$3.99/gal.

[RIROCKHOUND]

I agree.
Probably one of the greener supporters of Nuke's out there.
Alaska... maybe not. I would rather see a lot of the $$ should go towards investing in better recovery methods. they are getting deeper and more out of existing holes,

and #4 is right on. Nuke w/o Yucca Mtn is a good thing!

[Joe]

There are a lot of boaters and SUV/truck owners who figure they could afford the vehicle and the insurance, but they did not factor in a significant increase in fuel costs.

The car and boating industries spent a lot of money and convinced America that big trucks/suv's and boating were affordable - this is a reality check that they are not....Sell the boat, sell the truck, cut your losses before it gets worse.

[MAC]

Originally Posted by Bassturbed

i sound like a broken record ... but ...

1) you can't blame President Bush for record gasoline prices

2) you can't blame oil companies for record gasoline prices

3) blame refinery capacity shortages in the u.s. for record gasoline prices.

4) refinery shminery you say? we haven't had ONE NEW refinery built in decades, largely because of stringent ENVIRONMENTAL LAWS. the existing infrastructure is going full-tilt boogie to keep up with demand now AND IS SHOWING STRAIN. also, Hurricane Katrina took some refinery capacity offline.

5) damn chinks and stinky vindaloos are hogging the world's oil that rightfully belong in MY pickup truck. let those bastards run their economies on rickshaws.

6) If unleaded 87 octane gasoline for autos goes above $3.25 (already well above this for boats), I'm gonna be spending a lot of time at my reloading or fly-tying benches this summer, cuz I ain't gonna be driving up to RI or MA at this rate. Sad to say, we're gonna have to think about saving up for the winter heating season. BOHICA, baby.

U don't sound like a broken record to me Ben. But here's my thoughts on the refinery side. (I could be wrong)

Most businesses keep a portion of their income for equipment upkeep and maintenance before they divy everything up. This portion is to help pay for new equipment as old stuff wears out or breaks down. They also look at ways to streamline and perfect their operations to make them more cost efficient.

I don't believe the oil companies do things this way though. They would rather make due with what they have and force prices to stay up. Why would it be beneficial to them to bring some older unused refineries back on line? Sure it may possibly lower prices at the pump, making the general population happy (for a little while anyways). But with lower production cost per unit they will come up with lower profit per unit of measure. Doesn't make much sense from big business point of view that I can see.


Remember last year when it hit 3 bux+. Not 1 day after the hurricane big oil was placing blame on it for fuel going so high. Now they have seen that the people can't and won't do anything about it so they are ecstatic. Nothing going on now and oil (crude) is lower than it has been in a long time. So why is regular 2.99 a gallon now?

I say start making the Oil Co.s start paying for Iraq................

[fishpoopoo]

Dave,

I hear ya. Maybe there is some of this at play.

But ... refiners make the same money per gallon and don't benefit from rising oil prices.

The only companies that benefit are the guys who hunt for it and suck it out of the ground and deliver it to be processed into gasoline and other distillates. Their costs to get oil don't change but if prices go up, the extra price goes straight to the bottom line. Not so with refiners.

You have to distinguish refineries from exploration & production companies. Some do both.

The environmental regulations for new refineries are onerous. Not only EPA and state regs, but a lot of NIMBY opposition too. It is what it is.

We wouldn't have too many problems if we had more capacity to refine sour crude (higher sulfur content), of which there is a fairly good supply.

[pmueller]

Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman

If gas to goes to 5 bucks you can kiss the pleasure boat business goodbye for a while. Boats will flood the market. (They are starting to now actually between the insurance in Fla and the fuel)

They already have.

[Flaptail]

Bassturbed hit the nail on the head.

Scene #1, City Hall meeting room

"Uh, Ladies and Gentlemenwe are here before your zoning board and Town Government officials to ask permission to build a new refinery in the souteast corner of your town, it will bring jobs and added tax revenues to your city"

'A refinery'? "Not in my town, we don't want no stinking dirty oil refinery in our town, we'll call out the tree huggers, IFAW, The Sierra Club, The conservaion Law Foundation"! Try the next town over!"

"We did sir, every town and city weve asked has turned us down and the places we already have plants won't let us expand and modernize"

"So okay then that's it? "Okay then, sorry we asked" "Thank you all for your time".

Scene #2, in the company car outside city hall after the meeting adjourned.

"Better call the Board and tell them we got rejected" "okay, but you know the stock holders won't like this" "Ah well we will just have to raise the prices to meet sales and revenue expectations as usual" " I can't beleive how stupid the American public can be, if only they would let us build a few more plants, we could drop prices, supply would meet demand and with increased volume still make a profit by the increase sales" "I know, I will never understand it myself"

"I guess they just like paying more, business as usual" It's perfectly legal for now so........"

BEND OVER AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MAC]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

Bassturbed hit the nail on the head.

