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Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi: |
03-21-2018, 10:51 AM
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#91
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
Posts: 18,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
it does make sense...how do you enforce this?
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Both of these are after the fact, then laws are broken, arrests made, and charges filed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy
When a nine year old walks in the bedroom and grabs a handgun and shoots his 13 year old sister in the back of the head you arrest the owner for improper storage. Kind of like the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent to murder, it might deter a person from leaving the handgun where a child can access it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebe
The term is called “accessory to murder”
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The question is how do you enforce the requirement of someone having to lock up their weapons. Other than random spot-checks by the police (which will never happen), there really isn't a way.
If you want to fix the issue, find a way to fix stupidity and lack of common sense.
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"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
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03-21-2018, 11:09 AM
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#92
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman
The question is how do you enforce the requirement of someone having to lock up their weapons. Other than random spot-checks by the police (which will never happen), there really isn't a way.
If you want to fix the issue, find a way to fix stupidity and lack of common sense.
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No solution is 100% but if it's the law more people will comply simply because they don't want to be held liable. Plenty of options to protect weapons yet keep them available for home defense if needed.
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03-21-2018, 11:14 AM
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#93
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
No solution is 100% but if it's the law more people will comply simply because they don't want to be held liable.
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you'd think they'd comply because they don't want their kids shooting each other...liability?...good grief
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03-21-2018, 11:39 AM
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#94
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bethany CT
Posts: 2,877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
that assumes that people who are dumb enough to leave loaded hand guns laying around where little children can access them are going to going to care that there is a law requiring a safe storage solution....
wait...I thought the death penalty is not a deterrent "A 2009 survey of criminologists revealed that over 88% believed the death penalty was NOT a deterrent to murder."
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Right, that is why I said "supposed to be a deterrent..." Even if it doesn't deter negligent behavior, the owner probably should be held responsible.
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No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
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03-21-2018, 12:12 PM
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#95
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
Posts: 18,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
No solution is 100% but if it's the law more people will comply simply because they don't want to be held liable. Plenty of options to protect weapons yet keep them available for home defense if needed.
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The question wasn't if it was a sound solution, I don't think anybody here is going to argue that it is smart to lock up guns when there are children around, the question was how do you enforce it?
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"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
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03-22-2018, 03:48 PM
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#96
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Somerset MA
Posts: 9,197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman
The question wasn't if it was a sound solution, I don't think anybody here is going to argue that it is smart to lock up guns when there are children around, the question was how do you enforce it?
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How do you enforce a requirement in a state that doesn't have any requirements to own a gun to start with ...
but Mississippi passes strictest abortion law! its madness
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03-22-2018, 05:16 PM
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#97
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
Posts: 18,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso
How do you enforce a requirement in a state that doesn't have any requirements to own a gun to start with ...
but Mississippi passes strictest abortion law! its madness
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Then it's not a requirement, is it?
Again, how do you enforce that requirement in a state that actually HAS that requirement?
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"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
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03-22-2018, 07:29 PM
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#98
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman
Then it's not a requirement, is it?
Again, how do you enforce that requirement in a state that actually HAS that requirement?
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You can’t enforce it in every case, like most public safety laws, seat belts for instance, you do so to affect common behavior. More people wear seatbelts now than before there was a law requiring their use and most people no longer need a law to make them.
It has saved lives, now airbags......
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Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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03-22-2018, 07:32 PM
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#99
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
You can’t enforce it in every case, like most public safety laws, seat belts for instance, you do so to affect common behavior. More people wear seatbelts now than before there was a law requiring their use and most people no longer need a law to make them.
It has saved lives, now airbags......
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Go beyond this. The culture change with seat belts means that today most people couldn't imagine not wearing a seat belt today.
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03-22-2018, 07:47 PM
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#100
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
Go beyond this. The culture change with seat belts means that today most people couldn't imagine not wearing a seat belt today.
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I intimated that but perhaps it was not clear.
I remember starting to drive once and one of my children screaming Stop
I said what is the matter she said I don’t have my seatbelt on
That was probably 20 years ago or so
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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03-22-2018, 08:07 PM
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#101
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
Go beyond this. The culture change with seat belts means that today most people couldn't imagine not wearing a seat belt today.
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I don't think it's the same thing. Drivers have to go out and drive past cops every day, so many people have the incentive (disincentive?) to wear seat belts.
Isn't there already a law saying you can't leave guns out if little kids are around? Maybe not...
We fall so short of what we should be....so many stupid people out there.
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03-22-2018, 08:29 PM
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#102
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,075
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Jim we all do things because we are pressured by society.
The groups you join reward you for correct behavior.
We as a society are a group and for hundreds of years have rewarded people for good behavior.
It’s important to our society that people fit into certain norms.
Laws are the rules that guide us down the road, not perfectly but it has worked for longer than other self guided governments. I’d like to see it continue
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03-22-2018, 10:43 PM
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#103
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
I remember starting to drive once and one of my children screaming Stop
I said what is the matter she said I don’t have my seatbelt on
That was probably 20 years ago or so
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This is exactly my point.
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03-23-2018, 04:47 AM
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#104
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
Jim we all do things because we are pressured by society.
