Phelps

[BigFish]

You say tomato....I say tomatoe. I understand your inference but I disagree...respectfully.

[spence]

Sounds like denial you know, a sure sign of addiction.

-spence

[BigFish]

Originally Posted by spence

What is a drug?

-spence

A drug is illegal. That is where my line of thought is drawn. Had alcohol been illegal when I turned 18.....then I doubt I would have had it.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Yeah ok I agree with him then! Pot is a gateway drug....ever know anyone that started with heroin??

Numerous studies have show this to be completely false. Nothing more than government propaganda and mis-information created by a government on a failed War on Drugs campaign. (My favorite has always been "Smoking one marijuana joint is the same as smoking 10 cigarettes." Really, how?)

I don't know anyone that "started with heroin" but I do know of quite a few that started with either coke, meth or crack.

BigFish, while I admire your straightedgedness... I'd be willing to put money down that you are in the minority - in terms of people that have/have not tried.

[spence]

Originally Posted by BigFish

A drug is illegal. That is where my line of thought is drawn. Had alcohol been illegal when I turned 18.....then I doubt I would have had it.

So the Vocodin I took quite legally in December wasn't a drug?

Sure felt like one

-spence

[ecduzitgood]

The only positive affect alcohol had on my life

the scar in the middle of my palm where the bottle I broke cut the tendon......guess which finger dosen't bend now? Lets just say it comes in handy.

[BigFish]

Spence twisting the facts....not talking about medication or prescribed drugs/narcotics Spence. Cocaine, Heroin, Crack, Pot, oh....and don't give me the "pot is a prescribed drug in the treatment of cancer" crap Spence......you know what I am talking about.....I think you are smarter than that. I have never used drugs recreationally Spence.

[justplugit]

I agree, pot is a gateway drug to other illegal drugs, but imho the biggest gateway, that starts it ,depends on who your friends are.

I don't know any kid who the first time they drank or did drugs did it alone.

It starts with someone in a group saying let's do it and then the peer pressure kicks in and suddenly it's , "aren't we so cool, i must be cool too."

Birds of a feather.

[joe the plumber]

I've got to chime in on this one.Pot can be a gateway drug to the right individual.Alcohol can be a gateway drug to the right individual.
Here is my take on it.In my 48 years,I've seen some people who drink,kick the tar out of thier wives,and lose thier homes,and if that is not tragic enough,lose thier lives.I've never seen such behavior with people who I know smoke pot.My 2 cents.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by joe the plumber

I've got to chime in on this one.Pot can be a gateway drug to the right individual.Alcohol can be a gateway drug to the right individual.
Here is my take on it.In my 48 years,I've seen some people who drink,kick the tar out of thier wives,and lose thier homes,and if that is not tragic enough,lose thier lives.I've never seen such behavior with people who I know smoke pot.My 2 cents.

That may be Joe, but the tragic part of pot and drugs imo is the scum bag sellers it supports. Not good people, many people killed and lives ruined because of them.

In my years, many working with teenagers, I've seen many families and lives destroyed from pot. Families in crisis for years. Impaired thinking keeps them from facing ordinary problems keeping them stuck in immaturity.

One of the first signs is sliding marks in school and that means not living up to potential. I've seen a suicide and psychotic episodes from kids smoking pot from bongs laced with other drugs
Your rolling the dice whenever you take a mind altering drug.

[ecduzitgood]

Someone should make a list of roll models (good or bad) for both pot and alcohol.......I'll start: Ted Kennedy

[spence]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Spence twisting the facts....not talking about medication or prescribed drugs/narcotics Spence. Cocaine, Heroin, Crack, Pot, oh....and don't give me the "pot is a prescribed drug in the treatment of cancer" crap Spence......you know what I am talking about.....I think you are smarter than that. I have never used drugs recreationally Spence.

I can't fathom how you don't think alcohol isn't a drug.

-spence

[JohnnyD]

Correlation does not imply causation.

Just because someone smokes crack now and smoked pot before, doesn't mean the pot was the doormat welcoming them to a life of addiction. Not to mention pot does not have any chemically addictive properties.

Again, numerous studies have show that marijuana is *not* a gateway drug. Here's just one study:
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/study...rug-12116.html
"This evidence supports what’s known as the common liability model, an emerging theory that states the likelihood that someone will transition to the use of illegal drugs is determined not by the preceding use of a particular drug but instead by the user’s individual tendencies and environmental circumstances."

