Someone lying thru their teeth....?

[Clogston29]

if he is innocent, why didn't he accuse McNamee of lying or ask why he lied during the recorded phone conversation. it seamed like he took more of a "how could you do this to me" (i.e. how could you rat me out like this) approach. I don't know what his lawyers were thinking playing that tape, you really have to be in Clemen's corner already to come away with anything positive out of that tape.

I think that he did it and I hope that its proven and that lots of other crap about him (adultery, etc.) comes out during the civil suite - all because he's so arrogant.

But if he is innocent, you gotta feel bad for the guy.

[BigFish]

Kevin....take an early baseball card of Seaver or Ryan and a late career card......they all bulked up the same.....thats how power pitchers are built! That proves nothing...everyone changes over the years! Difference with Bonds is he put on muscle......and lots of it! How many players have a career year (73 homeruns?) at 38 years old??? Come on!

[BigFish]

Originally Posted by Clogston29

if he is innocent, why didn't he accuse McNamee of lying or ask why he lied during the recorded phone conversation. it seamed like he took more of a "how could you do this to me" (i.e. how could you rat me out like this) approach. I don't know what his lawyers were thinking playing that tape, you really have to be in Clemen's corner already to come away with anything positive out of that tape.

I think that he did it and I hope that its proven and that lots of other crap about him (adultery, etc.) comes out during the civil suite - all because he's so arrogant.

But if he is innocent, you gotta feel bad for the guy.

Adultery???? Where does that come from???

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Kevin....take an early baseball card of Seaver or Ryan and a late career card......they all bulked up the same.....thats how power pitchers are built! That proves nothing...everyone changes over the years! Difference with Bonds is he put on muscle......and lots of it! How many players have a career year (73 homeruns?) at 38 years old??? Come on!

great point

[Saltheart]

My theory is that Macnamee probably indicated he had info on "big players" to get some deal for immunity. When all he really had was a 1 shot usage by petite with circumstances that may show medical nescessity , the immunity deal was in jeapody . he had to come up with something else so opted to make the stuff up about Roger. That was big enough new news to get him his immunity deal.

Anyway , that's how i see it right now.

[The Dad Fisherman]

My point wasn't the card, that just seems to be what people use to justify that someone used roids....that they bulked up.

My point is why is it so hard to believe that Roger did it and so Easy to believe that Bonds and others did.

Everybody says that look at Bonds he wasn't that big when he was a rookie look at the size of him now he must be juicing guilty Bastard.

But they see Roger, who was great when he was with us up until his last couple of years with us....where he became average....then he went to Toronto Met this guy MacNamee and started winning Cy Youngs again...then goes to New York takes MacNamee with him and wins another Cy Young....Now his Bestest buddy Pettite meets the guy, guy says he shoots e'm both up with the stuff. Pettite ADMITS that he was getting it from the guy....yet we still aren't supposedto believe that Roger did it.

C'mon

[EarnedStripes44]

Dad's right. It does not look good for Roger no matter how you spin it...

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

But they see Roger, who was great when he was with us up until his last couple of years with us....where he became average....

C'mon

give me stats that tell me he was average and what years because they can all be argued the other way

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by BigFish

That proves nothing...everyone changes over the years! Difference with Bonds is he put on muscle......and lots of it! How many players have a career year (73 homeruns?) at 38 years old??? Come on!

Yes we do--our once sculpted pecs become man-boobs, or even worse, merge with our expanding waistlines.

Take another look at Raw-juh. That isn't fat you see on him making up all that bulk.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by wrikerjr

give me stats that tell me he was average and what years because they can all be argued the other way

His last 4 years with the Sox his record was

1993 11-14
1994 9-7
1995 10-5
1996 10-13

Not what I would Call Cy Young numbers

[The Dad Fisherman]

Here's another one.....

Clemens signed with the Yank-mees in 1999

1999 14-10
2000 13 -8

MacNamee signed on with the Yank-mees as the Strength and Conditioning coach in 2001

2001 20-3....and another Cy Young

After the 2001 season the Yank-mees let MacNamee go

2002 13-6

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

His last 4 years with the Sox his record was

1993 11-14
1994 9-7
1995 10-5
1996 10-13

Not what I would Call Cy Young numbers

in 94' clemens pitched 170 innings and had a 2.85 era and a whip of 1.143. Its just he was on the red sox who sucked record of 54 and 61

[wrikerjr]

i'm not saying if clemens did or didn't i will give him the benefit of the doubt but if your basing it on performance you need to look at alot more than just wins and losses. That is the function of your team overall not just the individual.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by wrikerjr

in 94' clemens pitched 170 innings and had a 2.85 era and a whip of 1.143. Its just he was on the red sox who sucked record of 54 and 61

In 1994 it was strike shortened so he didn't have a full season, he may have tired out down the stretch, you never know

In 1995 he only had 140 innings...starting to show some signs of wear....granted in 1996 he pitched 240 innings....but his ERA also climbed considerably...still decent but was up almost a run per 9


you asked me to show you why I thought he was Average...this is why.

