Oct. OTW

[cheferson]

All you guys crying on here about this , probally got another 1000 copies of this months on the water bought by people who wouldnt have ever read it.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by cheferson

All you guys crying on here about this , probally got another 1000 copies of this months on the water bought by people who wouldnt have ever read it.

chef, your growing on me

[Strider]

Screw OTW.........I Don't Subscribe Anymore! Send a message that hits home and dump the Mag!

[fishaholic18]

Originally Posted by cheferson

All you guys crying on here about this , probally got another 1000 copies of this months on the water bought by people who wouldnt have ever read it.

You're right! More incentive for them to write about spots.
The mighty $$$$

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by cheferson

All you guys crying on here about this , probally got another 1000 copies of this months on the water bought by people who wouldnt have ever read it.

Yep - Gene Bourque has got to be laughing and loving this. McKenna (who really is a nice guy and an helluva angler) gets to write an article that details things to the n'th degree, which pisses off the masses, and people flock to the stores that don't subscribe... They will have fewer maggies come back at the end of the month with no income, get 10% of their subscribers that let the maggie lapse to renew, and sign up another bunch of new people. All the while someone else will take the heat... Good for him and OTW but sucks for Steve. And I like OTW, but this is where I think the maggies are sacrificing access for profit and that is completely irresponsible.

I like Gene Bourque (I'm assuming its Gene in this case but I could VERY well be wrong). I respect him and think he's a nice guy but as an editor, he has just had an article published that will generate a lot of buzz where someone else will take the hit and the maggies will move a bit better on the shelf...

As for Steve - I doubt he knew what would come of this. He is not online and has little concept of what it is like on the 'net, I don't think he even owns a computer. But I would hate to see him made out unfairly as the bad guy in all of this as he is always helping out people, new and old to the sport. He is someone that does this, not for the coin, but to give a little back that he has earned over the years. He is always giving out help at the shop he works at, when you see him at the wall in spring, or when he runs across a newbie angler - he is always offering some advice. So please don't trash him personally - and keep in mind he can't defend himself here.

In my oprinion this article might not be the wisest choice for doing that, but I can tell you that I don't think it would be malicious... I have not read the article yet so I can't completely guage how it was but if it was as detailed and burning as it seems, then he was wrong for writing it. So argue the point but don't personally attack him on this, again - ARGUE the point.

I would also hate to see a lot of people that have chased spots, people, and reports throw Steve under the bus for what he wrote. I would also hate to see people that have praised his seminar and gladly soaked up that info or those that have seen him in the shop jump on him personally about it. Instead, jump on the culture that pushes this....

Originally Posted by fishaholic18

You're right! More incentive for them to write about spots.
The mighty $$$$

Dave - I don't think the paltry amount he got paid entered his thinking very much. It won't pay for gas for a month to fish those spots. It is more incentive for the Maggies to encourage it though. 'Course, this raises another question - how much is it worth in dollars to lose access to a spot that can't handle much public pressure? What is the price tag on a spot?

[fishaholic18]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Dave - I don't think the paltry amount he got paid entered his thinking very much. It won't pay for gas for a month to fish those spots. It is more incentive for the Maggies to encourage it though. 'Course, this raises another question - how much is it worth in dollars to lose access to a spot that can't handle much public pressure? What is the price tag on a spot?

I wasn't just refering to Steve, more about writers in general.
Can you put a price on a spot? I don't think any of us guys who are serious about this "Striper Catching sickness" could. Hell, most of us neglect our families to catch fricken fish How pathetic are we???

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by fishaholic18

I wasn't just refering to Steve, more about writers in general.
Can you put a price on a spot? I don't think any of us guys who are serious about this "Striper Catching sickness" could. Hell, most of us neglect our families to catch fricken fish How pathetic are we???

We are pretty pathetic sometimes. Maybe Canalman learned from his very detailed Wesport expose a couple years back, and maybe Steve will learn from this one. The maggies are loving the pot being stirred - free advertising... And you know, someone will just do it next month, and the month after, then someone else....

