Is this the begining of the end?

[JFigliuolo]

Are we repeating the 70's and hammering the population to the brink again? Or is all the talk much ado about nothing?

What's your opinion?

Personally, I'm not sure. By far my worst season, after 2 poor seasons. I'm still seeing small fish, but not alot in areas that used to hold quite a few. BUT, I'm doing more Yak fishing this year and still getting into the groove, so my experience this year is not indicative of a "normal" season for me.

The YOY index (from the below source) while HIGHLY variable has been declining since peaking in 1996.

However, note that during the last time BIG fish were the norm, the YOY index was EXTREMELY low. Unlike now, where it is right around the 54 year average.

I wasn't fishing back then, but was the rec. pressure back then as high as it is today? If not than even though the YOY index is OK, more recs killing bass means all things being equal a higher YOY would be needed to sustain the fishery

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/dnrnews/p...7/100407c.html

What are your thoughts?

[BigFish]

I think something is unbalanced.....definite shortage of fish, even small fish this season after last season which had plenty???? The only thing I can put ny finger on is the abundance of bait, and BIG bait, and the fact that the fish seem to be staying off shore following that bait? I hope that is the case.....other than that, I see problems.

[EarnedStripes44]

Have not seen a lot of large fish up around here in Boston. I don't know whats going on.

[EarnedStripes44]

from the shore*

[Clogston29]

personally, I think its just a matter of bait being offshore = fish being offshore this year. next year it may be the opposite. who knows? there are so many factors that lead to this.

bait and fish being offshore in turn makes stripers easier to catch for the boat guys who really know what they're doing out there (especially commerical guys, who keep many fish, and bigger fish pay more, which leads to word getting around that there are big fish everwhere offshore) and harder for surf guys and more novice & more shallow water focused boaters. since it is now harder for the majority of anglers, especially anglers who tend to post here, opinions sway towards "there must be something wrong".

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Clogston29

and harder for surf guys and more novice & more shallow water focused boaters. since it is now harder for the majority of anglers, especially anglers who tend to post here, opinions sway towards "there must be something wrong".

Yeah, but when I hear accomplished rec and comm anglers thinking the same thing, my ears perk up...

The lack of small fish, and the abundance of big fish in a select few locations has me concerned...

[JFigliuolo]

[QUOTE=RIROCKHOUND;606980]Yeah, but when I hear accomplished rec and comm anglers thinking the same thing, my ears perk up...
QUOTE]

Me too... Especially guys that fished through the moritrum and the time leading up to it.

[Clogston29]

that's true. being "up here" where striper fishing isn't as prominent as southern MA and RI we really don't get much first hand info from commerical/very experienced guys so that probably influences my opinion. i will say that there are good numbers of smaller fish up this way.

the abundence of big fish in concentrated areas does concern me, because it makes them very vulnerable to overfishing.

[fishbones]

Maybe some of the "oldtimers" can chime in on this, but I think this is different from the decline in the 80's. From what I've been told by my dad, back in the 70's, guys were filling their boats with 16 - 20 inch fish, or stacking them up on shore like cordwood. I've seen pictures of my dad and grandfather standing in the front yard with dozens of small fish all around them on the ground. I'm guessing that the decline in stocks had a lot to do with so many small fish being taken.

Maybe there's more people fishing now, but with the limits in place it should mean that more smaller fish are able to grow and become breeders. Even with the comms taking their limits, it's not a big percentage of the total fish taken.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I think the fishery is in pretty decent shape now. I've caught and released more keepers in a lot fewer trips this year than in the last several years. Also, I only went out for schoolies a couple of times and I didn't think there were fewer around. Nor were they difficult to find. All that being said, I agree that a 1 fish limit at 36 inches would be best for the fishery.

