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Old 12-07-2017, 04:15 PM   #91
spence
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I don't think it was.. "Although they'll be reciting their vows in Provincetown, Massachusetts, in September, the couple plans to celebrate with a reception for friends and family in Denver in October."
Correct, looks like they were just ahead of the Colorado change in law. Not sure it really matters though. You still can't discriminate on sexuality regardless of the same sex union.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:09 PM   #92
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Correct, looks like they were just ahead of the Colorado change in law. Not sure it really matters though. You still can't discriminate on sexuality regardless of the same sex union.
It wasn't on the grounds of sexuality. It was on the grounds of religion. He was willing to sell his pre-made cakes to them regardless of their sexuality. It wasn't about their sexuality, it was about his religion. He wasn't refusing to serve them, he was refusing to bake a cake which was going to be used to celebrate something contrary to his religion. Had the couple been of a different sexuality, and they wanted the baker to create a product that contradicted what he religiously believed, he could have, on those religious, not "sexuality", beliefs, refused the service.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:56 PM   #93
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That's my point Spence. If someone finds something offensive they have a right to refuse. Offensive is a "relative" term to each individual.
The point is that he can't refuse to make them something he would make for a straight couple. He did not reject the design, he rejected making a cake for them. If he said, I will make a cake, but I ask for the right to decline certain phrases or designs, this would likely not been heard at the lower level.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:01 PM   #94
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He wasn't refusing to serve them, he was refusing to bake a cake which was going to be used to celebrate something contrary to his religion.
The service they asked for was for him to bake a cake- a service he provides to others in his business. It is reasonable for him to refuse certain aspects of cake design.

It is discriminatory to refuse the service of baking the cake because of the association between where/when it is eaten and the clients' sexuality
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Old 12-07-2017, 07:42 PM   #95
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Not sure where you found that quote, but court record has it that design was never discussed with Philips before he refused them

ml[/url]
it would be interesting to see a link to where he got that quote
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:25 PM   #96
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The point is that he can't refuse to make them something he would make for a straight couple.

A straight couple's wedding, as such, would not desecrate his religion's view of marriage.

What if the straight couple said they wanted a cake or some donuts made for the purpose of feeding the rats in their ally, or maybe to feed their beloved cat. They could be exactly the same donuts or cake in appearance and ingredients as those on the bakers pre-baked shelf, but they didn't want those ready in stock, rather they wanted some specially made up for the purpose. Would the baker not be allowed to refuse such a request?

If the straight couple said they wanted cakes or cookies to enliven their orgy that evening, not just to eat but to place them in erogenous orifices. Would the baker be allowed to refuse to sell his wares for such purposes?

Would the baker not be allowed to refuse his wares on the basis for which they were to be used? Given that the pre-made items in stock were not baked with the intention that they would be used in ways that his religion prohibited, it would not be his sin but the consumer's sin for the purpose in which they were used. But if the baker was asked, specifically, to bake goods for a purpose which his religion forbad, by baking explicitly for that purpose, he would be intentionally participating, and so be personally complicit in the sin.

Sexuality need not be the cause in any of the above examples.


He did not reject the design, he rejected making a cake for them. If he said, I will make a cake, but I ask for the right to decline certain phrases or designs, this would likely not been heard at the lower level.
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Again, he rejected, not on the grounds of sexuality, but on the basis of his religious beliefs. The scope of those beliefs would in some cases involve straight couples as well.

And if, as you say, the court would not likely have entertained the case if certain phrases or designs were requested, then that would be the "difference without a distinction." If the phrases or designs were intended to celebrate gay marriage, then the cake would be celebrating gay marriage, which the cake would do without the phrases and designs if it were intended to be used for a gay marriage. The purpose and use for which the cake is made, not its particular design, is what makes the baker intentionally complicit in a sacrilegious ceremony.

His pre-baked goods were not made with those intentions. If he is required to sell whatever he has made and displayed to all comers, he has no control of how his goods are used once they leave the store. But he does have the volition not to make those goods in the first place. But if he makes them with the intention that they be used for unholy purposes, then he is complicit in those purposes and shares the sin.

That may sound silly or "odd" to a non-believer, but to a devout faithful it is religious worship.

Last edited by detbuch; 12-07-2017 at 09:03 PM..
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:41 PM   #97
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The point is that he can't refuse to make them something he would make for a straight couple. He did not reject the design, he rejected making a cake for them. If he said, I will make a cake, but I ask for the right to decline certain phrases or designs, this would likely not been heard at the lower level.
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"he can't refuse to make them something he would make for a straight couple"

One can make a compelling case, that the first amendment says he can, as long as his refusal to do so, is based on religion. At least 3 SC justices will say he can (probably).

