Bottle Popper vs Cigar Popper

[iamskippy]

Just wanted to get some thoughts around the effectiveness of the Bottle popper vs the cigar style popper.

From what i have seen the Bottle popper like Super Strikes seems to be the more popular style, but i have had success with the cigar style as well.

I am interested to hear the thoughts around which is more effective and why.

[spence]

Bottle poppers are ugly.

-spence

[numbskull]

The bottle shape casts better.
I suspect the straight shape fishes a bit better, but that's not said with any confidence.

I will say that poppers are deceptively difficult plugs to "get right".

The face angle, cup depth, and even line tie position have significant effects. The weighting scheme also seems more subtle than I anticipated. Tail heavy casts best, but belly weighted work better.

It is easy to make a plug that pops, but getting one that does so at the right speed and without tumbling is not so easy, and getting one that swims as well as pops is downright difficult.

Finally, cutting a wide shallow face on the larger ones causes me all kinds of issues. Deep faces are easy, but often create too much resistance.

[Charleston]

Weight a bottle so it slightly tail down at rest. This requires some tail weight and some belly weight. Then cut your face angle so it is at right angles to the surface of the water.
This method allows you to chug the plug, pop it vigorously or try to give is a slow "swim" A very effective bottle!

Chug the plug!

[stripercrazy]

coming from ri and near the atom's factory...I never understood why people spent the extra money on gibbs Polaris poppers...years later I found the gibbs bottle poppers were easyer for conv tackle they floated.....I don't think the fish care....but I seem to do better with atom( cigar) type popper each year

[Pete F.]

I want my poppers to swim.
Super strike 2-3/8 oz is close to perfect.
I am told that the Atoms and Frech straight ones swim also.
Just don't use them at night!
Or on Pike

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

I want my poppers to swim.
Super strike 2-3/8 oz is close to perfect.

I agree. The Frechs I made did not but I suspect I cupped the face too much. Also, the super strike was likely an accident. The larger and smaller styles don't swim as well. The large atom and big rebel poppers supposedly swam. I'll bet the large original three hook Gibbs popper did as well but I've never tried getting one wet.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by numbskull

cutting a wide shallow face on the larger ones causes me all kinds of issues. Deep faces are easy, but often create too much resistance.

when i started fishing all i had was a striper swiper on a solid fiberglass rod and a blue
cut my line... and that equalled no more fishing except for chunkin.
(no cash for plugs then )

but,
i was addicted to the top water hit.... and seeing the big ol trash can

So, i collected ash tool handles from the trash and took them to the school wood shop lathe
and cut a bunch in a row end to end on each ash handle... later i sawed them into plug sections.

to cut my cup face:
i'd wrap the plug in a rag and clamp it in the bench vice and then using a
large 3/4 inch rasp bit in a hand held heavy drill i'd burn it in until it was Black (smoking) and it made the wood even harder
-never sealed them or weighted them
and the bass chewed -em up in the 70's -those were the days

[Eric Roach]

I wasn't familiar with the Frech WY popper so I Googled it and came across a scanned reprint of an article from Frech in The Fisherman magazine. The plans for the popper are in it. In the article he mentions it swims.

I think I'll make up a couple. Looks like fun. (Not sure how much fun cupping birch will be but I'll give it a shot.)

[PNG]

Originally Posted by Eric Roach

I wasn't familiar with the Frech WY popper so I Googled it and came across a scanned reprint of an article from Frech in The Fisherman magazine. The plans for the popper are in it. In the article he mentions it swims.

I think I'll make up a couple. Looks like fun. (Not sure how much fun cupping birch will be but I'll give it a shot.)

Birch is very agreeable

[iamskippy]

Eric, i saw your post with that , but i wasnt sure if i was understanding the weighting, is that a slug in the face and the tail as well as 2 in the belly?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Eric Roach]

I was thinking the same thing when I first saw the schematic, but if you read the article he mentions he doesn't prefer through-drilling; instead he epoxies lead sinker eyes into the lure for head, tail & belly eyes. Those are the voids to receive them.

[iamskippy]

Hmmmm
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Eric Roach

I wasn't familiar with the Frech WY popper so I Googled it and came across a scanned reprint of an article from Frech in The Fisherman magazine. The plans for the popper are in it. In the article he mentions it swims.

I think I'll make up a couple. Looks like fun. (Not sure how much fun cupping birch will be but I'll give it a shot.)

Regrind a speedbore bit to the curve you want. Make the pilot round so it follows the thru hole. If you feel compelled to make it really smooth you will have more work to do.

[Eric Roach]

How do I regrind a speedbore bit?

I like what Frech's friend did: Heat the hell out of a carraige bolt head and burn the cup into the face.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Pete F.]

Actually, it would be grind. I just do it with a wheel chucked in my drill press, holding the bit in my hand. Make the shape you want and with a little bevel you have a cutting edge. The more symmetrical you make it, the smoother it cuts.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Actually, it would be grind. I just do it with a wheel chucked in my drill press, holding the bit in my hand. Make the shape you want and with a little bevel you have a cutting edge. The more symmetrical you make it, the smoother it cuts.

The problem with this is that it forces you to cut the cup parallel to the body and through hole, when good poppers have the cup cut parallel to the face slope.

There are large round inflatable sanding bulbs with specially shaped sandpaper cups for shaping wooden spoons, but they are expensive and look like they'd clog up too fast.