The groups you join reward you for correct behavior.
We as a society are a group and for hundreds of years have rewarded people for good behavior.
It’s important to our society that people fit into certain norms.
Laws are the rules that guide us down the road, not perfectly but it has worked for longer than other self guided governments. I’d like to see it continue
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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there is so much here...maybe a weekend project
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03-23-2018, 05:20 AM
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#105
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F.
Jim we all do things because we are pressured by society.
The groups you join reward you for correct behavior.
We as a society are a group and for hundreds of years have rewarded people for good behavior.
It’s important to our society that people fit into certain norms.
Laws are the rules that guide us down the road, not perfectly but it has worked for longer than other self guided governments. I’d like to see it continue
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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I agree with everything you said. But I will repeat my question...aren't there already laws (reckless endangerment, maybe?) which make it illegal to leave guns around where children can get them?
Some laws are effective (seat belt laws, as Spence mentioned, God knows how many lives they save), Some laws, for reasons I do not pretend to know, are not as effective.
So what law would you pass, which doesn't already exist, to prevent these things...and how would you enforce it?
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03-23-2018, 05:47 AM
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#106
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT
So what law would you pass, which doesn't already exist, to prevent these things...and how would you enforce it?
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clearly...you could start by banning uneducated white trash from owning any kind of firearm...that would go a long in solving many of the country's problems....enforce it with the death penalty...which would also serve as a deterrent...
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03-23-2018, 07:37 AM
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#107
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Canceled
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 13,075
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Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!
Niles: You have met “people”, haven’t you?
Lets Go Darwin
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03-23-2018, 08:06 AM
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#108
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
clearly...you could start by banning uneducated white trash from owning any kind of firearm...that would go a long in solving many of the country's problems....enforce it with the death penalty...which would also serve as a deterrent...
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I'm sure there are still a lot of southerners around who administered those literacy tests to Blacks. Maybe they can help.
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03-23-2018, 09:21 AM
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#109
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS
I'm sure there are still a lot of southerners around who administered those literacy tests to Blacks. Maybe they can help.
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Since you brought up the south, blacks, in a discussion about guns and the NRA...
How many high school students who walked out last week, how many of the kids on CNN every night calling for gun control, and how many of their history teachers...are aware of the fact that the NRA helped blacks who lived in the segregated south, by arming them after the racists took their guns? I bet those history teachers know when Stalin and Mao were born, but I bet they don't know that little historical tidbit.
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03-23-2018, 09:57 AM
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#110
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,242
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Good point (if true). Too bad the NRA has gone off the deep end and has gotten so extreme.
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03-23-2018, 12:56 PM
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#111
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bethany CT
Posts: 2,877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT
Since you brought up the south, blacks, in a discussion about guns and the NRA...
How many high school students who walked out last week, how many of the kids on CNN every night calling for gun control, and how many of their history teachers...are aware of the fact that the NRA helped blacks who lived in the segregated south, by arming them after the racists took their guns? I bet those history teachers know when Stalin and Mao were born, but I bet they don't know that little historical tidbit.
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Where you get that info? It seems like you might be promoting teaching of unsubstantiated or false claims. The things I find are more like:
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...n-fact-checks/
The National Rifle Association was "founded by religious leaders who wanted to protect freed slaves from the Ku Klux Klan."
Our rating: Pants on Fire.
This claim was made in 2013 by Harry Alford, president and chief executive officer of the D.C.-based National Black Chamber of Commerce and was shared by the Milwaukee County Republican Party.
We found the NRA itself said it was formed by Union Civil War veterans to improve soldiers’ marksmanship. And we found no evidence that religious leaders founded the NRA to protect freed slaves from the KKK."
Even separate from the issue of the founding of the NRA, I can't find any info that says they helped slaves. Could be true, I just cant find anything on it.
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No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
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03-23-2018, 01:34 PM
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#112
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy
Where you get that info? It seems like you might be promoting teaching of unsubstantiated or false claims. The things I find are more like:
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...n-fact-checks/
The National Rifle Association was "founded by religious leaders who wanted to protect freed slaves from the Ku Klux Klan."
Our rating: Pants on Fire.
This claim was made in 2013 by Harry Alford, president and chief executive officer of the D.C.-based National Black Chamber of Commerce and was shared by the Milwaukee County Republican Party.
We found the NRA itself said it was formed by Union Civil War veterans to improve soldiers’ marksmanship. And we found no evidence that religious leaders founded the NRA to protect freed slaves from the KKK."
Even separate from the issue of the founding of the NRA, I can't find any info that says they helped slaves. Could be true, I just cant find anything on it.
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I don’t think I sad anything about how it why it was founded. I said they helped blacks defend themselves. I didn’t know that was in dispute, I’ve seen a lot of blacks claim they got guns from the NRA. In any event, as Paul said, their mission statement is quite different today.
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03-23-2018, 11:22 PM
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#113
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bethany CT
Posts: 2,877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT
I don’t think I sad anything about how it why it was founded. I said they helped blacks defend themselves. I didn’t know that was in dispute, I’ve seen a lot of blacks claim they got guns from the NRA. In any event, as Paul said, their mission statement is quite different today.
