TWO BASS FOR RI CHARTER AND PARTY BOATS?

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Lots of resentment, it seems, from the 6 pack guys. Do you really, genuinely believe that bookings will take a meaningful drop if the limit is 1 fish per angler? I'm no expert on the clientele of 6-packs. All I know is my college friends and I go once a year for a reunion, we keep our limit. If the limit is cut in half, it would never even cross my mind not to go.

I am sure there are SOME clients who won't go if it's 1 fish. Is it a meaningful number? And how many clients will you get if the stock collapses and you get skunked half the time? This fall, we almost didn't go because the captain ( a very honest guy) told us how lousy the bass fishing was, so we fished for sea bass most of the day.

Looks to me like everyone wants to get as much cash as they can before the well is dry.

I can't see why someone on a charter boat has a right to more fish than the recreational guy in his own boat. I just can't see how anyone justifies that.

Jim, They see it as a BOOM for business if it is 2 fish, because there will be a reward if you book a charter as opposed to going by yourself... if you go by yourself off the rocks, you can keep 1, but if you pay the piper and go on a charter, you can keep 2! Or, better yet for the captain, he can still sell his paying fare's unwanted catch on the commercial market or black market just the way he has been for years. .



This is corruption at the core.

[Nebe]

I guarantee you all that this issue is not about wether the charter fleet will loose money, its the prospects of making more money and the black market has a strong influence here as well.. That is where the real money will be lost.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Jim, They see it as a BOOM for business if it is 2 fish, because there will be a reward if you book a charter as opposed to going by yourself... if you go by yourself off the rocks, you can keep 1, but if you pay the piper and go on a charter, you can keep 2! Or, better yet for the captain, he can still sell his paying fare's unwanted catch on the commercial market or black market just the way he has been for years. .



This is corruption at the core.

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That's total BS and shows the disdain you have for charter captains

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I guarantee you all that this issue is not about wether the charter fleet will loose money, its the prospects of making more money and the black market has a strong influence here as well.. That is where the real money will be lost.

In the case of the Stellwagon guys , there is little left to fish for . Catch shares crushed the cod , and they don't have scup, sea bass, etc .
This is about surviving not boosting business .
You don't have a clue
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[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by thefishingfreak

1@28" will achieve the exact same outcome as 2@33", a 25% reduction.
Given the choice, I will ask for 2@33".

Somehow that gets me labeled as a blind greedy black market fish monger hellbent on the destruction of the fishery.

the so called experts may say it's the same outcome(although I think it is over a longer period of time) but I am not buying into that at all. I don't see how allowing 2 fish is more conservative than 1 fish just because the size limit is raised by 5 inches, big deal , it still kills 2 fish, that is twice as many, granted it protects the population of undersize fish but once they reach 33", they'll be killed too.

I don't know about your label there, but being in the business one would think you would want the bass to be plentiful and sustainable rather than just at the brink of collapse.
I just don't agree with having a choice for s special group, I see no need for it.

I wonder if those fisheries expert scientist or whatever they are take into account all the losses like from predators, disease, starvation, poachers. I think they are tossing out educated guesses and can put the numbers where they see fit.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

the so called experts may say it's the same outcome(although I think it is over a longer period of time) but I am not buying into that at all. I don't see how allowing 2 fish is more conservative than 1 fish just because the size limit is raised by 5 inches, big deal , it still kills 2 fish, that is twice as many, granted it protects the population of undersize fish but once they reach 33", they'll be killed too.

I don't know about your label there, but being in the business one would think you would want the bass to be plentiful and sustainable rather than just at the brink of collapse.
I just don't agree with having a choice for s special group, I see no need for it.

I wonder if those fisheries expert scientist or whatever they are take into account all the losses like from predators, disease, starvation, poachers. I think they are tossing out educated guesses and can put the numbers where they see fit.

