Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda ... VT Student w/ CCW Could Have Stopped Psycho Cho

[spence]

I don't think more guns helps matters much, in fact it's quite silly considering how often a tragic event of this magnitude really happens.

Do you really want non-police put in a situation where they have to determine not just if their own life is in danger, but if they need to use lethal force because of danger to another?

What happens when it's a violent person with a knife or other dangerous item? What are the legal ramifications to those attempting to do good, only to have made a poor decision to use lethal force and potentially not have the law on their side?

It's not reasonable to make policy based on the isolated incident.

As an aside...why anyone would carry on campus just because they could is beyond me...assuming you're not attending the U of Kabul

I'm certainly not anti-gun, but I do think this whole self defence mantra is part political rhetoric or perhaps somtimes just fantasy. Yes, it certainly does happen but not enough to justify broader policy.

In the VT incident the problems appear to be the ease at which Cho was able to buy weapons after the system knew he was a wacko, and the inability of the system to find him and stop the violence once it started.

I'm not sure there's any easy fix to all of this. But sometimes these things just happen.

-spence

[Diamond Tackle]

Originally Posted by spence

It's not reasonable to make policy based on the isolated incident.
-spence

Not True, SOME decisions need to be made, NO action is the same as allowing it to happen again, then we are all just as complicit.
These incidents dont seem that isolated to me anymore, I dont think we need to go through the whole list of school shootings , do we .

Originally Posted by spence

As an aside...why anyone would carry on campus just because they could is beyond me...assuming you're not attending the U of Kabul -spence

Personally I would not carry on any campus, I dont want the responsibility, but those that are willing to accept the burden, ESP someone as brave as that professor, deserve the opportunity .

Originally Posted by spence

I'm certainly not anti-gun, but I do think this whole self defence mantra is part political rhetoric or perhaps somtimes just fantasy. Yes, it certainly does happen but not enough to justify broader policy. -spence

No more rethoric than the "ban all guns" mantra of the far left, which is all they seem to be able to come up with, more laws, more ridiculous paperwork for law abiding citizens. Easy, quick fix ,feel good legislation that does>>>> NOTHING.

Originally Posted by spence

In the VT incident the problems appear to be the ease at which Cho was able to buy weapons after the system knew he was a wacko, and the inability of the system to find him and stop the violence once it started. -spence

Well we certainly agree here. A lot of people dropped the ball on this one. The only fantasy I see is that "we the people" have teams of concerned FEDERAL employees all doing their jobs to prevent sales of guns to the likes of Cho. Red flags should have gone off all over the place.
The system doesnt work properly, its just another federal job with $15/ hr clerks sitting behind a computer making decisions based on the info in front of them, it certainly aint Kirsten Vangsness approving these background checks (the criminal minds chick with all your personal info at her fingertips)

Originally Posted by spence

I'm not sure there's any easy fix to all of this. But sometimes these things just happen.-spence

There probably is no easy fix, glad we agree on that too.
Maybe , We can start with removing the guns from the crazies, as Ive said before, we certainly don't allow people with restraining orders against them to purchase or own, why crazies ? Ahhh, back full circle to that doctor patient confidentiality thing. Where exactly is that in the constitution anyway ??

[fishpoopoo]

blah blah blah

1) people will live up to the responsibilty expected of them. you can trust an 18 year old cop or soldier but not a trained 21 year old college student? whatever.

2) there are many states where college students can possess and carry on campus (MA isn't one of them). they haven't had any problems.

a few decades ago, it wasn't an uncommon sight to see high-schoolers and college students openly toting firearms to SCHOOL during hunting season ("Johnny, that's a nice duck gun, now please go lock it up in your locker" says Ms. Crabapple.). are you saying that people have changed that much in such short time? there are no trustworthy people left?

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Tinman

Where exactly is that in the constitution anyway ??

the hppa act is the new law denying anyone access to medical records.

for example ...i was trying to correct a wrong billing for hospital
charges with our health insurance provider for my wife's account
and they won't allow you access unless you get authorization even
though we've been married for 35 years. it's very enforced now.

[fishpoopoo]

Originally Posted by spence

Do you really want non-police put in a situation where they have to determine not just if their own life is in danger, but if they need to use lethal force because of danger to another?