[snake slinger]

i dont know why steve wrote the article.but i can tell you steve is a great person he has helped me and showed me some great spots and is always willing help anyone so lets go easy on him!

[piemma]

I think someone mentioned that Steve isn't on the Internet and probably doesn't own a computer. Come on!! What the heck is he writing his articles with? An IBM Selectric typewriter?

[chris L]

"I like to stress technique rather than locations. If your technique is up to snuff the location stuff will fall into place with a simple recon of the beach before you at the time."

I agree totally flap .

Steve probably did think he was doing good for others that dont know but lets see next months with his favorite spot with the eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one

thats fair !

or next month will have some internet hero killing another fishing hole .

[*LB]

I don't post much here, but since I live and fish in SoCo I thought I'd throw my two cents in on this topic. I used to wonder why I'd show up at a spot to fish and find it suddenly packed with guys who weren't there the day before, especially since the fishing had been slow. I started to figure out that there was some kind of communication network that I wasn't paying attention to (internet and print) and spots were being "burned". At first I'd get pissed there was some guy on "my rock" and I'd bitch to myself about the Massachusetts plates on all the trucks . . . but I'd eventually get over myself and go find another place to fish (I hate crowds). Eventually it led me to fish in places that were difficult to get to, not impossible, just inconvenient and sometimes uncomfortable. Throw in some darkness, bad weather and big waves and I rarely even see other people when I'm out now. I don't think my new spots are any better than the old ones, but the fact that I'm not crossing lines with the "bucket & lantern" crowd and I'm putting in some extra effort to fish beyond the "easy" spots makes the whole experience more enjoyable to me. When I go out tonight it will be not too far from some well-known spots, but just far enough that I'll work up a good sweat from trudging through soft sand in my cheapo neoprene waders to get there, and I'll probably be soaked from the rain as well. I'll have to wade thirty yards out to "my rock" and hopefully I won't take any waves over my waders on the way out (the wade out is always a pain in the ass, but I don't feel like such a jerk for calling it "my" rock when I finally get out on it). Chances are there won't be another soul in sight, despite the fact that conditions should be excellent. If I happen to spot the silent red blink of a fellow striperman's headlamp I can be certain that he's not worried about his spot being burned either.

I haven't read the OTW article (although I'm tempted to now), but it doesn't surprise me. If you fish a public spot with reasonable access and half-way decent fishing it's only a matter of time before the spot is burned. I think the same spots have been getting burned over and over for years . . . but then people forget and move on the next "hot spot" and around it goes. I don't think the public spot burners do anyone a favor in the long run, including themselves, but it's an inevitable part of the scene.

The googans who chase spots they read about on the internet or in a magazine usually don't know what to do once they get there anyway. Just think about how long it takes to really understand fishing from a single rock at a single spot. It can take a whole season of fishing a particular spot before you realize what it takes to catch anything other than a lucky migratory schoolie. Mr. Googan is going to get discouraged soon after he realizes that the black stuff on the rocks is slippery and that standing around in soaking wet jeans gets pretty cold after a while. He wonders why he hasn't seen or caught a fish in the whole two hours he's been there, even though the sharpie magazine writer said they pull'em outta that spot hand over fist. Eventually he leaves in disgust, but not before throwing his box of mackerel chunks and empty beer cans in the bushes (he doesn't want to smell up his truck, after all). The final insult is the old guy who yells at him for pissing in his backyard on the way out. No way he's putting up with this SoCo crap again, he hears they're bangin' 'em on the Cape anyhow, maybe he'll head up there next weekend . . .