[dar3]

I agree with clogston 29. The fisheries have never been under such a microscope is there shady stuff going on yes there is and if you think there is not I have some investments for you. Is everybody who catches fish and keeps them wrong and shady as long as they follow the law. Not in the laws eyes but maybe in yours How many off you guys keep logs of fish caught ,were they were caught , the tide , moon and year.etc? I feel if you keep these stats I bet you would be suprised that they would correspond with the yoy report or at least close to either side of the scale. I have seen so many talking about big fish kills and how they took these fish out of the gene pool etc. I am not 100 % but I also believe that the new laws that are up and coming are to allow for a better data base to keep better statictics for the future not just for the money. Will it work over night NO Will it help with the future I believe it will. The more people that supply data to the authorities in the area that need the info the better we will be. First people need to be honest on what they catch and report for it to be helpfull. I see there are numerous groups within different orginizations involved on this site. Why not be on the front and have your club keep info and basic tracks of fishing trips length weight etc. then the club can submit there findings to the proper people. A simple example is when I was involved with the turkey federation I got up at early hours to be part of a volunteer study to help with the turkey findings in this state I also was involved in helping stock some of the original birds in RI with the RI chapter. No money gained no ego gained it was a simple vlounteer effort to HELP support the things I believe in. If all the people that are asking were are the fish start doing there part now and in the future we will have fisheries for future generations to come. Also the size and possesion limits are different in certain states which is hard to help control a population on a migratory fish. as they do not know what state they are in as they swim. I believe there is a challenge presently in congress about fluke sizes etc. This is some food for thought. I also know fromall the different orginazations I have been involved in the there will always be debates, immature arguments , wars, anme calling and such. All I can say is next year when I hit the water I will have pad and pen keeping track of my fishing days as I know I will be doing the fishery good and I also will be a better fisherman as my memory is not so good. This is just my two cents.

Peace to all and happy fishing

Dar3

[Flaptail]

There are billions of little fish around up here, what we are seeing is what we hoped for, a mix of both. The pogies coming back are helping to draw the bigger fish back to the cape. Our only problem now is mung and seals.

We are definetly into the doldrums up here now, a bit early but the water temps have warmed significantly. Hoping the Bonito show soon.

The good side of the warmer weather is that the outer beaches have opened up earlier but Sandy Neck is screwed as the Terns nested late and probably won't open all the way until mid September.

I wouldn't worry too much.

[Rockport24]

Clogston's gotta right IMO, the big fish are just off shore or concentrated in certain spots where they are being slaughtered (that is cause for concern, but maybe we shoud check the YOY indices to see how many are really being caught compared to how many should be out there)
there are so many damn factors, it's hard to speculate, but that's what this site is for I guess

Truthfully, I noticed a drop off in the "schooliepalooza" we experience every year up on the North Shore, but I think it had more to do with conditions that were keeping the fish off the feed other than the sheer lack of fish. One night we watched dozens of fish swim by a dock and not eat anything....
I still had some good schoolie days in the spring though compared to years past.

[Clogston29]

Originally Posted by Rockport24

Truthfully, I noticed a drop off in the "schooliepalooza" we experience every year up on the North Shore

I think the rebounding of pogie, mackeral and herring stocks has alot to do with this. The fish are still there, just not at the same place and not acting the same way.

[Rockport24]

yeah Josh and you know the spot I'm talking about too I think, only one good day there this year, granted I didn't get out as much but 1) they seemed to show up a lot later and 2) much pickier, even when they were there

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

There are billions of little fish around up here, what we are seeing is what we hoped for, a mix of both. The pogies coming back are helping to draw the bigger fish back to the cape.

I wouldn't worry too much.

I agree. Check out the YOY indices between 1971 and 1988, and compare them to the indices over the last 20 years. And bear in mind that between 1971 and the mid-80s, the minimum size limit was 16" fork length and there were no commercial quotas in effect anywhere.

By the way--an "average" YOY index was 8.0 until recently. Recent spawns have been so successful that an "average" YOY index is now 12.0--that's a 50% increase.

[FishermanTim]

Here's something to ponder.....
What if the drop in smaller bass (schoolies) is the result of the "survival of the fittest" scenario. Since the bunker down south have been harvested for years, depleating the bass' natural food supply, why wouldn't the larger bass resort to cannibalism?
If pike will eat smaller pike, and yellow perch will eat smaller perch (seen 1st hand) why wouldn't stripers eat their own young?
It may be an indirect effect of mankind's interference.

This is only a possible theory....

[plankton]

Definitely plenty of schoolies around on the North Shore, I have seen massive schools of 24" fish with smaller/larger ones in the mix, and while there may be a lot of bait offshore, there is certainly no shortage inshore as well. I think shore catches around here are down due to the huge amount of natural forage available, I've been out in the skiff livelining macs and actually watched my offering been molested to death by hordes of schoolies, without being eaten. Over the past few seasons, I would say that the overall size of the bass around has increased, an estuary spot that was full of 12" - 18" stripers two or three seasons back is now holding more fish in the two-foot range, which was unthinkable there a few years ago. Long story short, I have no idea what's going to happen, but I'm very interested in how the fall run will shape up.