Fair enough .
I'm sure the science is seriously flawed . It always is .
That is why putting people out of work needs to be factored in .
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[thefishingfreak]

Charter boats have historically had special regs on many different species of fish from seabass & scup to tuna. This is nothing new
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[stripermaineiac]

LOL here's the problem 25% reduction is a joke. Sad as it sounds the science is flawed as no one listens to those out there fishing. You want to really see the Charter line go look at the Pic galleries an see for yourself. we are the problem. Everyone wants as much of the pie as they can get. No matter the consequences. Look at the Cod. MMMM They're talking no recreational take at all. Why do you think a lot of the Charters want to have more fish. During the moritorium there were still a load of charter boats out there. How many Charters keep every fish that come's on board? Most go back in.Many dead. I don't know the perfect answer but whats goin on now isn't it. Look at the Tuna,cod,monk fish,tommy cod,kilie fish,harbor pollack an so on. Oh mackeral now added.We are the problem. We spend too much time tryin to undermine any posetive action for selfishness. Yup SAD. If we did what needs to be done-Whats best for the fish- things would get better across the board.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by buckman

In the case of the Stellwagon guys , there is little left to fish for . Catch shares crushed the cod , and they don't have scup, sea bass, etc .
This is about surviving not boosting business .
You don't have a clue
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I think the problem is I have too much of a clue, as I know people who work on charters and have taken charters and see this stuff happen.

1 fish will not hurt the industry. People will still pay to fish.
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[Got Stripers]

Clearly this is a heated topic and I'd be a fool to suggest I truly understand all the science, but what I do know is this is the first season since I've fished for striped bass where I didn't catch a single keeper. Now I need to qualify that statement, because about 8 years ago I changed the way I fished, but I still think my experience is just as valid a sampling as any other. Why, because I'm fishing the same waters I've always fished, with primarily the same tactics I've always used and my days for 8 years all have pretty much started the same way. I'd launch in Westport with the sun just about to pop up and I'd fish a milk run of ledges with plastic to see if I could catch some bass before the sun came up and I switched over to deeper water to drift and jig for eaters.

Ten years ago, I'd catch several dozen stripers, with multiple keepers each and every morning I'd go out; all before the sun got to high in the sky. At the end of the day, I could absolutely count on hens and chickens ledge to give up as many more smaller fish as I felt I had the energy to catch. Each and every year since, I've seen a dramatic decline in the numbers of fish and specifically those 28-36 inch keepers, which would routinely clobber my plastic in between schoolies.

I suspect I'd have to work long days and target only stripers to even have a chance at even catching a third of what I did ten years back. There were a few years around 2006 to 2008, where I could have filled my boat with keepers and schoolies; I'd catch them all day long while jigging and drifting for black sea bass off Gay Head and the sound. Those couple of years were such fun, one drift your nailing 30-40 lb stripers, then the 12-15lb blues would move in, with black sea bass and fluke in between. That same offshore structure for the past 4 years hasn't given up a single day that even comes close.

Catch them to make a living, catch them until they are gone, then go get a job in the trades. Certainly I'm not saying charters are to blame, everyone targeting and harvesting stripers is to blame, we all collectively own the responsibility to turn it around or we can all continue to rape the resource until we have a moratorium.

I know people depend on charters for a living and I feel for them. I know fishing is a long tradition in New England and trust me having just finished Fatal Forecast by Michael Tougias, I understand it's a hard tough life and to see restrictions put on how you can support your family makes it tougher. If I were in the business I'd be looking at other means of making the boat make money, because I see the writing on the wall and proactive measures are far better than reactive ones.

I plan to make my contribution by not harvesting bass, I hope others will do the same. I can't control the weather, the black market for fish, the fact that other cultures couldn't give a rat's ass about our regulations or that the politicians are listening to anyone without deep pockets; but I can do my part.

Tight lines to all, but many species are a lot of fun with the right gear.

