Epoxy headache

[ProfessorM]

FF asked to see so here it is. I am using spray, rustoleum. The cloudy whiteish marks are caused from me rubbing my fingernail on the epoxy. After they appear I can just peel the stuff off. Not all have this problem though,I hope.


How long do you wait to top coat or for that matter in between all your different coats? What do you use to scuff the surface, scotchbrite or sandpaper. Would using acrylics eliminate some of these problems or is it more me than the paints I am using? So much to learn I am getting a headache.

[ThrowingTimber]

Give it more time to dry before you put on your finish. You may be trapping in gasses that havent fully flashed off of the paint.

[UserRemoved1]

The bottom pic looks like the paint is shiny under the epoxy. Too smooth. Maybe try some real fine Scotchbrite pads to give the epoxy something to grip to.

[The Dad Fisherman]

I usually give everything a day to dry...1 day for the primer...one day for the paint....one day for the scuffcoat....then I apply the epoxy.


I also have been using 000 steel Wool to scuff up before the Epoxy then wiping with just isopropyl.

[ProfessorM]

Do you use crystal clear before scuff or just scuff the paint?

[The Dad Fisherman]

A clear Scuff coat....I've been using E-Tex in a spraycan....I'm sure there is something better that these guys use....I'm still a rookie myself But its been working for me

[Canalman]

Paul,

a few things I know of may cause that problem and the fact that you are using rattle cans narrows it down even more. I'd say you are either...

-Laying your paint on too thick. most paints dry from the substrate out to the surface. Spray paints are designed to dry quickly so, if the paint is really layed on there the surface will dry while the paint closer to the plug will remain soft and full of solvents. As the solvents make their way out they will force the epoxy to let go.

-Not allowing enough time between coats of paint. For the same reasons listed above, if paint is not given ample time to dry before being recoated it will hold its solvents and lift the clear.

-Scuffing may also help as Scott suggested, but I don;t believe scuffing alone will solve that problem. Usually adhesion problems will not become apparent right away.

It sounds like solvents are trapped and affecting the cure of the epoxy.

Hope this helps... use light coats and follow lable directions for dry time, recoat time and application.

[Tagger]

about 3 days to a week for sealer..val oil/turp,,,24hrs. between all coats no matter what the can says.. by coats i'm talking primer,paint,scratch coat,,if your doing a multy step paint job say spray can 24 hrs. then another coat scales ,,accents.. another 24 hrs.. haste makes waste

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by Professor Moriarty

Do you use crystal clear before scuff or just scuff the paint?

rust-toleum painters touch clear..

[UserRemoved1]

Dave is right, and one of the things that I thought of when I seen those pics was solvent flashing off. Every time you spray a layer you actually re-solvenate/attack the layers below if everything is compatible. If you trap solvents like that then you will have problems later on. This was one of the things I had a problem with a few years ago and ended up hiring a coatings consultant to review my processes and make suggestions of a better way to do it. My particular problem was coming from the sealer/primer stage.
Two ways to paint...wet on wet is best for some stuff, or let each layer dry and then another coat. You'd be surprised how long it takes solvent or latex paint to dry with multiple coats. Either way you have to let it dry alot before the topcoat.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Tagger

rust-toleum painters touch clear..

Eddie, you still using Bin primer.

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Eddie, you still using Bin primer.

I never ever used bin primer,,, i mean ever never,,, Zinsser primer sealer stain killer bond coat .. Its like the only thing I never changed ,, I mean never ever... u got me mixed up with other eddie,, u old sock ...

Frank Zapper is the best musician that ever walked gods green earth !!!!

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Tagger

I never ever used bin primer,,, i mean ever never,,, Zinsser primer sealer stain killer bond coat .. Its like the only thing I never changed ,, I mean never ever... u got me mixed up with other eddie,, u old sock ... !!!!

Here we go again, Zinsser, white cap, black cap, whatever cap. Kick me if i'm wrong, my primer is" Zinsser,red can, white cap, Bin, shellac-base Primer Sealer stain killer spray". The only other sealer they make is their bulls eye products. KIll me if i'm wrong and send me a pic of ya on the drums in your band if i'm right.

[Tagger]

NO not red can ,,,, white and gold can ... geeez dog

[Tagger]

this stuff

[Backbeach Jake]

I can read your 'puter but not your can,Tagger. Professor, your problem looks like solvent pop. Let your primer dry a day and your color dry 2or3 days. I use no scratch-coat. My colors dry flat and that is the "bite" for the clear.

