Van Staal [SIZE="1"]made in china[/SIZE]

[maddog2020]

Dan Hill had mentioned it to me last yr (Fall) they were doing in China and that they have live video of the shop so they can SEE if something goes wrong and correct it as quick as possible. I just thought everyone knew that.

The new VSB and the 275 have the newer instant anti-reverse system in them which are suppose to be way better than the older/first generation ones. I wish they could incorporate it into the older style reels, but that would involve new tooling which could add more to the cost so VS isn't about to do it.

If you send the reel in each yr or service it yourself you should be ok. I personally don't know any one who has KILLED a VS yet.

LOTS of consumer goods are made in China! It is a fact of reality now a days. Go to a store pick up any item and look for country of origin sticker/label.

[joe the plumber]

Originally Posted by maddog2020

Dan Hill had mentioned it to me last yr (Fall) they were doing in China and that they have live video of the shop so they can SEE if something goes wrong and correct it as quick as possible. I just thought everyone knew that.

The new VSB and the 275 have the newer instant anti-reverse system in them which are suppose to be way better than the older/first generation ones. I wish they could incorporate it into the older style reels, but that would involve new tooling which could add more to the cost so VS isn't about to do it.

If you send the reel in each yr or service it yourself you should be ok. I personally don't know any one who has KILLED a VS yet.

LOTS of consumer goods are made in China! It is a fact of reality now a days. Go to a store pick up any item and look for country of origin sticker/label.

My first year with a VS and I loved it,of course.Now help me understand,when I send this thing in for its yearly maintaince where will it go and who will perform the maintaince.

[Mike P]

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop?

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS

[Diamond Tackle]

Originally Posted by Mike P

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop?

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS

Could not POSSIBLY AGREE WITH YOU ANY MORE .
You are 100% correct Sir.
Big Corp America. Save a bundle on manufacturing costs by giving jobs away to a country that builds childrens toys with Lead Paint, and don't give the consumer even a penny break. Just pocket the additional profits.The new American way, everyone is doing it so it must be ok ? SAD.

[Pete_G]

Originally Posted by Mike P

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop?

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS

I just offered my opinion. I know what it costs to make a Stella, I know what it costs to make a VS in the US, and I can guesstimate what it costs to make a Van Staal in China.

As for the rest of it, it's just what it is. It's not an apology. People asked a few questions so I answered. 1. They're made in China. 2. They look, feel, and are the same. Do what you want with the truth.

Lastly, I'm not a "pro-staffer"...

[spence]

Doesn't surprise me at all. This is a very common issue with many luxery goods.

A niche brand with a strong legacy struggles to maintain quality and profit. They are bought by a larger group who seeks to make profit from the brand identity, but to do so need to scale sales to a broader audience. The old production methods don't scale well so production is moved offshore where it's cheaper.

Then the brand is milked for all it's worth. While the new owner leverages the brand identity and touts the legacy quality to justify a continued high (or even higher price) the actual methods end up turning out something that simply wasn't what it once was.

Now that's not to say that you can't make a quality product in China, but it may not be what marketing continues to push.

Soon enough though, some smaller niche vendors will step up and start the cycle again.

-spence

[Diamond Tackle]

It must be Chistmas, cause Spence and I finally agree on something .

Zebco(wc Bradley co.) bought the BRAND name, whatever patents , & what is called "good will" thats all they really care about. Sure there was tooling and parts inventory ,but thats secondary.
They knew right from the getgo that manufacturing in china would give them economies of scale or whatever you wanna call it.
They want YOU, the Van Staal fanatic(and you guys really are fanatical about them I gotta say) to PUSH that Brand name while they reap all the profits.
The comparison with autos out of Japan in the '70's is not really a fair one. Japan had/has a work ethic . Qulity control is definitely not an easy task in China. Im sure Mattel Toys thought they had quality control sorted out pretty good too.
But, The product may ultimately be great, heck it may even IMPROVE in quality. Noone can guess what will happen, but one thing for sure, they wont be passing ANY savings on to you . They will just make more Van Staal hats with the new profits.

[Flaptail]

VanZebco Fabrique au Chinois, tres, tres, ow you say, Funny!

I love it!

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Pete_G

and I can guesstimate what it costs to make a Van Staal in China.

After tooling is complete?
Maybe $10.

God bless profit.

[JFigliuolo]

It is ALL about shareholder profit... nothing else.

[shadow]

I was told that when zebco first took over that they were making the parts overseas and assembling them here.don't know how true it was but this could have been happening for awhile.and it seems that nothing ever goes down in price wishfull thinking however.

[Justfishin']

Like Nebe said:
"Why are all of you so surprised?
van stall is now owned by friggen ZEBCO... Of course this was going to happen."
And Bart:
"what a bunch of bullshat. how is the price not going to drop? they obviously moved the operations over there so that the cost of manufacturing would be less.
F VS. i'll be fishing my 704s until they explode.....which isn't going to happen anytime soon..."

I agree with these guys, another once good product is going by the wayside. I remember when they first came out 20(?)yrs ago-serious reels. I knew Zebco was the end.
I bought 6 parts reels for my U.S. Penns so I've got enough parts till I can buy a lathe and milling machine-......and I'll make my own damn reel.

