Hamas - Time for a dialogue?

[afterhours]

hamas is a terrorist organization randomly attacking and killing civilians while hiding amongst civilians. these are the most cowardly of people and should be eliminated now...anyone who sanctions their actions is not much better.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by afterhours

hamas is a terrorist organization randomly attacking and killing civilians while hiding amongst civilians. these are the most cowardly of people and should be eliminated now...anyone who sanctions their actions is not much better.

And yet, much like a terrorist organization the Israeli regime is mindlessly bombing Palestine and killing hundreds of civilians.

Originally Posted by slow eddie

perhaps in 1948, after the founding of the jewish state, the other arab states had taken these people in we would not be having this debate.

Taken them in? It was forced upon them.

And lets not forget the military land grabs done my Israel.

[afterhours]

Originally Posted by likwid

And yet, much like a terrorist organization the Israeli regime is mindlessly bombing Palestine and killing hundreds of civilians.



Taken them in? It was forced upon them.

And lets not forget the military land grabs done my Israel.

you have to protect your people....the cowardly basturds hide within the populace. the israelis let it be know beforehand to the point of calling people, read palestinians, on their cell phones and warned them...

[likwid]

Originally Posted by afterhours

you have to protect your people....the cowardly basturds hide within the populace. the israelis let it be know beforehand to the point of calling people, read palestinians, on their cell phones and warned them...

Yeah because people who can barely afford food have cellphones right?

[afterhours]

Originally Posted by likwid

Yeah because people who can barely afford food have cellphones right?

they knew what was about to happen, ie: stay away from known targets.


a good start would be the palestinians electing a non- terrorist gov't.
i don't like anyone dying for no good reason especially innocents on both sides. only two solutions imho are annilation or deplomacy- i favor diplomacy. only thing in the way starting a meaningful diplomatic progress as i see it is the freekin' terrorists, if they were'nt lobbing rockets at israel this campaign would'nt be happening, just my .02

[likwid]

Originally Posted by afterhours

a good start would be the palestinians electing a non- terrorist gov't.

Same should be said for Israel.

[JohnR]

Hmmm, lessea. Dialogue between a Guvment using often justified and just as often heavy handed tactics, and a duly elected terrorist organization that says vote for me or I'll shoot you dog, hmmm.

Yeh, this will be easy. What is worse? Israel? Or the corrupt PLO? Or the hamas terrorists?

Yeh, plenty of blame to go around on this one...

[spence]

Originally Posted by afterhours

you have to protect your people....the cowardly basturds hide within the populace. the israelis let it be know beforehand to the point of calling people, read palestinians, on their cell phones and warned them...

The IRA used to do the same thing, call in a warning before they'd blow up a pub.

This really isn't about protecting your people as much as it is about punishment. Israel isn't fighting a defined enemy, it's an insurgency of which they are partially responsible for helping to form (I'd note that you could say the exact same thing about our own "war on terror"). Any political solution will require giving something up so every so often they lash out.

Ultimately their actions will do more to build sympathy for the innocent killed and strengthen the position of Hamas who will claim to be defending them. You could say the same thing about Iraq (yea, you saw that coming).

So they level Gaza...to what end? Does anyone really think this will help keep Israel safer?

Or perhaps a better question...

What do you think is a reasonable end state for all of this? Two-state solution? Israel taking everything? Return to the 69 borders?

And remember, there are militants on both sides.

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

What do you think is a reasonable end state for all of this? Two-state solution? Israel taking everything? Return to the 69 borders?



-spence

Don't know, they've had 60 years to figure it out.

I have a feeling Israel will take this to the limit this time ,militarily, to have the best upper hand possible in wahtever comes.

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by likwid

And yet, much like a terrorist organization the Israeli regime is mindlessly bombing Palestine and killing hundreds of civilians.



Taken them in? It was forced upon them.

And lets not forget the military land grabs done my Israel.

The Iraeli army has been reverse 911'ing the private homes that surround buildings that are going to be bombed before they bomb them.

