Trump predictions

[wdmso]

You do realize that the so-called "middle class" is a by-product of capitalism? Unions did not create the middle class. They benefited from working for wealthy companies which paid them well--much more than they would have gotten otherwise--even before they were unionized.

Sadly you assume history would have been the same if unions were not involved..
if these wealthy compaines which you say paid them so we'll
why the need for unions Without unions, we would still be working 12 hour days, seven days a week, with no paid holidays, no paid vacations, no pay raises. Can unions price themselves out of a Job yes and many have accepted that reality


The #1 item on the list of stupid spending, is union benefits.
Thats not the whole story is it ... The new revenue erosion and higher pension costs together would swell the projected deficits to $1.5 billion next fiscal The chief culprits behind the latest declining forecast were the state income tax.. no money no spending bring back more min wage jobs and the 60 hr work week thats the answer

you act as if Union members dont pay taxes or contribute into their own retirement or provide a valuable service to the state or town in which they work

INSANE benefits that were done away with, for good reason, in the private sector long ago.

what benefits are those that were done away with good reason ?? I love to hear them ... and why they were or should be stopped

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Sadly you assume history would have been the same if unions were not involved.. could be better...who knows...we'd have fewer unfunded pension funds strangling municipalities...you are assuming it would be worse...the question is...for who?


if these wealthy compaines which you say paid them so we'll
why the need for unions there are lots of wealthy companies paying their employees well without the interference from unions..you act as though they don't exist

Without unions, we would still be working 12 hour days, seven days a week, with no paid holidays, no paid vacations, no pay raises. this is debatable and some of us refer to this a "self-employment"..been doing it most of my working life

Can unions price themselves out of a Job yes and many have accepted that reality


you act as if Union members dont pay taxes or contribute into their own retirement or provide a valuable service to the state or town in which they work no one said any of this but the compensation and benefits are often way out of line with the private sector that was pointed out is paying the $ for that compensation..also..the retirement contributions don't appear to be sufficient to pay the benefit in most cases...



what benefits are those that were done away with good reason ?? I love to hear them ... and why they were or should be stopped

I love you Wayne but you dismiss and then launch right into a predictable rant...Detbuch took the time to make some really valid points but you seem to completely ignore them

I don't have a problem with unions generally but broadly they engage in much of the bad behavior that they criticize businesses and the private sector for through political activity, patronage, mismanagement of funds and corruption... and act as an entitled mob when the don't get their way...this accounts more for their loss of membership and prominence more than any vast right wing conspiracy

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

You do realize that the so-called "middle class" is a by-product of capitalism? Unions did not create the middle class. They benefited from working for wealthy companies which paid them well--much more than they would have gotten otherwise--even before they were unionized.

Sadly you assume history would have been the same if unions were not involved..
if these wealthy compaines which you say paid them so we'll
why the need for unions Without unions, we would still be working 12 hour days, seven days a week, with no paid holidays, no paid vacations, no pay raises. Can unions price themselves out of a Job yes and many have accepted that reality


The #1 item on the list of stupid spending, is union benefits.
Thats not the whole story is it ... The new revenue erosion and higher pension costs together would swell the projected deficits to $1.5 billion next fiscal The chief culprits behind the latest declining forecast were the state income tax.. no money no spending bring back more min wage jobs and the 60 hr work week thats the answer

you act as if Union members dont pay taxes or contribute into their own retirement or provide a valuable service to the state or town in which they work

INSANE benefits that were done away with, for good reason, in the private sector long ago.

what benefits are those that were done away with good reason ?? I love to hear them ... and why they were or should be stopped

"The new revenue erosion and higher pension costs together would swell the projected deficits to $1.5 billion next fiscal The chief culprits behind the latest declining forecast were the state income tax."

I don't know what that means.

But I know this...when CT tax revenues were at an all-time high, it still wasn't nearly enough to fund those benefits. WDMSO, you can't have public servants getting pensions worth several hundred thousand dollars. You just can't. The math worked in the 1950s, because people only lived a few years in retirement. Now, people live for decades. Again, that's why the private sector did away with these pensions.

Here's an idea...you save whatever you can for your retirement, just like I have to do. However much you choose to set aside, that's how much you have. That's the way it works for everyone else, there is no earthly reason why it can't work for public servants. Your financial security is no more important to society than anyone else's.

"you act as if Union members dont pay taxes or contribute into their own retirement"

Who the hell said that?

Yes, most union workers pay a small % of their pay into their pension. But that's a tiny fraction of the overall cost of the pension, and you expect everyone else to make up the difference. Why is that? Why are unionized employees so special? if I don't save enough to fund my own retirement, are you going to chip into my 401(k)? No. I have to pay for my own retirement. So should you.

"what benefits are those that were done away with good reason ?? I love to hear them ... and why they were or should be stopped"

Pensions and cheap healthcare in retirement. Those were done away with in the early 1990s. They should be stopped (for the tenth time) because they are impossible to pay for. That's why states have those deficits. Those benefits can never, ever be paid for. Never..

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

But I know this...when CT tax revenues were at an all-time high, it still wasn't nearly enough to fund those benefits.

That's why states have those deficits. Those benefits can never, ever be paid for. Never..

current retirement benefits should not have to be paid with current tax revenues...where are the years of "contributions" plus interest made by the public employees to their retirement???....sounds like a Ponzi scheme

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

current retirement benefits should not have to be paid with current tax revenues...where are the years of "contributions" plus interest made by the public employees to their retirement???....sounds like a Ponzi scheme

Of course it's a Ponzi scheme.

These people make tiny contributions to their pensions, and in most states, the taxpayers are expected to make up the difference. states have mostly been able to kick the can down the road using accounting gimmicks (liabilities that aren't due in this year, aren't considered in the annual budget), but as more and more Baby Boomers are retiring, the reserves are dwindling FAST. Here in CT, we will start bouncing checks in 5-10 years (depending on interest rates and some other variables). At that point, the state will concede that they can't double th income tax, so they will have zero choice but to declare insolvency and re-negotiate those contracts.

These people should have switched to 401(k)s (or whatever you call the public sector equivalent) 25 years ago. But here in CT, the legislature has been controlled by Democrats for 30 years, and Democrats are beholden to labor unions, so that wasn't going to happen. You can only plug holes in the dike with your fingers for so long, we only have so many fingers. The Baby Boomers will be the wrecking ball that destroys the dike once and for all.

This isn't advanced calculus, this is elementary school arithmetic. You cannot have more than there is. Public labor unions are the lsst entity on the planet that refuses to accept that notion.

As you said, it is absolutely a Ponzi scheme. Like all Ponzi schemes, it will implode when sufficiently more money is going out than coming in. We have been treading water, barely, for many years. But we cannot dodge the economic impact of the Baby Boomers. It's coming.