They Think It Can't Happen Here Again!!!! - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

likwid · 07-07-2005, 01:15 PM

Army giving 5 more billion to Halliburton to do jobs the Army should be doing.

Surprise? Nah, none here.

Homerun04 · 07-07-2005, 01:17 PM

Same s**t, different war.......

BigFish · 07-07-2005, 01:21 PM

We should not be doing anything!!!!!! We completed our mission when we removed Saddam from power.....no WMD's....our bad but then it turned into a "lets rebuild Iraq and put our own system in place to run the country and that way everyone will forget that the real reason we were there was to find the WMD's"! We are paying the freight for cryin' out loud......why? Gas prices are at an all time high and we...the American public are getting royally screwed!!!!! This country is in dire need of some reform let me tell you....and you think an uprising can't happen here? We need some change here!

Homerun04 · 07-07-2005, 01:28 PM

I agree BF.....but one question....

Quote:

no WMD's

Why is it that EVERYBODY forgets the REALITY that WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT SADDAM HAD WMD......HE USED THEM TO KILL OVER 200,000 SUNNIS AND KURDS. This is undisputable and part of the public record.

We may not have found WMD in Iraq, but we know they have the technology to build them (mostly biological) at any time they liked. I guess the question is: do we attack after the weapons are made, or before they are made? These are not stock-pile type weapons. They can be made easily at any time.

BTW - it ALSO pisses me off to no end that the American people (or more accurately our pocket-books) are being used to subsidize the entire world. Yet we have no jobs here, and many people struggling to make ends meet in the USA.....

spence · 07-07-2005, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homerun04

I agree BF.....but one question.... Why is it that EVERYBODY forgets the REALITY that WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT SADDAM HAD WMD......HE USED THEM TO KILL OVER 200,000 SUNNIS AND KURDS. This is undisputable and part of the public record.

The key word is HAD.

The administration said as fact they knew Saddam had stockpiles. Rummy even went so far as to say he knew where they were. The reality is we nothing to justify these claims aside from some unaccounted for stocks that hadn't been destroyed by the time the inspectors left. WMD that had a short shelf life anyway...

The important point is that we've set the bar so low for justification we couldn't ever repeat it and out credibility is seriously damaged.

Why is this important?

Our credibility and moral high ground give us the freedom to address the real threats without the same resistance. In other words, it's impacted our ability to keep it from happening again.

-spence

Raven · 07-07-2005, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homerun04

BTW - it ALSO pisses me off to no end that the American people (or more accurately our pocket-books) are being used to subsidize the entire world. Yet we have no jobs here, and many people struggling to make ends meet in the USA.....

right on....homerun04
if you think about the money being spent daily on the war on drugs....the war in Iraq, afghanistan, and every where else we're having to play world cop,,,,, and what that money could do for us Americans as part of their states budget...it's mind boggling. Easily we could give each state in america a 2 billion dollar + boost if were were not engaged in all these endeavors. Those huge BLACK triangular area 51 aircraft seen by thousands of Americans floating over head with no sound what so ever,,,,are the secret aircraft of Armegeden.... and i have no doubt that we shall prevail....but we dont want to do it pre-emptively which is feared to be looked at historically as a non American type of approach based on principle
and will probably only be used in retalliation.

likwid · 07-07-2005, 01:30 PM

We didn't find any technology either.

Its a known fact the weapons they used in Iran were given to them (by us in part... the VX was traced to a chemical company in the US) but how much "technology" they got is a whole other question.

Its all retarded if you ask me.

Homerun04 · 07-07-2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Its all retarded if you ask me.

Yep

BigFish · 07-07-2005, 01:31 PM

Those deaths, if I am not mistaken, happened before Iraq invaded Kuwait? Not after the rules were set in place to prohibit Iraq from having them. I believe they are still there somewhere! Saddam needed removing and that reason for going into Iraq is good enough for me but we should have packed it up and left that %$%$%$%$te-hole to itself after we got the head honcho.......I believe we are only there now to police the region until Bin Laden is apprehended....they are just trying to limit his options for hiding.

MakoMike · 07-07-2005, 02:00 PM

This country, as well as almost all others in history, have never just packed up and gone home after a war. the only time we didn't do it was when we lost, i.e. Vietnam. We still have troops in Germany and Japan over 50 years after we defeated them. So would anyone in their right mind suspect that Iraq would be different? Leaving a country after you have defeated them is simply a receipe for another war in a decade or so.

BigFish · 07-07-2005, 02:03 PM

We did not have troops in all of Germany...just part of it after the split! Point is we were not there rebuilding it or trying to govern it!

Mike P · 07-07-2005, 06:55 PM

If it happened in Britain, of course it could happen here.

Britain's intelligence services are the equal of anyone's.

They don't have a written constitution with a Bill of Rights. There's no 4th Amendment in the UK, and their courts don't have an exclusionary rule that prohibits the introduction of illegally obtained evidence.

Their intelligence and law enforcement people aren't hamstrung by their laws, and they have much more leeway to conduct wiretaps, other electronic surveillance and warrantless searches of premises.

Almost 35 years of IRA terrorism has given their law enforcement people a lot of experience, and their laws allow the authorities to detain terrorist suspects without bringing charges, sometimes "At Her Majesty's Pleasure", which means they throw away the key.

