TWO BASS FOR RI CHARTER AND PARTY BOATS?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

The only way less fish will be killed is if you guys don't put your charters on fish over 33". Just wondering - are most of the fish your charters catch under 33"?

They can be .
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[zacs]

Originally Posted by Nebe

ZacS is probably thinking about the block island charter slaughter zone at the southwest corner. A fishery that has remained somewhat the same while inshore areas have been devoid of schools of bass. This is also why NY might be following RI's lead because so many montauk boats fish southwest ledge.. The average fish caught here is 30 pounds and this is why 28" or 34" makes no difference. It's one fish killed vs 2 fish killed 2 to 3 times a day per paying customer.
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I'm not talking BI only. I'm talking coast wide.

I would hope that any charter capt worth their salt, spending almost every day on the water, with usually a network of other guides that share intel, would be putting at least 12@33 on the deck... on a majority of days...

Comms in mass seem to be able to do it no prob?

AND IF YOU CAN'T then the fishery is probably in worse shape than I thought, and we should push for immediate moratorium.

[JLH]

Originally Posted by Nebe

ZacS is probably thinking about the block island charter slaughter zone at the southwest corner. A fishery that has remained somewhat the same while inshore areas have been devoid of schools of bass. This is also why NY might be following RI's lead because so many montauk boats fish southwest ledge.. The average fish caught here is 30 pounds and this is why 28" or 34" makes no difference. It's one fish killed vs 2 fish killed 2 to 3 times a day per paying customer.
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This is one reason I am surprised that more of the charter fleet that doesn't fish BI isn't fighting against 2@33" or whatever two fish option with a higher size limit is on the table.

If a customer who is in it for the meat has the option of fishing an area where they might get a few fish over 33" which the Mass charter guys seem to claim is the case in their areas and I know is the case for charter boats working LIS much of the season, or driving to RI where they can get 12 (or likely 16) fish averaging 30 pounds or better what are they going to do? To me 1@28" would kind of level the playing field for the boats that don't have easy access to BI or Montauk. I could see 2@33" making fishing on either the BI or Montauk boats the only viable option for the guys in it for the meat of looking to illegally sell their catch.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by zacs

I'm not talking BI only. I'm talking coast wide.

I would hope that any charter capt worth their salt, spending almost every day on the water, with usually a network of other guides that share intel, would be putting at least 12@33 on the deck... on a majority of days...

Comms in mass seem to be able to do it no prob?

AND IF YOU CAN'T then the fishery is probably in worse shape than I thought, and we should push for immediate moratorium.

So you cleverly phrased your statement so that either way you're right. However it's a simplified statement and does not take into account the fact that fish move inshore and offshore .
There were plenty of days around Race Point when commercial guys did not take the limit . I believe Chatham was the same. On those days we pushed out a little bit and unfortunately the fish with more than 3 miles out.
I guess we suck because we can't guarantee a limit of 33 inch fish let alone a limit of 28 inch.
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[zacs]

Originally Posted by buckman

So you cleverly phrased your statement so that either way you're right.
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I don't think I am all that clever. Either way I am right. you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Either:

A) Professional fishermen will follow fish inshore, offshore, east & west, to fill their 2 fish limit on most days, be it 28", 33" or probably 36"

B) There are not enough fish left for professional fishermen to find their 2 fish limit per guest of fish 33"+ on many days, either inshore or offshore, or anywhere legally fishable.

If the answer is B, then would you not agree that we have a SERIOUS SERIOUS issue, and take even more drastic measures??

I personally think the answer is A. So if you let charters take 2@33, all you are doing is doubling the amount that the charter fleet will take in 2015. How could that be good for the health of the resource? Use all the fisheries mgmt math you want, taking twice as many fish CAN NOT BE THE SAME.

[JFigliuolo]

I’ve been keeping out of this.... But F IT!
Here’s the little gem of knowledge people conveniently keep missing.
EQUIVALENCY ONLY WORKS IF IT IS APPLIED ACROSS THE ENTIRE POPULATION EQUALLY!!!

Either ALL fisherman get 1@28 or ALL get 2@33.

Let me break it down for you like you are a 6 year old...