[thefishingfreak]

Originally Posted by stripermaineiac

LOL here's the problem 25% reduction is a joke. Sad as it sounds the science is flawed as no one listens to those out there fishing. You want to really see the Charter line go look at the Pic galleries an see for yourself. we are the problem. Everyone wants as much of the pie as they can get. No matter the consequences. Look at the Cod. MMMM They're talking no recreational take at all. Why do you think a lot of the Charters want to have more fish. During the moritorium there were still a load of charter boats out there. How many Charters keep every fish that come's on board? Most go back in.Many dead. I don't know the perfect answer but whats goin on now isn't it. Look at the Tuna,cod,monk fish,tommy cod,kilie fish,harbor pollack an so on. Oh mackeral now added.We are the problem. We spend too much time tryin to undermine any posetive action for selfishness. Yup SAD. If we did what needs to be done-Whats best for the fish- things would get better across the board.

You don't know what you are talking about. what Jane lubchenco did to the cod in the Gulf of Maine allowing huge draggers to decimate the local cod is just easy for you to point fingers at. Why is there a large limit on cod south of ptown, georges bank and Rhodeisland? Is it Corruption? Or maybe a thriving fishery?
Mackerel? Harbor pollack? Tuna? Again you don't know what you are talking about.
They just increased the tuna quota. Obviously that was corruption also. The mackerel are from one end of the bank to the other and there are so many harbor pollack on jeffreys you cant get to the bottom.
the rod and reel permit for macs is 3 thousand pounds a DAY and pollack is 10 thousand pounds a DAY. Flawed science, Corruption and greed there? Or maybe just MAYBE another thriving fishery?

you are the ones who won't listen to the ones who are actually out there fishing every day.---->US.
you blame your lack of success on us instead of changing your tactics. No different then setting up a tree stand in the walmart parking lot and then complaining there are no deer there. because you refuse to go in the woods.
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[Nebe]

Thinking on this some more.......maybe there could be a trophy slot for charter boats. 1 fish 28 plus and one at 60 inches plus.
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[Nebe]

I would support that as a compromise.
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[Piscator]

Lets not forget those Seals and all the fish they need to eat to sustain themselves...their numbers continue to increase and there should be a culling of the heard on them too...lots of human and environmental impacts...some kind of human reduction appears to be needed and we can imapct that with some form of reduction (that we may all not agree on). Very hard to change the weather but we can make an impact to the habitat in the spawining areas as well as the number of gorging seals...politically there isn't anyone out there with enough balls to challenge the seal issue so until that is recognized it will also continue to be a big impact...they are everywhere these days...
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[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by buckman

If the targeted reduction in overall mortality is hit then what difference does it make who is allowed to catch what?
There are very few species left for the charters to target. A lot of these guys that come up and do a charter spend a ton of money in the areas and only do it once or twice a year
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So, one of the scenes of the biggest slaughter has been Block Island, RI, MA, CT and NY boats. How many of those fish are between 28" and 33" that would be released, and reduce the mortality?

My issue here is that it is a nominal reduction, but 2 @ 33" for most charters is the same mortality as 2 @ 28". I am not opposed to some of the splits; tautog in the fall in RI has been split regs for a while now, scup as well.

[Sea Dangles]

My guess is a lot of these commercial anglers with the big boats would be looking at the dock if it weren't for the customers willing to subsidize their hobby. And in reality it is a hobby for most here but they act like they are Gloucester.'s finest. I know there are folks out there trying to make a go of earning their keep just fishing with today's regulations. Tough future I would guess.
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

My guess is a lot of these commercial anglers with the big boats would be looking at the dock if it weren't for the customers willing to subsidize their hobby. And in reality it is a hobby for most here but they act like they are Gloucester.'s finest. I know there are folks out there trying to make a go of earning their keep just fishing with today's regulations. Tough future I would guess.
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Actually I agree with that . I'm one of the above but my son makes his living at it and a lot of seasoned guys that have seen more then most are hurting bad .
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[bobber]