Their miltary special operations folks are the gold standard world-wide and they can be employed domestically. And have been reputed to have been used as hit squads against the IRA and INLF.

And, you have to believe that whatever intelligence the US has gleaned against Al Queda and its friends since 9/11 has been shared with the Brits.

JohnR · 07-07-2005, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFish

We did not have troops in all of Germany...just part of it after the split! Point is we were not there rebuilding it or trying to govern it!

Ever here of the uhh, err, Marshall PLan? Technically, "WE" only had troops in 1/4th of Germany, France, the UK, and the Sovs split up the rest plus a 4 way split of Berlin (who here has taken the Berlin Night Train

). The ideological difference of the Soviets brought the Iron Curtain and resulted in the Berlin Airlift.

We did rebuild Germany and Japan and we, or at least our parents and grandparents and Capesams

, paid a goodly portion of it. We instituted the governments there and got them started too. But the German people and the Japanese people pulled themselves together and made something of their countries with PRIDE. But they were fully defeated militarily but fortunately did not have much in the way of roving hit squads and suicide bombers.

beachwalker · 07-08-2005, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnR

Ever here of the uhh, err, Marshall PLan? Technically, "WE" only had troops in 1/4th of Germany, France, the UK, and the Sovs split up the rest plus a 4 way split of Berlin (who here has taken the Berlin Night Train

). The ideological difference of the Soviets brought the Iron Curtain and resulted in the Berlin Airlift.

We did rebuild Germany and Japan and we, or at least our parents and grandparents and Capesams

, paid a goodly portion of it. We instituted the governments there and got them started too. But the German people and the Japanese people pulled themselves together and made something of their countries with PRIDE. But they were fully defeated militarily but fortunately did not have much in the way of roving hit squads and suicide bombers.

thank you john....

just last week a "master of all he surveys" was proclaiming the injustices of Gitmo and I laughed about Amnesty's comment that it was the "Gulag" of our time.

Then I mentioned that 8 or so congressman went down to review the "atrocities" (a cross section of parties mind you) and we have heard nary peep from the press since.

I think when they saw the air conditioning many of the leftists shut up.

how soon people forgot about 9/11 and Madrid and began criticising again....

Swimmer · 07-08-2005, 11:20 AM

I am addressing many issues mentioned here bear with me.

We did rebuild Germany and they paid every cent we told them it cost. They are the only country to do so. We took over Japan and instituted our form of democracy there. That was their payback. If Haliburton wasn't submitting the lowest contract bids some other company would be with "ties" to one of our current leaders.
As far as WMD's, nope no one found any amount that could be considered a stockpile. Did he have and use them in the past, just ask the KURDS. Did Saddam and his henchmen kill 300,000 non believers, just ask their families who have been digging their bodies up. And Saddam showed so much arrogance in those peoples murders he left their identification with thier bodies. 300,000 is all they have founbd so far because things are a little hot out in the desert in Iraq right now, so no looking is going on.
Why are we the only country that is supposed to be blessed with free speech and a democratic way of life? In this regard we are extremely selfish. Sure we give money, we give many things and now we are giving are most precious children to this cause. I am not referring to one person here on this
list when I say this but many people are starting to sound like Jane Fonda out there, and most of them are doing and saying things only because they want to unseat George Bush. These Fondas, certain senators and congressman,
do not really care about our servicemen and women they just want to get a democrat in the high office, which makes thier intentions rather obscene.
To say that we shouldn't be there is to say that their isn't an Iraqi worth saving. You can't always bandaid problems overseas with foreign aid and hope thing will get better. Sometimes you have to gut it up and do the right thing and sometimes that hurts.

shortwavez · 07-08-2005, 04:44 PM

its just so unfortunate that our world has come to all this...my heart and prayers go out to all those in london.

likwid · 07-08-2005, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MakoMike

We still have troops in Germany and Japan over 50 years after we defeated them.

Stop with the "we still have troops in X" because neither of those places would fall apart like Iraq would today, tomorrow, or a year from now if we pulled out.

Those are normal overseas bases, not "occupation forces".

Raven · 07-08-2005, 07:03 AM

that the enemy is as terrified of democracy as we are of terrorism.

MakoMike · 07-08-2005, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by likwid

Stop with the "we still have troops in X" because neither of those places would fall apart like Iraq would today, tomorrow, or a year from now if we pulled out.

Those are normal overseas bases, not "occupation forces".

But there is no question that they started out as "occupation forces" and the situation in Japan and Germany right after WWII was much the same as it is in Iraq today. Yes, including "insurgents" then referred to as die hards who were still fighting the allied troops well after their goverments had surrendered. Many parts of south pacific weren't "pacified" until several years after the war ended. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

MakoMike · 07-08-2005, 09:34 AM

Spence,

re:"I love how it always comes back to the "remember 9/11" mantra. Does 9/11 weaken the US Constitution? Does it give us freedom to ignore our own laws?

If the Founding Fathers were aware the US Government was secretly detaining large numbers of people without charge they would be rolling in their graves. "

I doubt that. The U.S. consitution does not apply outside the U.S.,, neither do most U.S. laws. Do you think we just tried spies during our other wars when they were caught outside the U.S.? We did, and still do, treat POWs according to the Geneva conventions. But the guys at Gitmo don't qualify for POW status, as they were never in a recognized army to start with. IMHO thay are treating the majority of those guys waaay better than they deserve.