[thefishingfreak]

try scuff sanding before you clear. you can use 1000 down to 400 grit paper with a solid color like that no problem the clear will hide the sand scratch marks.
red scuff pads or gold too..... i can mail you some if you want?


take one of those and peel all the clear off and scuff it up a little bit.even with the green side of the kitchen scrubby sponge,,, then re-clear it with the same stuff. that will tell you if it's "sanding between color and clear" thats doing that. if it peels off on you again there's something wrong with the combination. fish eye eliminator in the purple?

i'd say if it was solvent pop? it would force bubbles into the top-coat but it wouldn't peel like that. if they were a perfect match together you should be able to spray it purple then go right to clear within minutes and it should be fine.

[capesams]

was that metalic paint from rust-o-leum? if so,I've nothing that'll stick to it. gloss is tough too. flat is your best bet.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Tagger

NO not red can ,,,, white and gold can ... geeez dog

OK, i stand corrected. Should have known better,The Hahnmeister is always right.

Stillz want the pic of you on the drums.

[NIB]

Thats the same stuff i use.They have changed the formula to lower VOC's an It's not as nice..
I when I used cans i found the best way to do it was like the freak said.wet to wet.all at once.I would prime an wait 24 hrs an saND then some more prime an sand kept it up till i got where i wanted give it a few days to dry an then paint.U have ta do light coats wait a few minutes an do another light coat.Keep goin every few minutes till ya get what ya want.then in the same procedure i would add a scuff coat.I like the helsmans spar urethane but it will amber.OK on dark stuff but if i wanted a white i would use crystal clear by krylon.then u gotta wait.Sometimes a week is not enough time.I would give it the smell test if i could no longer smell the paint then it was ready.then I would wait somemore.then scuff I have used sand paper an scotch brite. u gotta be real gentle with both even 800-1000 paper will scrape to far on some corners an such.then blow it off with the thing from the compressor..Not a fan of the alchol thing gave it up yrs. ago.maybe wipe it with a damp paper towel an blow it off then no fingers on it.Oils from ur hands will repel the epoxy.I only scuff it right before i epoxy.then I am real carefull wit em.U would be surprised of the ways to contaminate the plug so's the epoxy won't behave.Then it I mix the %$%$%$%$ wrong an the epoxy comes out like poop anyways.welcome to plug buildin.looks like it didn't dry enough.

[afterhours]

paul my first thought was that your epoxy looks very thin and flakey and a serious lack of adhesion.

[ProfessorM]

Holy crap my head is spinning. I think I got the zombie woof behind my eyes, never mind. Well after reading all the informative opinions I have concluded that there are a myraid of ways to screwed up. The thing that gets me is it seems some of the plugs came out alright and some did not. I sealed Val and terp. let dry several days. I primed the plugs, Zinsser cover stain, let dry and then another coat. Maybe need to light sand in between coats. Grey scotchbrite pad before painting. I used mostly satin Rustoleum american accents paint. I try to stay away from gloss although the purple in the crap plug was a gloss. I do several colors one after another after each color drys say 10 min. inbetween colors till I get the look I want. I let that finished plug dry 24 hours maybe 2 days, all depends when I can get to it. Crystal clear enamal after that. Then wait a day or more and then the Mirror coat. I am sure I measured correctly and mixed for at least 5 min. as I have heard constantly to do. All this scuffing which I am probably not doing enough of I guess.
Should I be scuffing inbetween primer coats?
Should I be scuffing the primer before paint?
Should I be scuffing the paint before clear?
Should I be scuffing the clear before epoxy?
You are not saying let a day go by before you add each additional color to get the finished combo are you. I should be able to add all the colors within a few mins. of each other, after each color drys, to get final results right?
Maybe the temp that the plugs were in as the epoxy dried, 62, was too cold. I know that there are many different opinions to the process. Some do certain things and some don't. I guess I have to look at all the info and try to make and informed decision.
It would be great if everyone used the same process but then that would be too easy. Thanks all for the help. Paul

[NIB]

[QUOTE=Professor Moriarty]
Should I be scuffing inbetween primer coats?
Yes I use primer for 2 resons
It acts like a bonding agent for the paint
2 it is sandable so i can fill any little voids or fix any minor imperfections.sometimes I use as many as 3-4 coats of primer most often sanding most of it off.
Should I be scuffing the primer before paint?
Yes I wouldn't call it scuffing.but a light sanding of say 400 grit.freak goes multiple sandings to some 1000 grit paper for a ultra smooth finish.

