Circle Hook / YoYo Rig Comment Period and Hearings

[BasicPatrick]

REALITY CHECK...the following is public record.

DMF DID NOT INITIATE THIS RULEMAKING...Major citizen user groups with members (on this board) started both of these actions. DMF took "petitions" to the MA Marine Fisheries Commission and the Commission decided to ask the public for input.

According to a presentation by DMF's Dr. Mike Armstrong at the MSBA meeting last week....


The MV Striped Bass & Bluefish Committee "Petitioned" DMF to ban the fishing method known as "YOYO".

The Cape Cod Charter Boat Association "Petitioned" DMF to mandate circle hook use on all natural bait.


A few factoids from the Q&A at MSBA you might want to hear...

Q. Under the YoYo language would an egg sinker or weight stuffed inside a rigged eel be legal? A. If not attached to the line...then NOT LEGAL.

Q. would circle hooks be required when fishing with Sand Eels and Sea Worms? A. YES

Q. Would circle hooks be required when fishing live Bunker and Mackerel? A. Yes

Q. Would circle hooks be required on a high low bait rig? A. Yes

Q. Is an offset Circle a legal circle hook? A. NO

Q. Is and "Octopus" circle a legal circle? A. NO

Q. Is a circle hook required on the end of a Tube & Worm lure? A. NO

[Spinfish]

Originally Posted by JoeBass

I mostly fish Maine and starting Jan. 1 2012 circle hooks for bait fishing is the law. I'll abide by it because it helps cut down on fish mortality (and it's the law) but, and this is a big one for me,...I'm gonna really miss setting the hook. I've been setting the hook for over 40 years, it's now a reflex. And it's a great feeling.By-the-way I agree with all the guys saying one at 36" and cut commercial in half.

I know, if you can't cross their eyes a little what fun is it...

Maybe if I let the fish swallow the Eel, and swims away just right....and I keep just the right pressure....the Eel will pull out of it's gut....the hook will rotate just right... Spare me.

[big jay]

Patrick's right about the Circle hook proposal - it did come from the Cape Cod Charter Boat Association. It was a reaction to the ridiculous # of dead short fish that were floating during the month long eel bite at P-town during the 2009 season.

I personally think circles are even more effective than J's (again, from my boat that doesn't count here) - but it is funny to see my Father fish circles - he's been using J's for so long, he can't possible help himself from setting the hook, no matter how hard he tries.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Sea Dangles]

I fished circles for tarpon in Florida and it was really difficult to get used to;"point the rod tip towards the fish and just reel".You literally can not set the hook with those things. I can see myself ignoring both of these ideas and taking my chances,circle high/low rigs? Tell me this is all a joke.

For a realistic idea that will have a positive impact on the fishery we need to reduce the catch to 1 at 36".Places like the canal where the recs have a sizable impact will be policed by the anglers themselves.

There are pleanty of charter boat captains who set no catch limits on their charters and allow a few extras for the sports,especially the nighttime variety. This also has to cease for the bass to have a chance to flourish.

[trapperpierre]

.....striper Maniac & I were interjecting some "spin off stuff"..I will start a thread where it belongs--me bad--in The Tavern section(i.e. not made in USA ETC.)

........and so called "Petitions" sent to DMF--in the yoyo review-is based on several accounts of fish being damaged-not done in a scientific survey...only based on very limited data...if the trend is to have the general public manage our fisheries....not based on a scientific survey-based on all the elements of proper established and accepted scientific research method....WE all are in trouble......then we should abolish all marine scientists employed by the MA DMF....and let the general public create & remove fishery regulations....

even worse, is when state asemblies take on the duty of Wildlife & Fisheries managment.....

..show me the data that is inrefutable evidence in the proper quanities...

.....my real interest is not so much in defending any methods engaged in a fishery...........please show me---in documented detail the results of extensive research to justify the said changes desired... show me that data from the scientist & managers...not limited data and fueled by emotion or passions that distain fishing methods not used by a particular group

.....the process of entering "Petitions" are part of the process..........we should have faith in the established system

....is easy to pack a hearing with large numbers of people trained to say similar views-not necessarily based on fact....

we are at a dangerous cross roads of who or whom becomes the fishery managers

Note aside: Good news---there has a susbtancial sucess in grafting American Chestnut trees to establish growth---some day--we can use them again for whatever purpose...

