Lybia

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

The British, French and Italians are taking a major role in this effort. From reports, it seems that those three countries have been the major players of the aerial assault with the US providing support mostly with Tomahawk Missiles and the occasional Stealth Bomber.

I'm glad the US didn't jump into being the spearhead of this operation. Right now, the UN has the support of the Arab League. I highly doubt that would be the case if the US initiated the assault without full UN approval.

Hopefully all our involvement will be the part where we kick the door down; Command and control, Integrated Air Defenses, etc. Big difference in US capability versus the the other countries. I hope it works.

As for Arab League support, don't count on much, for long.

Originally Posted by justplugit

Wishfull thinking on the part of the Administration.

Gut feeling tells me we will end up, as usual, picking up most
of the military action and expense.

This is what I fear will happen.

Hopefully Col Q's military and Mercs flip on him. Of course at this stage of the game even if Q is gone and the rebels take over we'll have one of 3 things happen:

1) Rebels will go all fundamentalist anyway.

2) Rebels will fall under Iranian influence and follow the pattern somewhere along option one.

3) We might have some semblance of a modern democracy that remembers help from the west.

Don't expect the latter.

It dawned on me the other day when / where I do most of my philosophical thinking / reading, one great difference between the regions involved based on phrases is:

• Islam: the shout "Insh' Allah" If God Wills It.
• Christianity: "God helps those that help themselves"

No knocking, not going into great humor, but why did the (supposed) maturation of society / civilization seem to jump over large swaths of land between Morocco and western China?

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by JohnR

• Islam: the shout "Insh' Allah" If God Wills It.
• Christianity: "God helps those that help themselves"

No knocking, not going into great humor, but why did the (supposed) maturation of society / civilization seem to jump over large swaths of land between Morocco and western China?

My understanding of it was that Constantine became a Christian and it
spread under his influence in Rome and then Northward.
Why Northward? Maybe better communication, roads etc.
What always blows my mind is how quickly it spread through the
world by word of mouth as there was no formal communication
system, newspaper, radio or TV.

Just a guess on my part, but being there were so many different tribes with
their religious believes in the South, it wasn't fertile ground for conversion?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Wishfull thinking on the part of the Administration.

Gut feeling tells me we will end up, as usual, picking up most
of the military action and expense.

Personally, I don't think so. Gates has been pretty consistent in stating every day that the major US role will be only a few days long and then we will be handing the reins over to the other countries. After the initial destruction of the Libyan SAM sites by B2 Bombers, it seems that most missions, including active enforcement of the No-Fly Zone, are being carried out by other countries. This, I like.

As I said before, it's yet to be seen.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by justplugit

My understanding of it was that Constantine became a Christian and it
spread under his influence in Rome and then Northward.
Why Northward? Maybe better communication, roads etc.
What always blows my mind is how quickly it spread through the
world by word of mouth as there was no formal communication
system, newspaper, radio or TV.

Just a guess on my part, but being there were so many different tribes with
their religious believes in the South, it wasn't fertile ground for conversion?

My point - I didn't make clear enough, was the rapid transformation - mostly of the good - of the western and eastern parts of the world while largely leapfrogging Africa and the Middle East.

[justplugit]

News reports say 2 Tomahawks hit the compound by British submarine.

Seven more were scheduled to hit it also but because CNN and Reuters
reporters were invited in to view the damage they had to cancel.

Sounds like Gaddafi was smarter than the reporters.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by JohnR

No knocking, not going into great humor, but why did the (supposed) maturation of society / civilization seem to jump over large swaths of land between Morocco and western China?

A good friend always jokes: "Those people in the Middle East should be like the Jetsons by now. They had thousands of years of a head start over the rest of the world. The problem is that their religion is screwed up and they can't keep killing each other in the name of Allah."

There's definitely some truth to it.

In business, I've always felt "if we aren't moving forward, we're moving backwards." The Middle East hasn't moved forward in the last few thousand years.

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

2) Rebels will fall under Iranian influence and follow the pattern somewhere along option one.

Why do you believe a bunch of Sunni Arabs would fall under Iranian influence?

-spence

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by spence

Why do you believe a bunch of Sunni Arabs would fall under Iranian influence?

-spence

Why would Iran try to expand its sphere of influence of Sunni Taliban in Afg? Why would Iran try to influence Sunnis in Turkey? Sunnis in Syria? Hamas?

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Why would Iran try to expand its sphere of influence of Sunni Taliban in Afg? Why would Iran try to influence Sunnis in Turkey? Sunnis in Syria? Hamas?

Because they''re trying to secure their borders for the most part. Hamas is certainly a marriage of convenience, but a proxy war with the Zionists is often good PR.

I'm not saying that Iran won't try to influence Libya, but I'm not sure the conditions really exist to get much in return.

-spence

[striperman36]

Well Iran doesn't have much oil. So takin Libya into a consolidated state would improve things.