Originally Posted by buckman

What I am saying is, if in the end , the targeted reduction is obtained ,then why would it really matter if the charterboats ,in order to maintain their businesses, be allowed to keep two per client? Is this about the health of the bass biomass or about tit for tat. I don't get to keep two so no one should .....
Sounds pretty damn immature to me
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the problem is that we are eroding the likelihood that the regs will actually attain the necessary reduction with every stinkin' loophole that gets added in to the mix. and by the time anything gets re-evaluated to see how the regs have worked, it'll be YEARS TOO LATE (kinda like this whole friggin mess is already.....)
I'm sympathetic to the challenge that headboats face, but this is the bed we've made for ourselves- now EVERYBODY has to adapt to the changes that are needed


or go extinct

[Dave Peros]

First off, congratulations to the Cape Cod Charter Boat Association for supporting the one fish at 28-inches regulation; it is clear that their membership is comprised of enlightened individuals who understand the need for everyone to do their part when it comes to striped bass conservation.
As far as the numerous inflammatory and derogatory comments tossed about in this thread by what appear to be charter captains and/or supporters of the industry, it really is getting old. I have been to the hearings and am growing tired of the intimidation tactics and name calling used by individuals and groups with economic interests in order to get their way. When an "industry" stubbornly adheres to methods that are not sustainable and/or harm the common good, then the principles of economics will cause some of those businesses who won't adapt to fail. On the other hand, those operations that do adapt will survive and even thrive.
I've seen it happen with local charter captains who sail out of ports along the southside of the Cape; when they saw that bass fishing was hurting, they elected to encourage their clientele to focus on other species such as sea bass and bluefish. Some even realized that the experience of catching mainly bass smaller than the legal limit for possession is enjoyable for their charters and a number adjusted their tactics to heighten the experience of fishing, as opposed to just catching and killing.
I suspected that once my original post was out there, I would hear the usual "stuff" about fly fishermen and Stripers Forever (which I am not a member of and have no intention of ever becoming). If you read it carefully, you will see that I do not single out those charter captains who feel the need to "max out" as the sole folks responsible for overfishing, but include recreational anglers who have to kill their limit each time they are on the water and the vast majority of "commercial" striped bass anglers who have no interest in stepping up to the plate and dealing with the realities faced by small boat fishermen who have dedicated their lives to working on the water as their sole source of income.
It is true that most of bass that remain in the Chesapeake are small males after the larger females and males join the coastal stock in the spring, but the much anticipated bumper "crop" of bass from the 2011 year class is already in harm's way since states such as Maryland and Virginia allow recreational and commercial fishermen to harvest 18-inch or larger stripers - which is what a large percentage of the 2011 population taped out at last year and those numbers will obviously increase in 2015.
The science has proven that the late fall and winter conditions in any given year in the Chesapeake definitely are a major factor in terms of the quality of that season's spawn - but controlling the weather is certainly not something humans can do to guarantee a healthy striped bass biomass.
But we can help to maintain the health of the striped bass stock in one way - and that is by killing less of them. Folks are realizing that they were snookered by the ASMFC Striped Bass Management Board this fall with their apparent decision to do just that. The commitment to a 25% reduction in the take of bass from the coastal stock was applauded by one and all, but the board was holding a trick card in the form of "conservation equivalency" that would allow deviation from the one at 28-inch pledge. While it may be true that a two fish at 33-inches bag limit will be somehow equivalent to the smaller limit in terms of numbers of fish killed, the chances of succeeding in meeting the primary goal of boosting the overall health of the stock are not equal.
In the end, the essence of "greed" is believing that it is OK for any single user group to harvest more fish to the detriment of the common good, meaning that the ASMFC has once again failed in its duty by allowing any consideration of different regulations for the charter fleet.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Dave Peros

In the end, the essence of "greed" is believing that it is OK for any single user group to harvest more fish to the detriment of the common good, meaning that the ASMFC has once again failed in its duty by allowing any consideration of different regulations for the charter fleet.

probably good to remember when talking about these reductions and arguing for exceptions that..according to the managers reports the agreed to reductions only have a 50% chance of achieving the intended results which is why many were working toward the 33% reduction given that this will not be revisited for 3 years.....