In the recent past-I spent 6 years -as a member on the ASMFC SB advisory panel.....I have a bit of knowledge how the reglatory system operates....I was not reapointed by The Gov. of our lovely state---when I expressed my concerns for a reduce coastwide harvest of beloved menhaden...and introduced the concept of establishing a seperate user catogorie fof the SB resource.......for Charter/headboat Com.-------a utlization of the resource that removes vast poundage of fish(striped bass)--for bucks$$.

[MAKAI]

For accurate accountability, the charter/ headboat fleet should be a separate designation. See adjective one, could make the argument that they are more commercial fishing than the guys selling fish out of their personal boats.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Places like the canal where the recs have a sizable impact will be policed by the anglers themselves.

You mean by pissing and moaning online?

[big jay]

[QUOTE=Sea Dangles;

There are pleanty of charter boat captains who set no catch limits on their charters and allow a few extras for the sports,especially the nighttime variety. This also has to cease for the bass to have a chance to flourish.[/QUOTE]

Plenty Chris?

That's a bunch of HorseSh*t.
Like anything, there may be one or 2 scumbags out there, but the vast majority aren't about to risk their businesses and reputations to let a customer cheat.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Sea Dangles]

You would be surprised at how well known some of these Captains are that are willing to take these risks. But a few bad apples don't spoil the whole bunch Jay.Certainly the majority are stewards of the resource so their future is insured.

[riff_raff]

Originally Posted by MAKAI

For accurate accountability, the charter/ headboat fleet should be a separate designation. See adjective one, could make the argument that they are more commercial fishing than the guys selling fish out of their personal boats.

What you are forgetting is the charter/headboat fleet is not "fishing". Their clients are fishing. No different than any other guy sitting on the shore or in his own or buddies boat. They just rent a ride and hire a guide.

Jon

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

You would be surprised at how well known some of these Captains are that are willing to take these risks. But a few bad apples don't spoil the whole bunch Jay.Certainly the majority are stewards of the resource so their future is insured.

Next people will tell you none of the charter guys keep stellwagon bass.

Originally Posted by MAKAI

For accurate accountability, the charter/ headboat fleet should be a separate designation. See adjective one, could make the argument that they are more commercial fishing than the guys selling fish out of their personal boats.

There was a thread about this not too long ago. I'm sure you could find it searching commercial and charter. Very telling.

[MAKAI]

Originally Posted by riff_raff

What you are forgetting is the charter/headboat fleet is not "fishing". Their clients are fishing. No different than any other guy sitting on the shore or in his own or buddies boat. They just rent a ride and hire a guide.

Jon

The captain is engaged in an act of fishing commerce, we are talking semantics here. I work part time on a charter boat. The goal all the time is to get the maximum we can keep . After all that is what we are getting " paid " to do. If I am rec fishing it's never about the maximum to take home, I hardly ever keep fish. So do most of the people I know that fish a bit. A couple a year suffice.

My point is to have 3 designations for Bass pie.

1- True commercial.
2- Charter/ headboat fishing.
3- Recreational.

1 and 2 are always going after max take, for money.
3 is not.

[Mr. Sandman]

[QUOTE=trapperpierre;901510....then we should abolish all marine scientists employed by the MA DMF....and let the general public create & remove fishery regulations....
.[/QUOTE]


Yes!!!
Best idea in your rant!

What GOOD has the marine scientists done? The recent codfish debacle comes to mind and all that so called science.

As for the Yoyo issue. While not scientific, it is hardly limited data, it is pretty factual....Sometimes common sense will be a better guide than exhaustive, expensive, time consuming and error prone science based extrapolations by state-hired Phd's who don't fish.

This was based on the commercial fleet who, off of Gay Head a few years ago, were pounding fish with this approach. Many fish were lost and ingested the lead and associated wire rigs internally. (we know this because many were recaptured with infected sores and wire/metal rigs poking thru their stomachs. Most were sold with the lead inside) When you see them doing it, and the amount of gear lost that you KNOW is now inside the fish...this becomes a no-brainer.
ENOUGH WITH THE BAD SCIENCE!!! You guys can't manage yourself out of a paper bag with that so called science you tout, Frankly, it is laughable. Try some common sense and save us all a lot of money as well as a few fish.

