Slot Limit - Revised

[piemma]

WE NEED A MORATORIUM!!!

[tlapinski]

The drop in slot range protects the 2015 year class which, if I remember correctly, was the last good YOY index in the CB. There was discussion to setting a slot for commercial, but it was just that, discussion. The reason for the com regs to be as they are, from what I remember from when the slot was enacted, is to streamline enforcement as essentially any fish being harvested over 35" must come with a commercial license. Fair and equitable? Perhaps not, but if anglers could just be trusted to do the right thing in the first place, then it wouldn't be an issue

With the rec cut being in the range of 60% (I heard that number being thrown around but do not have it verified so do not hold me to it) there is good argument for commercial to take some sort of a cut in the near future, but this action does more good right now for the population. The emergency action is only in place for 180 days and therefore will be revisited at the summer meeting in August. At that time they can extend for 1 year, drop or modify it.

I am and have always been 100% recreational angler, but as is always lost in these discussions, commercial does not take the big piece of the striped bass harvest pie. It is us (or most of use in here anyway) the private recreational anglers who do the lion's share of the damage. You literally need to quintuple (multiply by 5) the annual commercial harvest to eclipse the annual recreational harvest, and even then you only do so by 4%. I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, and I am not trying to start a pissing match with anyone, I just feel there is a need to point out some facts when all the finger pointing goes elsewhere. Would a moratorium help? Sure, but it is not the magic bullet to fix all problems.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by tlapinski

I am and have always been 100% recreational angler, but as is always lost in these discussions, commercial does not take the big piece of the striped bass harvest pie. It is us (or most of use in here anyway) the private recreational anglers who do the lion's share of the damage. You literally need to quintuple (multiply by 5) the annual commercial harvest to eclipse the annual recreational harvest, and even then you only do so by 4%. I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, and I am not trying to start a pissing match with anyone, I just feel there is a need to point out some facts when all the finger pointing goes elsewhere. Would a moratorium help? Sure, but it is not the magic bullet to fix all problems.

I agree that we, the Rec. angler do a multiple of the damage to the stocks (harvest and release mortality) but even if the multiple is 5 times, EACH Comm. does prob. 10 times more damage vs EACH Rec. angler. I just think it is silly to ignore that and compare the 2 sectors while ignore the # of fisherman in each segment.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by zimmy

It is a fisheries based decision. The slot increases the chance that harvested fish are male. 36"+ fish will be prime breeding sized females. The fact that it isn't a full moratorium is a dollars decision.

^^^

Originally Posted by tlapinski

The drop in slot range protects the 2015 year class which, if I remember correctly, was the last good YOY index in the CB. There was discussion to setting a slot for commercial, but it was just that, discussion. The reason for the com regs to be as they are, from what I remember from when the slot was enacted, is to streamline enforcement as essentially any fish being harvested over 35" must come with a commercial license. Fair and equitable? Perhaps not, but if anglers could just be trusted to do the right thing in the first place, then it wouldn't be an issue

With the rec cut being in the range of 60% (I heard that number being thrown around but do not have it verified so do not hold me to it) there is good argument for commercial to take some sort of a cut in the near future, but this action does more good right now for the population. The emergency action is only in place for 180 days and therefore will be revisited at the summer meeting in August. At that time they can extend for 1 year, drop or modify it.

I am and have always been 100% recreational angler, but as is always lost in these discussions, commercial does not take the big piece of the striped bass harvest pie. It is us (or most of use in here anyway) the private recreational anglers who do the lion's share of the damage. You literally need to quintuple (multiply by 5) the annual commercial harvest to eclipse the annual recreational harvest, and even then you only do so by 4%. I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, and I am not trying to start a pissing match with anyone, I just feel there is a need to point out some facts when all the finger pointing goes elsewhere. Would a moratorium help? Sure, but it is not the magic bullet to fix all problems.

Should have rolled it all back, equally, a decade ago when we were watching the decline in real time.

[tlapinski]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I agree that we, the Rec. angler do a multiple of the damage to the stocks (harvest and release mortality) but even if the multiple is 5 times, EACH Comm. does prob. 10 times more damage vs EACH Rec. angler. I just think it is silly to ignore that and compare the 2 sectors while ignore the # of fisherman in each segment.

While it might be true that on a per-angler basis the removals are not equitable, I would have to see or do the math to know if it is accurate and that is not what we are discussing here. I am sure it is out there somewhere, but that doesn't change how many fish are being killed annually. Do you think the fish care if you kill them as opposed to someone who holds a commercial license?

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by tlapinski

While it might be true that on a per-angler basis the removals are not equitable, I would have to see or do the math to know if it is accurate and that is not what we are discussing here. I am sure it is out there somewhere, but that doesn't change how many fish are being killed annually. Do you think the fish care if you kill them as opposed to someone who holds a commercial license?

