Obamamerica part 1

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Do you think it's reasonable to expect a nation of 300M people to go from legal racism to be "color blind" in a generation?

Granted, a lot has changed but that doesn't mean we should expect an ideal that to date only science fiction writers have been able to imagine.


To say that government output should be directed to the people based on their individual contribution doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The result would be a return to a society where all wealth is contained in the hands of a priveledged few and the rest would live in poverty. One only needs to look across the border to Mexico to see what this skewed weath equation would look like.

Our entire "progressive" tax system is built on the notion of wealth redistribution, and without it we probably wouldn't have a middle class.

This is not to say that redistrubtion should be so heavy as to remove incentive from the lower classes to participate and contribute, or to remove incentive for those with wealth to invest it. History has certainly demonstrated that a balanced approach can pick up the bottom without hampering growth on top.

But the argument I see time and time again, that...wealth redistribution is incompatible with a capitalistic society simply does not make any sense.

The same could be said for regulation and free markets.

It's precisely because of the stability that such restrictions and programs provide that allows our system to sustain stable operations.

-spence

We are talking about an "economic stimulas" plan here. We are going to add huge amounts of national dept to what our kids will have to pay off. Every aspect of this plan should be based on what it will do to jump start our economy. Not the individual, rich, poor or middle class. This does not have to be fair, it has to work, plain and simple. If it doesn't then we just threw a trillion dollars out the window and we are screwed. Do it right or don't do it at all.

I think with a flat tax we still have a middle class. I don't buy your assertion that with out a proggresive tax system we would not have a middle class.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

This does not have to be fair, it has to work, plain and simple.

That's a reasonable statement to make, but our economy works because of trickle up and trickle down forces that form a natural convection. One would think that for stimulus to be most effective it should be well rounded, otherwise it would be like only stirring one side of the pot.

I think with a flat tax we still have a middle class. I don't buy your assertion that with out a proggresive tax system we would not have a middle class.

My assertion was that the progressive tax system was instrumental in forming the middle class. There may be other tax methods that could work better moving forward, although every flax tax proposal I've seen still includes progressive elements in the form of exemptions for the lower wage earners. This is still wealth redistribution, just less of it.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

That's a reasonable statement to make, but our economy works because of trickle up and trickle down forces that form a natural convection. One would think that for stimulus to be most effective it should be well rounded, otherwise it would be like only stirring one side of the pot.

-spence

I agree with that. Not sure why I'm so cynical. Maybe because the same bunch of idiots ( Barney Frank for one) that got us in this mess will have a hand in the plan. I just fail to see any change in the way this is going to be implimented. I need to see a black and white (excuse the analogy) plan that I can understand and then maybe I'll be more optimistic. I'm not sure anybody could explain where the hundreds of billions went from the last bail out.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I agree with that. Not sure why I'm so cynical. Maybe because the same bunch of idiots ( Barney Frank for one) that got us in this mess will have a hand in the plan. I just fail to see any change in the way this is going to be implimented. I need to see a black and white (excuse the analogy) plan that I can understand and then maybe I'll be more optimistic. I'm not sure anybody could explain where the hundreds of billions went from the last bail out.

Frank and Dodd certainly have a hand in the housing mess, but they are only two players in a much larger production and are being used, in my opinion, as scapegoats by the right wing press. I don't think they'll be all that influential moving forward, even if they do still hold key finance positions in Congress.

The government is trying to treat a disease with multiple and complex symptoms. Just like a doctor they have to prescribe something, see how the patient responds and adjust the medication accordingly.

Of course, there's always the possibility that they might mix bad meds or not start the healing fast enough and the patient dies.

I'm positive that that's not going to happen, but I would say the government was completely firing from the hip with the first installment of the bail-out.

While I don't think Obama's stimulus is perfect or any sort of a magic fix, at least is has the benefit of delivering tangible benefits and can be administered in a transparent manner. The hundreds of billions sent to our banks simply went into a vast black hole.

Allready it looks like the Obama Administration is going to set up a website where you can see exactly how stimulus money is being spent. This is indeed change!

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Frank and Dodd certainly have a hand in the housing mess, but they are only two players in a much larger production and are being used, in my opinion, as scapegoats by the right wing press. I don't think they'll be all that influential moving forward, even if they do still hold key finance positions in Congress.

The government is trying to treat a disease with multiple and complex symptoms. Just like a doctor they have to prescribe something, see how the patient responds and adjust the medication accordingly.

Of course, there's always the possibility that they might mix bad meds or not start the healing fast enough and the patient dies.

I'm positive that that's not going to happen, but I would say the government was completely firing from the hip with the first installment of the bail-out.

While I don't think Obama's stimulus is perfect or any sort of a magic fix, at least is has the benefit of delivering tangible benefits and can be administered in a transparent manner. The hundreds of billions sent to our banks simply went into a vast black hole.

Allready it looks like the Obama Administration is going to set up a website where you can see exactly how stimulus money is being spent. This is indeed change!

-spence

Maybe if just once those two misfits would admit their roll in the crisis I would have a little faith. They were not by any means minor players.

I agree transparancy will be a welcome change. As long as it's not just a bunch of props.