Comment on Bush's speech last night

[spence]

I'll skip the myriad of issues from Bush's "non-political" reflections on 9/11 last night

But instead post this question.

If Iraq really is the "central front on the War on Terror", that our strategy is to "fight them there so we don't have to fight them here", that the War on Terror does indeed "represent the primary idiological struggle of the 21st century", that "this is World War III" etc...

...then why did they execute the war on the cheap and fail to plan for the post Saddam insurgency most experts predicted?

I'm really at a loss as to how people can brush this off as a few mistakes when the price of failure was clear at the start.

Please discuss...

-spence

[stormfish]

Kinda sound like what Kerry was telling America...

[slapshot]

All Kerry told America was that he fought in Vietnam and that he had a plan. Whether or not he actually had a plan is debateable, but he was not able to convince most Americans that he had one. Now it seems that the democrat party wants nothing to do with him.

And I don't know what failure you are talking about? There is going to be a fight, no matter what. In the past 5 years the administration has managed to keep the fight elsewhere. Last month they were able to stop a plot to hijack and destroy 10 international flights into America. That is a sucess in my mind. Funny how that victory is quickly forgotten (because the media downplays it).

[Skitterpop]

Originally Posted by slapshot

All Kerry told America was that he fought in Vietnam and that he had a plan. Whether or not he actually had a plan is debateable, but he was not able to convince most Americans that he had one. Now it seems that the democrat party wants nothing to do with him.

And I don't know what failure you are talking about? There is going to be a fight, no matter what. In the past 5 years the administration has managed to keep the fight elsewhere. Last month they were able to stop a plot to hijack and destroy 10 international flights into America. That is a sucess in my mind. Funny how that victory is quickly forgotten (because the media downplays it).

I thought that was a British thing?

[stripersnipr]

I think the point that post Saddam Iraq planning was deficient has become almost moot at this time as has the original justification for the Iraq war. The focus now must be on the current situation on all fronts of the Terror War. Whether Iraq is the central front of this war on Terror is debateable put it is certainly a front of the war. Monday morning quarterbacking takes away from that focus and is detrimental to Americas security. If we cannot replicate the focus and unity this country displayed in WWII our chances of defeating this proven enemy are small.

[Raven]

read about the "with my family looking iraqi husband ", with his beard all shaved off who said... "he drives around with his family to not get caught or shot...
so he can be out planting i .e .d.'s and he's always home for dinner!"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
.......thinking about that ...is why the war cannot be fought on their terms........We have more than adequate firepower and military strength
to defeat the enemy times ten....or twenty...but when they are intermingled with the general population of so-called civilians then it becomes just a con game.... of who's who....

this means that wives and children are participating also whether coherced or volentary ...........nobody knows....

with that strategy: on their own turf, they have the supreme advantage which we shouldn't be giving to them...

when we do finally leave Iraq , everyone ...men, woman and children will be jumping up and down celebrating....like on day 1 when sadamn's statue got pulled down..

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

I think the point that post Saddam Iraq planning was deficient has become almost moot at this time as has the original justification for the Iraq war. The focus now must be on the current situation on all fronts of the Terror War. Whether Iraq is the central front of this war on Terror is debateable put it is certainly a front of the war. Monday morning quarterbacking takes away from that focus and is detrimental to Americas security. If we cannot replicate the focus and unity this country displayed in WWII our chances of defeating this proven enemy are small.

Well, since this is the only post that even hints at responding to my initial post I'll start here.

How is it moot? The President's own words seem quite contradictory, with themselves and reality.

This isn't Monday morning quarterbacking, I'm trying to understand the real strategy so we can improve it. If this is a "spin in process" perhaps we need to assess our position and options.

-spence

[slapshot]

Yes they were arrested over there, but the focus of the attack was the United States with US carriers. US intelligence had a hand in the operation.

The success was not because of compromise, diplomacy or understanding why our enemy hates us.

[Skitterpop]

Originally Posted by slapshot

Yes they were arrested over there, but the focus of the attack was the United States with US carriers. US intelligence had a hand in the operation.

The success was not because of compromise, diplomacy or understanding why our enemy hates us.

I thought it was almost all British and the plan was to detonate over the water?

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by Skitterpop

I thought it was almost all British and the plan was to detonate over the water?

The plan was to detonate over major US cities. British and US Intell had a huge part in stopping this. And i even heard secret wire tapping was involved! Oh my god not that!

You just can't give the US intell any credit can you?