Scene #1, City Hall meeting room

"Uh, Ladies and Gentlemenwe are here before your zoning board and Town Government officials to ask permission to build a new refinery in the souteast corner of your town, it will bring jobs and added tax revenues to your city"

'A refinery'? "Not in my town, we don't want no stinking dirty oil refinery in our town, we'll call out the tree huggers, IFAW, The Sierra Club, The conservaion Law Foundation"! Try the next town over!"

"We did sir, every town and city weve asked has turned us down and the places we already have plants won't let us expand and modernize"

"So okay then that's it? "Okay then, sorry we asked" "Thank you all for your time".

Scene #2, in the company car outside city hall after the meeting adjourned.

"Better call the Board and tell them we got rejected" "okay, but you know the stock holders won't like this" "Ah well we will just have to raise the prices to meet sales and revenue expectations as usual" " I can't beleive how stupid the American public can be, if only they would let us build a few more plants, we could drop prices, supply would meet demand and with increased volume still make a profit by the increase sales" "I know, I will never understand it myself"

"I guess they just like paying more, business as usual" It's perfectly legal for now so........"

BEND OVER AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree. The Not In My Back Yard (NIMBY) theories that the majority of Americans have now will be a crippling blow to us all.

[Flaptail]

NIMBY goes way beyond oil refineries. It's affect here on the Cape is crippling. The Industrial apark in Hyannis (Independence Park) was created to entice light industry to build plants that would help with the underpaying industry like hospitaility/food / entertainment that are viable only in the three short months of summer.

The Cape Cod Commision, which has manifested itself and morphed into this all powerful agency has quite lethaly squashed that concept. If you have ever been thru the park you can plainly see it would be perfect for this type of business but the feeling that "Olde Cape Cod" woulb be blighted by it has prevented it from happening so the haves that make thier money off cape and come here to build trophy homes are eating up all the available housing and the middle class who love this place as well live paycheck to paycheck and struggle to make ends meet and thier children can't afford to live where they were born becuase there are no housing units being built of modest pricing. Contractor/developers continue to make money at the expense of losingn that which is the vital compaonent of any society, the middle class. So on the Cape, if you did not buy your house before the mid 80's like I did and work as I and my wife do, in education, which has never been seen as a real money making occupation, you cannot afford to live here.

Cape Cod, the land of sun, surf, clean air and the ultra rich and the ultra poor with little or no one in between.

[Joe]

If ya can't beat em' start a dog-walking service or car detailing business....

[fishpoopoo]

Don't foget that energies like crude oil, heating oil, natural gas, and unleaded gasoline are traded on futures exchanges around the globe.

Commodity futures have attracted a lot of hot money over the last few years. Many reasons, including speculators (correctly) anticipating sharply rising demand in China and India, as well as a desire to diversify investments beyond dollar-denominated paper assets like stocks and bonds, as the U.S. dollar increasingly loses value and purchasing power.

If you have $8,100, you can control a position of 1,000 barrels or 42,000 gallons of unleaded gasoline (regular, I think).

Each full penny fluctation per gallon translates to a $420 increase or decline.

Talk about leverage!

Trading futures is more fun than poker.

[zacs]

In certain areas the NIMBY effect is certainly huge, especially in the densely populated Bos-DC corridor, but overall, there are plenty of places in the US that would gladly have a refinery or 20, but the US Bureaucratic red-tape & regs do not make it worth the effort.

You put in 2-3 years work to get all the licences & permits, and in the end it doesn't go through because you forgot to dot one little "i." This is the bigger problem. It is the same reason our country lags so far behind in the world of aquaculture.

[fishpoopoo]

NIMBY is understandable. Think of all the nasty emissions from these things. Would you want to be living next to a plant that spews benzene, a known carcinogen?

[striperman36]

Originally Posted by ProfessorM

Than god I still got the tin boat too. I think the other boat will be sitting idle a lot this year. It is not the gas the boat uses but the tow vechile.

yeah, at 8 mpg towing you can here the meter running!!

[MAC]

Originally Posted by Bassturbed

NIMBY is understandable. Think of all the nasty emissions from these things. Would you want to be living next to a plant that spews benzene, a known carcinogen?

On something like a fuel processing plant maybe. But like Flap pointed towards the Cape........... Cape Wind Farm is one example......

Up near me they are proposing a new power station. (in Brockton)
I am not sure if it is supposed to be oil or gas fired but do know that it will bring much needed jobs to the area as well as benefit the area tax wise.

Well a local business owner is fighting it tooth and nail. (NIMBY)

He is siting claims about heavy metals and other contaminants being released into the area. He tries to make people believe he is fighting for the City, not his business interest according to the article in tonites Enterprise. We'll see how this works out in the long run.

[fishpoopoo]

here's an example of NIMBY that we would probably all agree to.

right now, hydro turbines are all the rage.

they utilize tidal currents to generate electricity. kinda like how windmill farms use wind.

they are green in every respect ... except they happen to chop up aquatic life.

how many people here would allow such devices to be used to generate electricity ... if it meant that a few million striped bass or a good chunk of their forage get turned into chum?

(on the other hand, if it was 10,000 seals ...)

[mr electric]

wonder of I can fit all my gear on the bus to Narragansett?