A war was fought and somebody lost. The losers lost thier land. Why doesn't this dialogue take place when fifty missiles a day were and are being shot into Israel by Hamas. Hamas is only using the residents in Gaza that are injured or killed in the worse possible way. Hamas mistreats and abuses thier fellow Gazans worst than the Israeli army does. The hide among them, fight among them, to turn public opinon against the Jews. Hamas, Iran, Syria are no different than the Nazi's. They want all Jews dead. At least the Jews only want to kill the people who would harm them. If we turned a blind eye to the middle east in the past the Jews would have all been killed many times over years ago.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

The Iraeli army has been reverse 911'ing the private homes that surround buildings that are going to be bombed before they bomb them.

I had read there were some examples of this but that it wasn't widespread.

A war was fought and somebody lost. The losers lost thier land.

Gross oversimplification. The counter argument is that militant Jewish settlers have been illegally taking land with or without war for 70 years. Granted, many of these settlements have been removed, but not without International pressure and in many cases the Jewish settlers have fought even the Israeli government.

Why doesn't this dialogue take place when fifty missiles a day were and are being shot into Israel by Hamas.

Underdogs often get to play by different rules. Go outside of the US Media and the rest of the world reports on the issue with much more sympathy for the Palestenian people.

People in the Middle East also give credit to those who fight the power regardless of their means or methods. Saddam certainly milked this and Bin Laden has been an expert of manipulating these emotions to gain support for his actions rather than methods.

Hamas is only using the residents in Gaza that are injured or killed in the worse possible way. Hamas mistreats and abuses thier fellow Gazans worst than the Israeli army does. The hide among them, fight among them, to turn public opinon against the Jews.

I'm sure a lot of the people are thankful that someone is standing up for them. This isn't a traditional army holding territory, they are in and among the people because that's the only place they can be. If anything it's out of necessity.

Hamas, Iran, Syria are no different than the Nazi's. They want all Jews dead. At least the Jews only want to kill the people who would harm them. If we turned a blind eye to the middle east in the past the Jews would have all been killed many times over years ago.

Israel is more than capable of defending itsself. And I don't buy the fact that everybody is out to exterminate the Jews. Sure it's an easy political device to stoke the fires and get media attention, and this isn't to say that general anti-semitism isn't rampant among Arabs, but if this was really the case why doesn't Hamas or Iran strike at the Jews of say...New York City?

It is impossible to take a snapshot of the region and make any sense of it. This is a great dysfunction that's grown over time and both sides are to blame.

You could say the same for much of our own policy in the area. We seem to casually forget that there's history there, like things have just sprouted up overnight.

-spence

[Joe]

As far as the Arab world is concerned, there may as well be an American flag painted on the tanks and planes right next to the Israeli - they see no distinction between the policies of the U.S. and Israel.
The Palestinian question and our support of the Saudi regime are at the heart of instability in the region and terrorism throughout the world.
I don't think there is a solution. We're not going to talk to terrorists, the Israelis are not going to concede their land. Eventually the terrorists will exact a bloodbath via a weapon of mass destruction, we'll retaliate, and Gabriel will blow his horn.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Joe

The Palestinian question

I seem to remember a certain Nazi calling it the "The Jewish question" once upon a time too.

Hamas, Iran, Syria are no different than the Nazi's. They want all Jews dead. At least the Jews only want to kill the people who would harm them. If we turned a blind eye to the middle east in the past the Jews would have all been killed many times over years ago.

Really? Other than the thrunting of an Iranian figurehead with no power, would you like to show us the irrefutable evidence of this?

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by spence

Underdogs often get to play by different rules.

-spence

Exactly. "Free socieities" must be necessarily constrained by their own civilized faculties - the rule of law, due process, human rights - when engaged in warfare against "terrorists". An Israeli judge framed it this way: "in defense of our way of life we sometimes have to fight with one hand bound behind our back, but let there be no question as to who has the upper hand".

[Joe]

All that type of rhetoric does is inspire another person to strap on a suicide belt and hop a bus.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by Joe

All that type of rhetoric does is inspire another person to strap on a suicide belt and hop a bus.

...so whats the solution, is it more hellfire missiles and M84s in response to suicide bombers.