[joe the plumber]

[QUOTE=justplugit;66225

In my years, many working with teenagers, I've seen many families and lives destroyed from pot. Families in crisis for years. Impaired thinking keeps them from facing ordinary problems keeping them stuck in immaturity.

[/QUOTE]

I am SUPPOSED to be working.I take a break,check into S/B,and well,here I am.I do love this site....When I love this site........
I want to respond to justplugit.You have spoken like a man who has seen this and I believe what you have seen and respect your opinion. Thanks for pointing this out.I still think pot is alot less harmfull than booze.Just my own personal observations.
To Karl F,you took the words out of my mouth about Phelps.I too hope he grows and learns from his experience.

[Slingah]

that poor kid...bad judgement is all...I agree most with everything said here, it is all bad if abused..
from my own personal using it started with butts then booze then weed....then everything else, Ive tried and abused most everything except smack
What I will say is... for ME...weed has to be at the bottom of the list as far as being harmful...not to say it isnt though....and booze being by far the worst..it has ruined and killed alot of lives and people close to me..
maybe the kid has a problem...maybe not...he's still a damn good athlete....the best ever...

[Raven]

if his face is on the cereal box i'm not eating it

[BigFish]

Dave your right...peer pressure! None of the folks I hung out with were into any of it! That always helps! Spence...its why alcohol is called alcohol and drugs are commonly known as well....drugs! They are two different things. remember....we can disagree and often do. You have the way you look at things and I have the way I look at things.

[FishnGrega]

now I for one used to smoke back when I was 18, now that I'm almost 26 I haven't had the urge to pick it up again. I wasn't a pot head I only did it once in a while mainly just on weekends. I used to be all about legalizing pot, until i started thinking about the consequenses. Here's one for you guys who think it should be legal... how can you test for it if you get pulled over and your stoned out of your mind??? Alcohol has its tests pot only has a piss/hair test but that doesnt tell you how much you've had smoked...
so that you legalize it right. you get in your car blazed out of your mind smoking it up with your buddies as you go for a bone cruise, blasting tunes, and passing that fattie around. You go reach for the blunt from your buddy in back, then you hit and kill a person/ or a even worse a kid. the cops show up to the scene and notice that you are under the influence of a controlled substance. But can not charge you because there is no test for marajuana. Sure you'll be arrested for involentary manslaughter, and under the influence of a controlled substance. you go to court get a slap on the wrist maybe serve a year or less in prison because you get out on "good behavior".

But the drunk who gets behind the wheel and does the same thing. Is charged with manslaughter loses his license, goes to counceling, and serve a sentence behind bars.

Sounds like a good idea of legalizing it doesn't it?

I also drink and I wouldn't call Alcohol a gateway anything. Its all about peer pressure, and confidence in saying no thanks.

[Raider Ronnie]

Like I said
Society is in the %$%$%$%$ter !!!
Can't turn on the tv without a "Male enhancement" commercial or a girl with her tits 1/2 hanging out !, or profanity on just about everything !
Sucks trying to raise kids and not deal with these issues everyday !
And for those here who think kids aren't influenced by these guys like Phelps, you have no idea what you are talking about and most likely don't have young kids !
As for the heroin comment, guarantee the way pot is so accepted as not big deal with some of you, not too many years from now heroin or some other drug will be the same story !

[Joe]

With Phelps' outrageous lung capacity, he probably bogarted down the guy's whole stash in one huff. I think the real lesson here is to never to share a bowl with an aqua-lung pituitary case.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

Like I said
Society is in the %$%$%$%$ter !!!
Can't turn on the tv without a "Male enhancement" commercial or a girl with her tits 1/2 hanging out !, or profanity on just about everything !
Sucks trying to raise kids and not deal with these issues everyday !
And for those here who think kids aren't influenced by these guys like Phelps, you have no idea what you are talking about and most likely don't have young kids !
As for the heroin comment, guarantee the way pot is so accepted as not big deal with some of you, not too many years from now heroin or some other drug will be the same story !

Your right Ronnie it is becoming a society of "anything goes"and "what the hell, just let e'm go."

Imho, i believe the most important job a father has is not only to provide for, but to bring his children up to become good solid citizens that live up to their full potential.
Like Karl said, you have to be the role model for them and from what i have seen from your posts, you are a good one.

