Striped Bass, the condition of the fishery

[Canalman]

oooh and not to mention the tens of thousands of pogies that the commerical fleet kills and rigs daily for live, chunk and yo-yo baits. Now what's your next move?

[Sea Dangles]

Dave, the comm fleet is not killing tens of thousands daily,not even close. It may not even be weekly.There are a limited amount of guys supplying bait stores with fresh pogies, but the comm fishermen don't even come close to taking those kind of numbers.

[Canalman]

You don't think so? I could be wrong... but I know more than a few guys who won't head out until they have 300 to rig for yo-yoing, chumming and chunking. Maybe TENS of thousands was a bit of an exaggeration but I don't think thousands is.

[Canalman]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

but the comm fishermen don't even come close to taking those kind of numbers.

How do you know this though? Do you know every commercial fisherman? Just the ammount of guys on the pigs, around the islands and gay head would easily add to up to a few thousand pogies each day if they had 40 each. (I know they take many more than that). And we're no even counting the Cape guys, the guys around Nantucket and the rest of the Vineyard and the Boston Harbor heading north. The more I think about it, the more I think 10,000 might be a possible daily bunker kill, during the commercial season.

Maybe we should make livelining and chunking illegal?

[JohnR]

In a nut shell, everything should be cut way back - commercial & recreational take for bass, commercial & recreational take for forage, etc...

Now, as pointed out in other posts, if all we are doing is arguing here about it in a circular fashion, we're probably going to argue and argue while the problem gets worse. What Would it take to get people INVOLVED?

[Canalman]

Originally Posted by JohnR

What Would it take to get people INVOLVED?

This is where I'm trying to go.

The problem I keep seeing is that people almost seem afraid to fight for any version of this. Especially on here. Now I am not saying that I'm some hero, because I'm just as guilty as the next guy.

If not for people like BasicPatrick and the very-few others that are the one loud voice on the behalf of the millions of recreational fishermen we would be toally sunk. The way the panels that vote on these things are skewed right now, there's already a foot of water on the deck.

Doesn't anyone own a bus...? that would be awesome to show up in an S-B.com bus and storm these very important meetings.

[Crafty Angler]

Well, you're either on the bus or off the bus, like the Pranksters used to say -

I'm in - no, actually, I'm on -

This isn't state by state because it does little to mandate a change in just one portion of the striped bass range - but it could be the start of a groundswell of support for tighter regs on BOTH sides of the issues - and we - recs and comms - BOTH have to take a hit on limits to preserve a common resource.

You can sort out the rest of the crap later but that aspect will never be fully resolved anyway as to who was to blame - there's plenty of it to go around and no one is faultless. The pissing contest just gets in the way of the objective and we all have a stake in the effort one way or another.

This could be the start of a groundswell at a grassroots level - the time could very well be right. Just keep your ****ing finger in your pocket for now and stop wasting time and energy if you actually want to get something done about it.

Hmmmm....I don't suppose anyone on this board owns a bus, do they?

Funny, while editing it appears a couple of other posts popped up with the same question...

[Canalman]

Let's try and do this then.

If we're going to have a loud voice, we're going to have to make it easy for people to have their voices heard. A bus trip sounds easy enough and it would probably be a blast.

Patrick, if you're reading this thread. Have they set a date for this Menhaden Meeting?

[Canalman]

This has worked before. I was talking to a well-known writer yesterday who told me the story about when MA was trying to impose a saltwater license where the money was to be destined for the "general fund". They organized a bunch of anglers and protested. Governer Weld stopped by to ask what the commotion was about, the next week's cover of The Fisherman was governer Weld holding one of the protesters signs. The next week, this writer and his friend were witness to the tearing up of the bill.

So it can work.

[Crafty Angler]

Hey, baahhdy - godtham guy, this heah could be pretty good - everbody knows we got troublesh ova heah with the stroipesh...


All attempts at injecting a little levity into a serious situation aside, it could work well if the effort maintains a centrist position on behalf of the fishery.

[fishaholic18]

Originally Posted by Canalman

A bus trip sounds easy enough and it would probably be a blast.

But how r u gonna get them to the bus??? Door to door pick up?? Could be a long trip.... Better be a beer bus.. And throw in a few Hooters girls..That'll get Clammer on board..

[numbskull]

The meetings are Jan 26th Gloucester 6pm
Jan 27th Plymouth 6pm.
I think

[Clammer]

we all have our own opinions / & that will never change ..

but its much more complicated than geting a bus of guys & storm [one] meeting .

