Createx clear - gloss or matte?

[VTBasser]

What do you use - Createx gloss top coat or Createx matte top coat? Or are both needed depending on what your doing?

Got a brush and want to get some but don't know which to get.

[stripercrazy]

hope someone uses them....and will chime in...I'm wondering if it would make a difference if your epoxying over it...

[The Dad Fisherman]

I use the Envirotex in the spray can for the scratch coat....top coat I use Devcon 2 ton

[scottw]

the reviews of the Createx topcoat that I've seen have not been very good, I use System3 WR-LPU topcoat but it's extremely expensive...in excess of 50/quart and 150/gallon as opposed to 10-14/quart for most clear waterbased finishes, I only use it because I need it for my busines and can justify stealing a little for plugs....I'm convinced that I've used most on the market trying to find something that will perform the way that I need it to and each has it's own quirks whether it is odor, amber color vs. water clear, recoat time, some will "orange peel" or bead when sprayed or brushed, some lay out much better than others..., the next best and affordable product that I've found is Ceramithane (810-28 clear gloss) (BTW gloss will always be a harder finish than satin or semi)which , like the S3 it has UV inhibitors and it is a cross-linking acrylic-urethane...you can get it from any ACE, they might have to order it but it is exceptional, it is a GRAHAM product...the ACE brand waterbased clear and they did for a time offer a hardener additive, it is very good for the money and very accessible...the System3 topcoat has a hardener additive that makes it so hard that you have to recoat within a window of time or not bother.....fine or super fine sanding pads are an easy way to rough up the scratch coat for to accept the epoxy of your choice...I like the System3 so far but you can't go right down to Michaels and get it like ETEX and use a 40% off coupon...I really wish that you could...

almost forgot, you will likely need to reduce any of these a little with water to get a good spray with an airbrush...keep a blowdryer close by and set it on low or no heat, use it to set the polyurethane up as you spray coats so that you won't have drips and runs, pooling....I mix poly into the paint during the entire painting process for a number of reasons and also use it to apply metallic pigment powders

[VTBasser]

I'm asking about using the clear paint as part of the painting process not as a final top coat. I've been using Devcon 2T for that. Sorry if I was a little unclear.

I thought I have seen some folks mention using "clear" between layers of paint to add depth or lock a layer so you could wipe off a mistake or as a final coat or a scratch coat before epoxying. Just wondering which to use: gloss or matte.

[scottw]

final coat - ETEX, SYSTEM3, DEVCON two part epoxies

water based poly's- you can add clearwaterbased to any of your waterbased "painting coats" and then a final coat of clear to seal everything up and provide a surface to "scratch" to provide the final epoxy better adhesion without damaging your paint job

any of the polyurethanes will do the trick for the "scrach coat" that DAD mentioned or you can spray the envirotex as he does...it's simply a way to seal you work and creat a surface that will accept the finish epoxy and provide a good bond

[stripercrazy]

heres a question does the gloss dry harder than the matte...does it matter? there getting scuffed up anyway

[VTBasser]

Originally Posted by stripercrazy

heres a question does the gloss dry harder than the matte...does it matter? there getting scuffed up anyway

From some info at Dixieart:

Matte Top Coat – On most surfaces it provides a water proof crystal clear matte finish with UV protectants which remains flexible soft and will not crack or discolor. When sprayed lightly, it will remain somewhat supple to the touch when used on fabrics. However, transparent base is the recommended “Top Binder” to spray over your completed fabric design.

Gloss Top Coat – Same as above on most surfaces, except not recommended for use on fabrics (does not remain as supple to the touch) and it will dry to a gloss finish.

[scottw]

gloss does dry/cure harder in most instances, you can use any of them depending on what kind of finish you are going for, the more gloss coating you add the deeper and shinier the final surface will appear, the only reason to use matte or a flat finish is because you desire that effect but a heavy coat of a two part epoxy at the finish will erase that I think, you could...I haven't done this, but if the intent is to end up with a flat finish on the plug, you could try adding a flattening agent(gloss flattener) to the finish epoxy...I think it is mentioned in plugology that the flat finish on certain plugs was more desirable...I don't know if there is a discernable difference in appearance once the plug hits the water....

gloss, satin or semi probably dosen't matter as a binder while painting the decoration or using it as a scratch coat because the heavy two part epoxy finish coats are going to be thick and shiny no matter what you put them over, they do vary in their adhesion qualities so it's good to provide a surface that they like....

sorry if that's wordy but I spend all day in my work trying to figure these exact things out..sometimes it's just finding the right combination of products... but then the humiditiy and/or temp changes

[numbskull]

I'm an idiot about this stuff, but after a succession of nightmares using System Three Clear Coat epoxy over scratch coats I finally contacted System Three and they told me there was no need for a scratch coat, just apply their stuff right over the Createx, which has since worked pretty well (not perfectly, however) for me.