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by *LB

I don't post much here, but since I live and fish in SoCo I thought I'd throw my two cents in on this topic. I used to wonder why I'd show up at a spot to fish and find it suddenly packed with guys who weren't there the day before, especially since the fishing had been slow. I started to figure out that there was some kind of communication network that I wasn't paying attention to (internet and print) and spots were being "burned". At first I'd get pissed there was some guy on "my rock" and I'd bitch to myself about the Massachusetts plates on all the trucks . . . but I'd eventually get over myself and go find another place to fish (I hate crowds). Eventually it led me to fish in places that were difficult to get to, not impossible, just inconvenient and sometimes uncomfortable. Throw in some darkness, bad weather and big waves and I rarely even see other people when I'm out now. I don't think my new spots are any better than the old ones, but the fact that I'm not crossing lines with the "bucket & lantern" crowd and I'm putting in some extra effort to fish beyond the "easy" spots makes the whole experience more enjoyable to me. When I go out tonight it will be not too far from some well-known spots, but just far enough that I'll work up a good sweat from trudging through soft sand in my cheapo neoprene waders to get there, and I'll probably be soaked from the rain as well. I'll have to wade thirty yards out to "my rock" and hopefully I won't take any waves over my waders on the way out (the wade out is always a pain in the ass, but I don't feel like such a jerk for calling it "my" rock when I finally get out on it). Chances are there won't be another soul in sight, despite the fact that conditions should be excellent. If I happen to spot the silent red blink of a fellow striperman's headlamp I can be certain that he's not worried about his spot being burned either.

I haven't read the OTW article (although I'm tempted to now), but it doesn't surprise me. If you fish a public spot with reasonable access and half-way decent fishing it's only a matter of time before the spot is burned. I think the same spots have been getting burned over and over for years . . . but then people forget and move on the next "hot spot" and around it goes. I don't think the public spot burners do anyone a favor in the long run, including themselves, but it's an inevitable part of the scene.

The googans who chase spots they read about on the internet or in a magazine usually don't know what to do once they get there anyway. Just think about how long it takes to really understand fishing from a single rock at a single spot. It can take a whole season of fishing a particular spot before you realize what it takes to catch anything other than a lucky migratory schoolie. Mr. Googan is going to get discouraged soon after he realizes that the black stuff on the rocks is slippery and that standing around in soaking wet jeans gets pretty cold after a while. He wonders why he hasn't seen or caught a fish in the whole two hours he's been there, even though the sharpie magazine writer said they pull'em outta that spot hand over fist. Eventually he leaves in disgust, but not before throwing his box of mackerel chunks and empty beer cans in the bushes (he doesn't want to smell up his truck, after all). The final insult is the old guy who yells at him for pissing in his backyard on the way out. No way he's putting up with this SoCo crap again, he hears they're bangin' 'em on the Cape anyhow, maybe he'll head up there next weekend . . .

Good post - the only thing that really scares me is the last couple sentences - and that's what it boils down to for me in most cases, usually some recent land owner that has little tolerence or respect for public access and its hard to blame the person when Joe Twelve Pack has crapped on the yard and left the empties and bait wrappers. Sure that is a generalization but not too far from the truth...

[fishaholic18]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Maybe Canalman learned from his very detailed Wesport expose a couple years back, .

I slapped him real hard with my eel for that one.
He learned...

[Canalman]

Actually, I didn't get any flack for that one... surprisingly

[TheSpecialist]

Steve the boat and trailer are registered, just need to finish up some wiring.

[bloocrab]

After reading this thread...

John brings up the MOST important point -

LOSS OF ACCESS!

No matter how you approach it, whether you're a week-end warrior or a daily dipper..."spot burning" or whatever you want to call it, lures the lazy. For every 1 serious fisherman who may learn from a write-up likes Steves' there will be 10 others just looking for some easy fishing...and from these 10, 5 will litter or raise enough havoc while fishing.,, whether it be an arguement with a home-owner or just making a loud entrance or exit to start the process of losing the spot.
Sure, some guys are just plain nice...and they have every right to share whatever they want with anyone they want, but one should keep such detailed information for a private conversation, not a broadcast message...

