New On The Water tournament rules

[nightfighter]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Separate shore/boat divisions makes all the sense in the world. As Chris said, all it requires is having some trophy company make a duplicate Cup that says "Winning Shore Club". It doesn't devalue the two Cups already awarded. If you want to fish both, an extra $25 won't break anyone. Many people enter both the All-Tackle and Fly Rod divisions of the MV Derby.

They want to make it just like the Schaeffer Cup, but it's already been tweaked so that it bears little resemblance.

From the OTW rules;
All entrants must register in either the BOAT, SHORE or YOUTH division when signing up for the tournament. For the duration of the tournament, an entrant can only weigh in fish for the division in which he/she is registered.

I think this precludes an angler from participating in both divisions...

[NIB]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

The sox don't need a handicap.They win like real men.

Ya but take the filming away from the Pats an how did they do...
Thats right 18-1

[NIB]

Originally Posted by Back Beach

Personally, I think the tourney is just about right as it stands now. With the surf conversion lowered to 1.2, it levels the field pretty closely IMO.
OTW has been pretty diligent in terms of assessing the competition and making needed adjustments based on the data generated from the tourney. Remember, the tourney has only been in existence for two seasons and is continually being evaluated and tweaked for the better. OTW does listen and respond to the concerns of the participants. You can’t expect them to turn this thing on its head and start from scratch each season. My feeling is with time the necessary adjustments will be made based on the data, which will result in a level competitive platform for anyone who enters.
For the people who are questioning the system’s fairness, it’s really a fun tournament as far as the team totals go and anything can happen on a given year, particularly from the surf. Look at S-B’s first two years if you need any further proof. The boat heavy teams will consistently produce the biggest poundage each season, while surf heavy teams results will be lumpier.
Eliminating yo-yo ing is merely a conservation minded gesture. Its not going to reduce any team's abillity to produce poundage IMO.

Most sensible post in this thread..
Must be the golfer in him..
Question,, where u in the contest the last 2 yrs..??
Last yr I had my own personal numbers restictions.I killed enough bass in my lifetime. I wanted to give some of em a break.So instead of killing 2 per day as the law allows.I only kept one good one an let the others go.Last yr, 4 of my 5-30 lb fish could have been upgraded a few lbs at least..
In the past 2 yrs I have 9-30 lb pins.
For what...that is the real question..
I was gonna stay out of it last yr an the Jersey team got me to enter.
I'm gonna take a long hard look at joining again this yr.I might join for the crack at a VS monthly prize but I doubt I will kill any more fish for the sake of the striper cup thing.Yes IMO,a striper is worth a 700 dollar reel..
I think they do a nice job an all.I just like to think this is my natural progression as a sportsman..I really don't feel I need to do it anymore.
Good Luck to all that do enter...I hope u find what Ur looking for..

[Skitterpop]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

From the OTW rules;
All entrants must register in either the BOAT, SHORE or YOUTH division when signing up for the tournament. For the duration of the tournament, an entrant can only weigh in fish for the division in which he/she is registered.

I think this precludes an angler from participating in both divisions...

Won`t stop boat caught claimed as surf

[Sea Dangles]

[QUOTE=Back Beach;
Eliminating yo-yo ing is merely a conservation minded gesture. Its not going to reduce any team's abillity to produce poundage IMO.[/QUOTE]

Mike, eels were almost put on the endangered species list.If they had been,I am sure it would not reduce your ability to produce poundage either right?

[BassDawg]

Soooooooooooo

Does that mean that my, hypothetical, 35# Shore Division Striper
becomes a 42# Striper ? For the Tourney Poundage Totals, only right?

Wouldn't change things as i like the idea of going for one CUP, winner take all. Team and idividual awards are fine just the way they are, but I would extend the deadline until Oct, or Nov.

I also like the separate divisions and making us declare either/or to encourage fair and reasonable competition between the divisions; as we all know that Boat feesh doan count/are one helluvalot easier to land and stay on LAAAAHGE with the aid of electronics, fiberglass, twin mercs, and the added leverage that the boat provides. Not trying to stir the pot, merely stating why I agree that a handicap is necessary and equitable.

I also think that the Pounder Pins for C&R are a nice touch to encourage and promote those of us who agree with NIB's Philosophy. I, too, am debating whether or not i want to kill more feesh; however the shot at excellent gear AND a Toyota Tundra within the fishery mngmt regulations is both exciting during the competition and spiking to the adrenylin factor as the deadline approaches. I know that it gave me some extra ooomph as Sept rolled around last year .

GREAT Tournament!! GREAT Fishing!!
GO S-B..................GO S-B!!! Back to Back, Gentlemen??

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Mike, eels were almost put on the endangered species list.If they had been,I am sure it would not reduce your ability to produce poundage either right?

No eels would alter my approach from a surf fishing point of view without question.
IMO, it’s easier to circumvent obstacles when boat fishing than surf fishing. My point is, they could ban the yo yo technique, but there are still a number of good ways to fish bunker besides the yo yo rig.
The only other suggestion I have for leveling the field would be to limit the team entries to one fish per angler versus the two they allowed last year. The downside to this is obviously that some teams don't have ten members.