When Obama's EEOC argued that Muslim truck drivers could not be forced to abandon their religion, the EEOC didn't say "unless anyone is offended, in which case they can be forced to abandon their religion."
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:00 PM   #98
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It is discriminatory to refuse the service of baking the cake because of the association between where/when it is eaten and the clients' sexuality
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It is interesting how those who claim that the First Amendment or other rights derived from the structure of the Constitution are not absolute, yet then claim an absoluteness to various legal interpretations of those Amendments and rights.

As I have said several times in other threads, constitutional rights cannot contradict themselves. They work in concordance with each other. The right of free association, and the right to freely dispose of or use personal property cannot negate another's right to the same.

Granted that a seller of property cannot, without contractual agreement, prohibit how the buyer uses that property once it is paid for, nor prohibit with whom the buyer associates when using his product once it is paid for. But it is also the right of the seller not to sell, and also the right of the seller to associate with whom he chooses. Neither, in either case, is denying the other's "rights." If one or the other is forced to deny his own right to satisfy the other's desire, that is tyranny, not a case of constitutional property rights, nor an instance of freedom of association, certainly not a support, in this case, of religious freedom.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:05 PM   #99
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it would be interesting to see a link to where he got that quote
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Kelsey Whipple from Westword.com in Denver published a sympathetic article the day after the incident which included several quotes from the aggrieved....

http://www.westword.com/restaurants/...couple-5727921
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:28 PM   #100
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Again, he rejected, not on the grounds of sexuality, but on the basis of his religious beliefs. .
Religious beliefs about sexuality.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:11 PM   #101
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Religious beliefs about sexuality.
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As I have said, over and over, rights must conform and be in concordance, in ultimate agreement, with all other rights. Those are the only limitations on rights. They are limited by their encroachment on other rights.

When sexual rights encroach on other rights, there must be a concordance of those rights. Sexual rights are not absolute against other rights. The right to sexuality does not trump all other rights. You cannot force your sexuality on someone who wants no part of it.

The reasons for resisting someone's sexuality are various and numerous. One of those reasons is religious beliefs. Those religious beliefs may range from celibacy, to premarital sex, and to marriage.

Sexuality, in and of itself, is a personal right. But the rights of others not to participate in your sexuality must not be abridged so long as it does not curtail your right to your personal sexuality. The right not to participate in your sexuality because of religious beliefs should not be abridged if it does not curtail your sexual rights. Not materially, nor otherwise, participating in your marriage because of religious views does not prohibit you from marrying or from celebrating your marriage, or from practicing your sexuality.
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Old 12-08-2017, 04:58 AM   #102
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actually...he has previously turned down requests to create Halloween-themed cakes, lewd bachelor-party cakes, and a cake celebrating a divorce.

soooo....I think he's probably also bracing for law suits from witches and pumpkins, unhappy couples and guys with dirty minds
he does not bake create Halloween-themed cakes, lewd bachelor-party cakes, and a cake celebrating a divorce. to all customers !!!

not just gay one's.. please present the whole story

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Old 12-08-2017, 05:06 AM   #103
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defenders of this behavior are mostly the same anti government crowd they know the constitution better than you crowd the my religion is better than you crowd and ray more and Trump never assaulted anyone crowd and the i'll never side with someone who they i thinks a liberal crowd reguardless of the evidence or behavior or lie spoken by anyone

and claim they are objective and love MAGA
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Old 12-08-2017, 05:16 AM   #104
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Correct, looks like they were just ahead of the Colorado change in law.
wrong again...and it does matter because at the time the State that he operated his business in didn't even recognize same sex marriage but you seem to think he should have been forced to

the law in Colorado didn't change till July 2014....the incident was July 2012...and at that time Colorado not only would not recognize same sex marriage but as recently 2006 voters had voted to amend the constitution to define marriage as being between a man and a woman...two years later things changed in Colorado

Colorado Amendment 43 was a referendum approved by the voters in 2006 that added a new section to Article II of the Colorado Constitution to define marriage in Colorado as only a union between one man and one woman. It passed with 56% of the vote.

Same-sex marriage has been legally recognized in Colorado since October 7, 2014. Colorado's state constitutional ban on same-sex marriage was struck down in the state district court on July 9, 2014, and by the U.S. District Court for the District of Colorado on July 23, 2014.
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Old 12-08-2017, 05:19 AM   #105
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he does not bake create Halloween-themed cakes, lewd bachelor-party cakes, and a cake celebrating a divorce. to all customers !!!

not just gay one's.. please present the whole story
if you rewrite that in decipherable English I will try...
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Old 12-08-2017, 06:35 AM   #106
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Religious beliefs about sexuality.
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The Bill Of Rights says that no law shall interfere with the free exercise of religion. It does not say "except in the case of issues of sexuality".