Lazy people need spots
Lazy people don't take trash home nor take the time to properly dispose of trash while fishing...it's too much work,,,just like finding your own spots or deviations of spots you've fished or heard of. Lazy people need spots. Lazy people will park in the wrong spot because it's closer instead of making the trek from safer parking because it's too much of a walk.

In case some of you haven't noticed, we don't ALL look at this sport the same way. You need to read deeper into the posts and who the postee' is...before even responding sometimes...most of the guys who are fine/OK with that write-up are still looking for unearned spots, lazy or just defending Steve due to friendship...to each his own. I think it was too detailed...way-so.

Just my $.02 . .. .I'm still learning - Mahalo!

Actually, I didn't get any flack for that one... surprisingly

You didn't gain any respect from me with that one... here's some late flack

[SBASS1]

Oh he just promoted it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JohnR who did TC buy his cod/blackfish #'s from this year...

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by SBASS1

Oh he just promoted it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JohnR who did TC buy his cod/blackfish #'s from this year...

SBASS - I have no idea what you are talking about. I no longer subscribe to the fisherman or OTW (though I debate but never get around to re-upping my OTW subscription). I think the lengths that the Fisherman goes through talking about spots and reports is to the detriment of the sport. I like and respect TC but I don't like how he puts up a lot of info on spots that are not his favorites, at the detriment of others. At the same time, The Fisherman is always reprinting articles from 3-5-10 years before when it comes to spots or methods and just throwing in new pictures. Sometimes you can tell what those articles are and sometimes not... Now this may have changed over the past year or so but I doubt it.

So you know, I am against spot specifics and have been so for some time. I think they are best handled from person to person and not widely publicized. My greatest reason for this fear is the continuing lack of access. I have gone to too many access issue meetings and read to much about lost spots to not give a damn about spots being reported in the media. That is why I tell people here to be very general about spots and not to be specific. to distribute the load and the pressure. There are more swinging sticks out there than ever before, more people owning property on the shoreline than ever before, and more outlets reporting and writing spots than ever before - this will come to a head sooner as opposed to later. This is why I say the CULTURE is the problem. It is just enhanced that the maggies are the ones that profit from it and most of us are too stupid or better, not caring about it to recognize the problem.

Flap - I respect you and your writing, I also respect your decisions on how you write and how you share. You are more of the example on what to do instead of how it is typically done. You also have a significant advantage over Steve when it comes to writing this. I think this is only his second article, the first being a How-To.

Oh - one more thing for everyone to digest, we have all seen many articles, several by people that are members here, on these spots like the River and the Island and the Channel. So don't attack Steve from doing what others like Joe and Dave and countless others, have done. Change the culture. Change the problem. Like the problem with a health bass population is not too much commercial fishing - that's the easy target - it is more than anything the lack of good bait in the entire ecosystem. Here the solution is not to attck Steve for an article (even wrong if it may have been), but that the culture that spots and access are the key to successful writing and profit instead of being protect for what they are, dwindling resources of access for the regular surfcaster. We are cutting are own feet off when we do this...

Originally Posted by piemma

I think someone mentioned that Steve isn't on the Internet and probably doesn't own a computer. Come on!! What the heck is he writing his articles with? An IBM Selectric typewriter?

Probably, or he wrote it out and mailed it in, or he used a computer at work. Now I don't want to say I told you so but remember at the beginning of the year when we had the PMs going back and fro about spots - see what I mean??

[PNG]

Originally Posted by JohnR

SBASS - I have no idea what you are talking about. I no longer subscribe to the fisherman or OTW (though I debate but never get around to re-upping my OTW subscription). I think the lengths that the Fisherman goes through talking about spots and reports is to the detriment of the sport. I like and respect TC but I don't like how he puts up a lot of info on spots that are not his favorites, at the detriment of others. At the same time, The Fisherman is always reprinting articles from 3-5-10 years before when it comes to spots or methods and just throwing in new pictures. Sometimes you can tell what those articles are and sometimes not... Now this may have changed over the past year or so but I doubt it.