[Sea Dangles]

Troll it. Three way it. Chunk it.Fish it live.But if you are in fast moving water with a lot of structure and the fish are down 25' or more what is the best way to present the bait?Anyway,it's off topic now and I certainly don't expect OTW to change so I guess we will find a way to make due.The yo-yo thing doesn't bother me as much as the way the tournament is formatted but I doubt it will prevent participation. Rant over.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

From the OTW rules;
All entrants must register in either the BOAT, SHORE or YOUTH division when signing up for the tournament. For the duration of the tournament, an entrant can only weigh in fish for the division in which he/she is registered.

I think this precludes an angler from participating in both divisions...

Ross, I realize that those are the present rules. I was proposing letting people enter both if they set up separate shore and boat divisions. Trying to tweak a "handicap" to balance the scale is just an exercise in futility, IMO. The perfect tournament hasn't been invented yet. You'll always be able to look at any set of rules and say, "I think that XXXX would be better". Except that OTW is tinkering with it trying to get that elusive "perfection". This is the third year of OTW and the third year they've had entirely different rules. Most people feel that separate boat and shore divisions would have been the right way to go from the start. That would eliminate trying to calculate what a fair handicap for shorebound anglers would be. Even though sb-com benefitted from it, saying that a shore caught fish is worth 30% more weight than a boat fish is ridiculous.

Up until 1984, the MV Derby didn't have boat and shore divisions for bass, and if you look at the history, shore guys won as often, if not more often, than boaters. Guys like #^&#^&#^&#^& Hathaway, Ralph Grant, Stevie Morris, and the Mad Russian, DeSomov, were surfcasters.

[nightfighter]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Ross, I realize that those are the present rules. I was proposing letting people enter both if they set up separate shore and boat divisions. Trying to tweak a "handicap" to balance the scale is just an exercise in futility, IMO. The perfect tournament hasn't been invented yet. You'll always be able to look at any set of rules and say, "I think that XXXX would be better". Except that OTW is tinkering with it trying to get that elusive "perfection". This is the third year of OTW and the third year they've had entirely different rules. Most people feel that separate boat and shore divisions would have been the right way to go from the start. That would eliminate trying to calculate what a fair handicap for shorebound anglers would be. Even though sb-com benefitted from it, saying that a shore caught fish is worth 30% more weight than a boat fish is ridiculous.

Up until 1984, the MV Derby didn't have boat and shore divisions for bass, and if you look at the history, shore guys won as often, if not more often, than boaters. Guys like #^&#^&#^&#^& Hathaway, Ralph Grant, Stevie Morris, and the Mad Russian, DeSomov, were surfcasters.

Then I misunderstood you, Mike, and stand corrected. I had thought you meant that an angler could enter in both divisions. Your proposal of allowing this, is a good one.

Under the current system, I will be entering as a boat angler. In the event that I get a worthy fish from the surf, I will have to enter it as a boat fish......

[Saltheart]

If you are entered as a boat guy , you can't even enter a shore caught fish at all can you?
Anyway , I think OTW is doing a good job and letting it evolve. I think they made good progress and ran a good tournament the first two years.

[Back Beach]

I still disagree with the point some of you are making. There are separate boat and surf categories, are there not?
Prizes are awarded for each division by week, month, and angler of the year for both surf and boat.
Correct me, but it sounds like you guys are contesting the fairness of the team totals, which I think are very fair. You do need some kind of shore/boat handicap. Remember each year pans out differently too with regard to what's available and which club benefits the most. The so called "best" club won't win every year due to changes in fish availability in their waters. With the exception of S-B, most of the clubs range is very small, thus opportunties they have depend on what's available in their local waters.

With either case the losers will always cry foul and say it wasn't fair, which is B.S. to me. Get in there and fight for the cup for god's sake!

Its not supposed to be easy.

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Back Beach

I still disagree with the point some of you are making. There are separate boat and surf categories, are there not?
Prizes are awarded for each division by week, month, and angler of the year for both surf and boat.
Correct me, but it sounds like you guys are contesting the fairness of the team totals, which I think are very fair. You do need some kind of shore/boat handicap. Remember each year pans out differently too with regard to what's available and which club benefits the most. The so called "best" club won't win every year due to changes in fish availability in their waters. With the exception of S-B, most of the clubs range is very small, thus opportunties they have depend on what's available in their local waters.

With either case the losers will always cry foul and say it wasn't fair, which is B.S. to me. Get in there and fight for the cup for god's sake!

Its not supposed to be easy.