As Crafy stated .. you get fisherman to agree ..then you walk on water ;

when I was allowed to be a real commercial fisherman & alot younger [[not this tease to applease B/S ;

I went to TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many hearings & meetings ;;& demostrations ;;

it is very difficult / close to impossible to get the fisherman to agree on anything ;;

I wish I had the photos of the protest at the statehouse /also the hundreds of boats in the shellfish fleet that made the long trip [[BACK Then} to the Brown Unitervisity boathouse on the seekonk river >>>>>>>> that day & the boats back then equaled possible diasiaster // weather wise ;;
Also a few of us // under complete secreticy [sp\ made nighttime journey,s to NYC to meet with high ranking goverment officials ;;
WE,ll ><><>< we never won a battle or a war ...... there is always something/someone much more powerful behind the curtain ;;

If you can do it /I sincerly wish you the best .
But personally / been there / done that .. & what time I have left .isn,t going to be spent getting pissed off & on & frustrated ..
I.ll fish as long as I can / & can enjoy whayever kind it can be ;;

My number is getting closer / so I.m trying to enjoy what time I have :::::

Best of luck / I really mean it >>>MIKE

[Canalman]

ya gotta start somewhere

[Clammer]

Dave ;;

your right / but after / so many times & effort // I,m tired ;;

best of luck ;;


PS ;;going nuts ,its not even close to fishable

[Crafty Angler]

Originally Posted by Clammer

....I went to TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many hearings & meetings ;;& demostrations ;;

it is very difficult / close to impossible to get the fisherman to agree on anything ;;.....

WE,ll ><><>< we never won a battle or a war ...... there is always something/someone much more powerful behind the curtain ;;

If you can do it /I sincerly wish you the best .
But personally / been there / done that .. & what time I have left .isn,t going to be spent getting pissed off & on & frustrated ..
MIKE

Clammer, you're a wise man, my friend -

I'm in the middle of a project right now and I was going to post this earlier but I opted to get some work done -

It's this: You have to realize that's a pretty tall tree you're taking an axe to - with deep roots.

Where ever you start, the end battle is really the reduction fishery and Omega Protein on the menhaden issue.

Omega was a subsidiary of the Zapata Corporation and Zapata was owned by George H.W.Bush, if memory serves.

Tall tree, deep roots and who knows where they go...

Fisheries managers are also appointees, not elected officials - and they have to toe the line. If I'm wrong on that, I'll admit to it when proven otherwise.

All that having been said, I'd be willing to throw a hat in the ring as time and work schedules allow - but this is just the opening salvo if that's what you have in mind.

Just don't expect shock and awe on the part of the managers - that didn't work either the last time around. It'll be a long campaign.

And to go anywhere at all with it, you're going to have to have everyone rowing the boat in the same direction, like Clammer said.

Uh oh...now it looks like not only am I fluent in Clammish, but we're pretty much on the same channel...

Nothing wrong with that - he's got common sense and I know you don't get that for free...

[MakoMike]

To put Omega out of business you're going to have convince an awful lot of politicans to throw their consitituents out of work. To give you an idea of what you are up against, the VA state legislature voted to give omega the menhaden they wanted even if it meant going out of compliance with the ASMFC. Good luck, but I think you're wasting you time, unless and until the menhaden population becomes "overfished" which they are not currently.

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Canalman

How do you know this though? Do you know every commercial fisherman? Just the ammount of guys on the pigs, around the islands and gay head would easily add to up to a few thousand pogies each day if they had 40 each. (I know they take many more than that). And we're no even counting the Cape guys, the guys around Nantucket and the rest of the Vineyard and the Boston Harbor heading north. The more I think about it, the more I think 10,000 might be a possible daily bunker kill, during the commercial season.

Maybe we should make livelining and chunking illegal?

I don't fish there too often to be honest.I do not know many comm. guys in MA either. I just know they don't all use pogies and not many comm guys chum.30 or 40 baits is enough to get out there and be effective. It is usually not a fleet out there the way you might envision it.Combine this with the amount of days you can actually fish commercially......

[MikeToole]

If you look at what is happening in Area 1A right now there will be no herring fishing from 1/1/09 through 5/30/09. Much of this is due to a write in campaign by sport fisherman. There are on going meetings to put in place further restrictions.

