OTW "Striper Cup Tourney" Format is Irresponsible to the Fishery

[Slipknot]

OK Saltheart, I guess you've convinced me to sign up as an individual then. That way none ,if any, of the fish I weigh in will go to that club poundage most people are complaining about. I can't see myself keeping more than the usual amount of fish this year anyway. I'm with bigfish did I just say that?

Cranium, nope, you didn't miss anything, that's how it's written.

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by Krispy

Cumulative year-long poundage. Whichever club kills the most fish wins.
DZ made a great suggestion in having clubs only submit the top 7 or 5 or 3 fish, that way anything not meeting the mark doesnt need to kill it.
I would really like to fish this tournament, but have reservations with the club fish kill, and the early ending time frame
Actually, re-reading the rules, I'll probly just enter as an individual. I interested in seeing what others "sharpies" are actually catching in the surf

In the schaefer clubs were allowed to enter only the ten top fish caught for each eligible species ( Bass, Bluefish, Cod and Weakfish, which were on the list, then off, then on again) per month. Therefore, the fish had to be big in order to garner the points and surf fish were worth two points as opposed to boat fish at one point. 90% of the Schaefer weigh stations were fish markets. As most back then sold thier catch. Not only "commercial" rod and reelers but Mom and Pop and the uncle Bob and whoever caught fish. A very small majority didn't.

I write for OTW, I am not in thier employ and had no input nor would I try to force my views upon them. I know how I will fish. I will not be entering every over 34 inch fish I catch. If I happen to take a big one, ie way over 30 lbs, it's in. If I don't, no biggie. I catch many fish each year, a reasonable guess would be over a thousand or more, it ain't hard to catch a hundred in a day in some of the places I and some friends fish, just ask Stiff tip.

In converstion with Bob Pond many years ago at the Worcester Show and several occasions after that, I asked him what he thought was the biggest threat to bass and he answered "Acid rain, chemical run-off of fertilizers in Chesapeake, pollution in the Hudson". He went on to explain how his number one concern, acid rain, was not allowing the fertilized eggs to develop. That was the basic premise of his Stripers Unlimited work. In that he was ahead of his time and finally like the return of the Osprey to the Chesapeake watershed, the bass rebounded also, due to the reduction of acid rain and chemical run-off. He never mentioned tournaments to me and I spoke with him at length many many times. One has only to research the year with low acid rain occurences in April in the Chesapeake and it's correlation to high YOY indexes to see the link.

Mr. Saltheart, your reference to Bob Pond is based on conjecture and not fact and he himself would tell you that for Bob Pond is an honest man who plainly stated fact and did not bend the facts as they came to light to further his purpose. He was right on his theory, and for that we shall always be grateful.

[Flaptail]

Oh yeah, I forgot. The fecundity of the Striped Bass is almost unparrelled in the icthyological world. Given the right conditions the bass could expect indices of recruitment of it's stocks that dwarf other species. It is a known fact that although a frty pound cow may carry millions of eggs, the older she gets the viability of those same eggs is questionable as opposed to younger and smaller female bass in the mid teen weight classes whose eggs, though less in volume are much more viable and less subject to non-developement.

[nightfighter]

First time weighing in on this thread. So here goes;

1. I will enter and fish for S-B, if it enters as a club.

2. I will weigh in fish ONLY if they meet the 30, 40, 50 lb. slots, qualifying for pins, and maybe weekly/monthly prize. If I should be so lucky to catch and weigh in a fish in a particular slot, I do not intend to weigh another for that slot, but will rather target another, as yet unattained slot.

3. I will go to the festival in the hope that I can have a shot at a prize, and more importantly, see all you jamokes.

I disagree with a number of things stated in this thread so far. Among them, the high mortality rate of released fish (what the hell are they doing to them????) and the statement that someone without 10 to 15 years of this addiction can't grasp thaeoverall big picture. Forums like this, books, and insights from folks like Capesams and Flap can give great insight into the history, for those who care to read and think. (hell I've learned a great deal from your musings, Steve)

Have I gotten snobby over striper fishing? Hell yes. We who are concerned over a 'Kill' should be happy that the great majority of the yacht club set and surf/boat fishermen couldn't put 2 keepers in their boat on a weekly basis if their life depended on it. And how many googans do you go by on an average outing???? I don't want to be seen as a fishing snob, nor as being unaware of the conservation issues we have seen in the past. It's a fishing thing.......