Mike,I don't see where anyone is claiming they want it to be easier.This isn't sour grapes, rather a thread you chose to participate in discussing the rule changes for the UPCOMING Cup.There is no easy answer here.Like you say,certain teams have inherent advantages due to the number of anglers as well as being more spread out. Nothing wrong with this type of advantage IMO.Maybe proposing 5 boat fish and 5 surf fish per team would be fair.Who knows?Maybe paying a registration fee and using the honor system as to whether it was boat or surf caught would be a more adult way to operate. Perhaps introducing a Ladies division for adult and junior anglers may be a progressive idea.I think you are correct to an extent;no matter what the handicap index is someone will gripe.I don't remember the numbers but I think by August 1st last year S-B had around 490 pounds using the handicap system.That is 10 ,49 pound fish.Tournament was over already.I can certainly see why you would consider it to be very fair.Each year the bait and migratory habits of the fish will change thus giving a certain division a competetive edge which will result in the index being called into question.Of course there are separate categories for the prizes as you state and this is solely to accomadate the sponsors.However I can't think of a single legitimate reason for combining the two categories for the Cup.If there are other fishing (not golf)tournaments presently run using the handicap system please enlighten me.BTW, my numbers from shore last year dwarfed my boat numbers.Thanks in part to you.

[The Dad Fisherman]

The way I see it is On the Water Runs a Tournament. They set the Rules. When you sign up you agree to abide by those rules......It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that you will abide by them and then piss and moan about them when the tourney ends.

I give them credit for at least listening to you and trying to change the rules the following year to make people happy.

Bottom line is if you don't like the rules for that year.....don't send in your registration fee. And if you do register you play by their rules and smile the whole time and say Thanx for putting this together for us. (see I'm Smiling)

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

August 1st last year S-B had around 490 pounds using the handicap system.That is 10 ,49 pound fish.Tournament was over already.I can certainly see why you would consider it to be very fair.

Chris,

The 1.3 for a surf fish is way too much IMO. Maybe I didn't clearly state that. The 1.2, perhaps even 1.15 would be better, which it looks like they are doing for 2008. I am in total agreement with lowering the ratio. In 2006 it was lopsided in favor of the boat clubs due to no conversion ratio for the surf guys.
As far as combining surf and boat for the teams, it makes perfect sense to me to do that becuase its just the cup. No big prizes awarded, its for fun, and many clubs feature both surf and boat anglers. They should be able to compete together. Utilizing a handicap is the most effective way to allow this to happen. Its like an ABCD golf tournament. The handicap comes into play as it allows participants from different capabilities to play together on an even field.
Can't wait for the next installment of those jamaican jerk chicken wings. I'm up every night thinking about them.

[snake slinger]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

The way I see it is On the Water Runs a Tournament. They set the Rules. When you sign up you agree to abide by those rules......It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that you will abide by them and then piss and moan about them when the tourney ends.

I give them credit for at least listening to you and trying to change the rules the following year to make people happy.

Bottom line is if you don't like the rules for that year.....don't send in your registration fee. And if you do register you play by their rules and smile the whole time and say Thanx for putting this together for us. (see I'm Smiling)

exactly

[inTHERAPY]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

The way I see it is On the Water Runs a Tournament. They set the Rules. When you sign up you agree to abide by those rules......It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that you will abide by them and then piss and moan about them when the tourney ends.

I give them credit for at least listening to you and trying to change the rules the following year to make people happy.

Bottom line is if you don't like the rules for that year.....don't send in your registration fee. And if you do register you play by their rules and smile the whole time and say Thanx for putting this together for us. (see I'm Smiling)

words of wisdom from dad

[Sea Dangles]

I agree also.I actually considered this to be an intelligent discussion.Perhaps discussions like this may have influenced the rules changes in the past.The same may happen moving forward.

[bobber]

Last yr I had my own personal numbers restictions.I killed enough bass in my lifetime. I wanted to give some of em a break.So instead of killing 2 per day as the law allows.I only kept one good one an let the others go.Last yr, 4 of my 5-30 lb fish could have been upgraded a few lbs at least..
In the past 2 yrs I have 9-30 lb pins.
For what...that is the real question..

now thats the most sensible statement I've heard outta any of US in a long time....

in other words-
if it wasn't for this tournament, would you be killing all those fish??

I don't wanna get down on people for how/why they choose to fish in the tourny, just think we should all take a good look at whether or not its worth killing all the "best fish" we catch during the season?? would you kill 'em if you weren't entered???

think about it..................

[Ake G]

No Offense to anyone from this board who I know or those of you that enjoy participating but....Screw "On The Water" and their kill fish for profit, hypocritical tournament!

Or maybe they're not hypocritical...Do they? Or have they ever encouraged conservation of the resource? I don't know....

[keeperreaper]

Originally Posted by Ake G

Do they? Or have they ever encouraged conservation of the resource?

I'm pretty sure that is why they give out catch and release pins to encourage conservation of the resource.

Like someone above stated it is a "fun" tournament. I dont necessarily like the tourney set-up in its entirety but they dont force me to enter it either. Thats obligatory on my part.

[TheSpecialist]

The reason that there are not 2 trophies is that many teams have people that boat fish , and shore fish. Msba I am sure is one of them. You will never make everyone happy, only pacify some.