TWO BASS FOR RI CHARTER AND PARTY BOATS?

[bobber]

the way I read it, he's just saying that taking 2 fish (regardless of size) cannot be same as taking 1 fish out of the system.
the suggestion that the 2nd fish- by being bigger than the 28" minimum- somehow decreases the impact on the fishery, is the part that doesn't make sense

[bobber]

how do the charter guys catching tarpon and sailfish and goliath grouper and (fill in the blank...) manage to stay in business?

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

You (and others) either deliberately misstate or don't understand the effect of charter boats (or any other mode of fishing) from going to conservational equivalancy. The real effect is that there will be no more (or less) fish killed with conservational equivalent regs as there would be with any 25% reduction in the harvest. That's what conservational equivalancy means. The ASMFC technical committee will have the last word on whether any proposal is the conservational equivalent of a 25% reduction. No one (except for those who don'understand the term or those being deliberately misleading) is saying that there will more fish killed.

I will type slowly so you understand....

Wtf does conservational equivalent have to do with what I just wrote. You are so confused you are having trouble with a simple question. My entire point was certain people are upset about the taking of 2 fish.
Jealous?
No,just upset.
Do I understand the voodoo math regarding how killing two 20 lb. fish has the same impact as killing one 15 lb. fish?
No,but that is not my point here. It seems common sense has taken a 25% reduction in this discussion.
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by bobber

how do the charter guys catching tarpon and sailfish and goliath grouper and (fill in the blank...) manage to stay in business?

We don't have those 😊
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

It seems common sense has taken a 25% reduction in this discussion.

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that was a GREAT line...

[buckman]

I think the problem here is that some want the fish to come back quick , no matter if some very good people ( yes honest guys have charter boats too ) get hurt in the process . It's simple not that the stock just fully recovers , it's gotta happen fast .
We are all above the pettiness , jealousy thing .
Correct ?
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[afterhours]

Question for charter guys- do your clients all take home their limits when caught or do you keep and sell any of their catch. Not busting stones, honest question.

[bobber]

you expect an "honest answer" to that? really?

[bobber]

Originally Posted by buckman

We don't have those ��
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I'm trying not to get too involved in this, since it really adds up to nothing in the big scheme of things.....


but c'mon- answer the question(!)

how is it that there are hundreds (thats a guess) of successful charter guys that manage to stay in business catching-and-releasing EVERY SINGLE fish they they bring in.... and you guys think that you need to kill twice as many fish as the rest of us.....?

do ya see my point?

[Got Stripers]

Reminds me of Eel Man, where is my old friend, oh I love a good debate.

[thefishingfreak]

It's not against the law to sell fish that your charters caught on a commercial day.
So yes, on Monday and Thursdays, a 6 pack boat with 8 people on board can kill 16 bass, give the Charter a 28" fish for the table, and sell all the remaining 15 fish (they must be over 34")
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by bobber

I'm trying not to get too involved in this, since it really adds up to nothing in the big scheme of things.....


but c'mon- answer the question(!)

how is it that there are hundreds (thats a guess) of successful charter guys that manage to stay in business catching-and-releasing EVERY SINGLE fish they they bring in.... and you guys think that you need to kill twice as many fish as the rest of us.....?

do ya see my point?

I was kidding and I do see your point. There is absolutely something to selling the experience.
But you cant equate catching a tarpon , sailfish or giant Goliath grouper to catching a striped bass.
Maybe the Cape charter fleet has a different clientele then we have here in Green Harbor . They probably depend more on families and people on vacation where as we depend on fisherman that are willing travel for the most part from New Jersey New York Connecticut or Pennsylvania for some fun and a chance to fill a cooler
Nobody's making that trip to catch a 28 inch bass . I'm sorry if this offends some, but it's just not that exciting .
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[buckman]

That being said we do push that they will have the opportunity to see a couple hundred seals
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[Raider Ronnie]

Originally Posted by afterhours

Question for charter guys- do your clients all take home their limits when caught or do you keep and sell any of their catch. Not busting stones, honest question.