[Saltheart]

Don't put words in my mouth Flaptail. I don't appreciate it any more than you did when someone questioned your motives for your comments here.

I simply said ...."Bob Pond had a vision , not a magic wand". The fact that he had a vision is fact not conjecture and is based on many times I talked with him at his Atom factory which is about 10 minutes from my house. He had a vision and acted on it and did good for the fishery despite fighting an uphill battle.

Reread what I said and if there's anything there you don't like , lets discuss it but don't put words in my mouth.

[Krispy]

In the schaefer clubs were allowed to enter only the ten top fish caught for each eligible species ( Bass, Bluefish, Cod and Weakfish, which were on the list, then off, then on again) per month. Therefore, the fish had to be big in order to garner the points and surf fish were worth two points as opposed to boat fish at one point.

Why didnt OTW follow that format, makes more sense.
Since there arent other species, they should seperate boat and surf into 2 fields.
I look forward to grabbing some pins

[BigFish]

Krispy....that is exactly what I am trying to say....you should go ahead and fish the tourney, ignore the club poundage portion of the tourney and just weigh your best fish should the fish merit keeping in your view! Thats all I am doing....not entering as a club member because I do not like the "kill for points" portion of the rules. If I am blessed with a 30, 40, 50 or even a 60 pound fish (like that might happen ) I will weigh it in accordingly.

[Krispy]

Worlds are colliding, I agree w/ BigFish, Flaptail and Saltheart in the same thread

[Mr. Sandman]

The boat guys have this locked up.. I don't think you realize how many big fish these guys take ***per day***. tons of 20's lots of 30#ers a few 40's and some of the hotshots take a 50+ once or so each season. A surf fish winning this thing is a long shot. And they DO cull out smaller fish, few take a fish less then 20# to the market. So they will weigh in the fish, then take it to market .

Removing myself from this thread, I am getting too much email about it.

[DZ]

I think many of you lost focus about what this thread was discussing, which isn’t hard because so many views have been expressed.

The initial question actually started on another thread – Should S-B.com field a team to compete for the new “Striper Cup”?

Most anglers would tend to agree that a tournament with prizes for individuals in various categories is not really anything to be concerned about. Many exist already.

The point of contention with the new Striper Cup is the point system for the club competition that has “no limit” on how many fish a club can enter.

Here is the statement from the OTW website:

(The members of the club with the most points tallied throughout the season will take the “Striper Cup” to display in their clubhouse for the year.)


To give you an example on how this contest might be run - read the following scenario:


Press Release 2006

Striper Cup Results

_________ Fishing Club Claims Striper Cup Bragging Rights

The_______ Club takes first place in the first annual Striper Cup with a total of 3653 points (awarded 1 point per pound). Minimum weight for entry was 15 pounds. 210 club members entered 189 striped bass over the course of the 20 week season. Of the 189 entered only 4 won awards in the ______Club’s own year long contest.

Club President -------- was proud of his members. “We made a big push for the trophy in August and September” he said. “Our members were encouraged to weigh-in all the eligible bass they could and they came through” - “they weren’t the biggest bass but we had enough weight to beat everyone else” he continued. “Now we can say we’re the best, at least for this year”.



So here’s the question each one of you should ask of yourself and your club:

Do you/we want to support a tournament like that?

I’m only one voice in my own club, but as President of it I would recommend “No” if it came up. But my club members might not see it the same way – in that case we would vote on it. But I’m fairly certain that a club like ours would not be willing to support the Striper Cup unless it changed its rules on club competition.

DZ

[mooncusser]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

...It is a known fact that although a frty pound cow may carry millions of eggs, the older she gets the viability of those same eggs is questionable as opposed to younger and smaller female bass in the mid teen weight classes whose eggs, though less in volume are much more viable and less subject to non-developement.

That's old mis-information, not a "known fact". While it's true a bass may have less-viable eggs by the time it reaches the end cycle of its life (we're talking 65 or 70+ pounds), recent studies have showed a 40-pound bass has both several times more eggs (is more fecund) and more viable eggs when compared to a 20-pound bass.

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by mooncusser

That's old mis-information, not a "known fact". While it's true a bass may have less-viable eggs by the time it reaches the end cycle of its life (we're talking 65 or 70+ pounds), recent studies have showed a 40-pound bass has both several times more eggs (is more fecund) and more viable eggs when compared to a 20-pound bass.

I would love to see that info, can you give me the link?

Saltheart, by invoking the name of Mr. Pond you invariably lead anyone to believe that it can be reaonably inferred that he would have supported your view on this issue.