YoYo was an effective fishing method. But the REAL mortality is ALOT more than what is currently assumed. Further there is a risk of long term lead contamination to the flesh which is consumed by humans.
Is the state saying that fish that have lead in their digestive systems for long periods, placed there by fishermen, is a good thing for the public who consume them? Why is the DMF trying to poison the fish-buying public with lead? If they OK this method that is effectively what they are saying, that they like the idea of lead inside fish, knowing it will be consumed by the public. I can see potential legal nightmare for the state when someone gets lead poisoning.


I support this yo-yo ban.

Circle hooks are a positive step as well.

It will be tougher to catch a tog with a circle hook and a green-crab however.


The bottom line is fishermen especially NE fishermen resist change of any kind...good bad or otherwise. You have to jam it down their throat with them kicking and screaming or you can not do anything. Just do it...Man up!

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman

The bottom line is fishermen especially NE fishermen resist change of any kind...good bad or otherwise. You have to jam it down their throat with them kicking and screaming or you can not do anything. Just do it...Man up!

Short memories too, the cod collapse has been mentioned every year for damn near 20 years now.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by riff_raff

What you are forgetting is the charter/headboat fleet is not "fishing". Their clients are fishing. No different than any other guy sitting on the shore or in his own or buddies boat. They just rent a ride and hire a guide.

Jon

When you hire a charter, you don't need your own fishing license. So the government has already decided that charter boats are in a distinct category of their own. Same goes for when they are fishing for BFT, separate designation from recreation fishermen.

You see, charters are on the water for one reason... commercial intent. They exchange a service for money. Now, I'm not saying that there is anything at all wrong with that. However, the industry as a whole should be held accountable for the total amount of fish they take. Enough grouping charter/head boats and *true* recreational fishermen into the same regulatory category for striped bass.

If you want to nitpick semantics, why was the captain that caught the bluefin tuna in their trawler nets the one under all the scrutiny? He wasn't the one tending the nets, the guys out on the deck were.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by MAKAI

The captain is engaged in an act of fishing commerce, we are talking semantics here. I work part time on a charter boat. The goal all the time is to get the maximum we can keep . After all that is what we are getting " paid " to do. If I am rec fishing it's never about the maximum to take home, I hardly ever keep fish. So do most of the people I know that fish a bit. A couple a year suffice.

My point is to have 3 designations for Bass pie.

1- True commercial.
2- Charter/ headboat fishing.
3- Recreational.

1 and 2 are always going after max take, for money.
3 is not.

The Captain will only kill as many fish as the charter wants to kill (up to the limit). Some folks don't kill any, some only kill one or two, some kill the max. Its just like guys fishing from private boats or from shore.

[MAKAI]

Not the guys we take out. Fill the box almost all the time.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[riff_raff]

On my own boat, when we had a 23.75 inch cod, that the enviro said was "MORE LIKE 23!", as the boat owner I got a written warning for "POSSESSION OF COD".. "< 24 inches" (classic)..

In other words, the boat owner takes the wrap, they didn't ask who's fish it was, it just went on me. Same as it probably does on a commercial boat or charter. Back to Stripers..

There are plenty of private boat fisherman out there killing as many as they can, it's not something limited to a charter or commercial boat.

Actually, the worst class of fisherman to the striper is probably the expert catch and release fly-fisherman that hooks 50 fish a day. They probably kill more fish per trip than an entire 6 pack charter that limits out. At least on the charter boat they target big fish, catching very few shorts, then usually call it a day once the limit is reached.

The thing about the license for charter boats is just to deal with ignorance. They provided a boat license so the charter captain doesn't have to orchestrate his fares buying their own license. I've never looked into it, but it might be possible for anybody to get one (though it costs a lot more).

I'm OK with that, most likely if you are chartering a boat you are a novice at best; it's hard enough making sure the experienced guys get the license before your first trip out.

