelled in our sports arenas, won Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers—Thomas Jefferson—kept in his personal library."

[Cool Beans]

I give up on you guys. Wait until Israel takes action. Obama is isolating them more each day and they "will not go quietly into the night". They will preemptively strike Iran (I'd say withing 6 to 8 months from now). I've talked with a couple Israeli military officers on their reaction to Obama's speech and they were very pissed off. They told me, it may come to a head very soon.

Perhaps, Obama will have us defending our enemy against our "long time friend". (very possible)

So I misspelled Kuran.....
Cut and paste, yes, but thats what I had to do as I didn't write the freaking book. Chapter and verse is there so you can look it up.

Many of you seem to forget the CNN footage of them dancing in the streets after learning of 9-11 (several countries over there Saudi included) or the Saudi housewife that when asked if America deserved the attack, she looked at the camera almost crying and said "Yes! Most definitely!"

Most of them do hate America. I have been to Saudi Arabia (3 times), Dubai (5 times), Jabel Ali (not sure on spelling 4 times), Bahrain (over 10 times), Abu Dabi (3 times) many of the people you meet that treat you nicely there are from India and make up most of the menial work force. When you meet or speak with the locals, even in ports of our allies, you can easily see their disdain for us. It is in their religion and they will not be changed by pretty words.

[spence]

I love how you can lump 1.6 Billion people into a single "them".

You seem to be continuing Bush's black and white approach to this problem. A strategy that has led to significant gains by radical or fundamentalist Muslims in Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, Palestine, Uzbekistan, Iraq and on and on...

The approach you seem to be endorsing has pretty much proven time and time again to be a failure and yet you ridicule what it by most measures a pragmatic strategy based on common sense.

There are 6+ Million Muslims in this country you know. We're not going to have to worry about Beans taking out the guy with the funny hat who runs the gas station by the base are we?

Hint: He's really a Sikh...

-spence

[scottw]

[QUOTE=spence;692211]I love how you can lump 1.6 Billion people into a single "them".

Obama lumped 1.6 billion people into a single THEM.....

Obama said he was seeking "a new beginning between the US and Muslims around the world" -- implying that "Muslims around the world" (including Muslim Americans) represent a monolithic bloc, as Osama bin Laden and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claim.

Is the president unaware that there are 57 countries with Muslim majorities and a further 60 countries where Muslims represent substantial minorities? Trying to press almost a quarter of humanity into a single ghetto based on religious apartheid is the fruit of either woeful ignorance or dangerous provocation.

[scottw]

There are 6+ Million Muslims in this country you know.

-spence[/QUOTE]

Debbie Schlussel cites a reputable survey by Pew that puts the number of Muslims in the US at 1.8 million
FACTCHECK
Obama: U.S. “One of the Largest Muslim Countries.” Not!

By Brooks Jackson ~ June 4th, 2009. Filed under: FactCheck.org, President Obama.
President Barack Obama claimed that the U.S. is “one of the largest Muslim countries in the world” in terms of population. That strains the facts mightily. The U.S. Muslim population probably doesn’t even rank in the top 50.

There’s no hard count of U.S. Muslims. The U.S. Census does not ask about religious affiliation.

At the high end of the estimates, a 2001 study by the Council on American-Islamic Relations, based on interviews with representatives of U.S. mosques, estimated about 2 million Muslims are associated with a mosque. From that, the authors projected: “Estimates of a total Muslim population of 6-7 million in America seem reasonable.”

The Pew Research Center released a study in 2007, calling its methodology “the most comprehensive ever used to study Muslim Americans.” The study was based on a poll of 60,000 respondents. Conclusion:

Pew Research Center, 2007: The total Muslim American population is estimated at 2.35 million, based on data from this survey and available Census Bureau data on immigrants’ nativity and nationality.

An even more recent study released in March of this year, and based on answers from 54,461 respondents, came up with results similar to the Pew study. The American Religious Identification Survey conducted by Connecticut’s Trinity College estimated the adult U.S. Muslim population at 1.35 million, not much different from Pew’s estimate of 1.4 million adult (meaning age 18 or over) Muslims. Both put the adult Muslim population at 0.6 percent of the total U.S. adult population. And that’s the figure currently used by the Central Intelligence Agency in its CIA World Factbook entry on the United States.


this will likely change after the White House and Acorn seize control of the census...

[striperman36]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

Most of them do hate America. I have been to Saudi Arabia (3 times), Dubai (5 times), Jabel Ali (not sure on spelling 4 times), Bahrain (over 10 times), Abu Dabi (3 times) many of the people you meet that treat you nicely there are from India and make up most of the menial work force. When you meet or speak with the locals, even in ports of our allies, you can easily see their disdain for us. It is in their religion and they will not be changed by pretty words.

I've seen this too, I am not sure if it is their religion but there is definitely disdain for the USA and other foreign nationals.

[RIROCKHOUND]

I think you misjudge a simple hug and bow, when there is the US military behind the hug and bow....