Now, that said, do you or anyone else here oppossed to the tournament fish the Martha's Vineyard Derby? It's one 28 or better inch bass a day, right? One bass for each contestant for the 30 days of the derby, if fishing was good. Now the OTW Tourney goes 5 months with two fish a day over 34. Hmmm.....

[janiejones]

Originally Posted by Redsoxticket

There can be a 800 telephone number, for example
(1-800-KILL-FISH )

I like that.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

Now, that said, do you or anyone else here oppossed to the tournament fish the Martha's Vineyard Derby? It's one 28 or better inch bass a day, right? One bass for each contestant for the 30 days of the derby, if fishing was good. Now the OTW Tourney goes 5 months with two fish a day over 34. Hmmm.....

The Derby does not have a system that rewards aggregate weight. Sure, there is the Grand Slam that allows for aggreagate weight of your biggest fish in each of 4 categories but that is about it. On the leader board the biggest fish is the biggest fish - depending on division. Granted, some people weigh in 8# albies just to get a picture taken in front of the Derby Sign and I'm sure more than a few do so with a 32" bass to get "On the Board". Personally, I wouldn't do that and a lot of people don't. I don't enter the Tourney to get a daily but on the odd chance that pure luck puts me in the right place at the right time so that with luck and any sense of skill I may have gained over the years would let me land a fish that can place or win the thing.

Two different things in my opinion.

Other tourneys, like the MS Tourney (Formerly MDA ) for example, only factor in the top 3 fish of each species for each club and the duration is only one weekend.

I'll be honest, I do like the idea of this tourney but I think it needs to have it's rules tighten up a bit.

[LeCounts1099]

Twice now DZ has completely nailed this thing on the head!

Any Bass contest that emphasizes poundage over time... & long- range kills/ weigh- insto "win" is ludicrous & laughable.you want to have a top 3 biggest fish of the Tourney/ year, fine! Those fish are almost always going to be kept regardless... the CONTEST is not encouraging & creating their demise!

Anyone here like to brag about numbers of Bass you catch over time... or the biggest ones? Anyone here even target #'s over size? (Serious guys don't obviously)

You want to "beat" the other Clubs to a "win" by dragging in more poundage all year long-- as many 12 & 20 lbers as you can carry?? So you can hoist a "Trophy?" Really??

I enter no Bass contest nor Tournaments ever-- I fish for myself & own goals completely, allowing me to be 99% C & R-- but I'd not be against one that emphasized size / best few fish win per contest/ year... vs. #'s & poundage kept! Either way like DZ I'd prefer someone running the Contest to benefit the Striper-- not Corporate profit: all proceeds to go toward anti- Reduction / pro- Pogy lobbying, for instance?

[janiejones]

I agree with LeCounts. We should fish together sometime. :

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

I am still planning on coming down to fish with you and see the studio.

you are welcome down here anytime..

[Backbeach Jake]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Steve - I respect your opinion even when I don't agree with it. How's that ?

I just think this tourney could be more conservation minded than it is as it stands now. If this year's rules are cast in concrete then perhaps they could have been discussed prior in a more open format (I can't see any reason why they would not have been discussed before and I believe OTW took it seriously when they did).

If S-B fields a team, do we impose our own little extra limit? Be it a minimum size? Or lmiting fish weighed in over the course of the tourney? Will that put a disadvantage on our people as they enter?

Thanks,

John

Suppose we took our version of the " High Road"( if we could manage to agree on where THAT was before the tournament was over) and actually won something? Say we don't go for poundage but the one really good fish of a week or month? I have to admit that I hadn't read the rules before I agreed to (Asked to?) fish for S-B. The thought of killing 2 34 or better fish a week for points just sticks in my craw tho. I'll fish to fill the freezer, always have. Never have fished for points before, that makes things real complicated...

[Clammer]

Krispy //
you stated that you want to how the other surf sharpies will be doing ///

whatever it takes // you,ll never know where or how the fish was caught [if] it was caught /////


Steve /I guess there where different times in the S/C //I don,t remember cOd or Squet // when I was in it =it was bass & BLUES /boat & shore // 5# for Blues 15# for bass -- 10 fish each division --came to 40 fish a month // that were culled as the month went along // also [WHO knows what fish were boat or shore

[Saltheart]

Flap ,I don't want to highjack what has turned into a most excellent discussion and I don't know about ...Invariably leading people or ....what they might reasonably infer or ...what someone might have supported.