Don,
I can't speak for every charter but for the most part more often than not charters I take out, they want their limit of meat !
We get our share of clients in town just for business and are getting back on a plane leaving Boston the next day, that I know won't want to keep fish, though I've had a handful that still want meat and I've packaged, froze & shipped overnight for them (crazy $ )
1st thing I do every trip (after safety drill speech) I ask them if they intend to keep fish.
In 10 years not of chartering I can probably count on 1 hand the number of times I've sold fish from charters.
If other charters have lots of clients that are willing to let them keep every fish that can be Legally sold on a commercial days after they shell out $600 - $1400 for the trip, I need to talk to them and learn how they talk them into it !
Anyone would be a fool not to if they can and it's legal.

[stripermaineiac]

The CE is how a slot limit of 22 to 26 of 1 fish or 1 trophy fish 40 in or bigger comes about like up in Maine. You still only get one fish. Weird part is they still list a commercial take in Maine where there is no Com allowed at all. It's one reason many of us just plain don't trust the rule makers. They build deceit into the process to twist the science.

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by bobber

how do the charter guys catching tarpon and sailfish and goliath grouper and (fill in the blank...) manage to stay in business?

I would guess they also have a much longer season than the guys that charter up this way...I'm not a in the charter business but I know a few charter boats in the Green Harbor area are for sale due to lower charters the last few years due to the Cod restrictions and they can't make ends meet. The customers are not coming like they used to for Cod due to the low bag limits (thanks to the draggers and catch share system that allowed the raping of Stellwagen Bank of Cod). I'm sure the guys that are left are concerned that they will be impacted even more due to the reduction on Bass and fighting for their business...they aren't full of #^&#^&#^&#^& if they are selling their boats, that is desperation. The guys I know are stand up guys and I believe them when they say the customers will not come like they used to (especially since they are being forced tongetbout of the business...now, do we need to do something?? YES we do. But to group all charter guys in one group and say they are full of BS isn't right, just the same as it isn't right to group all the Rec guys together.
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[thefishingfreak]

Originally Posted by stripermaineiac

The CE is how a slot limit of 22 to 26 of 1 fish or 1 trophy fish 40 in or bigger comes about like up in Maine. You still only get one fish. Weird part is they still list a commercial take in Maine where there is no Com allowed at all. It's one reason many of us just plain don't trust the rule makers. They build deceit into the process to twist the science.

Built in deceit? That 250 pounds shown from maine is the commercial yearly average from 1972-1979. Those are the base figures for commercial limits. And a history lesson


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[Raider Ronnie]

Dennis
Here is one out of Green Harbor.
http://downeastboatforum.com/free-cl...ale-11970.html
Same goes for some up in Gloucester.
Dave on Relentless was smart, saw the writing on the wall and sold out last year.

Originally Posted by Piscator

I would guess they also have a much longer season than the guys that charter up this way...I'm not a in the charter business but I know a few charter boats in the Green Harbor area are for sale due to lower charters the last few years due to the Cod restrictions and they can't make ends meet. The customers are not coming like they used to for Cod due to the low bag limits (thanks to the draggers and catch share system that allowed the raping of Stellwagen Bank of Cod). I'm sure the guys that are left are concerned that they will be impacted even more due to the reduction on Bass and fighting for their business...they aren't full of #^&#^&#^&#^& if they are selling their boats, that is desperation. The guys I know are stand up guys and I believe them when they say the customers will not come like they used to (especially since they are being forced tongetbout of the business...now, do we need to do something?? YES we do. But to group all charter guys in one group and say they are full of BS isn't right, just the same as it isn't right to group all the Rec guys together.
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[bobber]

Again- I'm sympathetic to the hardship that some of the captains are feeling, but this is the bed that we all must lie in. but its something that just about all of us must face at some point in our working lives- if the "environment" that we work in can no longer sustain us, its time to adapt or go extinct.

the rest of the fishing public shouldn't have to make concessions to accomodate that......

sorry- but thats the way it is.... (or should be IMHO)

[Sea Dangles]

The striped bas is the premier Gamefish in the northeast. The dominos that fall in the event of decline are far reaching.fuel,charters,bait,tackle shops,boat yards,tackle reps,right down to lure makers will feel the pinch. Somehow there is only one of these groups that feels the need to continue business as usual.
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[ivanputski]

If only they could realize that being permitted to carry on as usual to avoid financial hardship will only accelerate their financial hardship as the stocks continue to be depleted. It's very short sighted to want to carry on as usual, unless they realize the crash is inevitable and just want a few more years of good $$$, and then selling their boat before the final buzzer.
It's a case of "hey... someone's gonna kill the fish and get paid, better me than the next guy" mentality.