I also think you misunderstand treating people w/ respect with kowtowing.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I think you misjudge a simple hug and bow, when there is the US military behind the hug and bow....

I also think you misunderstand treating people w/ respect with kowtowing.

Wait, when Americans go to other countries, we aren't suppose to beat our chest and expect all to yield to our greatness, driven by testosterone and a feeling of superiority?

I'm all for patriotism. But this isn't like when the Yankees come to town and you tell the guy next to you from NYC to eat sh$t and die because he's wearing a Jeter jersey.

It's almost like many people here have the same mentality of Kim Jong-il‎ - "We are the supreme leaders of all. The entire world is against us, when they should be bowing to our might."

[scottw]

where ya been JD?...missed you

D. Barry Rubin had a great take on the Obama's speech...
(don't get crazy w/ the red pen...I'm calling him THE OBAMA from now on)

Barack Obama's speech in Cairo is one of the most bizarre orations ever made by a U.S. president, not a foreign policy statement but rather something invented by Obama, an international campaign speech, as if his main goal was to obtain votes in the next Egyptian primary. (Barry Rubin)

Dr. Barry Rubin, director of the Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA ) Center and editor of the Middle East Review of International Affairs (MERIA) Journal

Here, Obama followed the idea that if you want someone to like you agree with almost everything he says. Obama also gave, albeit with some minor variations, the speech that the leader of a Third World Muslim country might give, justifying it in advance by claiming America is a big Muslim country, after all.

Of course, the speech had tremendous-though temporary-appeal combined with its counterproductive strategic impact. It will make him more popular. It may well make America somewhat less unpopular. But its effect on Middle East issues and U.S. interests is another matter entirely.

The first problem is that Obama said many things factually quite untrue, some ridiculously so. Pages would be required to list all these inaccuracies. The interesting question is whether Obama consciously lied or really believes it. I'd prefer him to be lying, because if he's that ignorant then America and the world is in very deep trouble.

If he really believes Islam's social role is so perfect, radical Islamists are a tiny minority, Palestinians have suffered hugely through no fault of their own, and so on, then he's living in a fantasy world. Unfortunately, we are not. The collision between reality and dream is going to be a terrible one.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

where ya been JD?...missed you

Week-long fishing vacation down the Cape. I'm not so crabby any more.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Week-long fishing vacation down the Cape. I'm not so crabby any more.

nice! hope you scored big...and had fun...

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Wait, when Americans go to other countries, we aren't suppose to beat our chest and expect all to yield to our greatness, driven by testosterone and a feeling of superiority?

I'm all for patriotism. But this isn't like when the Yankees come to town and you tell the guy next to you from NYC to eat sh$t and die because he's wearing a Jeter jersey.

It's almost like many people here have the same mentality of Kim Jong-il‎ - "We are the supreme leaders of all. The entire world is against us, when they should be bowing to our might."

You are taking an extreme position here JD. I don't think anyone should be apologizing for what the US has done in Iraq. We have lost lives to free a country from a brutal dictator. Something to be proud of. Our men and women are doing the right thing over their.

We do more for the world then anyone. If we have to remind the world of the sacrifices that were made then I see know problem with it. What if the US just ignored what went on beyond our borders. Not the utopia of a world that you envision. Like it or not, the world needs a strong US.

Your Yankee anology was pathetic in how it lacks respect for what the USA has done.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

You are taking an extreme position here JD. I don't think anyone should be apologizing for what the US has done in Iraq. We have lost lives to free a country from a brutal dictator. Something to be proud of. Our men and women are doing the right thing over their.

We do more for the world then anyone. If we have to remind the world of the sacrifices that were made then I see know problem with it. What if the US just ignored what went on beyond our borders. Not the utopia of a world that you envision. Like it or not, the world needs a strong US.

Your Yankee anology was pathetic in how it lacks respect for what the USA has done.

The flaw in your entire post is your opinion that the US needs to be the world's police force. I disagree. I don't want my money going to rebuild other countries when the one I live in is far from perfect - with kids not having food on the table, veterans living on the streets, Mexican cartels ruining the South-west, etc.

Yes, we've lost a lot of lives "liberating" the Iraqi people. However, I'm willing to bet more Iraqi people have died since the US invasion than under Saddam's dictatorship.

I don't have some delusional opinion that the world is an utopia. But you seem to be under the insane opinion that through war, the US can make the world one.

My Yankee analogy personifies half your posts about how Obama doesn't have enough balls when he goes over there and how the world should bow to the American President like he's some Supreme leader of the world.

You're out of your mind.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

The flaw in your entire post is your opinion that the US needs to be the world's police force. I disagree. I don't want my money going to rebuild other countries when the one I live in is far from perfect - with kids not having food on the table, veterans living on the streets, Mexican cartels ruining the South-west, etc.

Yes, we've lost a lot of lives "liberating" the Iraqi people. However, I'm willing to bet more Iraqi people have died since the US invasion than under Saddam's dictatorship.