Anyone who thinks the US is no safer since the 9/11 attacks five years ago is in denial. We have taken out and captured MANY senior Al-Queada members in the last five years, and stopped many terroists plots. Yet we are not safer?? I credit the Government big time for this. Wether you support or hate Bush with a passion, you can't deny he has taken the fight to the terroists, and captured and killed god knows how many Al-Queada members. The goverment is doing thier job in protecting America, and taking the fight to the terroists, the fight they %$%$%$%$ing started i might add!

[Skip N]

I'm sick of all the Monday morning quarterbacks. Do you know how many plans got %$%$%$%$ed up in WWII?? More than anyone can count i'm afraid. Remember Operation Market Garden? A total %$%$%$%$ up in Intell, and it turned into a bloody defeat for the allies in Holland. Intell said the germans in the area were mostly old men and boys, turned out to be hard core SS troops. Nothing in war goes perfect, thier will be %$%$%$%$ ups. It sucks, but it's reallity.

Even Spence, Mr. Perfect, couldn't come up with a perfect plan. It just doesnt happpen! You have to asses the situation on the ground as it is NOW. And go from there. This coulda, woulda, shoulda, is really getting old and tiring.

[Skitterpop]

Skip...as usual ..... " I can never give US Intel any credit".... where do you get that from my brief post? You just make up stuff and whip it out there.

The discovery of the plan and dealing with it was largely British and US Intel was called on it.... I missed the detonating over US city thing.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We are creating more terrorists by our war with Iraq. Not that they don`t have some terrorists but are not most of the current leading terrorists from Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, and Palestine.... not to mention all the other countries with Muslim terrorists at the helm or working on it.Or the non Muslim countries with terrorists.

If we said we needed to build military bases in Iraq to further our interests in that region and we hoped to get a bunch of oil for $7 dollars less a barrel than the larger market charges our war there would be more open and honest.


I look forward to your interpretation of my thoughts as always .

[Flaptail]

The spin doctor's on W's team must be getting hard up for new material.

[Skitterpop]

Agent infiltrated terror cell, U.S. says

Air travel in chaos after plot to bomb airliners exposed


Friday, August 11, 2006; Posted: 3:33 p.m. EDT (19:33 GMT)

var clickExpire = "-1";

var cnnStoryUrl = 'http://robots.cnn.com/2006/US/08/10/us.security/index.html';var cnnDisplayDomesticCL = 1; var cnnDisplayIntlCL = 1;



SPECIAL REPORT







WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Terrorists were in the "final stages" of a plot to simultaneously blow up as many as 10 jets leaving Britain for the U.S., sending the planes and thousands of passengers into the Atlantic Ocean, U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said Thursday.
British and Pakistani authorities teamed up to thwart the attacks, and 24 men were arrested in overnight raids in Britain, authorities said.
An undercover British agent infiltrated the group, giving the authorities intelligence on the alleged plan, several U.S. government officials said.

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by Skitterpop

I look forward to your interpretation of my thoughts as always .

Why bother? it's the same BS you spew all the time. If we use your logic for the war on terror, the US can never take the fight to the enemy overseas, after all, if we go after the enemy in a middle eastern country, we will only cause anger and and create more terroists right? So i guess the US must sit around and do nothing so we don't cause more poeple to hate us? Actually we tried that before, we tried ignoring the threat of terroism, and guess what happend? 3000 americans we're slaughtered in cold blood 5 years ago yesterday. And now people like you imply we can't go after the terroists, because it might casue more people to hate us? You havent learned a damn thing about terroism after 9/11.

Dude, thats some crazy ass thinking! Using your logic, we can't go anywhere to fight the radical muslims who want to do us harm!

Thank god someone like you will NEVER be in the White House running the show.

[stormfish]

So if we're winning... When will the war end?

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by stormfish

So if we're winning... When will the war end?

We need to be prepared to fight this war for a very long time.

[Skitterpop]

Originally Posted by stormfish

So if we're winning... When will the war end?

Never... this will be the Mother of all long hauls but we have no choice now do we.

[BassyiusMaximus]

I like to think that since 2001, there have been no acts of terrorism in the US. Can we agree to that? I almost have no choice but to believe that our government is doing all it can to protect this country and I do feel safe. Then again, when I am in the woods riding my dirtbike and snowmobile in circles with other like-minded grown men, I am still on the lookout for any terrorists and still feel safe. Likewise when I'm on the water, I'm always looking out and still feel safe.

I have to believe that there are people out there, like in the movies, who are making sure that no bad elements are entering the US.