Living in a morally bankrupt society makes it very difficult.

[Clogston29]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

As for the heroin comment, guarantee the way pot is so accepted as not big deal with some of you, not too many years from now heroin or some other drug will be the same story !

there is a huge difference between the two. and to compare the two just shows ignorance on the topic. for one thing, a heroin overdose will kill you. find me one person who died as a direct result of smoking weed (not including allergies, etc. since peanuts can and do kill some people). and don't point to pestacides and addatives, because those all go away if its legal and regulated by the FDA (or at least we'd like to hope).

remember, cocaine was no big deal for a long time and tons of people were doing it. then people learned it can kill you (len bias) and now it is considered a big deal.

weed = alcohol that somebody decided was illegal IMO. both have been around forever and their effects are pretty well known. being illegal in my mind doesn't make something wrong or immoral.

[cheferson]

Originally Posted by BigFish

.its why alcohol is called alcohol and drugs are commonly known as well....drugs! .

Ummmmmmmmmm, alcohol is one of the worst drugs

Heres the definition of a drug

A drug, broadly speaking, is any chemical substance that, when absorbed into the body of a living organism, alters normal bodily function.

and lets see , how many deaths occured from bong hits?.... Big fat 0.
In 2006 there were 17,941 alcohol related traffic deaths !!!

heres another excerpt for scientific american

By the Numbers: Deaths Caused by Alcohol; December 1996; Scientific American Magazine; by Doyle; 2 Page(s)

Excessive alcohol consumption leads to more than 100,000 deaths annually in the U.S. Accidents, mostly from drunken driving, made up a quarter of this number in 1992; alcohol- related homicide and suicide accounted for 11 and 8 percent, respectively. Cancers that are partly attributable to alcohol, such as those of the esophagus and larynx, contributed an additional 17 percent. About 9 percent resulted from alcohol-related stroke. Another major contributor is a group of 12 ailments wholly caused by alcohol (see map below), of which alcoholic cirrhosis of the liver and alcohol dependence syndrome are the most important. These 12 ailments represented 18 percent of all alcohol-related deaths in 1992.

The most reliable data are for the 12 alcohol-induced conditions. Mortality from these conditions rises steeply into late middle age and then declines markedly, with those age 85 or older being at less than one sixth the risk of 55- to 64-year-olds. Men are at three times the risk of women; blacks are at two and half times the risk of whites.

[Dad 818]

Originally Posted by Raven

if his face is on the cereal box i'm not eating it

Only cereal endorsement he has left is WEEDIES

[Gary]

Maby we should look up to The Reverend Fred Phelps as a role model.

[Raider Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Gary

Maby we should look up to The Reverend Fred Phelps as a role model.

NO,
Kids should look up to their parents !
Problems is, LOTS of parents are morons !

[Sea Dangles]

IMO there are more morons that drink than there are that smoke weed. I'll take it a step further and say the biggest morons are the ones who smoke cigarettes.A no buzz cancer creator for folks with no willpower and a tendency for addiction.

[NIB]

Originally Posted by Joe

With Phelps' outrageous lung capacity, he probably bogarted down the guy's whole stash in one huff. I think the real lesson here is to never to share a bowl with an aqua-lung pituitary case.

Yea you wanna go before him...

[Nebe]

If anyone wants a hand crafted michael phelps edition glass bong, just let me know.

[The Dad Fisherman]

The only reason Alcohol is legal and Pot is not........is Money.......and paranoia.

Both have been legal in this country and both have been illegal in this country at one time or another.

Personally i Think Alcohol is way more destructive than pot.......Drunks get Disoriented, Verbally Abusive, Physically Destructive, and Physically Worn Down.....Pot Heads get Stupid and Hungry for 4 hours, then take a nap.

That being said it IS Illegal. Now Phelps made a choice...to pick up the pipe. He got caught and now has to live with the Consequences....hopefully next time he makes a better choice. I'm not going to crucify the kid for making a bad choice.....my life was riddled with them when I was a kid.......didn't smarten up til I was probably 25....but I eventually Smartened up.

and this Whole "The Country has Gone to Hell" thing can sometimes be rediculous......Ever Since Man has walked the earth he has had a Monkey along for his back.