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Right. I pointed out that the only thing I could find was about a bogus claim about the founding of the nra., but I found nothing that even marginally supports your statement that the NRA helped blacks who had their guns taken by racists. You said history teachers know mao and Stalin, but not that tidbit. Where did you get that info? You put it out as fact. You specifically said "aware of the fact..." It is likely a bogus claim related to the false statement about the founding I referenced. Even if true it is irrelevant to the students who walked out 125 years later. Why do you think it is a fact?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
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03-24-2018, 08:32 AM
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#114
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Certifiable Intertidal Anguiologist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Somewhere between OOB & west of Watch Hill
Posts: 35,134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT
Since you brought up the south, blacks, in a discussion about guns and the NRA...
How many high school students who walked out last week, how many of the kids on CNN every night calling for gun control, and how many of their history teachers...are aware of the fact that the NRA helped blacks who lived in the segregated south, by arming them after the racists took their guns? I bet those history teachers know when Stalin and Mao were born, but I bet they don't know that little historical tidbit.
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Some NRA people perhaps did help (Spence level remote association ) but not because they were NRA but because the Republicans, some affiliated with the nascent and generally unrelated NRA of the day, were trying to reduce the pressure on black's in the south after the Civil War. Shortly after the Civil War, blacks were able to vote and some went to Congress as representatives for their areas. The 1870s and post CW reconstruction were a severe period of upheaval.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS
Good point (if true). Too bad the NRA has gone off the deep end and has gotten so extreme.
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How has the NRA gone off the deep end and gotten extreme? Do you feel that the ALCU should be disbanded due to their fervent support of first amendment rights?
Did the NRA cause these school shootings? Did NRA Members do the mass shooting?
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~Fix the Bait~ ~Pogies Forever~
Striped Bass Fishing - All Stripers
Kobayashi Maru Election - there is no way to win.
Apocalypse is Coming:
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03-24-2018, 08:40 AM
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#115
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Also known as OAK
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Westlery, RI
Posts: 10,369
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Anyone boycotting the Patriots after Kraft loaned the team plane to fly kids down to the rally today?
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03-24-2018, 09:07 AM
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#116
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Certifiable Intertidal Anguiologist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Somewhere between OOB & west of Watch Hill
Posts: 35,134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND
Anyone boycotting the Patriots after Kraft loaned the team plane to fly kids down to the rally today?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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Conflicted, he is flying people to promote their 1A rights at the expense of their 2A rights.
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~Fix the Bait~ ~Pogies Forever~
Striped Bass Fishing - All Stripers
Kobayashi Maru Election - there is no way to win.
Apocalypse is Coming:
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03-24-2018, 09:23 AM
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#117
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,718
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NRA is extreme, but it is their cause without compromise. I just think Kraft is just being compassionate in the aftermath of a national tragedy. Sometimes it has nothing to do with rights and more about being a human being with resources to help restore faith.He is a good man.
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03-24-2018, 09:50 AM
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#118
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
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Excerpts from Wikipedia:
Robert Franklin Williams (February 26, 1925 – October 15, 1996) was an American civil rights leader and author best known for serving as president of the Monroe, North Carolina chapter of the NAACP in the 1950s and into 1961. He succeeded in integrating the local public library and swimming pool in Monroe. At a time of high racial tension and official abuses, Williams promoted armed black self-defense in the United States . . .Williams obtained a charter from the National Rifle Association and set up a rifle club to defend blacks in Jonesboro from Ku Klux Klan or other attackers . . . Alarmed at the threat to civil rights activists, Williams had applied to the National Rifle Association (NRA) for a charter for a local rifle club.[15] He called the Monroe Chapter of the NRA the Black Armed Guard; it was made up of about 50–60 men, including some veterans like him. They were determined to defend the local black community from racist attacks, a goal similar to that of the Deacons for Defense who established chapters in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama in 1964-1965.[16]
Newtown was the black residential area of Monroe. In the summer of 1957, there were rumors that the KKK was going to attack the house of Dr. Albert Perry, a practicing physician and vice-president of the Monroe NAACP. Williams and his men of the Armed Guard went to Perry's house to defend it, fortifying it with sandbags. When numerous KKK members appeared and shot from their cars, Williams and his followers returned the fire, driving them away.[17]
"After this clash the same city officials who said the Klan had a constitutional right to organize met in an emergency session and passed a city ordinance banning the Klan from Monroe without a special permit from the police chief."[14]
In Negroes with Guns, Williams writes:
"[R]acists consider themselves superior beings and are not willing to exchange their superior lives for our inferior ones. They are most vicious and violent when they can practice violence with impunity."[18] He wrote, "It has always been an accepted right of Americans, as the history of our Western states proves, that where the law is unable, or unwilling, to enforce order, the citizens can, and must act in self-defense against lawless violence."[
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03-24-2018, 10:19 AM
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#119
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bethany CT
Posts: 2,877
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Oh so what he meant to say was a black man got an NRA charter so that black men could defend black people against the KKK. That clearly should be up there on highschool curriculum hierarchy with mao and Stalin.
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