I also have to look at it this way. There could be those who come to the US with the intention of doing harm to its people. It could be that the spend some time in the country, whether they visit the city or the country, they might see that they are able to walk freely in the streets and for the most part, do not have to worry one single bit about anyone doing them harm. They might see kids of all ages, all races, ethnicities, all going to school together, playing together and think 'This country is not so bad after all.', and abandon their ideas of doing harm to the citizens of the USA. I have to believe this, I have no choice.

[Swimmer]

Who said they failed to plan for the post Saddam insurgency other than us. Maybe they knew all along what was going to occur, that is: all the other nations sending thier people to fight us in the streets of Bagdad that hate us. They will run our of dopes who think they will get 72 virgins in heaven eventually. We have to remember that Saddam let 100,000 people out of prison before we arrived in Bagdad and it has been said that most of those were people who IQ was under 70. Where do you think they are?

[slapshot]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

We have to remember that Saddam let 100,000 people out of prison before we arrived in Bagdad and it has been said that most of those were people who IQ was under 70. Where do you think they are?

How did the democrats wind up in Sadam's prison?

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by slapshot

How did the democrats wind up in Sadam's prison?

[slapshot]

I guess it depends on where you get the news from.

Here is an excerpt from the BBC that quotes Tony Blair. While it doesn't say where the planes were to be detonated, it does say that the US intelligence was involved.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4778575.stm

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by slapshot

I guess it depends on where you get the news from.

Here is an excerpt from the BBC that quotes Tony Blair. While it doesn't say where the planes were to be detonated, it does say that the US intelligence was involved.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4778575.stm

Every report I heard on the matter shared credit with US, British, and Pakistani intelligence.

[Skitterpop]

1. I never said US Intel was`nt involved.....I did say it was mainly British ......but the US was called in on the side to assist.

2. Did we go to war with Iraq because there were terrorists there?

3. People fighting back are now terrorists? With this reasoning we are terrorists.

4. I think we should fight and destroy real terrorists who attack us or espouse the agenda that we should be killed.... which will keep us more than busy forever.

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by Skitterpop

4. I think we should fight and destroy real terrorists who attack us or espouse the agenda that we should be killed.... which will keep us more than busy forever.

The ones in Iraq harming our troops arent "real" enough for ya? Try telling that to our troops, they might disagree with ya on that!

Should the the US only be aloud to attack terrorists that attack us first??? God i hope you're not going there. Gee, let's wait till we get wacked again before we attack them. Yikes!

[stripersnipr]

Just wondering.........but does anyone actually believe that we should cease violent action against Terrorism?

[stripersnipr]

Spence I think the overall strategy is pretty clear. Damage the groups and individuals who wish and plan harm to America to the point that they are incapable of executing a viable attack. The subsets of that strategy are highly complicated ranging from protecting our troops on the ground to creating a Democratic stronghold in the Mideast and many components in between. The tactics to achieve the goals of our strategies are and must be fluid and robust as all strategies and tactics in all wars are. The specifics of those subset strategies as always will be developed and executed by those whose job it is to do so. You and I are not empowered to specifically develop or improve those strategies. Our power lies in our voting rights, and in support of the Democracy which i believe in I'm willing to let our elected officials do their job whatever their political party affiliation is. If and when the actions they take don't agree with my position on the issue then I will consider that the next time I excercise that right to vote.

The reason we went into Iraq is now moot because the fact is we are there. Debating and second guessing the justification is done and complete and those on both sides have made up their minds. Rather than continuing that debate its time to refocus on the matters at hand.

As far as the Presidents words seeming to be contradictory I'm not sure to what you are refering. There is no doubt in my mind that Bush is a poor communicator but it doesn't change the fact that he is President for the next however many days.

Somewhere within a compilation of your ideas and opinions and my ideas and opinions lies the solution that will defeat our common enemy and it is our job to elect the officials that best represent that idea. I think the time to debate the History of this war is when the war is History. It is time now to support Iraq until the point that they are capable of supporting themselves against foreign insurgents and Terrorism. By doing this we have created a new ally in the War on Terror.

I think that you will agree that a unified stand on Americas part is required to win this first of its kind War. I think the often maligned "Stay the course" is misunderstood. In my thinking stay the course means maintaining unrelenting pressure on our enemy even though the tactics used to do so will change as the situation requires.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

but it doesn't change the fact that he is President for the next however many days.

417 Days 18 Hours 50 Minutes 14...13....12...11...10.....

But who's counting

http://thebushcountdown.com/

[stormfish]

"Let's count on it!"