__________________

[BassDawg]

Originally Posted by Mike P

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop?

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

While that much is true, and VERRRRY SAD, what is also true is the flip side of what's NOT happening in China. One of the primary reasons they can offer lower mfg costs is because they have no standards to measure up to. Here we have OSHA, BBBureau, Industry watchdogs, and one of the biggest impacts to many companies' bottom lines is the way the insurance conglomerates of the "Good Ole US of A" have been fleecing corporate Amercia and driving our economy for decades.

Ever since The Great Depression, the employer driven insurance and bennies system has been moving towards the place where we are now. The Program is simply NOT cost effective to the bottom line. Over there, the CEO's can finally realize/recoop some real fiscal profit and begin to establish some real net worth. Do we know how close they've come to going under while trying to provide the "Best Damn Reel in the World"? Does anyone honestly think that the good People of Tulsa want their jobs, product, their "niche" being niched in China?

While it is entirely possible to produce good reels on foreign soil, and I'm all for China becoming a capitalistic society.....................

In the process it does NOT make sense to me to cut the NUTZ right off of our domestic workers because our insurance and benefits pkgs need to be rethunk. Likewise, if the foreign manufacturers had to compete fairly and measure up to the current American Standards of fair wage, insurance, workman's comp, breaks every two hours, unions, quality control standards, enuff VP's to retool the whole line, etc. etc., then I think that we would find many of our jobs return to American soil.

Perhaps the silver lining is that on the other side of this current economic trend, ownership~management~labor could sit down and negotiate terms that would lead them all to higher profit margins and long term employment practices.

I don't blame VS for trying to leverage their position, ZEBCO is somewhat to blame because without demand......; but this whole concept of moving labels overseas has been prevalent and profitable for sometime now, and it SUX!! It is very sad that we can't seem to figure out how to correct the workplace, so that we can restore US dominance to the world marketplace.

[JoeP]

Mike:

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I've had several conversations with Pete about all the high end reels and he's objective & as informed as he can be. He sells at least 3 of the 4 top end spinning reels so he really has no reason to be biased towards VS - and in my experience he is not.

If he says he's put the "chinese" version of the VS through the ringer I take his word for it. Not saying I'm happy they're now made in China but I believe Pete's analysis of the "chinese" reel.

Only time will tell if they're worse or better - but just remember that every model of reel has had it troubles time to time.

Originally Posted by Mike P

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by JoeP

Mike:

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I've had several conversations with Pete about all the high end reels and he's objective & as informed as he can be. He sells at least 3 of the 4 top end spinning reels so he really has no reason to be biased towards VS - and in my experience he is not.

If he says he's put the "chinese" version of the VS through the ringer I take his word for it. Not saying I'm happy they're now made in China but I believe Pete's analysis of the "chinese" reel.

Only time will tell if they're worse or better - but just remember that every model of reel has had it troubles time to time.

I agree.

[Zeno]

I got to meet a lot of wonderful people thru the net over the years,particularly on this website.
Not one has left a bigger impression on me that PeteG.
Why?
How many other tackle store "pros" call you and try to find out if the hype that goes on the net is real or its subsidized by the manufacturer before they stock their product?Most stores are happy enough to cash in on the hot item, regardless of the actual product qualities.
Pete don't shill or cover for no one.He just tell you like it is,objective to a fault
Something we could all use more in this industry............

Merry Christmas

[Sea Dangles]

Lots of foolish, uninformed comments here. We like what we like,regardless of where it is made. Stella, Saltiga, Abu. Where are they made? Are they cast or machined? What do you think costs more Einstein?Seems some folks have an axe to grind for whatever reason.A$700 reel better be good but there is NOTHING that does not break down with salt,sand or sun.I have seen the accurate spinners.... I have seen the saltiga loyalists upset too.Alberto broke a reel....wow.How could that happen?Swim with a reel,do nothing to maintain it,we'll see who can fish longest. Sure I wish it was still made in the USA I'm proud of my country. Is there something wrong with this? I also would like to see WET (white entetainment television).This does not mean I am a racist,just proud of my race.Lots of stuff slipping away we can't seem to control,add this to the list. Hold your breath because I hear we will be getting some interesting news regarding the ZeeBaas. You heard it here first.
MERRY CHRISTMAS

[tattoobob]

Originally Posted by joe the plumber

My first year with a VS and I loved it,of course.Now help me understand,when I send this thing in for its yearly maintaince where will it go and who will perform the maintaince.

Van Staal Service
6109 E. Apache
Tulsa, OK 74115

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by maddog2020

I personally don't know any one who has KILLED a VS yet.

You need to talk to Kenny "Cowhunter". I think his grand total was 5 VS 250s DOA. I was fishing with Crazy Al the night his VS came apart in his hands--that sideplate that most people can't remove with a strap wrench came off the reel. How is a mystery, but it did happen.

I guess the half dozen guys (that I know personally) who have had the shoulder bolt on the handle snap while jigging the Canal with their brand new 275s this year didn't KILL their VS, but it sure KILLED their fishing for the night unless they had a back-up reel with them. I'd classify that as a wounded reel for sure.