 If total harvest is reduced by 25% starting in the 2015 fishing year, there is a 50% probability1 F will be at or below its target level within one year.


 If total harvest is reduced by 17% starting in the 2015 fishing year, there is a 50% probability1 F will be at or below its target level within three years.

A 50% probability was the minimum recommended by the TC - a higher probability of being at or below the target
would require more restrictive management measures that achieve a higher reduction than the projections estimate is needed

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Thinking on this some more.......maybe there could be a trophy slot for charter boats. 1 fish 28 plus and one at 60 inches plus.
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how about...two fish per client.... but you don't get to use any electronics ....I bet that would work

[buckman]

Originally Posted by scottw

probably good to remember when talking about these reductions and arguing for exceptions that..according to the managers reports the agreed to reductions only have a 50% chance of achieving the intended results which is why many were working toward the 33% reduction given that this will not be revisited for 3 years.....

 If total harvest is reduced by 25% starting in the 2015 fishing year, there is a 50% probability1 F will be at or below its target level within one year.


 If total harvest is reduced by 17% starting in the 2015 fishing year, there is a 50% probability1 F will be at or below its target level within three years.

A 50% probability was the minimum recommended by the TC - a higher probability of being at or below the target
would require more restrictive management measures that achieve a higher reduction than the projections estimate is needed

Well at least we know they can do simple math 😀
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by buckman

Well at least we know they can do simple math ��
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I guess the point was that as we argue these scenarios, the solutions proposed and now adopted are only given a 50/50 chance of achieving the target and changing the direction of the stocks and that is as we become more efficient with each passing year at targeting and taking fish from the stock, seems there is a lot banking on a single year class to rebound the numbers at this point coupled with the possible change in the current trend with a reduction...this may be why some bristle when some argue for an exception....that simple math doesn't portend well for the near future under any scenario

hey....can/should shore guides(for hires) get the exception too and their clients be allowed to keep two fish....just something I've been wondering....

[thefishingfreak]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Lots of resentment, it seems, from the 6 pack guys.

No resentment here. If we get 2 fish we get 2 fish. If not that's fine. but that doesn't mean we can't ASK.

The true resentment here is from those who can't stand the thought of a special group possibly getting what they can't

[thefishingfreak]

Originally Posted by scottw

hey....can/should shore guides(for hires) get the exception too and their clients be allowed to keep two fish....just something I've been wondering....

Ask for yourself
paul.diodati@state.ma.us

[scottw]

Originally Posted by thefishingfreak

The true resentment here is from those who can't stand the thought of a special group possibly getting what they can't

I think it's more the fact that the need has not yet been demonstrated or articulated in a convincing way...

[Slipknot]

we're all selfish

[Sea Dangles]

I think the resentment here is between two differing philosophies. One which is unwilling to acknowledge the best interest of the species and is looking to get what they can despite the fact it imperils their future vs a group that has decided they can do without beating up a resource that is in decline by all accounts.
You have folks in a moneygrab that fail to understand why those who have volunteered to reduce catch are upset. This shows how dumb special groups can become when dollars obscure their view of the intent of the new regulations. This "get what I can" attitude is the reason for the decline of many stocks and is typical of an inner city,Obama loving,milk the system mentality.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

we're all selfish

yup....I'm very interested to hear the rationale however...

if someone could fill in the blank....might help better understand the perspective...

the recreational limit for stripers for 2015 is now 1@28"....we/our clients need an exception to be able to keep two fish because....

[Nebe]

Most if not all of the block island based charter boats support 1@28 and up.
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