Your Grandparents and Great Grand parents had their demons just like the kids today have theirs......Only Difference (and RIJimmy is gonna love this) is the Media....people see it more readily than ever before. Pot, Drugs and Alcohol have been around for 1000's of years....do you think that Addiction has only been around for 50....

This is good article about what led up to it becoming illegal in the 30's......I especially love the quotes by the guy Anslinger......real McCarthy type stuff.

But All in All it was Money that drove it

In 1930, a new division in the Treasury Department was established -- the Federal Bureau of Narcotics -- and Harry J. Anslinger was named director. This, if anything, marked the beginning of the all-out war against marijuana.

Harry J. Anslinger

Anslinger was an extremely ambitious man, and he recognized the Bureau of Narcotics as an amazing career opportunity -- a new government agency with the opportunity to define both the problem and the solution. He immediately realized that opiates and cocaine wouldn't be enough to help build his agency, so he latched on to marijuana and started to work on making it illegal at the federal level.

Anslinger immediately drew upon the themes of racism and violence to draw national attention to the problem he wanted to create. He also promoted and frequently read from "Gore Files" -- wild reefer-madness-style exploitation tales of ax murderers on marijuana and sex and... Negroes. Here are some quotes that have been widely attributed to Anslinger and his Gore Files:


"There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others."

"...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races."

"Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death."

"Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men."

"Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing"

"You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother."

"Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind."
And he loved to pull out his own version of the "assassin" definition:

"In the year 1090, there was founded in Persia the religious and military order of the Assassins, whose history is one of cruelty, barbarity, and murder, and for good reason: the members were confirmed users of hashish, or marihuana, and it is from the Arabs' 'hashashin' that we have the English word 'assassin.'"

Yellow Journalism

Harry Anslinger got some additional help from William Randolf Hearst, owner of a huge chain of newspapers. Hearst had lots of reasons to help. First, he hated Mexicans. Second, he had invested heavily in the timber industry to support his newspaper chain and didn't want to see the development of hemp paper in competition. Third, he had lost 800,000 acres of timberland to Pancho Villa, so he hated Mexicans. Fourth, telling lurid lies about Mexicans (and the devil marijuana weed causing violence) sold newspapers, making him rich.

Some samples from the San Francisco Examiner:


"Marihuana makes fiends of boys in thirty days -- Hashish goads users to bloodlust."

"By the tons it is coming into this country -- the deadly, dreadful poison that racks and tears not only the body, but the very heart and soul of every human being who once becomes a slave to it in any of its cruel and devastating forms.... Marihuana is a short cut to the insane asylum. Smoke marihuana cigarettes for a month and what was once your brain will be nothing but a storehouse of horrid specters. Hasheesh makes a murderer who kills for the love of killing out of the mildest mannered man who ever laughed at the idea that any habit could ever get him...."

And other nationwide columns...


"Users of marijuana become STIMULATED as they inhale the drug and are LIKELY TO DO ANYTHING. Most crimes of violence in this section, especially in country districts are laid to users of that drug."

"Was it marijuana, the new Mexican drug, that nerved the murderous arm of Clara Phillips when she hammered out her victim's life in Los Angeles?... THREE-FOURTHS OF THE CRIMES of violence in this country today are committed by DOPE SLAVES -- that is a matter of cold record."
Hearst and Anslinger were then supported by Dupont chemical company and various pharmaceutical companies in the effort to outlaw cannabis. Dupont had patented nylon, and wanted hemp removed as competition. The pharmaceutical companies could neither identify nor standardize cannabis dosages, and besides, with cannabis, folks could grow their own medicine and not have to purchase it from large companies.

This all set the stage for...

The Marijuana Tax Act of 1937.

After two years of secret planning, Anslinger brought his plan to Congress -- complete with a scrapbook full of sensational Hearst editorials, stories of ax murderers who had supposedly smoked marijuana, and racial slurs.

It was a remarkably short set of hearings.

The one fly in Anslinger's ointment was the appearance by Dr. William C. Woodward, Legislative Council of the American Medical Association.

Woodward started by slamming Harry Anslinger and the Bureau of Narcotics for distorting earlier AMA statements that had nothing to do with marijuana and making them appear to be AMA endorsement for Anslinger's view.