I can tell you three things that I know for sure Bob Pond was concerned about

he was definitely concerned about the run off of fertilizer into the Chesapeake Bay system and in particular that that run off extended way up into Cental Pennsylvania and Lancaster County where he could make little headway in convincing people concerned about their religion and culture that they should reduce their potential crop sizes by using less ferilizer to save some fish with stripes.

He was also concerned with possibly relocating fish to try to establish spawning areas in other places besides the Chesepeake bay and Hudson River ( I believe he actually transported fish to the CT river but I'm a little fuzzy on that memory)

He also was in favor of Catch and Release as evidenced by the fact that he would always let me know that his people would be glad to rig my poppers with single tail hooks instead of the standard trebles (if I wanted) to make it easier to practice Catch and Release .

These are facts from which people can invariably be lead or reasonably infer whayever they want.

[nightfighter]

OK. How does this strike your collective chords?

If then we as a group do not support the aggregate poundage award, we do not fish as a club member, but enter as individuals only. That in effect would be our way of boycotting the club award for most aggregate points ie. pounds. This effectively would mean no S-B club entry, which would be OK by me, after hearing all your thoughts here.

[Saltheart]

According to a letter from Chris Megan , OTW , posted elsewhere , OTW is trying to come up with a solution to the concerns raised about their tourney and the conservation issues. Good for them for listening and responding positively. Lets hope it all gets worked out to everyones satisfaction.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

According to a letter from Chris Megan , OTW , posted elsewhere , OTW is trying to come up with a solution to the concerns raised about their tourney and the conservation issues. Good for them for listening and responding positively. Lets hope it all gets worked out to everyones satisfaction.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Granted, some people weigh in 8# albies just to get a picture taken in front of the Derby Sign and I'm sure more than a few do so with a 32" bass to get "On the Board". Personally, I wouldn't do that and a lot of people don't.

John--there are a number of people who weigh in 32" bass to have a shot at the daily "Mystery Prize". They'd do the same with small albies if they could. Personally, I stopped fishing for albies because it's very difficult to release one alive, and they're inedible--the fillet program won't even take them. Most of the ones caught during the Derby wind up as lobster bait.

[Cranium]

This is an email posted on another site. It is a response sent by Meghan to one of their members.

Folks,

I very much appreciate you feedback regarding concerns over fish counts
and how they relate to the Striper Cup Tournament. I especially admire
those who can respond with a level head in the hopes that some positive
change can follow. I will and do answer all emails that make sense and
don't tell me how to run OTW, but instead communicate, insightfully, how
OTW may need to address certain issues and can help with issues facing
all fishermen today.

With that said, I am looking at the possibility of tweaking the
tournament without changing the period of time. For those of you who
use words like "slaughter", "game fish", or "fish kill" to describe what
OTW is trying to achieve with the Striper Cup, I imagine nothing short
of canceling the tournament will suffice, that's not happening.

Any tweaking to the tournament will be updated on our web-site by week's
end. I ask you all to keep an open mind, as many of you already have,
and be apart of the process as OTW works through the growing pains of
reviving the once great, Schaefer Tournament, while keeping a watchful
eye on the conservation issues of today.

To that end, state biologists from CT to MA have studied this more than
many of us and have determined that two fish a day at 28" can be
harvested throughout the entire season without harming the year
classes. I don't necessarily agree with that assessment and would love
to see that number be reduced to one fish per day, which the bass stocks
can and do sustain. It is the very reason we limited the Striper Cup
catch to two fish PER WEEK or less than 15% of what the state will allow
any recreational angler during the course of a week. For those of you
not familiar with the old Schaefer Tournament, for most of the years, a
legal fish was 16" and you could take as many fish as you wanted.
Clearly, we veered from the path of the old tournament by greatly
reducing the fish that can be weighed. It may need to be further
tweaked, but blanket accusations and generalizations do nothing to
further any of your collective issues with OTW. Consider for a moment
that possibly, just possibly, the management program was so successful
that today striped bass are literally starving to death with limited
bait fish to sustain the strong stocks. I'm sure many of you have
caught 42" and 44" fish that weigh 23-25 lbs? Just 10 years ago that
was nearly a 30 + lb fish. That concerns me just as much and it is
something we at OTW look at very closely. Yes, commercial fishing has
taken it's toll on bait fish, but that is not the entire story regarding
the dangerously low bait fish counts.