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/News...rg_010709.html

Many of the state fishing commissions have an automatic Email system to alert you of up coming meeting and when there looking for public input. If you can't make the meetings write a letter. The sport fishing community is huge and when you throw in the tackle companies and boat manufactures we could have a real say. Instead a much small commericial fishery group has to much say.

[Canalman]

I think you all are misunderstanding the intent of what I am saying.

If it took a bus, I might consider trying. But if you look at the fact that it takes 4000 crowbars and 10000000000 pounds of dynamite to get the average recreational angler off his ass to even show up at a meeting (and lately to even voice his or her opinion on a pressing issue online!), the bus and the "storm" are used more in the metaphorical sense. I am trying to encourage people to get involved in something. But all I hear is Clammer poo-pooing it "it's too hard, I'm too tired" and sadly, that is the voice of the New England recreational angler. Then you hear Sea Dangles, saying "Nope it ain't like that, they don't all use pogies." As if that somehow makes my point invalid and leaves the "X" number of pogies killed as OK. Then we hear the overwhelming voices that say that stopping the commercial season will have "no effect" we all know that is not true... but it's EASY. And that's what we all want easy. Easy so we can bitch later about it and type angrily at each other, easy so someone else can do it, easy because it's a lost cause. And it is a lost cause if you all stay home to watch rerruns of SVU or House on the nights of these meetings.

So by all means, sit at home and brood, but don't ever talk about saving the bait or the bass again if you're not willing to do something about it. Because that just makes you look like an idiot.

I'll see you at the Plymouth Meeting, because that's the one that is the easiest one for me to get to.

[fishaholic18]

Originally Posted by Canalman

I think you all are misunderstanding the intent of what I am saying.

If it took a bus, I might consider trying. But if you look at the fact that it takes 4000 crowbars and 10000000000 pounds of dynamite to get the average recreational angler off his ass to even show up at a meeting (and lately to even voice his or her opinion on a pressing issue online!), the bus and the "storm" are used more in the metaphorical sense. I am trying to encourage people to get involved in something. But all I hear is Clammer poo-pooing it "it's too hard, I'm too tired" and sadly, that is the voice of the New England recreational angler. Then you hear Sea Dangles, saying "Nope it ain't like that, they don't all use pogies." As if that somehow makes my point invalid and leaves the "X" number of pogies killed as OK. Then we hear the overwhelming voices that say that stopping the commercial season will have "no effect" we all know that is not true... but it's EASY. And that's what we all want easy. Easy so we can bitch later about it and type angrily at each other, easy so someone else can do it, easy because it's a lost cause. And it is a lost cause if you all stay home to watch rerruns of SVU or House on the nights of these meetings.

So by all means, sit at home and brood, but don't ever talk about saving the bait or the bass again if you're not willing to do something about it. Because that just makes you look like an idiot.

I'll see you at the Plymouth Meeting, because that's the one that is the easiest one for me to get to.

End It...No matter what u say...guys will be against it...weather they want to or not... Dave..so don't let it get to ya...Negativity by nature.....here....

[Crafty Angler]

I'm out...

For now, that is...

[l.i.fish.in.vt]

you want to see the fish stocks rebound,start by banning all development within a mile of the water,stop the development of all wetlands.stop chorination of water supplies,stop fertilization of our lawns and farms.you might also want to eliminate bluefish. in the last several years up on the cape i have seen bluefish put more peanut bunker on the beaches to die than any commercial boat would catch in a year. how many peanuts would it take to spread 2 miles long several inches deep by a few feet wide for days on end.ban all fishing not just commercial.in the end it is all up to mother nature.

[hq2]

Well, at least it's good to see that people are recognizing there's a problem earlier on, rather than waiting until the stocks were all but destroyed, as happened the last time, although things have already clearly gone considerably downhill. Unfortunately, the difference this time is that the forage fish are involved as well, not just the striper fisherman. This is going to make doing something much, much, harder than before. Since the commercial guys are going to fight a herring ban, that means things will probably play out about the same as last time; the stocks will continue to decline until they have almost collapsed, then the state governments will have to impose much tighter herring and striper limits. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Canalman

oooh and not to mention the tens of thousands of pogies that the commerical fleet kills and rigs daily for live, chunk and yo-yo baits. Now what's your next move?

Dave, this is the only post I was responding to,don't try to make it what it isn't. If you wish to make a valid point perhaps you would be better served by not using exaggeration or metaphors,rather presenting the facts to lend some credibility. The attack on calamma is also uncalled for given the fact he has obviously walked it and talked it before and appears to be saving his strength for fishing. This noble endeavor you are undertaking is obviously important to you, but a calculated strategy may cast it in a more serious light.