A. If the limit for EVERYONE is 1 @28 then shmucks who can’t fish KILL SLIGHTLY Less. (Cause they aren't very good). Better Fisherman (CHARTERS) will KILL MUCH LESS (1/2 as much likely)

B. If the limit for EVERYONE is 2@33 Shmucks will KILL MUCH LESS, because they can’t catch fish that big. Better fisherman (CHARTERS) will kill SLIGHTLY less.

C. If the limit for Shmucks is 1@28 They kill SLIGHTLY LESS, If the limit for better fisherman (CHARTERS) is 2@33 they kill SLIGHTLY less.

A 25% reduction can be achieved (if you believe the science) with A and B. The difference being WHAT users group takes the bigger hit. C Does not work as NEITHER group takes a BIG ENOUGH reduction.

I work with statistics day in and day out and know more than I care to about applying statistics across populations and sub populations.

Anyone who says that you can have 2 sets of different rules for 2 VERY different populations is either incompetent or deceitful

[Sea Dangles]

A pertinent question for our local authorities on the subject would be; If the recreational anglers were to also adopt an option of 2 fish larger than 33" do you also consider that to be beneficial to the striped bass fishery?
In other words, is this doing our part in helping to restore the species?

This should be good....
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by zacs

I would hope that any charter capt worth their salt, spending almost every day on the water, with usually a network of other guides that share intel, would be putting at least 12@33 on the deck... on a majority of days...

Comms in mass seem to be able to do it no prob?

AND IF YOU CAN'T then the fishery is probably in worse shape than I thought, and we should push for immediate moratorium.

That is exactly what I was going to get to.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

A pertinent question for our local authorities on the subject would be; If the recreational anglers were to also adopt an option of 2 fish larger than 33" do you also consider that to be beneficial to the striped bass fishery?
In other words, is this doing our part in helping to restore the species?

This should be good....
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

But that is not what is being proposed. They want special rules for a sub group of anglers.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by zacs

I don't think I am all that clever. Either way I am right. you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Either:

A) Professional fishermen will follow fish inshore, offshore, east & west, to fill their 2 fish limit on most days, be it 28", 33" or probably 36"

B) There are not enough fish left for professional fishermen to find their 2 fish limit per guest of fish 33"+ on many days, either inshore or offshore, or anywhere legally fishable.

If the answer is B, then would you not agree that we have a SERIOUS SERIOUS issue, and take even more drastic measures??

I personally think the answer is A. So if you let charters take 2@33, all you are doing is doubling the amount that the charter fleet will take in 2015. How could that be good for the health of the resource? Use all the fisheries mgmt math you want, taking twice as many fish CAN NOT BE THE SAME.

You can't follow the bass offshore .
It's called fishing not catching
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

A pertinent question for our local authorities on the subject would be; If the recreational anglers were to also adopt an option of 2 fish larger than 33" do you also consider that to be beneficial to the striped bass fishery?
In other words, is this doing our part in helping to restore the species?

This should be good....
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Yes and less fish would be caught.
However a good shore fisherman worth his salt... yada yada yada
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[zacs]

Originally Posted by buckman

You can't follow the bass offshore .
It's called fishing not catching
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OK, so anyway, you follow them wherever they are legally caught.

I don't know you personally, but I get the feeling you are probably just playing devil's advocate to try to stir the pot a little. Which is fine with me, I do it all the time.

I think the vast majority of comm/rec/charter fishermen would agree that 2@33 will basically double the take of the charter fleet vs. 1@28... and is just about status quo vs. 2@28.

I feel that is a bad thing. I guess you and a few others don't. Only time will tell....

[JLH]

Originally Posted by JFigliuolo

I’ve been keeping out of this.... But F IT!
Here’s the little gem of knowledge people conveniently keep missing.
EQUIVALENCY ONLY WORKS IF IT IS APPLIED ACROSS THE ENTIRE POPULATION EQUALLY!!!

Either ALL fisherman get 1@28 or ALL get 2@33.

Let me break it down for you like you are a 6 year old...

A. If the limit for EVERYONE is 1 @28 then shmucks who can’t fish KILL SLIGHTLY Less. (Cause they aren't very good). Better Fisherman (CHARTERS) will KILL MUCH LESS (1/2 as much likely)

B. If the limit for EVERYONE is 2@33 Shmucks will KILL MUCH LESS, because they can’t catch fish that big. Better fisherman (CHARTERS) will kill SLIGHTLY less.