[ProfessorM]

I too gave up on the clear coat, scratch coat. No need with what I use for epoxy. Same as George. But when I did UPOL was the best I found. I sometimes just put UPOL on and say screw the epoxy if it is for me. Works very good, not as good as epoxy but decent for fishin.

[gone fishin]

No need for scratch coat, but I heat set the createx with a hair dryer. I do find that it creates a better finish and the epoxy adheres great.

[scottw]

yes, just skip the scratch coat I should have just gone with that...hey, I am curious though ...since this is the topic....when you guys have problems with "that clear coat between the paint and finish epoxy"..is it a problem getting the epoxy to lay out well on the plug an over a scratch coat or is it an issue later discovered with poor adhesion and peeling?just curious, I realize that there are a whole host of things that can go wrong....

thanks Prof. I think it was one of your posts that sent me off to the System3 data sheets, it actually vastly improved the finished product that I've been putting out in my own business and eliminated a lot of problems that were dogging me for years....now I need to investigate "UPOL"

[PNG]

I too eliminated the scratch coat... almost. Silvers/metallics create an adhesion problem. UPOL works ok on them and like Paul said sometimes I wont even use epoxy or anything else just UPOL.

Mostly now for me its straight urethane clear. Easy, quick, OK not great.

On the adhesion front Ive done a little experiment with spray painting the plug quickly all coats and spraying the clear urethane while the silver (at the very least) is still wet. Seems to have worked. Rattle can paints mind you.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by scottw

..when you guys have problems with "that clear coat between the paint and finish epoxy"..is it a problem getting the epoxy to lay out well on the plug an over a scratch coat or is it an issue later discovered with poor adhesion and peeling?just curious, I realize that there are a whole host of things that can go wrong...."

When things peeled on me, the failure was between the createx and the primer, the epoxy stayed stuck to the createx ok. Hasn't happened since I changed my primer to ZSpar undercoat......though I'm starting to wonder why I just don't prime with white createx after sealing and eliminate a step.

When the epoxy/scratch coat stuff went bad, it was an adhesion problem with the epoxy pulling away in spots (system three claimed it was because of "wetting agents" in the scratch coat). It is less of an issue over just the createx, but still occurs if any oil or silicone gets into the process (like on your brush, mixing stick, mixing cup, measuring syringes, hands, or thru God's wrath....so go to church). System Three Clear Coat was the fussiest, probably because it is the thinnest of the epoxies I tried.

[scottw]

one more question that just occured to me...maybe this should be in a different thread....which System3 epoxy were you using? they have a variety of products...I use the waterbased polyurethane(mainly because it's an exterior marine grade product) for painting additives and sealing the paint job...but the finish epoxy that I've been using is the SB-112... it's the one used for surfboards....

I've noticed a lot of compatibility issues over the years with many products....some will create a surface residue as a result of the curing process, there have been many instances where I tried to put one coat over a previous coat of another product(both waterbased) and they just don't like each other...and of course...if you eat a bag of chips, handle your plugs and then try to epoxy them...there will be problems...

[ProfessorM]

Eddy told me he had a lot of fun with the surf board stuff. I once was a mirror coat man but in the last year or so I have switched to the clear coat. It is a superior finish IMO to the mirror coat. Mirror coat looks better but is harder and more brittle and will crack off. As G. mentioned it is a little harder to work with but I like it, a lot. Every once in a while I get screw ups but that keeps you honest. Also heat set your Createx it does make a difference. You also need to keep your paws off the plugs too if you are going with no scratch coat. Contamination will wreak havoc.

[Mr. Sandman]

My God! How many coats of stuff do you guys put on a plug?
Some list the process from bare wood to final coat?

[ProfessorM]

seal, prime, paint, epoxy, thats all I do

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by ProfessorM

seal, prime, paint, epoxy, thats all I do

ditto

[scottw]

same steps...maybe a spray of poly and a whack with a sanding pad prior to finish epoxy...I add poly to all of my paints and use it to deliver metallic pigments...keeps everything uniform I guess

ps S3 makes a 2 part primer? just found that in the catalogue, have to check that out