So you know, I am against spot specifics and have been so for some time. I think they are best handled from person to person and not widely publicized. My greatest reason for this fear is the continuing lack of access. I have gone to too many access issue meetings and read to much about lost spots to not give a damn about spots being reported in the media. That is why I tell people here to be very general about spots and not to be specific. to distribute the load and the pressure. There are more swinging sticks out there than ever before, more people owning property on the shoreline than ever before, and more outlets reporting and writing spots than ever before - this will come to a head sooner as opposed to later. This is why I say the CULTURE is the problem. It is just enhanced that the maggies are the ones that profit from it and most of us are too stupid or better, not caring about it to recognize the problem.

Flap - I respect you and your writing, I also respect your decisions on how you write and how you share. You are more of the example on what to do instead of how it is typically done. You also have a significant advantage over Steve when it comes to writing this. I think this is only his second article, the first being a How-To.

Oh - one more thing for everyone to digest, we have all seen many articles, several by people that are members here, on these spots like the River and the Island and the Channel. So don't attack Steve from doing what others like Joe and Dave and countless others, have done. Change the culture. Change the problem. Like the problem with a health bass population is not too much commercial fishing - that's the easy target - it is more than anything the lack of good bait in the entire ecosystem. Here the solution is not to attck Steve for an article (even wrong if it may have been), but that the culture that spots and access are the key to successful writing and profit instead of being protect for what they are, dwindling resources of access for the regular surfcaster. We are cutting are own feet off when we do this...

Probably, or he wrote it out and mailed it in, or he used a computer at work. Now I don't want to say I told you so but remember at the beginning of the year when we had the PMs going back and fro about spots - see what I mean??

You sure are windy today

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by PNG

You sure are windy today

- well, two things caused that - spots - one of my pet peeves and I am home sick today with poops and pukes so I have more time on the soap box (I really do work bell to bell in my real job) - TMI, I know...

[Saltheart]

It takes a while to realize how damaging mass media spot talk can be. Lots of us learned back about 1997-1999. We spoke more freely then. Spots got overrun or access got shut down. We got burned and started saying less. I bet the same thing happens with Steve.


I would totally agree that Steve is a nice guy based on my limited exposure to him. I think he made a mistake to publish about spots. The guy has paid his dues and is known to be one of the best. If he wants to part with his knowledge , he's entitled to do so. I think when he gets a taste of just how big an impact a single magazine article can have , and factors that into his thinking about crowds and access , he may think twice about doing a spots article again and stick to the how to stuff.

The idea that its OK to talk about spots you no longer fish is somewhat risky. There are some who know ALL THE SPOTS. Get them pissed off enough by burning "their" spots and you may find "your" spots burned in the next issue.

[Jim H]

WOW....haven't got my new OTW yet....can't wait to see it for myself.

I might have a solution......Maybe some of you experts can write articles about some of my personal "hotspots".

Since I am pretty new to all of this and don't catch as much as the rest of you, perhaps my "hotspots" would lure the masses away from the real "hotspots".

Sort of like DIS-information.....



Not even sure if the magazines would know we were doing it? ie...every month release lots of "hotspots"....with maps and parking locations......some work....MOST don't.

Hmmmm......I may be onto something here....

a NEW magazine.

Mine will have more spots than all the rest combined! Hell...if people are willing to spend TONS of their hard earned (or state provided) money on lottery tickets with the odds of hitting it BIG in the double digit millions-to-one, just imagine how many "fisherman" would buy my HOTSPOTS magazine....playing the odds of hitting a good fishing spot!

Need a nice looking cover-girl (err....person) too. Cause besides HOTSPOTS...the only other thing that sells magazines is...well...you know

sorry, just trying to get a laugh out of some of you on a tough subject.