C. If the limit for Shmucks is 1@28 They kill SLIGHTLY LESS, If the limit for better fisherman (CHARTERS) is 2@33 they kill SLIGHTLY less.

A 25% reduction can be achieved (if you believe the science) with A and B. The difference being WHAT users group takes the bigger hit. C Does not work as NEITHER group takes a BIG ENOUGH reduction.

I work with statistics day in and day out and know more than I care to about applying statistics across populations and sub populations.

Anyone who says that you can have 2 sets of different rules for 2 VERY different populations is either incompetent or deceitful

Great post Joe. This is exactly the issue that a lot of people seem to be either missing or simply choosing to ignore. You can not have each group pick whatever works best for them from the list of options and achieve the 25% reduction. The reductions are based upon regulations being applied evenly across the recreation sector (including the for hire boats).

[buckman]

Do you guys feel that one at 33 inches would result in maybe half as many fish kept as one at 28 inches?
I think it would be close
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[JLH]

Originally Posted by buckman

Do you guys feel that one at 33 inches would result in maybe half as many fish kept as one at 28 inches?
I think it would be close
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How do you figure half if going from 2@28 to 2@33 is only supposed to give us around a 25% reduction?

I don't think it would result close to a 50% reduction. Most of the fish I caught that were over 28" last season were also over 33" so had I wanted to keep a fish the extra 5" would have made no difference and I could have kept the fish either way. In the boat fishing areas that I am familiar with most keeper sized fish are over 33". For hire boats should have no issues putting their clients on 6 fish at either 28" or 33". Where it would have an impact is on inexperienced guys or guys that don't fish often but they aren't getting very many keepers at 28".

[buckman]

I actually think there is good chance charter boats, in our area at least ,would bring home more fish if it was 1 at 28 then if it was 2 at 33.
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[Captain Jason Colby]

12 pages of this?
As a charter boat I say 1 fish at 28 OR 33" is the way it should have always been! In addition, 50% of the "traditional commercial harvest" should have been the desired target from the beginning. As they were cranking up the volume (the commercial poundage) over the years I began to protest louder and louder and the answer I got back from "fishery managers" was something like: Well we are only going to kill what was traditionally harvested before". When I asked "wasn't it those TRADITIONAL HARVEST LEVELS that wiped them out the last time"? With that they become speachless.
Fishery management does not work because they "manage" for "maximum yield" instead of "abundance". Plus they are (for the most part) all corrupt. They get really nasty when I use the "C-word" but that is what lobbiests and special interest groups are doing: "buying" influence to push their agenda. Our government has legalized this kind of corruption by allowing the existance of lobbiests. They need to go!...JC

[Linesider82]

Originally Posted by buckman

I actually think there is good chance charter boats, in our area at least ,would bring home more fish if it was 1 at 28 then if it was 2 at 33.
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So there would be at least a 50% reduction in your area. The 2014 2@28" regs -> 2015 1@28" regs
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by Linesider82

So there would be at least a 50% reduction in your area. The 2014 2@28" regs -> 2015 1@28" regs
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I suppose when you put it that way , true .
And therefore two at 33 inches would result in my opinion and at least a 25% cut .

Btw, A lot of the local charter boat captains are up in Gloucester tonight fighting the closure of 55 square nautical miles of Stellwagen .
These guys are taking it from all sides .
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[PRBuzz]

Originally Posted by buckman

I suppose when you put it that way , true .
And therefore two at 33 inches would result in my opinion and at least a 25% cut .

Btw, A lot of the local charter boat captains are up in Gloucester tonight fighting the closure of 55 square nautical miles of Stellwagen .
These guys are taking it from all sides .
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You can't legally fish for/keep striper on Stellwagon anyways!

[JLH]

Originally Posted by buckman

I actually think there is good chance charter boats, in our area at least ,would bring home more fish if it was 1 at 28 then if it was 2 at 33.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I'm sure that holds true in some areas. I have heard captains who fish long island sound say the same thing and most of them actually seem to favor keeping it at 1@28 because getting a 33" fish can be difficult at certain times of the year so with 1@28 the charters can at least provide their clients with some fish to take home.

