Got in a plover argument last night

[Swimmer]

True Likwid, about the numbers, but most of the guys I know throw every fish back trying to increase those numbers. I think its great a younger person suc as yourself is this caring. After all you get closer to mother eart than most of us with the diving you do. Most if not all of us are very concerned here, for selfish reasons, and for the good of all.

I am a little disappointed at not getting the blow by blow this winter from you.

[likwid]

Off topic:

Originally Posted by Swimmer

I am a little disappointed at not getting the blow by blow this winter from you.

I didn't work in the mountains this winter, Spent November in California (skied) then took a boat from Annapolis to the USVI in December and after that beating my back and wrists were too messed up to try to work up north.

Slowly recovering and enjoying the few very nice days we've had so far this year.

Just delivered the largest sailboat in Padanaram back to Concordia 2 weeks ago from New England Boat Works too.

[Swimmer]

I fish out of Padnaram with a buddy of mine. I am amazed at the nice sailboats that are at anchor in the inner and outer harbor there. I can tell you that in some areas of the cape such as Nauset Light I have seen several hundred feet of lost to nature in the last 35 years. There used to be a small sandwich stand at Nauset that the Whiting family owned. Used to frequent it everyday. My buddies and I used to roam the outer cape and go surfing then at places no one knew of but now are extremely popular places. The bar in Wellfleet on the ocean just up from Newcombs Hollow beach when I was a kid still had dirt on the floor in the head. Now its a wildly popular place. When I was a kid anyone got serve there and I mean everyone. Marconi beach had yet to be born, while Marconi station was there the only beach access was along and old service road along the top of the dunes that was put in place to deliver stuff to the troops in the bunkers that have seen since been removed. We used to surf down the dunes and the n rides waves all day and walk back up the dunes dog tired. I used to travel to North Beach in Chatham before the split. Used to stay in a cabin that disappeared during the bad storm in February, 1978. My opinon is that fxd's do very little damage as compared to mother nature. They do exacerbate what nature does certainly, but it is minor in comparison.

[SeaWolf]

there is one fact i do know about fighting usf&w - their law rules. we may not like it, but they go by the facts presented by their employees' reports. this is especially true on the whole piping plover situation. there are so many states effected by this bird. sure, it is easy to get on the "piping plovers taste like chicken" bandwagon. i know, i used to, but i learned to understand the facts, issues, and future. one thing is that we all need to adapt our fishing around this bird while their nesting season is on us. i know it must be especially hard on the islands and outer cape, but it's a necessary "evil" right now.

the 2003 atlantic plover population count was 1676. the numbers were increasing throught that late 90s and into the new century, but were down from 2002 count of 1690. i did not see the 2004 population report yet. these birds need a couple of things to happen before they are removed from the endanged species act (they are listed as threatened in most states): 1.) the population must hit 2000 breeding pairs; 2.) the population must have a breeding surplus (the fledged chicks must prove signs of sustaining and increasing the population) each year for a period of 5 consecutive years, i believe. now, does this mean we have 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years to go before they reach these numbers, i don't know. I do know that i am watching the numbers, working w/ f&w to build a repor with them to show we are trying to live with these birds. when these birds do reach those milestones and are removed from the endangered species act, the local states enforcement will control beach access, birds protection, etc. i would then turn my fight to try and gain the lost beach access areas taken when this bird first became listed at endanagered. i would also work to try and have a controlled time that when the birds are there, access can be limited.

one thing you must remember is who is fighting for the birds well being - green peace, audubon, etc., all "respected" and prosperous organizations. they pay a lot of money to research for this bird and other issues. they do their homework. meanwhile, fisherman are considered a threat. prove them wrong. do your homework, know the facts, and be prepared to argue your points when someone challenges your views.

[Karl F]

No doc # on that seashore report, it is titled the 1999 ORV impact study... plover's , enviro, all covered they can't pin anything on ORV.... interestly enough biggest problem in plover nests that year... washovers.... Darwin award winners, them plovers... biggest cause of erosion as well .. no chit.
Interesting read, and I do remember that MA Audobon was a little peesed at the time this study was released to the public...

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by SeaWolf

one thing you must remember is who is fighting for the birds well being - green peace, audubon, etc., all "respected" and prosperous organizations. they pay a lot of money to research for this bird and other issues.

Greenpeace?!They're almost as fanatical as PETA!

Resepected.Hardly.

Prosperous.Ya because the same Hollywood types who donate millions to PETA do the same for Greenpeace.

Greenpeace and Audubon.Night and day.

[outfished]

Greenpeace and Audubon.Night and day.[/QUOTE]

Audubon isn't much different than the rest IMO. I read that Mass. Audubon is the only one that does'nt allow hunting on its properties while other states do. Mass. Audubon was also a huge supporter of the anti-trapping laws and bear hunting law changes passed several years ago. Tree huggers is all they are.

[Ed B]

Seawolf gives some good advice and I know Karl is involved with the MBBA. Calling people a bunch of crazy treehuggers, enviro wackos or whatever suits your fancy gets you nowhere. The fact is that when an animal is on the endangered species list, a host of federal laws come into effect to protect it.

If you don't deal with these people that you view as the enemy on a rational level you will be doing more harm than good and give them more justifiable reason in their minds to restrict access. Let's face it, they view most fisherman as a bunch of trash throwing social misfits. The smart thing to do is to support those who take up the cause to be actively engaged like the fishing clubs and buggy associations. Let the people who chose to become knowledgeable on the issues discuss the concerns, and never ever mess with a nesting area.

Like it or not, the state Audobon societies are funded by wealthy and politically connected members in our communities, I recently saw the annual financial report from the RI Audobon Society that they send out to their members and they have assets as I recall in the order of $25 million. I would expect Massachusetts Audobon is many times as big as that. We have to stick up for our rights but we have to work with them.

Ed

[likwid]

Originally Posted by outfished

Audubon isn't much different than the rest IMO. I read that Mass. Audubon is the only one that does'nt allow hunting on its properties while other states do. Mass. Audubon was also a huge supporter of the anti-trapping laws and bear hunting law changes passed several years ago. Tree huggers is all they are.

Whats wrong with supporting something they beleive in?
As far as I'm concerned its a heartless and pathetic method of "hunting" (trapping) Any idiot can put a bear trap out with some bait and come back the next day and have something.

And whats wrong with no hunting on THEIR property? Its no different than a landowner telling you not to hunt on his land.