Finally, consider this; I am lucky enough to work in the industry that
allows me to talk, write, speak, you name it, about fishing. My
livelihood is derived from the fact that we in New England have such a
vast and diverse fishery. If I am not a good steward of our fishery,
not only have I lost my passion, I've lost the best job I ever had.
Give me a little credit guys and let's work together. I firmly believe
there is plenty of room to run a tournament that will not adversely
impact the stocks..

Sincerely,

Chris Megan
Publisher
On The Water

[Big Dave]

Mike
I have to admit I mirror your thoughts about fishing in your above post. Could not have said it any better if I type it myself. I too have never considered the SB to be something special. It’s always just been another fish to catch and I too enjoy them as much as the next guy, but I also have no problems keeping my limit when I fish. Fishing is about eating and my family and I certainly enjoy each and every type fillet that makes it to the table. Be it ground fish or game.

Karl
I certainly understand your comments about the accuracy of data that’s collected. I can’t comment on what people tell surveyors, what I can comment on, within the reports equations are correction factors to bring error within the data into a usable calculation. Is it 100% accurate? No. Is it reasonable? Yes. It’s science, and the type it is ends up being a very well calculated guesstimate. And a lot of decision makers heavily rely on it. If you please, I am in no way trying to defend it, or to convince anybody to its validity; I personally give it its due credit.

There has been a ton of great points brought up in this discussion, especially about other derby’s, one of which came to my mind, (not sure if it was mentioned) was the Shark Tournament on the Vineyard. Pretty useless fish kill in the grand scheme of things, yet not many jumping up and down about putting an end to that one. People’s passion about the striped ones is plainly evident. At times a bit over stated maybe but none the less, there is a very vocal group of bass fishermen that seem to sing the loudest all the time. And from what I have seen it’s always the favorable and politically correct C+R guys.
I have been trying my best to understand and maybe side with the majority on the board about the aggregate catch numbers. I just can’t. This may be a very unpopular statement I just don’t believe that this derby harms the bass stocks, and the keeping of fish that are caught doesn’t really bother me either. So long as the fish do not go to waste. I guess amongst reasonable men there is always room for debate. Big Dave

[spence]

Originally Posted by Cranium

To that end, state biologists from CT to MA have studied this more than many of us and have determined that two fish a day at 28" can be harvested throughout the entire season without harming the year classes.

I'd love someone to find a source for this. I simply can't believe that's how they estimate the rec quota as he states. Mathmatically it simply does not compute.

-spence

[Karl F]

Thank You for your answer Dave.

[Skitterpop]

This is a great thread/discussion. If it ever ends I`m printing it out for the info. scrap book.

Megan`s letter sounded like they were going to try to improve the format for this year? Did I read it right? My comprehension is temporarily at a low level...I hope its temporary .

Will they have separate surf and boat categories I wonder.

Great reading,
Mike

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

Flap ,I don't want to highjack what has turned into a most excellent discussion and I don't know about ...Invariably leading people or ....what they might reasonably infer or ...what someone might have supported.

I can tell you three things that I know for sure Bob Pond was concerned about

he was definitely concerned about the run off of fertilizer into the Chesapeake Bay system and in particular that that run off extended way up into Cental Pennsylvania and Lancaster County where he could make little headway in convincing people concerned about their religion and culture that they should reduce their potential crop sizes by using less ferilizer to save some fish with stripes.

He was also concerned with possibly relocating fish to try to establish spawning areas in other places besides the Chesepeake bay and Hudson River ( I believe he actually transported fish to the CT river but I'm a little fuzzy on that memory)

He also was in favor of Catch and Release as evidenced by the fact that he would always let me know that his people would be glad to rig my poppers with single tail hooks instead of the standard trebles (if I wanted) to make it easier to practice Catch and Release .

These are facts from which people can invariably be lead or reasonably infer whayever they want.

So what you are saying in this last part, if I may be so bold as to assume this, is that Bob Pond, who developed a fish catching bait as devastating on bass that he named it the Atom, was advocating C&R because he, like Robert Oppenhiemer, who developed the real A-Bomb, felt a touch shall we dare say, guilty, of creating such a powerful weapon? Hmmmm.......

Anyway, talked to the magazine today and some changes might occur. As C. M. says in his e-mail. Irresponsible they are not and will not be but as some wise old bird said before, "You can't please everybody". Human nature being what it is there will always be critics. Hopefully this will put some minds at ease. Now I got to hit the cellar cause I got loads o' plugs to finish. Two weeks and counting.