There's no sense to designating the charter boats by themselves; again, they are just taxis that come with a tour guide. The recreational angler is the one doing the fishing.

Jon

[likwid]

Originally Posted by riff_raff

On my own boat, when we had a 23.75 inch cod, that the enviro said was "MORE LIKE 23!", as the boat owner I got a written warning for "POSSESSION OF COD".. "< 24 inches" (classic)..

Boat owner is responsible.

And correct me if I'm wrong, a 23.75" fish is smaller than 24".

Maybe my maths are bad and all, but I'm pretty sure!

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by likwid

Boat owner is responsible.

And correct me if I'm wrong, a 23.75" fish is smaller than 24".

Maybe my maths are bad and all, but I'm pretty sure!

Damn those EPs for enforcing a clearly defined regulation. Sounds like the EP was as reasonable as he could be. Certainly could have dished out a fine if he felt so inclined.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by riff_raff

Actually, the worst class of fisherman to the striper is probably the expert catch and release fly-fisherman that hooks 50 fish a day. They probably kill more fish per trip than an entire 6 pack charter that limits out. At least on the charter boat they target big fish, catching very few shorts, then usually call it a day once the limit is reached.

Ugh.

A C&R flyfisherman probably kills about 2% of what he hooks (an accepted number for barbless single hooks and small fish).
Even if he killed the standard CR number of 12% (which he doesn't) he would kill 6 fish in your scenario....which is 1/2 what the 6 pack charter kills taking their limit (not counting the 4 extra fish kept under the mate and captain's allowance and another 12% of what they release).

Also, charter boats do not call it a day after the limit is reached, they fish out the alloted hours. Then there is the issue that killing big (female) fish damages the breeding population much more than killing small fish. Furthermore, the charter boat does this day after day after day.....the average recreational fisherman fishes many less hours a season.

If you want to argue that charter boat kill is recreational kill, fine. There is no need, however, to propagate clueless exaggerated myths about the impact of C&R fishing.

[toaster816]

Originally Posted by riff_raff

On my own boat, when we had a 23.75 inch cod, that the enviro said was "MORE LIKE 23!", as the boat owner I got a written warning for "POSSESSION OF COD".. "< 24 inches" (classic)..

In other words, the boat owner takes the wrap, they didn't ask who's fish it was, it just went on me. Same as it probably does on a commercial boat or charter. Back to Stripers..

There are plenty of private boat fisherman out there killing as many as they can, it's not something limited to a charter or commercial boat.

Actually, the worst class of fisherman to the striper is probably the expert catch and release fly-fisherman that hooks 50 fish a day. They probably kill more fish per trip than an entire 6 pack charter that limits out. At least on the charter boat they target big fish, catching very few shorts, then usually call it a day once the limit is reached.

The thing about the license for charter boats is just to deal with ignorance. They provided a boat license so the charter captain doesn't have to orchestrate his fares buying their own license. I've never looked into it, but it might be possible for anybody to get one (though it costs a lot more).

I'm OK with that, most likely if you are chartering a boat you are a novice at best; it's hard enough making sure the experienced guys get the license before your first trip out.

There's no sense to designating the charter boats by themselves; again, they are just taxis that come with a tour guide. The recreational angler is the one doing the fishing.

Jon

You kept a short fish, you got written up, what did you expect? 24" means 24". That is actually awesome to hear he or she didn't let it go.

OVER THE LINE!!

This isn't 'Nam Smokey this is bowling, there are rules.

[trapperpierre]

smart ass taking a few lines out of contexts....haha.........

A day of trolling or light line so called catch and release kills many more fish than any other striper fishing method in current use......the handful of fish found with gear injested is nothing compared to the numerous dead stripers observed with ripped open mouths -some with treble hooked plugs jamed in their dead or maws--results of light line breakage....."oh look at that fish swim away---yea to become crab food......again, to operate-to develope regulations- on so called common sense---is a tool being used by the recs(the real ones destroying the striped bass fishery by the massive numbers of them pounding the bass to death)....is foolish--to take the heat , focus off the rec group that is killing and maiming the vast majority of striped bass

One needs a dedicated study before changes be made....when emotion charged & legislators take up the task of fish/wildlife management --the ones that utilize the fishery will suffer in the end..