No, a dead fish is a dead fish. But we are allowing each comm. to kill many more fish than each rec. angler. Seems unfair to put limits on one sector w/o any impact to the other sector and ignoring that 10% - 20%??? mortality bc it is a smaller % of the problem.

[DZ]

I believe they went to a slot because most people wanted a slot option at the time. Personally I'm fine with it.

[piemma]

Originally Posted by PaulS

No, a dead fish is a dead fish. But we are allowing each comm. to kill many more fish than each rec. angler. Seems unfair to put limits on one sector w/o any impact to the other sector and ignoring that 10% - 20%??? mortality bc it is a smaller % of the problem.

EXACTLY!!!! Toby, while I agree and there is empirical evidence, that the recs kill fish thru lousy C&R, there is no denying that the comm guys kill substancially more fish then is realized. There is the "market" and there is the "grey market". The back door of restaurants that buy, illegally from comms.
To say this doesn't exist is sticking your head in the sand. This is where a complete moratorium would help. If no one can have, sell, keep, kill, trade, whatever, Bass then the stocks would recover. It worked in the late 80s and it would work again.

[hq2]

As always, the regs are chasing a receding tide. They usually wind up doing what they should have done a few years before, and when they finally get them in it's too late to stop further loss of the fishery, so then they have to tighten them up yet again. At this point, I've pretty much resigned myself to never seeing good SB fishing in my lifetime fishing window. I'm guessing it would take a decade for the fishery to recover with any kind of reasonable measures, and by that time I'll be too old to bother. At least, like a lot of people on this board, I have many happy memories during the restoration about 15 or 20 years ago. Will have to fish for something else in the coming years.

[tlapinski]

Originally Posted by piemma

EXACTLY!!!! Toby, while I agree and there is empirical evidence, that the recs kill fish thru lousy C&R, there is no denying that the comm guys kill substancially more fish then is realized. There is the "market" and there is the "grey market". The back door of restaurants that buy, illegally from comms.
To say this doesn't exist is sticking your head in the sand. This is where a complete moratorium would help. If no one can have, sell, keep, kill, trade, whatever, Bass then the stocks would recover. It worked in the late 80s and it would work again.

Those guys - commercials who sell illegally - are not commercials just as recs who poach are not recs. I've said this a million times but they are POACHERS and should not be lumped as such as the designation of rec/com relates not just to a license to sell, but harvest allocation.

I know of - confirmed through conversations with, not just hearsay and speculation - a disgusting number of recreational anglers who sell illegally. I also know plenty of coms who do so. Many of these men and women are those who a lot of us look up to and some of us such as yourself used to fish right alongside. Hell, I was approached openly at the RISAA show several years ago by 2 individuals trying to put me in direct contact with a person who would buy all the bass I could supply them with! Neither of these people held a com license at the time as best I know, but one of them has since gotten their captain's license. I was as much pissed off that they would do this publicly as I was the fact that they were so open about it and flat out didn't care.

There is recreational, there is commercial, and there are the poachers.

And to think just because "striped bass" cannot be sold commercially will end the selling of striped bass flesh is absurd. The amount of fish sold as and consumed under the name of another is profound. Again, this is not hear say but from enforcement actions, news stories and conversations with former seafood buyers.

I know this kind of conversation is a losing battle but it bothers me to no end when the blame is forced elsewhere in the face of glaring evidence.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by PaulS

No, a dead fish is a dead fish. But we are allowing each comm. to kill many more fish than each rec. angler. Seems unfair to put limits on one sector w/o any impact to the other sector and ignoring that 10% - 20%??? mortality bc it is a smaller % of the problem.

Increased restrictions on a rec fisherman's catch reduces their chances of keeping a fish. Increased restrictions on the commercial harvest limits reduces the chance of an economically viable industry. It does on the surface seem "unfair" and I also find the whole mess frustrating, but I think that the decision comes down to the balance of sustaining both the fishery and the industry.

[wdmso]

When will the states reflect this on their Fishing regulations?

And I honestly think more than 60% of comm license holders in mass are just people looking for a pay day . Aka Comms of convenience

I know I had one and was one. . I no longer have one . But my intent was to make a quick Buck . It was never to feed my family or pay my bills . I am sure it is for some

I know there are a few charters guys who actually advertise they sell their fish from their Boats not a bad business model .

Yet Kinda playing both side of the fence

And the system allows it so I don’t fault anyone with a com license



Also I think Ma should tell all commercial Bass permit holders that all future re issue of licensing will be based on your catch and selling history . Full stop and the should re issue Black Sea bass and other species licenses that have sold a fish over 5 years

Just a little morning rant. People who go on charters love the meat off a 36 in fish they feel they got some value beyond the day on the boat. A 28 in fish they may feel differently