America spying on terrorists without court approval - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

Raven · 12-17-2005, 10:20 PM

the unknown Nebe.....

lurch · 12-18-2005, 07:15 AM

The founding fathers would leave this country if they were living here today and are currently rolling in their graves.

We have flaws but our flaws are less than other countries and we are the best country by on this planet far!

There is a fine line on spying on people in this country. As far as I am concerned it would take just a few mins to contact a judge for a wire tap approval and that judge will (hopefully) be able to make the right decision if there is probable cause for the wire tap.

The funny thing is that the 911 commision was bitching at the govt saying that they did not do enough "information gathering" to prevent the events of 911.

I dont like the fact that the members of congress are blaming this on bush as they were the ones who passed the patriot act laws, it is not about protecting the citizens but covering the members of congress asses and how they can line their pockets.

Raven · 12-18-2005, 07:45 AM

you triggered a memory.... someting like the mixer ball wrattling around in a almost empty spray paint can..... in my mind....this quote from the movie "the fugitive " Staring tommy lee jones and harrison ford.... Tommy Lee JONES yells: "i wanna Know what he had for breakfast "

stripersnipr · 12-18-2005, 08:51 AM

Can you really win a war on terrorism by following rules the enemy scoffs at?

JohnR · 12-18-2005, 09:57 AM

There is a fine line but a concrete line on "who" is allowed to surveil "who". The CIA and the NSA are allowed to conduct surveilance (and the CIA, operations) on foreign countries. The FBI has responsibility to conduct actions within the US, and provided all done within the context of the law. The NSA will periodically assist the FBI in technical means and and provide personnel as members of a FBI operation. The FBI is a law driven organization and executes it's mission "legaly" as its members really consider themselves federal Law Enforcement Officers so they are given a mission to do, they understand the legal portion, and they execute it. The NSA people are often proffesional geeks, do what they are told, have certain legal constraints to operate in, but they are not Law Enforcement Officers or have that mentality. Certainly the field people are given a mission and told to execute it - but while aware of what they can and can't do - they are not law enforcement officers.

This has worked - properly for the most part - for decades.

I'm uncomfortable to see that changed. But if these actions were being carried out with the court that they are legally supposed to, I'd feel a lot better....

The NSA like the CIA and FBI are staffed by real American people. People that honor this country and its ideals just like those who are in the military. They are not necessarily like the people depicted in movies and books, they are not evil, bent on circumventing the law and establishing world dominance with "sharks with frickin' laser beams" but real people, real Americans. Now what happens with the data they collect and what decisions are made with that data by politicians - THAT is the scary part

Backbeach Jake · 12-18-2005, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Can you really win a war on terrorism by following rules the enemy scoffs at?

My .02 : Those rules are what makes America America. Those rules are why they hate us. Change them, throw out or suspend our Constitutional Rights, and we aren't us any more. We are something or someone else, and the bad guys win. Our written guarantees are gone and they're still here. Making us change slowly, but surely makes us go away. We win the war on terrorism by standing our ground and making THEM change to a free society. How? by persuasion and Example. The more freedom we lose, the closer we come to them. They figured it out.

stripersnipr · 12-18-2005, 10:41 AM

After fully reading the details of this issue it appears that standard probable cause rules apply to these eavesdropping situations. I would compare it to being pulled over by police and your car reeks of pot. Probable cause at that point exists and you will be "legally" searched. If you are known to converse or communicate with individuals or groups with terrorist ties probable cause will exist and wiretaps may be implemented. I'm not sure if this is infringing on our civil rights anymore than already existing standards of search and seizure.

Backbeach Jake · 12-18-2005, 11:19 AM

I read it the same way. The difference is that the Legislative Branch and the Administrative Branch left the Judicial Branch out. It's legal IF you go to the Court and tell them. Otherwise it's not legal. This is how we protect ourselves from, well, ourselves. out of sight out of mind? Yes, of course, that's the master plan.

lurch · 12-18-2005, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven

you triggered a memory.... someting like the mixer ball wrattling around in a almost empty spray paint can..... in my mind....this quote from the movie "the fugitive " Staring tommy lee jones and harrison ford.... Tommy Lee JONES yells: "i wanna Know what he had for breakfast "

I fell asleep on the living room floor last night waking up with a stiff neck and achy back so I was a little grumpy when I woke up.