In fact, the Supreme Court ruled in the Hobby Lobby and Little Sisters of the Poor cases, that religious issues of a sexual nature are still protected. The SC ruled that the ObamaCare laws that mandated that Christian business owners pay for birth control and abortion-like procedures, were unconstitutional.

I
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Old 12-08-2017, 06:42 AM   #107
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defenders of this behavior are mostly the same anti government crowd they know the constitution better than you crowd the my religion is better than you crowd and ray more and Trump never assaulted anyone crowd and the i'll never side with someone who they i thinks a liberal crowd reguardless of the evidence or behavior or lie spoken by anyone

and claim they are objective and love MAGA
Read the text of the first amendment, and tell us why it doesn't apply here. It's so easy to label this guy a bigot. It's a lot harder to tell me why the first amendment doesn't apply.

Then there's the Obama government's argument in the case of Muslim truck drivers. The federal government said that if reasonable accommodations can be made, then people at work cannot be forced to abandon their religious beliefs. In this case, there are other bakeries nearby, which were happy to provide the service. How is that not a reasonable alternative?

There's nothing easier than insulting this guy. That's not the point. T

WDMSO, do you think that the Bill Of Rights only applies to those sympathetic to liberals?

"he my religion is better than you crowd"

Who the hell is saying that here?

ALL you have is insults. Nothing even remotely pertinent to the Bill Of Rights, which is all that matters. I don't agree with the baker on this issue. But obviously the text of the First Amendment, and the feds' argument in the Muslim trucker case, make it clear he has this right.
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Old 12-08-2017, 08:34 AM   #108
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The Bill Of Rights says that no law shall interfere with the free exercise of religion. It does not say "except in the case of issues of sexuality".
You are ignoring the 225 plus years of legal proceedings and the way the supreme court has dealt with the first amendment. Are you aware that when the first amendment was drafted, states and local governments could abridge the free exercise clause? It is not as simple in practice or law as it is in your mind.

My eyes is goin' crazy!
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Old 12-08-2017, 08:36 AM   #109
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You are ignoring the 225 plus years of legal proceedings and the way the supreme court has dealt with the first amendment. Are you aware that when the first amendment was drafted, states and local governments could abridge the free exercise clause? It is not as simple in practice or law as it is in your mind.
He's on autopilot now...just reposting the same thing over and over.
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Old 12-08-2017, 09:20 AM   #110
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He's on autopilot now...just reposting the same thing over and over.
Because the text of the first amendment, and how that has been interpreted, is all that matters. You can go on and on about how bigoted and close minded the guy is, and it's worth having that discussion on the issue of gay marriage (the liberals convinced me that gay marriage is something I should support).

But if the question is whether or not the baker has this right, all that matters is that sentence in the bill of rights. Your opinions of what a jerk this guy is (and he may be a jerk), mean absolutely nothing to the question of whether or not he has the legal right to do it.
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Old 12-08-2017, 09:22 AM   #111
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You are ignoring the 225 plus years of legal proceedings and the way the supreme court has dealt with the first amendment. Are you aware that when the first amendment was drafted, states and local governments could abridge the free exercise clause? It is not as simple in practice or law as it is in your mind.
"You are ignoring the 225 plus years of legal proceedings"

I posted one legal proceeding (the Muslim truck drivers) that was exactly on point. If you have legal decisions to suggest that Americans must forfeit their religious freedom to avoid hurting the feelings of others, please share. I mean that sincerely, that wasn't a wise-ass comment.

"Are you aware that when the first amendment was drafted, states and local governments could abridge the free exercise clause?"

Can you cite examples?
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Old 12-08-2017, 10:02 AM   #112
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You are ignoring the 225 plus years of legal proceedings and the way the supreme court has dealt with the first amendment. Are you aware that when the first amendment was drafted, states and local governments could abridge the free exercise clause? It is not as simple in practice or law as it is in your mind.
At the time the First Amendment was drafted, it applied to the federal government. It now still applies to the federal government but also to the states.
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Old 12-08-2017, 10:07 AM   #113
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"You are ignoring the 225 plus years of legal proceedings"

I posted one legal proceeding (the Muslim truck drivers) that was exactly on point.

"Are you aware that when the first amendment was drafted, states and local governments could abridge the free exercise clause?"

Can you cite examples?
I am moving on from this because it is redundant, but again, your truck driver example is one case with different circumstances than the baker. You choose to view it as on point because it matches your view. You clearly don't recognize any nuance, so it is a waste of my time to provide you with the dozens of nuanced rulings. You can look them up.