The problem with 2@33" is that is does nothing to slow down the killing of all of the big fish that takes place every summer around Block and off of Montauk. The average fish they catch is 20+ pounds and when the fishing is good the boats are often running multiple trips a day and limiting out each trip. On an average day there are easily 50+ boats out there doing this. That's not sustainable and going to 2@33" does nothing to slow it down.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JLH

I'm sure that holds true in some areas. I have heard captains who fish long island sound say the same thing and most of them actually seem to favor keeping it at 1@28 because getting a 33" fish can be difficult at certain times of the year so with 1@28 the charters can at least provide their clients with some fish to take home.

The problem with 2@33" is that is does nothing to slow down the killing of all of the big fish that takes place every summer around Block and off of Montauk. The average fish they catch is 20+ pounds and when the fishing is good the boats are often running multiple trips a day and limiting out each trip. On an average day there are easily 50+ boats out there doing this. That's not sustainable and going to 2@33" does nothing to slow it down.

I fully understand what you are saying . I'm speaking strictly about my area . I don't pretend to know anything about down there and I have been debating the pros and cons based on my area .
I too have winced at the large amount of huge bass taken down there .
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by PRBuzz

You can't legally fish for/keep striper on Stellwagon anyways!

I'm pretty sure I realize that Phil
I wasn't saying that nor was that my point.
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[zimmy]

Originally Posted by JLH

The problem with 2@33" is that is does nothing to slow down the killing of all of the big fish that takes place every summer around Block and off of Montauk. The average fish they catch is 20+ pounds and when the fishing is good the boats are often running multiple trips a day and limiting out each trip. On an average day there are easily 50+ boats out there doing this. That's not sustainable and going to 2@33" does nothing to slow it down.

100% on target. Same for Jersey, NC, VA. Those boats are on schools of primarily big fish and the last 15 years of them pounding those breeders has certainly done it's part getting us where we are. That doesn't mean bass are extinct or can't be caught anywhere, but by asmfc's best guesses there are maybe 50% as many fish as at the peak.

I think the attached graph indicates a problem that I suspected might exist. As fish ucket pointed out, there are plenty of guys finding a fish or two to kill. 19 million for recs according to his numbers. Regardless, the decline in releases in the Mass fishery are puke bucket worthy and that data is 2 years dated. Appears that gone are the days of a dozen fish released for each fish kept. Though maybe he is right and it is just me.

[PRBuzz]

Legal (or not), while you argue 1 vs 2:

[thefishingfreak]

Originally Posted by PRBuzz

Legal (or not), while you argue 1 vs 2:

step 1. Know your enemy

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by thefishingfreak

step 1. Know your enemy

Canal scene is a disaster at times too, but 1 fish takes a big bite out of both problems.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by PRBuzz

Legal (or not), while you argue 1 vs 2:

They have their quota based on the same science as the rec quota.
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[Piscator]

Originally Posted by buckman

They have their quota based on the same science as the rec quota.
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As much as that picture might make you want to puke, their (comm) quota is actually documented...rec quota isn't...we have no clue how much the recreational sector take is...all guess work but no actual count and that's a problem...
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[DZ]

Rhode Island update: This is all second hand from someone who attended. Meeting was held on Tuesday and attended by ASMFC RI state commissioners and a limited amount of representatives from RISAA, RI Party & Charter Association, and state fisheries biologists. Discussion revolved around CE (Conservation Equivalency). Although it was supposed to be a small meeting of just a few reps from each group the word got out to RIPCA and they “filled the room” with their members, not my words.

For hires are convinced 1 fish bag will severely impact their business and are pushing for a 2 fish bag. Majority of other rec groups are pushing to maintain a 1 fish bag. State Biologists seem to prefer 1 fish.

What will probably happen next: Rhode Island and other states will hold public hearings in January on the issue of CE. These meetings must be completed by the mid-winter (Feb 3-5) meeting of ASMFC where the issue of Conservation Equivalency will be discussed. These state hearings will obviously be very important. If you have an interest in the future of striped bass it is imperative that you show up at these meetings or write letters to your state commissioners.
A link to state commissioners:
http://www.asmfc.org/about-us/commissioners