It all boils down to the fact that while we are all fishermen, we may value bass for different reasons...
While I see bass as a hobby, time spent fishing with my father, my kids, relaxation, fun... others simply see pounds and dollars.

For me, killing less fish equals more good times fishing with my family in the future. While for others, being forced to kill less fish means less money.

Sorry to have to make points like this, but this is the conversation... How different anglers value the stock for different reasons, and their motivation for why they want fish either protected or not.

I think my position is known... gonna try take a step back from posting on this issue.

[buckman]

Did I miss something ? Are these fish about to go extinct?
You guys talk as if keeping a few fish on a charter boat is going to collapse the stock and the kids of tomorrow will only be able to see striped bass in books and videos.
Once again I will ask you .
If the plan in place will help the bass population get to a point where you guys are comfortable with , then why put people out of business ?
This is pettiness .
I wonder how many of you have actually been offshore and seein the number of striped bass?
Think about it, hundreds of acres of sand eels , mackerel,and herring and fewer seals. They are here in great numbers .
Unfortunately you can't fish for them there .
I'm going to ask a question based on my own theory ? Is it possible that the inshore bass population has just moved off shore ? It happens with Tuna . They just don't show up in your old spots year to year but that doesn't mean they're not out there
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by buckman

I personally feel that this should be an exception because;
A) most of our clients come from out of state and they like to go home with some fish in the cooler . I think the most likely answer to this is that it would be incumbent on the captain to educate the client as to the state of the fishery, assuming the client is a fisherman in some respect, they ought to understand but based on C)...this doesn't appear likely to happen

B) we have been pounded with cod closures haddock restrictions and now we're fighting the closure of potentially the most productive area of Stellwagen Bank. In our area we just don't have the options that the southern fleet has . I think this is understood, it still does not provide anyone with a reason as to why 2 fish per client rather than one is essential to these guys staying in business...a PaulS pointed out...is it about the experience or the meat? I could be jaded but I can't imagine spending a day on the water fishing and then being upset that I took only two fillets home instead of four...particularly if they were striper size fillets

C) I don't believe the fish science behind a lot of it. I believe a lot of the people against it are basing their judgment on emotion ( I would think you of all people would hate that) this is an emotional statement...the people that you speak of are for the most part basing their judgment on stock assessments, year class statistics and reports from up and down the coast and their own experience on the water and their understanding of what goes on regarding the bass fishery each year, it may not be complete but it's based on more than emotion

And despite what you guys think I don't believe an increase in striper population is going to mean the facia, back to your favorite rock. None of you want to believe that the bait is offshore and that is where the fish are . where is the evidence of this?
I personally don't keep any stripers.
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couldn't get back to this yesterday

[scottw]

Originally Posted by buckman

Did I miss something ? Are these fish about to go extinct? no but the decline is documented in many ways
You guys talk as if keeping a few fish on a charter boat is going to collapse the stock and the kids of tomorrow will only be able to see striped bass in books and videos. noone said that
Once again I will ask you .
If the plan in place will help the bass population get to a point where you guys are comfortable with , then why put people out of business ? the plan in place is 50% likely to help the bass population get to a "comfortable" level
This is pettiness .
I wonder how many of you have actually been offshore and seein the number of striped bass? I've seen this and similar statements throughout the season where guys on boats gaze into their fish finders and declare there are millions of bass...this does not seem to be a good way to judge the health of the stock..if they circled the area that they are observing on a map of the striper coast it would hardly represent a trend
Think about it, hundreds of acres of sand eels , mackerel,and herring and fewer seals. They are here in great numbers .
Unfortunately you can't fish for them there .
I'm going to ask a question based on my own theory ? Is it possible that the inshore bass population has just moved off shore ? possible? ...sure...likely?.....probably not given the history....there is ample bait inshore as wellIt happens with Tuna . They just don't show up in your old spots year to year but that doesn't mean they're not out there
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all that said Buck, I do understand more and more where you are coming from and I believe that if in fact, the guys that you are speaking for/about can demonstrate a hardship I'd support some kind of exemption but I haven't really heard a reasonable argument yet as to why 1 or 2 is a gamechanger...and that may be a result of not understanding first hand what goes on with these boats and their clientele