[JFigliuolo]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Yep - Gene Bourque has got to be laughing and loving this. McKenna (who really is a nice guy and an helluva angler) gets to write an article that details things to the n'th degree,... <snipped>

I am not so sure I agree w/your argument. I mean no one forced Steve (as far as I know) to write anything. If there is a beef, it (in my opinion) should be with him. Since as you say, it wasn't a big pay-day for Steve. It's not like he was blinded by the money or anything. Up to today I had nothing but praise for Steve. I agree w/all the good things that have been said about him. I can't help but think what his response would be if someone was so specific w/one of his spots. My guess is he would be pissed. Maybe not. Maybe he has so many spots that losing 1-2 is no big deal to him.

Maybe that gets to the root of the problem, or his decision. Perhaps he felt he was outing a few well known spots, no big deal. In his arsenal, they were trivial. To others, just getting started, they were our "Big Guns"

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by JFigliuolo

I am not so sure I agree w/your argument. I mean no one forced Steve (as far as I know) to write anything. If there is a beef, it (in my opinion) should be with him. Since as you say, it wasn't a big pay-day for Steve. It's not like he was blinded by the money or anything. Up to today I had nothing but praise for Steve. I agree w/all the good things that have been said about him. I can't help but think what his response would be if someone was so specific w/one of his spots. Probably not as bad as ours as he has collected so many.

Maybe that gets to the root of the problem, or his decision. Perhaps he felt he was outing a few well known spots, no big deal. In his arsenal, they were trivial. To others, just getting started, they were our "Big Guns"

No one forced Steve to write it and he's not a starving writer, but he probably thought he was doing a good thing, or at least not realizing how bad it would be. I have not read it yet but I am preparing myself to be pissed at it (I'm sure the article will be great but that's the point - too good). And yes, I think Steve weas wrong in writing it if it is as detailed as some are suggesting. So, Steve should get some beef but I think people need to realize he may have effed up but he likely was not being malicious about it. What I am really saying is that we, as the angling community, need to be more responsible with access, and the commercial ordganizations that profit from the angling community - ESPECIALLY THE MEDIA - must be more responsible with the impact that results when they make a profit. So how much is access worth? What $200 an article?

[Flaptail]

I write for On the Water. I try to keep the specifics of "Spots" ( I hate that juvenile terminology) I prefer locations to an absolute minimum, Anyone can pick up the paper and read on Thursday evening or Friday evening here on Cape what is going on where. All the local tackle shops are disgorging info in large doses. The two major Cape papers that I read, the Times and the Enterprise have weekely report sections that spew the same. The difficult task in writing is where to draw the line. New writers, and I was the same ten years ago when I started, sometimes need direction from Editors as to what may be appropriate and what not may be. The editor gives his or her advice and the writer is usually free to take the counsel as given and either retract certain items or leave them in. In the case of the article in question it is very apparent to me that, in fact, if there was no spots specifically mentioned, there would be no article. The author in question had to have made a conscious decision to go ahead and keep the article as was written and if he was as in tune to the general consensus of the local fishing fraternity, he had to have known the eventual outcome. The editors have always made me aware of the risk and benefits of pieces I have submitted for publication. I have to mention a few locations in my monthly piece but as for the specifics, that's where I leave the readers to thier own investigative skills.
I like to stress technique rather than locations. If your technique is up to snuff the location stuff will fall into place with a simple recon of the beach before you at the time. I don't write for the money, God knows it ain't much and the accountant at tax time keeps telling me that it ain't worth the extra cost for him to complete my returns with it included. I don't do it to beat my chest either. When I enter a tackle shop I usally keep my mouth shut, ears open and a low profile ( tough at 6"6'). I come into buy and leave. I don't like being pumped for info, followed or badgered for invites to join me fishing I fish because I love to, it's that simple and write because I feel I can help people as people have helped me and others have helped them before my time. A modicum of sharing is healthy, disgorging all for the sake of seeing your name is not. KNow one remembers much of the good anymore but the bad, ah, that is never far from wagging tongues.

[bassmaster]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

I write for On the Water. I follow Bassmaster cause He is my god: