Hey Zeno

[NIB]

I haven't got the mag yet.But like I said ilike Zeno writing.He goes beyond the typical where,what how too's.There's more to fishin then havin something on the end of ur line.sure the internet is this great palce for our world of instant gratifaction.i'll take a well written book or article anytime.its too bad u chose to slam the article.but thats ur choice.montauk ain't for everyone.it's HARD fishin.there's a adrenlaine rush to it that is tough to beat.Thats good.Stay in NE. NY are not nice anyways.

[RIJIMMY]

Its not too bad,. I just didnt like it. I'll fish Montauk, but his articel will have nothing to do with it. Perhaps its not fair to be critcial without being more specific.
Here what I would have like to have seen.

- The typical "fall" season for Mntk, for example , fsih migrate in Sept and stay until Dec. Some basic idea of when the fishing picks up and when it ends.
- The lure talk was insulting, he says that Mntk regulars would never throw a needlefish becasue of the rocky condicitons....HUH? I throw heavy neeldefish at some of the most rocky places in RI, needlefish are top water lures, even when retrieved slowly. Then later in the article he mnetions that thee do throw needles when the sand eels move in, but reccomends a slow sinker.
Then he says to throw buck tail jigs...huh? Inconsistent concepts

- could have added more history about the place

I am not trying to be a jerk, I really did not like his style, seemed lke an 8th grade book report. Didnt win me over.

[PNG]

Saw the article but didnt read, just breezed it. I was busy scouring the rest of the mag to see any explanation or apology for last months issue. Nothing. Editorial comment, nope. Guess it didnt happen

[Karl F]

Originally Posted by PNG

Saw the article but didnt read, just breezed it. I was busy scouring the rest of the mag to see any explanation or apology for last months issue. Nothing. Editorial comment, nope. Guess it didnt happen

I did the same, and no, zip, zero, nothing...and from what I have heard in the local B&T's lately, I doubt we will see what we were looking for PNG... there is a push on for more info, and perhaps another venue to bring it to the fore.....time will tell.

I liked the way the M article was done. Pictures of places I'd seen before, no maps and circles and arrows, can live with that. Be interesting to see input from NY guys on the piece.

[spence]

Aside from the emails I'm sure they received about the spot burn element of the piece...I'd hope there were some complaining they didn't get the “guaranteed fishing” as promised in the lead!

-spence

[Joe]

I did not read Zeno's story. Flap does a good job of writing and Manzi's is chock-a-block full of factoids. I think David Pickering does a very, very good job of how-to, Frank D can still get me "horsed-up -to-fish." But I think we really need to be looking at the big picture before we set our expectations.

Outdoor writing can occasionally be high art - but it's not usually of much merit. Where-to and how-to constitute the majority of the stories and they are simplistic and topical. Given the format, there is not much room for anything else. Set the mood in the first paragraph, wrap up the details in the last - in the middle, it's a series of facts and anecdotes - that's it. Send it in, and cross your fingers in the hope that the public does not roast you in appreciation. (A wise writer would scratch doing any future where-to if he wants to keep the air in his tires.)

Often times you will get a better story out of the occasional writer as opposed to the part-time writer because a person who dabbles in writing has fresher ideas and is much more likely to spend more time on piece than a person who does 30 articles a year. Many prolific part-time writers approach any given topic this way: "Ok. This story, it pays $100. If I can't do it in under two hours and if I can't pull the images from stock - it's not worth doing." That's why so much stuff appears formulaic - because its only worth doing if it is.

It's naive to expect that all traditional journalistic standards (i.e. a writer must be impartial, a writer should have no conflict of interest, etc) should apply to outdoor writers. They never have and I doubt they ever will. Outside of a magazine's staffers, virtually no one is writing full-time because you can't make a living doing it. In other discusions I've heard people mention Zane Grey and Ernest Hemingway - as if we should expect greatness from small publications with even smaller budgets. Get real. Like all small-market trade and hobby magazines, content for outdoor magazines is provided by a mix of practicing hobbyists and industry professionals - not literary giants. In the outdoor industry, these people are often guides, outfitters, charter captians and wildlife managers.

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by Karl F

I did the same, and no, zip, zero, nothing...and from what I have heard in the local B&T's lately, I doubt we will see what we were looking for PNG... there is a push on for more info, and perhaps another venue to bring it to the fore.....time will tell.

I liked the way the M article was done. Pictures of places I'd seen before, no maps and circles and arrows, can live with that. Be interesting to see input from NY guys on the piece.

Why do you expect an apology, explanation or otherwise? Do you think that the magazine owes you one? Do you really believe that the editorial/management/publishing staff truly beleives they owe one to you or anyone else. This really amazes me. The guy wrote the article. The responsibility rests squarely with the writer to make the call if he personally is going over some imaginary line drawn on the sand or the rocks in this case by a bunch of insecure, paranoid fishermen who have an overinflated view of reality. The fact is and remains that the vast majority of the publications readers will never, nor do they comprehend the magnitude ( in your general opinions) of what was writen or the implications it could have. The mag staff is not bound nor should they be in dictating limits of what a writer puts in or leaves out of his work. HIS WORK, get it? If they started to do that the magazine would no longer be of any value or interest to anyone but the inane unknowing public, it would be an over-edited collection of bland pages between two covers. Try working OTW' s booth at a show and listen to the comments about what should be in the mag. Everyone has an opinion.

