Movie 13 Hours will re-open Benghazi discussion

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Bush deserves some blame for 09/11, it happened on his watch, and the buck stops with him. However, I don't recall that we had any actionable intelligence at the time to suggest that 09/11 was in the works, and you can't defend against every possible scenario, we don't have resources for that.I agree we don't have resources for that and that is why I don't hold him responsible for 9/11. However, he clearly was given briefings about OBL and we also warned airlines about OBL's desire to hijack planes. And that is the same reason I don't hold Pres. Obama or SOS Clinton responsible for Benghazi. Pres. Bush's reports had 000s of pieces of data to sort through just as Pres. Obama's reports had prob. 000s of requests for $.

Benghazi happened after 09/11, and by that time, any sane Westerner knew we are at war with radical jihad, and that we need to safeguard against that. Specific to Benghazi...as I have said, and you have ignoredI have not ignored and have repeatedly stated that just bc some other country (and the Red Cross isn't even a country) leaves somewhere, doesn't mean we should. I have said multiple times, I wouldn't want our policies dictated by what the French or Italy (or the Red Cross) does. , several nations (and the Red Cross) evacuated theeir people from benghazi, becaus ethey concluded it was too dangerous. Stevens also sensed that, and asked for additional security, which was denied. And Pres. Obama and SOS Clinton where not informed of this. As you yourself said, "you can't defend against every possible scenario, we don't have resources for that"

Prior to 09/11, we didn't see other countries grounding airplanes because they suspected Al Queda was going to use them as missiles. Had other countries done that, and we ignored it, THEN Bush would be similarly accountable (and stupid) as Obama and Clinton. Yet we warned the transportation dept. - see below.

You said it was a good hitng that we didn't follow the herd out of Benghazi, because that's what you call "leadership". That is way, way, way beneath you.

Was General Pickett (Confederate General at Gettysburgh) what you would call an effective leader, because he led his men into an ambush that sealed the fate of the South?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=91651&page=1


U.S. intelligence officials warned President Bush weeks before the Sept. 11 attacks that Osama bin Laden's terrorist network might hijack American planes, but White House officials stressed the threat was not specific.

A White House official acknowledged to ABCNEWS that the information prompted administration officials to issue a private warning to transportation department and national security agencies weeks before the attacks

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=91651&page=1


U.S. intelligence officials warned President Bush weeks before the Sept. 11 attacks that Osama bin Laden's terrorist network might hijack American planes, but White House officials stressed the threat was not specific.

A White House official acknowledged to ABCNEWS that the information prompted administration officials to issue a private warning to transportation department and national security agencies weeks before the attacks

I can't disagree with much of what you said, except this...you are placing zero weight, NONE, on the fact that other nations evacuated Benghazi, and that Stevens asked for more security. Clearly the state department knew that other nations fled Benghazi, they knew why, and they knew that Stevens asked for more security.

And knowing all that, not only did we leave Stevens there, but we had no help to send him within a 13 hour flight radius. Hilary was in charge of that organization, and if she sucked that bad, she's not fit to be promoted.

I am deeply critical of Bush, in that it took the feds so long to respond to Katrina. I could have filled my car with water, and driven to New Orleans before the feds got there, and there is zero excuse for that. I also blame New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin, because we all knew a week ahead of time that the storm was coming, and he failed to evacuate. THAT, to me, is comparable to how badly Benghazi was bungled. Right before Benghazi, we knew a lot more, than Bush knew on 09/10/01. I don't see how you can compare the two.

I admit it looks hypocritical on my end, because I am more critical of Obama/Clinton than I am of Bush...but the fact is, the Red Cross has no sophisticated intelligence mechanisms, and they knew they needed to evacuate. If the State Dept is less informed than the Red Cross (which they were in this case, that's not debateable), then whoever is in charge of the State Dept, is failing miserably.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

you are placing zero weight, NONE, on the fact that other nations evacuated Benghazi, and that Stevens asked for more security. Clearly the state department knew that other nations fled Benghazi, they knew why, and they knew that Stevens asked for more security.

I'm not ignoring that at all. I just think as the most powerful nation on earth, our actions, interests, etc. are different from other entities.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I'm not ignoring that at all. I just think as the most powerful nation on earth, our actions, interests, etc. are different from other entities.

As usual, that's a valid point. But if our unique interests mandate that we leave people in a region so dangerous that everyone else is fleeing...is it not a sign of dismal management, that (1) his requests for extra security were denied, and (2) we had no help to send within a 13 hour flight radius?

You raised good, tough, challenging points Paul.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

As usual, that's a valid point. But if our unique interests mandate that we leave people in a region so dangerous that everyone else is fleeing...is it not a sign of dismal management, that (1) his requests for extra security were denied, and (2) we had no help to send within a 13 hour flight radius?

You raised good, tough, challenging points Paul.

Knowing that #1 and #2, Stevens also chose to still go to Benghazi, so while he asked for more security, he deemed it acceptable risk to go there. That isn't pissing on his grave, but hindsight is 20/20 for sure

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Knowing that #1 and #2, Stevens also chose to still go to Benghazi, so while he asked for more security, he deemed it acceptable risk to go there. That isn't pissing on his grave, but hindsight is 20/20 for sure

Bryan, whose job is it to protect our ambassadors, when they agree to put themselves in risky situations? A 13 hour flight radius includes a significant portion of our planet, and there was NOTHING to help him within that radius?

Other than party loyalty, I don't see how anyone can defend that. If you can't criticize Obama/Clinton for leaving him out to dry like that, I guess you'd never criticize them for anything, ever. It's like me defending how long it took Bush to send water to the Superdome after Katrina. I couldn't ever do that with a straight face.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Bryan, whose job is it to protect our ambassadors, when they agree to put themselves in risky situations? A 13 hour flight radius includes a significant portion of our planet, and there was NOTHING to help him within that radius?

Other than party loyalty, I don't see how anyone can defend that. If you can't criticize Obama/Clinton for leaving him out to dry like that, I guess you'd never criticize them for anything, ever. It's like me defending how long it took Bush to send water to the Superdome after Katrina. I couldn't ever do that with a straight face.

I think not having a plan 'B' in place was a mistake. period. A mistake is different than doing something maliciously wrong. I would hope that that has been a painful lesson for this and other administrations. Has it been worth X different Benghazi hearings? probably not.

So let's plat devils advocate. Could Stevens have requested they leave? Did he and was ordered they stay? He likely know the conditions on ground better than anyone in DC State, right?