Regulations Guised as a deception to get the heat off the Rec/charter commercials......."Oh we are the good guys"

Oh yea, who put the Division up to exploring said proposed regulations...none other than members of various rec groups willing to go to any method to covet/steal all the fish for their own pleasure

A dangerous precedent is being marketed here......

I'm FOR ALL REGULATIONS BE BASED ON SOUND SCIENTIFIC STUDIES OF MERIT WHICH ARE POSSIBLE...NOT FOR REGULATIONS BASED ON A SELECT GROUPS DESIRING CONTROL OF A FISHERIES RESOURCE............THESE TAKE TIME AND PROCEEDURE.....show me the conphrehensive data.............not a handful of incidents.....

Banning Catch & Release with light tackle---or fished dragged on heavy trolling tackle behind Charters Boats KILL many many more striped bass.........than a couple of sinkers or J hooks........

[trapperpierre]

..There are various levels of lead and other heavy metals in many foods either store bought or harvested in the wild.......might as well ban many foods on this suppostion......in fact, many food scientists believe the accepted levels of metals and other "good stuff" in foods are to high.....SHOW a substancial testing to substanciate high levels of lead in striped bass. Most likely more lead in ones Thanksgiving turkey....

With all that is discused here .....one can tethered the sinker to the hook-to prevent loss....da

The "Maine" point in contention here is the method of attempting to gain unjustafied control of a natural resource by one user group

The main thrust of coversive action is the methodolgy of the so called "Self Proclaimed Striper Savers"........that will use any method feasible---including infiltrating mangement to foster "their cause"---cause being a total take over of the wonderful striped bass-currently an established tradition MULTIPLE USE RESOURCE..

....granted many established channels of proceedures are being followed..............HOWEVER....in the case of the sinker....NOT ENOUGH HARD Scientific DATA ON RECORD

WE ALL UTILIZE THE STRIPED BASS RESOURCE....dead or alive

[likwid]

We get it, you yoyo and hate circle hooks and you're gonna spew till you die against the ban.

You're the minority.

Taking a short fish is poaching, how does it feel to publicly admit you're a poacher?

[trapperpierre]

..Hey Dummy......riff raff mentioned a short cod....da.....using lobsters to bait stripers(probably undersized & illegally procured) is poaching.............the Real poachers are all you clowns that want to steal all the striped bassfor your personal use....---using method of take to eliminate other users groups...da......da...circle hooks have their time & place for usage-however the J hook is needed in certain fishing applications.........MULTIPLE USE ACCESS TO THE STRIPED BASS FISHERY is a honorable use of the resource.....

OH I get it ..your one of those "Foreva guys".....that want to control the striped bass...

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by trapperpierre

..Hey Dummy......riff raff mentioned a short cod....da.....using lobsters to bait stripers(probably undersized & illegally procured) is poaching.............the Real poachers are all you clowns that want to steal all the striped bassfor your personal use....---using method of take to eliminate other users groups...da......da...circle hooks have their time & place for usage-however the J hook is needed in certain fishing applications.........MULTIPLE USE ACCESS TO THE STRIPED BASS FISHERY is a honorable use of the resource.....

OH I get it ..your one of those "Foreva guys".....that want to control the striped bass...

This is like being a commercial logger down in the rain forests and telling the locals "you just want all these trees for yourselves. Multiple use to the trees is honorable. Now stop preventing us from cutting them all down."

Also, I'm not sure if you understand what "poacher" actually means.

[trapperpierre]

.....Happy Holidays

[likwid]

Originally Posted by trapperpierre

using lobsters to bait stripers(probably undersized & illegally procured) is poaching

IT TOTALLY IS! CALL THE FISHCOPS!
Hold on, a green truck just went by, I'll go flag him down.

All my lobsters are procured with a lobster call. I'm a professional lobster caller, I'm hired to herd them. You have never heard a lobster call like my lobster call.

the Real poachers are all you clowns that want to steal all the striped bassfor your personal use

i use them for friends. squishy slimy scaly friends.
and call them george

[Green Light]

What's the status of this bill?