Today...if we brought in a Top Line Starting pitcher and he gave you a 40-39 record and he averaged 186 inning pitched per year for 4 years....wouldn't you consider that a dissapointment...thats pretty average stuff

[Mike P]

Clemens career year for ERA was 2005, I see--at age 42. Pitching half of his games in the bandbox known as Minute Maid park.

[BassDawg]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

My theory is that Macnamee probably indicated he had info on "big players" to get some deal for immunity. When all he really had was a 1 shot usage by petite with circumstances that may show medical nescessity , the immunity deal was in jeapody . he had to come up with something else so opted to make the stuff up about Roger. That was big enough new news to get him his immunity deal.

Anyway , that's how i see it right now.

OR..........................

What about this scenario, though it's hard to believe that MLB is this smart after a review of most of the circumstances.

Could McNamee, a former NYC cop, have been a NARC planted by the feds, with the blessing of MLB due to the Union's blatant lack of cooperation, after the Sosa and McGuire thing had reached its full potential and brought Baseball back ~as it was designed to do? Since the barn door had been flung so wide opened, how else would MLB be able to rein in what they had given the old winkwink/nudgenudge to in the first place? They were certainly being stonewalled by the player's union and handcuffed by their own complicitness during any CBA negotiations then, and subsequent talks leading us up to the current situation. Who better to reveal the wide and reaching scope of rampant Steroid and HGH use than someone on the inside, someone who could get to the likes of Radomski, Dr Horsejuice, and Players X, Y, and Z? MLB prolly knew all the names and even had dates and information, but had no way to implicate them under the protection of the players' cba.

Is it possible that MLB was trying to put a stop to this fiasco since Ueberoth? Former Olympic Chairman, home of the most stringent drug testing policies in the world, hired to "clean-up" bissball? Only now MLB has a real problem.....................

Not just sluggers were juicing, but pitchers were getting into HGH and marquis ones at that!! Marginal players were taking anabolics to 'make it to tha bigs', yer Palmeiros and yer Tejadas began juicing to enhance their game and boost their stats ~hell, everyone else was doing it, your Petites and your Byrds were HGHing to make their next start in the rotation without feeling their age or the strains of Aug/Sept/Oct, and then there are the superstars that didn't want everyone else cheating to catch them even though their natural talents still would have put them well past the lesser lights. And this is where Roger the Dodger and Barroids the Bum stick needles into such fine specimens of athleticism and ruin their already stellar careers. Butt, pun intended, hey! It's not their fault, they were just following suit!! HOGWARSH!!!

The real problem with HGH, Larry, is that there is no eye test or conclusive blood test for it and that it probably is going to be revealed as a good thing in the long run. I mean if it can help granny heal quicker and stronger from her hip replacement, why not make it available to our finest athletes under strict guidlines as something better and far more effective than cortisone that is used solely for rehab and recovery ~roughly the same purpose as the aforementioned cortisone? So long as its available for all players, what's the big woop?

Lastly, does anyone else think that a former NYPD investigator and his team of lawyers is gonna be out thunk by this Gunslinger from Katy and his 'teem' of Country bumpkins? It will be very interesting to, hopefully, hear the McNamee Camp's tape. Because if this guy is a NARC and MLB is on the ball here, then I find it hard to believe that Roger's 17 minutes are the only minutes that were shared between him and his buddy Mac. And if McNamee is working with the feds and MLB, then it is no coincidence that he was found by the Mitchell Investigation; quite the contrary, it will have been a carefully crafted plan to rid MLB of its most sordid and still festering wound, in the history of The Game.

Anybody else looking for Charlie Hustle's name on next year's ballot ?

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

In 1994 it was strike shortened so he didn't have a full season, he may have tired out down the stretch, you never know

In 1995 he only had 140 innings...starting to show some signs of wear....granted in 1996 he pitched 240 innings....but his ERA also climbed considerably...still decent but was up almost a run per 9


you asked me to show you why I thought he was Average...this is why.

Today...if we brought in a Top Line Starting pitcher and he gave you a 40-39 record and he averaged 186 inning pitched per year for 4 years....wouldn't you consider that a dissapointment...thats pretty average stuff

40-39 depends on the team. Johan santana's number were up this year doesn't mean anything. Just saying need to look at everything relative.

Their was a strike season then he got hurt and then he had a below average year.