[buckman]

Originally Posted by scottw

all that said Buck, I do understand more and more where you are coming from and I believe that if in fact, the guys that you are speaking for/about can demonstrate a hardship I'd support some kind of exemption but I haven't really heard a reasonable argument yet as to why 1 or 2 is a gamechanger...and that may be a result of not understanding first hand what goes on with these boats and their clientele

Well actually Scott most good captains can look at the fishfinder and tell the difference between bass and other fish but the fish I'm talking about I see boiling on the surface . acres and acres and acres of them.
I'm not sure what you're looking for. When you see a guy selling the boat and closing his business because they have been regulated out of fishing then I think that shows hardship.
We had numerous cancellations this year because of cod regulations .
Since a lot of this seems to be based on hunches, my hunch is there will be cancellations due to more restrictive striper regulations.
It's going to happen ...even for the guys that are for one fish.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by buckman

Well actually Scott most good captains can look at the fishfinder and tell the difference between bass and other fish but the fish I'm talking about I see boiling on the surface . acres and acres and acres of them.
I'm not sure what you're looking for. some evidence that a charter will go out of business or suffer or that their clients will not book a fishing trip to fish on the acres of bass if their party can only keep 1 fish per client as opposed to two....how do largely catch and release charters stay in business?When you see a guy selling the boat and closing his business because they have been regulated out of fishing then I think that shows hardship.
We had numerous cancellations this year because of cod regulations .
Since a lot of this seems to be based on hunches, my hunch is there will be cancellations due to more restrictive striper regulations.
It's going to happen ...even for the guys that are for one fish.
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it sounds like you believe it's about the meat and not the experience necessarily...the new limit is on fish kept, there's no limit on how many you can catch, from your description it shouldn't be any problem keeping the clients tight all day...you'd think that would keep most guys fully booked

[Sea Dangles]

The argument that all the bass have moved offshore is total bull. Are there fish over the line? Of course,but if these mythical schools of bass are the basis for any argument we are screwed. For some reason the discussion is always simplified by certain groups as being"just one more fish" but that language is insulting due to the expanse of the fleet. I will say this,an area like the canal,which has become the shore bound Block Island will benefit greatly if the rules are followed. Ask the folks down south about the fish over the fence...It is a fishery that has collapsed for them to a much greater degree than up here. 10 years ago they filled a dumpster a day with racks,now the boats stay tied up. THAT is cutting off your nose despite your face.
Crystal ball?
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by scottw

it sounds like you believe it's about the meat and not the experience necessarily...the new limit is on fish kept, there's no limit on how many you can catch, from your description it shouldn't be any problem keeping the clients tight all day...you'd think that would keep most guys fully booked

This is why nothing gets done in the government.....
People take what you say and take it to the most extreme level and try to use it as an example of reality.
It's not just about the meat or the experience, it's about both. I'm not naïve to what you have to do to bring a client a fun time.
This argument has gone circular .
I'm out ......maybe 😊
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[thefishingfreak]

Originally Posted by bobber

the way I read it, he's just saying that taking 2 fish (regardless of size) cannot be same as taking 1 fish out of the system.
the suggestion that the 2nd fish- by being bigger than the 28" minimum- somehow decreases the impact on the fishery, is the part that doesn't make sense

You are all equating a 2 fish limit as 2 more guaranteed dead fish.
A 2 fish limit is not an automatic double to the daily limit guarantee.
There has to be some thinking that it must be slightly more difficult to catch 2 fish @33" then it is to catch only one fish @28"
The same thinking that rationalizes the option of a "28-37" slot and a 40" trophy is harder to catch.

The ruling was for a 25% reduction to the stock NOT 1@28" COASTWIDE.

with 1@28" we will see a 31% reduction
with 2@33" we will see a 29% reduction
Those are both still over 25% correct?




This is the "option" asmfc has given to each state.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by buckman

This is why nothing gets done in the government.....
People take what you say and take it to the most extreme level and try to use it as an example of reality.
It's not just about the meat or the experience, it's about both. I'm not naïve to what you have to do to bring a client a fun time.
This argument has gone circular .
I'm out ......maybe ��
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the ONLY thing that is changing is 1 less fish per client to bring home = "less meat"
the ONLY thing that you are asking for with a two fish exception is an additional fish ="more meat"

it's all about the meat...apparently