[RIROCKHOUND]

My take is that I'm worried about 10 years from now.
Declining YOY (maybe)
More disease impacting the young bass
More rec catch.

I hope I'm wrong.

[steve]

JF, I agree ! This is the 3 rd season in a row for me that has been lousy. What scares me the most is that there is not alot of small bass around. I can cite alot of example, but I won't bore anyone. All I can tell you is that surf fishing for stripers was much, much better in the 80's and 90's. The fishing has been steadily declining since 1998.

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

There are billions of little fish around up here, what we are seeing is what we hoped for, a mix of both. The pogies coming back are helping to draw the bigger fish back to the cape. Our only problem now is mung and seals.

We are definetly into the doldrums up here now, a bit early but the water temps have warmed significantly. Hoping the Bonito show soon.

The good side of the warmer weather is that the outer beaches have opened up earlier but Sandy Neck is screwed as the Terns nested late and probably won't open all the way until mid September.

I wouldn't worry too much.

I agree. We have perhaps the best fishery right now I've seen in my lifetime. Yes, I caught a lot more giant fish in the 80's and 90' than I do now, but it was due to the fact I practically lived on the water and there was an abundance of very large fish in the areas I was most competent with in terms of finding and catching fish.

You hear the same "sky is falling" excuses every year from people who are having bad luck. I haven't taken a fish over 30" in three weeks. It’s not from lack of effort or available fish. They're just parked in a different place than they were a few weeks ago on a different pattern.

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by steve

JF, I agree ! This is the 3 rd season in a row for me that has been lousy. What scares me the most is that there is not alot of small bass around. I can cite alot of example, but I won't bore anyone. All I can tell you is that surf fishing for stripers was much, much better in the 80's and 90's. The fishing has been steadily declining since 1998.

Maybe where you are. You want small fish? Come up here and I will get you sick of them, last year we caught fish in the surf in spots like Cape Cod Bay of all places right up to and including Thanksgiving eve ( course can't call the waves in CC Bay surf) but just like the last ten years or more more school bass than we can shake a stick at from mid April til December. I could go out any night I want almost and catch school bass til I get sick of them, which at this time of year is a lot sooner than I would than in April.

This year so far has been far and away the best year for 20 pound and over fish ( for me to the high 30's so far) than the last five. Last year I had 22 fish at the 30 mark or just better for the year, this year should easily eclipse that. Those fish came from hard work in locales most would not go near or nights on end in places where the majority of fisherman would leave, say, on the bottom of the tide thinking it was all over when in actuality it would just be about to begin.

The number of fisherman on the outercape beaches fishing for example in the dark wee hours is almost nil. Seems everyone is keyed in on dusk or dawn.

2nd Rip at the RACE is a perfect example. Be there at 4am til 7am standing room only trucks bumper to bumper. Be there on the right tide at 2am and you can hear an echo it's so vacant.

Christ we were catching high 20 pound to low 30 pound fish on six inch sluggos, needles and spooks on the flats in June, some days between a few of us in tin boats or wading the beaches and inlet openings we had six or seven apiece.

For years we watched you RI guys tong them, now for some reason they seem to have come our way on CC. Fish have tails and follow bait and as has been said, the best thing about Striped Bass fishing is that you can't just take straight aim at them, just when you think you have got them figured out they do something completely different. Expecting the same fishing to continue year after year is really stretching. What about your big fish bonanza on pogies this year and last? We have learned that up here on the cape. The good years always had lean years in between. The 60's then a six to 8 year gap then the Mid to late 70's then the drought of fish in the mid 80's then the boom of the early 90's on the outer cape then 2001 to 2003 we did okay.

So many factors that are not mentioned when the fishing goes bad, water quality is a big one that gets overlooked, so many oceanside trophy homes with ChemLawn treated lawns leaching into the water, water temps, bait abundance or scarcity, the ruts we get into year after year as in how we start at point a and end the season at point b like we always do putting the same footprints on the same rocks or sand at the same time each year. Bait off shore, winds predominate direction, moon phase in relation to the calender. The tides themselves, offshore storms affecting the surf conditions.Luck. Slumps. Hot streaks. etc etc.

So many things a lot of people don't even consider that they should.