There were almost 100 years before the 14th amendment changed that states could abridge the free excerise clause. It wasn't the founders who did that, a congress a century later did that. If you believe in the absolutism of the document as created by the founders, you should also recognize that they, the founders, gave the states the right to abridge it. Others took that right away generations later.

My eyes is goin' crazy!
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:22 AM   #114
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If you believe in the absolutism .....
who are the absolutists now?
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:35 AM   #115
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I am moving on from this because it is redundant, but again, your truck driver example is one case with different circumstances than the baker. You choose to view it as on point because it matches your view. You clearly don't recognize any nuance, so it is a waste of my time to provide you with the dozens of nuanced rulings. You can look them up.

There were almost 100 years before the 14th amendment changed that states could abridge the free excerise clause. It wasn't the founders who did that, a congress a century later did that. If you believe in the absolutism of the document as created by the founders, you should also recognize that they, the founders, gave the states the right to abridge it. Others took that right away generations later.
It was done by the amendment process which the Founders put in the Constitution. It wasn't a matter of someone later just negated the Founders will.

And the First Amendment rights were not taken away. They were made stronger and more expansive by applying them to the states.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:36 AM   #116
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Freedom of speech (now referred to as expression) and the free exercise of religion were meant to be freedoms practiced in the public, as well as the private, square. So there must be accommodations for those freedoms and others when they conflict.

If gay couple has right to buy whatever a baker sells, does the baker have a right not to sell certain products? Obviously, he has that right. He doesn't have to bake or sell Middle Eastern pastries, for instance. Would that be considered ethnic discrimination? No, it would be ethnic discrimination if he refused to sell the wares he makes to a Middle Easterner.

So why, if he must sell whatever he makes to gays, should a baker have the right not to sell a wedding cake meant to be served at a gay wedding? If he practices his business according to his Christian beliefs, there is nothing in his religion that says he must not sell his wares to a non-believer. ln general, his baked goods have no religious connotation, with the exception of special occasions such as Easter and weddings. On those special occasions, his religion is paramount in the conception of the products meant to celebrate them. In his religion, those occasions represent a holy day or a holy sacrament. He cannot force anyone to buy his Easter cookies.

In his religion, marriage is between a man and a woman. It is a holy sacrament. Marriage between same sex couples would be sacrilegious. For a Christian baker, if he is devout, there is no such thing as a gay wedding, and there would be no such wedding cake for him to make. Asking to bake such a cake would be asking him to participate in a blasphemy. Does he have a right to refuse such a request under his right to freedom of religion?

If he is willing to sell to gays any of his wares which he has made with no intention that they serve some irreligious purpose, then in that respect he does not discriminate against them. But in matters of freedom of religion, as practiced in his public life, should he be forced to trespass his faith by participating in something that counters it? Is there no accommodation there between gay rights and religious rights?

Sure there is. As was said above, he will sell any of the wares he creates in which he has or had no intention that they be used to blaspheme his religion. All the products pre-made and on his shelves are of that nature. If you prefer to have him bake something rather than buying a pre-made product, don't ask him to do so with the intention of serving some purpose that is contrary to his faith. That is asking him to participate in what he religiously believes is wrong. Just ask him to bake a cake. Then do whatever you want with it. Even ask for a wedding cake, but you don't have to tell him what it's for. If he asks you what it's for, and your honest, don't expect him to comply with your request if it makes him complicit in what he considers sin.

His right to practice his religion in the public square does not negate a homosexual's right to marry. Both sides can be accommodated and made whole if neither is forced to deny their rights to accommodate the other's.

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Old 12-08-2017, 11:44 AM   #117
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Both sides can be accommodated and made whole if neither is forced to deny their rights to accommodate the other's.
yes...
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:49 PM   #118
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Both sides can be accommodated and made whole if neither is forced to deny their rights to accommodate the other's.
Exactly.

But that's not good enough for the liberals, at least on this issue. Everyone must be forcibly made to agree with them.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:50 PM   #119
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Exactly.

Everyone must be forcibly made to agree with them.
this is abundantly clear....
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:52 PM   #120
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If gay couple has right to buy whatever a baker sells, does the baker have a right not to sell certain products? Obviously, he has that right. He doesn't have to bake or sell Middle Eastern pastries, for instance. Would that be considered ethnic discrimination? No, it would be ethnic discrimination if he refused to sell the wares he makes to a Middle Easterner.
The couple wasn't demanding a sugar-free baklawa, they were looking for the same sort of wedding cake the baker made every day.
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