[Canalman]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Dave, this is the only post I was responding to,don't try to make it what it isn't. If you wish to make a valid point perhaps you would be better served by not using exaggeration or metaphors,rather presenting the facts to lend some credibility. The attack on calamma is also uncalled for given the fact he has obviously walked it and talked it before and appears to be saving his strength for fishing. This noble endeavor you are undertaking is obviously important to you, but a calculated strategy may cast it in a more serious light.

That was not an attack on Clammer, I was using his words as an example to show what seems to be a consensus among the many that sit back and wait. Clammer is a friend of mine, and all I did was take his words and put them in the mouths of the many who are saying the same things.

When I went to bed last night after submitting that last post, I considered getting back up to delete it because I did write it in the shotgun fashion, more typing, less thinking. But I decided that leaving it up there was better because, it might push someone to go and it might piss a few people off... seems I mostly achieved the latter .

The last thing I want to do is create enemies or spiteful ignorance of an important issue. I brought up the menhanden meeting because so many people were burying the Gamefish Bill in favor of saving the bait. So now we have a chance to make a step toward what was a unified goal -- but it's too hard I guess.

It's obvious that this is going nowhere. So, I guess I'll quit too for now.

I can't, for the life of me, figure out how this became a flame war. It's something we should all want. I guess I'll keep my tongue in my mouth from now on. I should know better anyway.

-Dave

[BassDawg]

DAVE!!

you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, imho.

before everyone goes to beating me up about
my past internet foibles and short time "in the suds",,,,,,,

i am inclined to agree with Dave and his argument,
prima facia, since what he is saying is sincere and VALID!

Clammer wasn't being attacked, it seemed that Canalman
was agreeing with him if you get the giste of Dave's words.
ALSO, exagerration is a fine way of emphasizing a point. BOTH
sides of this debate twist science, manipulate legislation, and
use some form of sensationalism to sway public opinion,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

soooooo, i don't fault Dave for having his opinion and sticking to it
while trying to call more than just a few of us to action. haven't WE ALL agreed that getting a busload of us to agree on anything is miraculous at best??? all the more reason for shame, exagerration, guilt, coupla bombs being tossed ~~most anything short of gunpoint~~ to get a large number of us MOVING towards a common goal.

whether his opinion is based in fact, or IS somehwat exagerrated to
wake someof us UP and get our bums off of our couches, is of little
or no consequence to me when the MAIN OBJECTIVE that i believe
he is shooting for is to promote INVOLVEMENT!!!

this problem that faces our fishery is a multi-faceted and prolonged process that WILL take a progression of wins and losses to arrive at the ultimate GOAL of resolving to do what is best for forage, species, AND estuary. BUT, what is undeniably TRUE is that we must remain resolute and involved with EVERY step of the process. and if tonight COULD start witha BANG??? then has Dave's end justified his means?? in my view, YES!!

amongst several esteemed dissenting opinions,
Dave's task is daunting at best and well worth stepping on a few toesies!!
hope i've not hurt anyone's feelings, and what time and where is the meeting in Plymouth, MA??
i'll sea ya there, CanalDave!!

[DZ]

OK - Now to completely confuse everyone. The asmfc will be holding their annual meeting next week to do stock assessment.
I've attached some interesting documents relating to the Striped Bass and Menhaden issues.

The striped bass are starving because of no menhaden so where are the menhaden? Answer according to one NC study: Being eaten by the striped bass.

Very interesting and very complex. The asmfc has one tough problem to figuere out.

[maddmatt]

Originally Posted by l.i.fish.in.vt

you want to see the fish stocks rebound,start by banning all development within a mile of the water,stop the development of all wetlands.stop chorination of water supplies,stop fertilization of our lawns and farms.you might also want to eliminate bluefish. in the last several years up on the cape i have seen bluefish put more peanut bunker on the beaches to die than any commercial boat would catch in a year. how many peanuts would it take to spread 2 miles long several inches deep by a few feet wide for days on end.ban all fishing not just commercial.in the end it is all up to mother nature.

mass closed the comm bluefish season last sept because TOO MANY were being caught! go figure.

[Crafty Angler]

Damn...different thread...still put it in the wrong forum....

Sorry.....

Anybody seen the Muzik Forum...