I have been fishing bass for since I caught my first one at 6 years old that was 46 years ago. I put myself through college catching bass from the beach and with my skiff plus working days on a charter boat. There has never been a place that I can think of that has consistently produced bass in quantity year after year. It's always been a crap shoot as to how each year goes and where it was the best. Some places had strings of years then off years then on again.

Just gotta do a lot of detective work, be willing to put on miles and push on until it happens and then you know only one thing you can count on, it won't be the same tomorrow, next week or next year by any means 75% of the time.

[Vogt]

I have noticed alot of the same stuff in CT guys. THis spring we had the normal schoolie fishing (fish in the 12-18 range spring stuff) but WAY few of them. Since then the smallest fish we've caught have been in the 24inch range with most of the fish we're catching being keepers. As previously mentioned, estuary type spots that are ussually full of micro bass during the summer are almost completely void of them.

The point is, things are deffinately changing....

[JFigliuolo]

Flap,

that's good news that the fish are on the cape... I'm not overly concerned that thery are not in my back yard, well hell, my back yard (and the hour and change between me and the ocean) is all forest anyway. Be kind of odd to find bass there.

I like hearing the bass are somewhere in numbers. Since I don't travel in your circles, nor do I drive out to the cape I wouldn't know.

Kind of the purpose of this thread, to get a feeling about "the big picture".

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by steve

JF, I agree ! This is the 3 rd season in a row for me that has been lousy. What scares me the most is that there is not alot of small bass around.

Originally Posted by JFigliuolo

By far my worst season, after 2 poor seasons. I'm still seeing small fish, but not alot in areas that used to hold quite a few.

Sounds exactly like my 2006, 2007, and 2008 seasons! 2005 was great - since then horrible...

And I know others (not fishing the bunker schools in boats) saying the same thing.

I am definitely concerned.

[steve]

JF- Flaptail is lucky. He's one of the only surf guys that is having agood year so far. I work in a tackle shop and hear alot. Most I've spoken to have not done well in RI since May which was very good by the way. April was good also for schoolies in RI but they have disappeared. I guess they are on the Cape.

[Mike P]

Look at it this way--as late as 2005, you had a spawn that would have been in the top 5 prior to anything before 1989. And last year was a solid, above average spawn. In the 60s it would have rated as a great spawn.

All of those fish couldn't have died in some cataclysmic tragedy without someone seeing the evidence of it, and they are still too small to have been legally harvested anywhere--even in MD with its 18" limit.

That YOY chart, also, is just for Chesapeake fish. It doesn't take Hudson and the minor river systems into account, and the Hudson has had some very good spawns of late.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by JoeP

Sounds exactly like my 2006, 2007, and 2008 seasons! 2005 was great - since then horrible...

And I know others (not fishing the bunker schools in boats) saying the same thing.

I am definitely concerned.

I'm confused...isnt the success of the boats using bunker indcaitive of plenty of fish? To the points made earlier, just because people are not catching fish doesnt mean there were no fish. The fish were in RI in large numbers from May through the first week of July.

Its seems that ever since the bunker showed up in RI, the surf fishing slowed down, its been the same discussion out here for over 3 years. I think that is a different discussion than the health of the striper population.

[JoeP]

Jim. Without typing too much here - combine all that was said above with all the large fish being killed and what Steve is saying - as well as problems here & there all over (i.e. Maine this year): and I think there is an overall over-fishing problem brewing. Just my opinion.

Many more anglers the past several years; less restrictive size regulations (i.e. 2 fish @ 28" here in RI); gradual increase in commercial quotas; etc., etc. = the concern.

[steve]

RIJimmy- I think the bunker in Gansett bay has alot to do with the surf fishing or lack there of along the narraganstt shoreline. Oh, and if you want some doom and gloom reports on striper fishing, talk to surf guys who fish Rhody's south shore, bass fishing stinks down there and has been for the last couple of years. It is not even a consideration for my surf trips anymore, not even in the fabulous fall. Also, I talk to a fishing writer every week so as to give a surf report for my area for a prominent weekly saltwater magazine. He tells me that most of the surf reports from Ct. to Maine have generally been poor for the past 6 weeks. He believes there is a real problem.

[Rockport24]

ya know it would be nice if there were fish everywhere (both on and off shore, up and down the coast) but was it ever really like that? Even in the so called "Glory Days" (I'm not being flip at all here, I'm a relative newbie just wondering)