Should I be scuffing the paint before clear?

No Ull just f-up the paint.I apply the clear right after the paint in the same intervals like 5-10 mins.sometimes 10 mins is too long.the paint will start to set up an thats when u'll get compatibility problems an curling. I found when u work in wet stages u have less trouble. always apply the next coat as soon as it flashes over.

Should I be scuffing the clear before epoxy?

Yes thats the reason for the clear.There's a epoxy how too on the systems three website u need a adobe to download it.very informative.basically u need a finish thats a little rough.for proper adhesion.I'll go very lightly wit a light scotch pad or some very fine 800-1000 grit paper.

You are not saying let a day go by before you add each additional color to get the finished combo are you. I should be able to add all the colors within a few mins. of each other,

Yes a few mins at most.some god awfull things can happen when u spray a day later.By working wet i can use alot of different manufacturers of the same type of spray paint.often not a good Idea when the tack up.

Looks like u didn't let things dry enough.in the end. I have sprayed primer an painted at basically the same time.
I always let em dry completely before epoxy.like 2 weeks.

[Tagger]

When you guys are talkin wet over wet your talkin createx not rattle cans right ? now I got a headache ..

[ProfessorM]

Thanks NIB. I think I am applying the paints the right way, within minutes of each other, but maybe a little too long. I will try to do a little faster. I did however wait a day or so to apply the clear. I did scuff the clear. On the plugs it seems that the paint is firmly attached to the plug but the epoxy has not attached. I know I did wait a few days after clear to epoxy but not a week. I have talked to several now and I hope the future batches will be better. I also know now that I will be doing several things differently and even trying different brands and techniques to find one that will work for me. Thanks all for the input from the people who have paid their dues and doing the dirty work. You have allowed me and hopefully others to shorten the learning curve, save some time and money with your hard earned proven experience. I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but I know how the listen. I hope I am not the only one benefiting from the banter. Paul

[Canalman]

Uh oh.. now you have to think about film build, floculation, seponification

[Backbeach Jake]

Originally Posted by Canalman

Uh oh.. now you have to think about film build, floculation, seponification

I started painting for the buzz. I also stopped because of it. big words hurt head. So much to learn... Remember putting bait on hook, put hook in water? I think we've gone nuts sometimes. In a good way, of course. Paul, after staring at your photo til my eyes watered, I think that the clear just didn't stick. Not to be a smart-arse any further but sometimes the clear and color are just incompatable. Sometimes the color dries with a slightly oily surface, or is too hard and shiny for the clear to grab. Ford, GM, and Chrysler have all spent millions to cure their clear/color adhesion problems. I seal with a 50/50 Helmsman/mineral spirit solution. Sand with 220 lightly but dull it all. Prime with BIN, sand w/ 320. Blow it off, tack it off. I use "Traditions" acrylic paints from Michaels or ACMoores.(cos it's 48cents on sale) let it dry for 2-3 days so all the water is gone and clear with E-tex. 95 percent of the times this works fine for me. I think that what failures I do have are from inadequet sealing. Water got in the wire hole and came out through the paint, my clear doesn't peel , it all peels. I hope this helps some.

[ProfessorM]

Fred in a nut shell I think you are right on the button. The epoxy did not stick. I was at Mac's today and showed him and he thinks the paint is sticking good. I probably didn't rough up the surface enough. Thanks

[ProfessorM]

You know what the real aggravating part is I let my 5 year old daughter paint some screw ups, to keep her out of my hair. She used regular acrylics from the 10 cent store and a paint brush. It is bare wood there is no primer or sealer and a ton of randomly applied paint. I had some left over epoxy from the batch that sux's and put it on for her. Well you can hit the thing with a hammer and the stuff will not chip or come off. Perfect just like you want. Figures. I think I will go to hand painting with a brush.

[Charleston]

Originally Posted by Professor Moriarty

You know what the real aggravating part is I let my 5 year old daughter paint some screw ups, to keep her out of my hair. She used regular acrylics from the 10 cent store and a paint brush. It is bare wood there is no primer or sealer and a ton of randomly applied paint. I had some left over epoxy from the batch that sux's and put it on for her. Well you can hit the thing with a hammer and the stuff will not chip or come off. Perfect just like you want. Figures. I think I will go to hand painting with a brush.

The fact that the epoxy achieved good adhesion on your daughter's plug is proof positive that your paint caused the problem! Good luck with th fix!!