I don't have some delusional opinion that the world is an utopia. But you seem to be under the insane opinion that through war, the US can make the world one.

My Yankee analogy personifies half your posts about how Obama doesn't have enough balls when he goes over there and how the world should bow to the American President like he's some Supreme leader of the world.

You're out of your mind.

What is lost to you is that the national security of this country is dependent on all the international good will and "police work" we do. To think otherwise is living with your head in the sand. You are the one that has lost touch with reality my friend. Millions were killed under Saddam. don't recall anyone saying "through war you can make the world one" Nice try JD

It doesn't take balls to speak the truth. It takes balls to lie through your teeth. Obama has huge balls.

[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by buckman

You are taking an extreme position here JD. I don't think anyone should be apologizing for what the US has done in Iraq. We have lost lives to free a country from a brutal dictator. Something to be proud of. Our men and women are doing the right thing over their.

We do more for the world then anyone. If we have to remind the world of the sacrifices that were made then I see know problem with it. What if the US just ignored what went on beyond our borders. Not the utopia of a world that you envision. Like it or not, the world needs a strong US.

Your Yankee anology was pathetic in how it lacks respect for what the USA has done.

Mega Extreme Right Wing "DITTOS" I've said about all I am going to on this, as some of these guys will never see the light. Obama shows utter disrespect for those of us serving in the military or have served in the military. Its simply amazing how he can speak out of both sides of his ass, and people only hear the bits and pieces they want.

Same as you, I heard things I agreed with, but then went apoplectic over some other things he said. But I can see the truth, he is talking both sides, counting on peoples stupidity that they will walk away remembering only the parts they liked.


I'm spending the weekend on the water and away from this section until monday as I seem to be getting angry a little too easy at the left these days.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

You are taking an extreme position here JD. I don't think anyone should be apologizing for what the US has done in Iraq. We have lost lives to free a country from a brutal dictator. Something to be proud of. Our men and women are doing the right thing over their.

More than lost lives, we're going to spend nearly two trillion dollars in the process, nearly ZERO of which is going to benefit the American Taxpayer directly.

The policy that got us into Iraq was reckless at best and dishonest at worst. The tens of millions of people who we have directly impacted feel slighted at best and are responding with violence at worst.

To write off any criticism of CIVILIAN policy as disrespecting a MILITARY organization that takes its orders from said civilian leadership is ANTI-MILITARY to the core as it's placing responsibility for those orders on the troops themselves.

Not the utopia of a world that you envision. Like it or not, the world needs a strong US.

This is the basis for the neocon argument that infected US policy under Bush 43. The world "needs" us to lead them.

Man, that's some arrogant %$%$%$%$. In a world where 19 guys with box cutters can kill nearly 3 thousand people, one might think a little humility is in order.

Or, we could just work to piss everybody off and claim superiority. Yes, that's a recipe for success...

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

More than lost lives, we're going to spend nearly two trillion dollars in the process, nearly ZERO of which is going to benefit the American Taxpayer directly. I think the American taxpayers have grown used to having their money taken and receiving no benefit...

The policy that got us into Iraq was reckless at best and dishonest at worst. The tens of millions of people who we have directly impacted feel slighted at best and are responding with violence at worst. and some really appreciate our efforts, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan...wow...you know if you really think about it, we've liberated a ton of people in the last hundred years, just goes to show you that people don't really appreciate you enough... till you're gone...and we're going...going...ggggg


To write off any criticism of CIVILIAN policy as disrespecting a MILITARY organization that takes its orders from said civilian leadership is ANTI-MILITARY to the core as it's placing responsibility for those orders on the troops themselves.this is jibberish, it's Friday, have you begun drinking?


This is the basis for the neocon argument that infected US policy under Bush 43. The world "needs" us to lead them."neocon" is a racial slur

Man, that's some arrogant %$%$%$%$. In a world where 19 guys with box cutters can kill nearly 3 thousand people, one might think a little humility is in order. this sounds exactly like something Osama Bin Laden (oops, I almost said Osama Obama) would say, or have said

Or, we could just work to piss everybody off and claim superiority. Yes, that's a recipe for success...stop all foreign aid, that ought to piss em' off, and let em' fight their own battles too!

-spence

go fishing Spence!

[buckman]

I'm not sure what to think of Obamas speach. I had moments of agreement along with moments of " this is friggen crazy talk". Kind of they way I feel about everything he does. In the end what he says is not what he does anyways.

Question? Off topic but, Now that we have a Car Czar can we all agree that the US " is" in the car business. I'm not sure if some of you are in denial and don't want to admit that some of us have been right all along or if a socialist, ass kissing country is what you wanted all along.

And FYI, a weaker, kinder more gentle America is not going to keep you safe. The people that want to kill you and your kids will pounce on us. They were laughing at Obama yesterday.He empowered them with his speach. Reality is calling.

[scottw]

[QUOTE=buckman;692242]

Question? Off topic but, Now that we have a Car Czar can we all agree that the US " is" in the car business.

and a new PAY Czar....