[Raven]

welcome to S-B brother...

[Raven]

on CNN about $4.00 per gallon for gas... ect.

they said stocks of gasoline have dropped off
for the last 12 weeks... in a row

making it the lowest it has been since since 1956

1956

thats 50 years ago wtf????

[wheresmy50]

Bassturbed - Yeah, Benzene. I can see it now, Joe Townie snuffing out his cigarette on the way into meeting where he'll complain about possible emissions.

People are full of chit.

[RoyL]

It cost me $109 to fill the tank in van last week, now I leave my full time job to do the fishing academy in june & I almost don't make enough to get by on that. If these prices continue i'll be riding around Boston on my bike and fishing for carp in the charles river.....Not what I was planning to do.

[Smokey14]

they can put a wind turbine in my backyard. in fact if I could get the permits I'd do it my self.

[5 String Bass]

Sounds like the Saudi's may have won the war on terror. I'm terrorfied at the pump- that's for sure.

This price-fixing is BS.

[TommyTuna]

You would think the Oil Cos. with record profits would use that clout, cash, slush & hush money to build one little refinery somewhere in the US. We are such freakn sheep, we'll all keep moaning about prices and they'll keep the pipeline of supply tight. Whats to make them change? Another thought: You'd think after many years of having a "driving season" in America, inventory management would prevent/mitigate these gaps in supply. Gee, no again, what's the incentive and they'd give up profits.
I am ranting as I have to fill up to the tune of 400gal dsl at $3.plus at the dock soon..a freakn mortgage payment...on a soon to be lawn ornament.
IMHO
TT

[zimmy]

In my opinion we don't have to look any further than ourselves to blame for this. We enjoyed really cheap gas for over twenty years and bought vehicles that use it excessively. Repeatedly the congress voted against higher cafe standards and no one cared. We keep our heat at 70 and our computers on all day. For better or worse we never really change now because of what the future may bring. Go back 3 years and people that drove hybrids were environmental wackos. 5 years ago the vice president said it is unamerican to have to conserve. Things can change in a hurry. Its a free market and the industries follow the market trends. Ten years from now fuel economy will likely be dramatically higher by percentage than today because the market will force auto companies to adapt. Reliability aside, its already why Honda and Toyota are growing and the American companies are scrambling. I would like to see us consider the future impact of a variety of issues, but that doesn't happen (fisheries is one of the biggies and 20 years from now drinking water will be a huge problem). In the words of my grandfather, its the way humans are....

[fishpoopoo]

Originally Posted by zimmy

In the words of my grandfather, its the way humans are....

oh, i thought some 'tard was gonna pipe up and blame it all on Bush.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Bassturbed

oh, i thought some 'tard was gonna pipe up and blame it all on Bush.

Nah, he's too easy a target I is not THAT much of a simpleton. But since you called my bluff...

The environmental law blame is catagorically incorrect. In the short term environmental laws would have caused higher prices. However, if stricter standards on consumption and such that envirnmental wackos called for 30 years ago were implemented we would have had price stability, more efficiency so less demand and greater supply. Markets kinda like stability. In the long run it woulda been pretty close to even on a cost. But you can't explain that, so thats why the markets have to take care of it as we will see in the next few years. Oh we would also spend a bit less on health care if the wackos had there way. But yeah its not Bushes fault. I think I am in the wrong forum...

[zimmy]

Actually, I have reconsidered; its my wifes fault. If it weren't for her I wouldn't be 150 miles from the canal and use so much gas to drive. Actually if it wasn't for her I'd probably have a boat too and I would need a bigger truck to tow it so maybe its not all her fault this time

[fishpoopoo]

why hasn't one single new refinery been permitted in the last few decades?

[Raven]

our refinneries are still in such a mess....then our military or national guard should be assisting the process and not wasting their time and resources in IRAQ. When the hell are we gonna do something for AMERICA and not for every other country on the planet !!!

if they want our help....fine then pay us in oil. the thought of their government going on vacation for 60 days....is completely outrageous.

Now maybe the three auto makers in trouble (and being out gunned by hybrid vehicles) might need until 2020 to catch up to toyota's sales...
but not to implement hybrid technology now.... thats a done deal...

SO....to get our cars to get 35 miles to the gallon is one thing....
but to outfit them with the new batteries and make them hybrids
it's all been figured out. buy one of the suped up battery powered vehicles ( that started out as a hybrid and then got an upgrade so it's like a super electric vehicle....) and copy it... J H Christ....
there's way to many friggan excuses....!!!

one thing that hasn't been done yet....which could make a huge difference
in fuel consumption...over-all... is to make traffic lights smarter so that people are not sitting at redlights waiting for no one to cross the road.

[Raven]

if you watched the discovery channel on yellowstone....
and realize that the volcano underneath that area is big enough to END America.... then F president Teddy's plan of keeping it totally a wilderness area....and tap that resource to provide America with more power that doesn't require nuclear energy... and the resulting pollution.

this country could easily be run on steam and it would be clean !!!!!