Gibbs reportedly used a stack of some sort of narrow slitting saw blades of different diameters to form a large diameter curved molding blade, but if and where you can get those I've no idea.

[stripermaineiac]

I've been using the Atom 2 oz popper since the 70's. I've tried a bunch of times to copy it and its not all that easy. It is still one of my best go to plugs. I've landed some huge stripers on them and if worked right will out fish just about anything out there. as far as using them at night well I always do and have landed some nice fish on them on those nights the bass seem to be closed mouthed.I learned that poppers at night work great. The belly weight in them makes them swim nice. Just hold on in the current and you'll see they swim as good as many of the good swimmers out there.

[Eric Roach]

George: In your opinion, what size sphere do you think would give the appropriate cup depth in a Frech-sized popper (1⅛")?

For arc comparisons, below are relative spheres at 1", 1½" and 2".

[Eric Roach]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Actually, it would be grind. I just do it with a wheel chucked in my drill press, holding the bit in my hand. Make the shape you want and with a little bevel you have a cutting edge. The more symmetrical you make it, the smoother it cuts.

I have to admit that I don't think I could pull this off.

[Pete F.]

I'll try and take a pic of a bit tonite if i can find one in the drop zone I call a shop.

[Charleston]

When I would cut a popper face I put the ball rasp in the drill chuck in my lathe. I then held the plug in my right hand and shaped the popper face. Doing it this way allows you to go any depth you want, any diameter. Even shape the face to an oval plug body and have the same land area all around the cup. Start by hitting the center of the face with a forstner bit. This gives the ball rasp a good bite. Be careful, if you slip your knuckle skin stays on the ball rasp.

[Eric Roach]

Originally Posted by Charleston

When I would cut a popper face I put the ball rasp in the drill chuck in my lathe...

Hi Bill. I do the same thing in the drill press, but the largest sphere I have is 1" and I always go too deep trying to keep the cup even when attempting to keep it shallow. A bigger sphere sure would make it easier.

[Eric Roach]

Originally Posted by Eric Roach

...I like what Frech's friend did: Heat the hell out of a carriage bolt head and burn the cup into the face.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I'm quoting myself here, but...I picked up a 1/2" carriage bolt today to get an idea what kind of arc a 1/2" carriage bolt with a 1" head has on it. After taking some measurements, the arc on the head is approximate to a 1.8" sphere.

I looked at the inflatable bulb numbskull referenced above at Woodcraft; it's 1¾" in diameter. The employees let me assemble it with a sanding sleeve and it just didn't look like a symmetrical sphere if you sanded the piece at an angle, which you'd have to do because there's no sanding material dead-center. The sphere, pump and sleeves were about $75 as well -- too expensive an experiment.

I came across a website where a guy shows how to make sanding spheres out of foam, with sanding pads attached via Velcro. For bowls and such, I can see where the flexibility of foam is needed, but for a popper face sanded into birch I would think you'd need solid backing. I'm thinking of trying to create one from birch using the Velcro idea to attach a spiral-cut sanding pad.

[iamskippy]

This is a great thread, thanks to everyone for your input and work so far, its making me want to make a cigar popper!
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Eric Roach

George: In your opinion, what size sphere do you think would give the appropriate cup depth in a Frech-sized popper (1⅛")?

For arc comparisons, below are relative spheres at 1", 1½" and 2".

I'd be looking for 4" diameter. The cup is at an angle so it needs to cover more than 1 1/8 ". The Gibbs polaris has a very shallow cup.
Too deep and the plug grabs too quickly and tends to cartwheel or chug.

Someone on SOL years back posted a system where they turned a ball between centers on their lathe (think of a baseball with a dowel through it) then glued sandpaper onto the ball and shaped their poppers. I tried it but couldn't get the sandpaper to stay on the curved surface very long.

As for shaping by hand, I find the rasp grabs as I come across one quadrant of the plug and ruins things. Trying to use a guide doesn't work since the face is at an angle and unless you want a face to match the balls diameter you have to swing the plug while you rotate it.

Possibly there is a shaper cutter out there that would work, but I've not found it.

[stripercrazy]

I use a cove bit with the bearing taken off in my drill press......works good for me

[Eric Roach]

George: I just took a look at a 3.5 oz Gibbs Polaris.; you’re weren’t kidding, that is a very shallow cup. The head is about 1.25” thick here. I’m sure there is some variation, but on mine there is a perfectly circular, 1.125” cup sanded into the slanted face. It’s approximately .140” deep. Approximately a 4.5” sphere would be needed to create that arc, so that was a good estimation.

Using the Polaris as a guide, a 1.125” circumference popper (like the W-Y) would call for a cup 1” wide, which would leave a 1/16” rim around the middle of the slanted face. Proportionally, the cup depth should be about .126” which calls for a sphere approximately 2.5”.

Frech mentions in the article the importance of making his poppers exactly the same, but I imagine he had some variation because he tooled the cup by hand. It would be great to see an original W-Y to get a better idea of the cup, but I guess it's time to start experimenting with the cupped face to see if it's possible to get a copy to mimic the differing actions (including swimming) he mentions in the article.

[Eric Roach]

BTW, Skippy -- sorry to walk all over your thread.

[iamskippy]

Originally Posted by Eric Roach

BTW, Skippy -- sorry to walk all over your thread.

No need to apologize my friend i am happy there is this much activity, allot of what i was trying to figure out/understand along with what i was thinking about is coming out, i love it keep it coming.