Why doesn't the UN annex it and give it to the Palestinians?

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by spence

Because they''re trying to secure their borders for the most part.
-spence

Secure their borders

[justplugit]

WTH, Obama is turning the war over to a Political Steering Committee
and without us even knowing what our objective is.
Insane.

[The Dad Fisherman]

When did it become a War?

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Secure their borders

Huh?

Iran is most focused on neighboring states. Not sure where the joke is, unless you just took a long toke and need to giggle

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

When did it become a War?

Aside from war does anyone know what it's called except maybe a Police Action
by the Political Steering Committee?

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Aside from war does anyone know what it's called except maybe a Police Action
by the Political Steering Committee?

Generally speaking war is a legal term. Vietnam, Korea...not wars...yikes.

I wouldn't call this a "war"...yet...although I doubt (i.e. hope) it doesn't go there. Depends on how we don't react to Ghaddafi's provocations.

-spence

[PNG]

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

Generally speaking war is a legal term. Vietnam, Korea...not wars...yikes.

I wouldn't call this a "war"...yet...although I doubt (i.e. hope) it doesn't go there. Depends on how we don't react to Ghaddafi's provocations.

-spence

I wonder if the pilot and the gunner of that plane that when down thought it was a war as they parachuted down into unknown territory?

[buckman]

This is a war and if ever a war was about oil, this is it. It's not for us though. CHANGE MY A$$

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

This is a war and if ever a war was about oil, this is it. It's not for us though. CHANGE MY A$$

There is no part of the above that makes any sense or has any reputable information to support it.

First Obama is incompetent because he chose not to attack Ghaddafi alone and wait for international support. Now, it's a war about oil with the US and all of Europe in on the cover up.

I can understand not liking the guy's policies but at least try and be consistent from day to day.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I wonder if the pilot and the gunner of that plane that when down thought it was a war as they parachuted down into unknown territory?

Oh Jesus...

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by PNG

Context.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

There is no part of the above that makes any sense or has any reputable information to support it.

First Obama is incompetent because he chose not to attack Ghaddafi alone and wait for international support. Now, it's a war about oil with the US and all of Europe in on the cover up.

I can understand not liking the guy's policies but at least try and be consistent from day to day.

I'll let you google around JD and figure it out. I'll give you a hint. Ireland bailout, Greece bailout, where they get their oil and why Britain and France care. Have at it!

[Raven]

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

Oh Jesus...

-spence

I know, easy to say its not a war when you sit by your cushy desk. I like to think of the guys flying the missions and their kids and families waiting at home. At least Iraq and Afhgan there was some threat, real or perceived to the US. Whats the deal in Libya.....oh, we're fighting to protect the people.....what people? Are they good guys, bad guys? Well.... we dont know. Whats the "intelligence" saying....we dont know....plan? exit strategy? Hmmmm, i guess it doesnt matter cause its not a war.

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I know, easy to say its not a war when you sit by your cushy desk. I like to think of the guys flying the missions and their kids and families waiting at home. At least Iraq and Afhgan there was some threat, real or perceived to the US. Whats the deal in Libya.....oh, we're fighting to protect the people.....what people? Are they good guys, bad guys? Well.... we dont know. Whats the "intelligence" saying....we dont know....plan? exit strategy? Hmmmm, i guess it doesnt matter cause its not a war.

Agreed, it is a war and there isn't any other way to describe it. Just ask one of our Military guys who are involved and tell them or their families this isn't a War.

I’d like Obama to answer he question directly, if we are really there for the people than why aren't we in Sudan and Yemen for those people too? China and Russia are sitting back while we are spending money we don't have and looking really bad right now. Obama is too busy telling Brazil we are going to help them with their offshore oil drilling............

[scottw]

it's not a war....it's a "kinetic military action"....you'll see

[Piscator]

Yea, the dumbing of America continues.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I know, easy to say its not a war when you sit by your cushy desk. I like to think of the guys flying the missions and their kids and families waiting at home. At least Iraq and Afhgan there was some threat, real or perceived to the US. Whats the deal in Libya.....oh, we're fighting to protect the people.....what people? Are they good guys, bad guys? Well.... we dont know. Whats the "intelligence" saying....we dont know....plan? exit strategy? Hmmmm, i guess it doesnt matter cause its not a war.

"cushy desk" ???

Double Jesus.

-spence

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

First Obama is incompetent because he chose not to attack Ghaddafi alone and wait for international support. Now, it's a war about oil with the US and all of Europe in on the cover up.

No, no, no.

"We are not the worlds police force"

"Wait, why are we in Lybia, but not Yemen, Saudia Arabia, Baharan et al.?'

I heard a quote, that I thought was funny involving Newt's flipping on this issue, that applies to many here..
To Paraphrase "Obama could start an initiative to recognize mothers on Mother's day, and they'd find something wrong with it"