The police are not there to protect the public at large. They are there to uphold the law. In other words, clean up the mess. This is a SCOTUS ruling. 30 of the 32 VT fatalities were dead by the time cops arrived. VT had a campus ban on concealed carry (legal under state law though). Think about this - VT wanted to promote a safe environment, but can't guarantee you of one, and then restricts you from an effective means of self-defense? Stupid.

Originally Posted by spence

What happens when it's a violent person with a knife or other dangerous item?

A person armed with a knife can can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds, and stick you dead in a heartbeat. Google "Tueller Drill" if you don't believe me. As part of training, I timed a gent with congestive heart failure and he managed to cover that distance in 2 seconds. Even in the Commonwealth of Mass, use of lethal force is justified on a knife-wielder. Yes, you can justifiably shoot a knife-wielder, provided you have made an effort to retreat and he is still stalking you.

Originally Posted by spence

In the VT incident the problems appear to be the ease at which Cho was able to buy weapons after the system knew he was a wacko, and the inability of the system to find him and stop the violence once it started.

The guy shouldn't have been approved for a weapons purchase. He fell through the cracks - the "system" you fault. More importantly, he picked his target with a deliberate view to inflicting the most casualties. Typically these are in victim disarmament zones. Why didn't he attack a police station instead?

[Swimmer]

Bassturbed said, "The guy shouldn't have been approved for a weapons purchase. He fell through the cracks - the "system" you fault. More importantly, he picked his target with a deliberate view to inflicting the most casualties. Typically these are in victim disarmament zones. Why didn't he attack a police station instead?[/quote]


Because he was a coward in every facet of his life, he was someone who was shamefully afraid. He knew no one would be there to stop him.

Tinman, I only ever knew one officer who couldn't shoot because he contracted a disease from the inside of a jail cell in the station he worked at that was riddle with mold. His sight was pitiful.

Other than that one officer every other one I know could shoot really well. That being said, officers are human and as such can never state unequivically what they will do in a shoot out unless of course they have allready been involved in one, or is a defective person who is dying to shoot someone to begin with.

[Diamond Tackle]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

Tinman, I only ever knew one officer who couldn't shoot because he contracted a disease from the inside of a jail cell in the station he worked at that was riddle with mold. His sight was pitiful.

Other than that one officer every other one I know could shoot really well. That being said, officers are human and as such can never state unequivically what they will do in a shoot out unless of course they have allready been involved in one, or is a defective person who is dying to shoot someone to begin with.

I should have clarified that statement better, I meant ON PAPER , cause thats the only place I can SEE them shoot, wouldnt really want to see them shoot a live perp anyway. Most guys i know(I would say as high as 90%) that punch paper and do it on a regular basis are better shots than the average cop(IMO), another reason I say this, most cops shoot just enought to stay qualified with that weapon, not many really enjoy going to the range to stay sharp. And one cop I showed how to field strip his Glock, said to me " i didnt know it came apart like that", u cant make that up. It was loaded with brass shavings,had not been properly cleaned in ages. Scary.

But I will retract my statement, since its only from I have seen and obviously not indicative of all LE.

[Raven]

heard this on tv news

thats right....Virginia's Governor passed a ruling saying anyone with
mental problems doesn't get to buy guns.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/30/gun....ap/index.html

[fishpoopoo]

Dear God:

Why didn't you save the school children at ?.

Virginia Tech 04/16/07
Amish Country, PA
Wisconsin
Columbine High School
Moses Lake , Washington 2/2/96
Bethel , Alaska 2/19/97!
Pearl , Mississippi 10/1/97
West Paducah , Kentucky 12/1/97
Stam! p, Arkansas 12/15/97
Jonesboro , Arkansas 3/24/98
Edinboro , Pennsylvania 4/24/98
Fayetteville , Tennessee 5/19/98
Springfield , Oregon 5/21/98
Richmond , Virginia 6/15/98
Littleton , Colorado 4/20/99
Taber , Alberta , Canada 5/28/99
Conyers , Georgia 5/20/99
Deming , New Mexico 11/19/99
Fort Gibson , Oklahoma 12/6/99
Santee , California 3/ 5/01 and
El Cajon , California 3/22/01?

Sincerely,

Concerned Student

-----------------------------------------------------

Reply:

Dear Concerned Student:

I am not allowed in schools.

Sincerely,

God