If you fish the same spots all the time, if you never ever do anything else but stick to the same routine of start at point x and end at beach y your in a serious rut and if you believe your secret spot is yours and yours alone and no one has ever fsihed there before you and when your gone no one will ever stumble upon that spot again your terribly misguided. I see it on the outer cape all the time. All the local heroes get pissed when someone shows up on thier bar or thier point. Do you own that spot? Do you alone have legal rights to be there? Pressure will wane and rise on areas despite articles or whatever.
One only has to lurk on these boards to pick up enough intel to figure out general locations and once on those grounds zero in on the finer points of the area. Grow up all of you. You all say too mauch at one time or another. The local papers say it every Friday in season. The tackle shops hoping to increase business tell just enough. An apology? No way, none given and none deserved. Take it up with the author of the piece and stop this bull%$%$%$%$ once and for all.

[RIJIMMY]

Flap. I thought someone said that there would be a response by the OTW editors in the next issue.
Dont shoot me, I'm just saying I know I read that out here from someone.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Flap. I thought someone said that there would be a response by the OTW editors in the next issue.
Dont shoot me, I'm just saying I know I read that out here from someone.

I thought the same thing was written as well Flap?

[PNG]

Why do you expect an apology, explanation or otherwise?

I expected one because you said there would be one coming in the Nov issue. I was honestly curious to read their stand, that is all. That simple.

I did read the Zeno article and enjoyed it, gave me a tingle even.

I do not agree with the no needle yes needle part becuase he clearly adds a disclaimer.

[Karl F]

Why?
Well, oh mature one, this, from another thread regarding this well worn subject...

Originally Posted by Flaptail

Watch for the editorial in November. I have a feeling this will all be addressed in that format, where each and every subscriber, consumer and casual reader at the dentist's office can evalute the magazines response. Then again, it goes back to the authors responsibility, IMHO,to think of circumstances that my likely develop if he does submit the piece for publication. The guys at the mag are all great guys and my friends. Are they die hard surfcasters, offshore fishermen or rabid, tongue dragging red-eyed Striper men. No. They love to fish, and they had an opportunity to open up a venue so that nutz like myself and others could share with the other nutz what when and how. Where exactly is verboten. Of course there has always been and there will always be the unwriiten code among the Striper Brethren against revealing the most secret details. Myself I have been threatened with bodily harm, threatening notes,damage to my vehicle and slander and lost friendships. I don't believe that I give away the farm as the article in question did. I have people comment on giving too much info in how and why even when I intentionally leave out the where. Like the late great Al Rienfelder once said when asked, after telling in detail the how and why, the where question, "even the CIA doesn't have that kind of information". I live that way and write that way. I might mention Truro or Wellfleet or be a little more specific by stating Balston or some such beach but if you are a really educated surfcaster you know Balston is one., a big place and two., bass usually crowd into the smallest holes at only certain points in the tide. I fished last night from 9 to midnight, I caaght quite a few fish on Needles, where? Don't ask I won't tell you.

I don't post on S-S.COM anymore because Frank disses the magazine because thery would not entertain anymore of his oft time re-hashed adventures and laurel sitting. He of all people is throwing jibes in threads like "Googan Writers" and NEBE's thread on the aforementioned article. He's retired, he can make money off of it and he does. Well that's okay but don't throw stones. Does anyone here remember when "Striper Hotspots" first printing came out that some spots were named incorrectly? Also a lot of these spots were never even fished by Daignault. Of all the people to comment he has a lot of nerve. Read twenty years on the Cape and you will be told everything you need to know about when, where and how to fish the backbeach. All while he bemoans the fact you cannot trust people to keep thier mouths shut. But it was over for him so why not tell all and make a little cake on the side from it. Trouble is it wasn't and still isn't over for a lot of guys. The New Yorkers he fished with still come to P-Town for the most part, at least those who are still alive. He actively bashes people who fish from boats yet his mentor and one of the most prolific writers in the Striper game, Frank Woolner, knew and told anyone that would listen that even though he thought surfcasting was the most enjoyable and rewarding way to catch stripers a really good bassman had to be proficient in all of the arts. Trolling, jigging, live bait, fly fishing in order to be considered really good in the Striper world. He told me that to my face when I was a teenager and it is the way I live my striper life. Too many double standards these days. Dammed if you do damned if you don't. Now, enough of this crap and let's get on with the important stuff. What was done is done and I am sure a lesson was learned. End of story. Next!

I would have shortened it, but did not want to be accused of editing "your" comment.

But honest to god, that is the only reason, why I thought there might be something there, other than that, I know that magazines and writers, will sell us down the river................................

I will hush my juvenile mouth now, and be done with this... and let you mature folk handle this, while I grow up

Flapper... sometimes I wonder 'bout ya