He also reproached the legislature and the Bureau for using the term marijuana in the legislation and not publicizing it as a bill about cannabis or hemp. At this point, marijuana (or marihuana) was a sensationalist word used to refer to Mexicans smoking a drug and had not been connected in most people's minds to the existing cannabis/hemp plant. Thus, many who had legitimate reasons to oppose the bill weren't even aware of it.

Woodward went on to state that the AMA was opposed to the legislation and further questioned the approach of the hearings, coming close to outright accusation of misconduct by Anslinger and the committee:


"That there is a certain amount of narcotic addiction of an objectionable character no one will deny. The newspapers have called attention to it so prominently that there must be some grounds for [their] statements [even Woodward was partially taken in by Hearst's propaganda]. It has surprised me, however, that the facts on which these statements have been based have not been brought before this committee by competent primary evidence. We are referred to newspaper publications concerning the prevalence of marihuana addiction. We are told that the use of marihuana causes crime.

But yet no one has been produced from the Bureau of Prisons to show the number of prisoners who have been found addicted to the marihuana habit. An informed inquiry shows that the Bureau of Prisons has no evidence on that point.

You have been told that school children are great users of marihuana cigarettes. No one has been summoned from the Children's Bureau to show the nature and extent of the habit, among children.

Inquiry of the Children's Bureau shows that they have had no occasion to investigate it and know nothing particularly of it.

Inquiry of the Office of Education--- and they certainly should know something of the prevalence of the habit among the school children of the country, if there is a prevalent habit--- indicates that they have had no occasion to investigate and know nothing of it.

Moreover, there is in the Treasury Department itself, the Public Health Service, with its Division of Mental Hygiene. The Division of Mental Hygiene was, in the first place, the Division of Narcotics. It was converted into the Division of Mental Hygiene, I think, about 1930. That particular Bureau has control at the present time of the narcotics farms that were created about 1929 or 1930 and came into operation a few years later. No one has been summoned from that Bureau to give evidence on that point.

Informal inquiry by me indicates that they have had no record of any marihuana of Cannabis addicts who have ever been committed to those farms.

The bureau of Public Health Service has also a division of pharmacology. If you desire evidence as to the pharmacology of Cannabis, that obviously is the place where you can get direct and primary evidence, rather than the indirect hearsay evidence."
Committee members then proceeded to attack Dr. Woodward, questioning his motives in opposing the legislation. Even the Chairman joined in:


The Chairman: If you want to advise us on legislation, you ought to come here with some constructive proposals, rather than criticism, rather than trying to throw obstacles in the way of something that the Federal Government is trying to do. It has not only an unselfish motive in this, but they have a serious responsibility.

Dr. Woodward: We cannot understand yet, Mr. Chairman, why this bill should have been prepared in secret for 2 years without any intimation, even, to the profession, that it was being prepared.
After some further bantering...


The Chairman: I would like to read a quotation from a recent editorial in the Washington Times:
The marihuana cigarette is one of the most insidious of all forms of dope, largely because of the failure of the public to understand its fatal qualities.

The Nation is almost defenseless against it, having no Federal laws to cope with it and virtually no organized campaign for combating it.

The result is tragic.

School children are the prey of peddlers who infest school neighborhoods.

High school boys and girls buy the destructive weed without knowledge of its capacity of harm, and conscienceless dealers sell it with impunity.

This is a national problem, and it must have national attention.

The fatal marihuana cigarette must be recognized as a deadly drug, and American children must be protected against it.
That is a pretty severe indictment. They say it is a national question and that it requires effective legislation. Of course, in a general way, you have responded to all of these statements; but that indicates very clearly that it is an evil of such magnitude that it is recognized by the press of the country as such.
And that was basically it. Yellow journalism won over medical science.

The committee passed the legislation on. And on the floor of the house, the entire discussion was:


Member from upstate New York: "Mr. Speaker, what is this bill about?"

Speaker Rayburn: "I don't know. It has something to do with a thing called marihuana. I think it's a narcotic of some kind."

"Mr. Speaker, does the American Medical Association support this bill?"

Member on the committee jumps up and says: "Their Doctor Wentworth[sic] came down here. They support this bill 100 percent."
And on the basis of that lie, on August 2, 1937, marijuana became illegal at the federal level.

The entire coverage in the New York Times: "President Roosevelt signed today a bill to curb traffic in the narcotic, marihuana, through heavy taxes on transactions."