Is there a contradiction Here?

[RIROCKHOUND]

Darwinian economics shares a name and 'survival of the fittest' mentality as Darwinian evolution, I wasn't disputing that. Comparing the debate between ID and evolution with the do nothing vs stimulus debate seemed like a very odd connection to make, to me. Thats why I felt it was apples and oranges.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Darwinian economics shares a name and 'survival of the fittest' mentality as Darwinian evolution, I wasn't disputing that. Comparing the debate between ID and evolution with the do nothing vs stimulus debate seemed like a very odd connection to make, to me. Thats why I felt it was apples and oranges.

I see what you mean. But I'm still perplexed by the fear of the very process that brought us to this point (avoided the phrase "created us"). It seems we keep trying to rein that proccess in. And all our efforts seem more like bombardments on the tissue of what we are at any given evolutionary moment, from which point evolution just busts out in new and unexpected directions, often worse than where it was going before we tried to fix it. As we keep tinkering at its edges, trying to make it nicer, more equitably habitable for everybody and everything (e. g. saving all species and cultures from extinction, keeping the temperature at the same minute range forever) are we trying to stop the process? That's what seems contradictory to me. Is the Stimulus Package an attempt to stimulate Capitalism or an attempt to check it? Or is it an attempt to further evolve into Socialism? Doing nothing is a misnomer. Doing nothing is more evolutionary than "stimulating" the economy. The market evolves and corrects. "Stimulating," especially with several permanent wealth transfer programs, at the least, interferes with market evolution, at most, it transforms it into something else, perhaps better, usually worse. And, to me, the worse would be an attempt to keep creeping toward Utopia--that grand, intelligent design.

[spence]

I'm quite surprised that RIROCKHOUND didn't proclaim your argument invalid because of it's circular nature.

He really hates circular arguments you know.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm quite surprised that RIROCKHOUND didn't proclaim your argument invalid because of it's circular nature.

He really hates circular arguments you know.

-spence

There is a certain circularity when you contradict yourself. If you continually say one thing and do another, your hypocrisy can tend to circle around your persona like a noose around your neck.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Darwinian economics shares a name and 'survival of the fittest' mentality as Darwinian evolution, I wasn't disputing that. Comparing the debate between ID and evolution with the do nothing vs stimulus debate seemed like a very odd connection to make, to me. Thats why I felt it was apples and oranges.

Darwinian econ. not only shares the name but is an economic theory BASED on Darwinian Evolution. It answers the problem of Neo-Classical Economics nicely by using the evolutionary process and explains why government planning such as the Stimulus Bill are actually a hinderance to market evolution. Throughout some discussions of evolutionary economics versus planned or regulated economies, the concept of Intelligent Design IS actually compared to regulation and government planning. The connection is not that odd to those who mull these issues. Which is why I didn't understand your apples and oranges comment. I didn't want to bring up the debate between ID and Evolution, I just wondered why left leaning politicians who claim to espouse Evolution eschew it when it comes to economics and revert to what more closely resembles Intelligent Design, the nemesis.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

I just wondered why left leaning politicians who claim to espouse Evolution eschew it when it comes to economics and revert to what more closely resembles Intelligent Design, the nemesis.

There's an aphorism I've heard that I like to use called "apples and oranges".

Since when do left leaning politicians believe that the basis from our economic system was created by a God?

If anything they'd believe it's a product of Man and has been synthesized by Man. Perhaps those on the far left would believe if it's a product of Man then there is an intrinsic higher power in the form of the village. But even they would still consider the system a tool for the survival of the village (like a grist mill) made by and for Man, rather than a seemly innocous element (like a stream or dust-bunny) which plays a critical part in the grand scheme.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

There's an aphorism I've heard that I like to use called "apples and oranges".

Since when do left leaning politicians believe that the basis from our economic system was created by a God?

If anything they'd believe it's a product of Man and has been synthesized by Man. Perhaps those on the far left would believe if it's a product of Man then there is an intrinsic higher power in the form of the village. But even they would still consider the system a tool for the survival of the village (like a grist mill) made by and for Man, rather than a seemly innocous element (like a stream or dust-bunny) which plays a critical part in the grand scheme.

-spence

Left leaning politicians generally, rather than believing our economic system was created by God, play god when they try to "fix it." Which is why I'm asking if there is a contradiction here. Our economic system is, purportedly, Capitalism. And they, purportedly, "believe?" in Evolution (mandate that it be taught in schools, not ID). Capitalism is an evolved "system." And it continues to evolve. Capitalism IS Evolutionary Economics. And there IS a fairly new term being bruited about in economic disscussions--Intelligent Design Economics. Granted, it's a spinoff from the ID/Evolution debate. It's a, perhaps snide, way to refer to planned or regulated economies. IT'S NOT MY TERM. I'M NOT COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES. There has been for a long time a debate between planned and evolutionary economic systems. The planned ones come and go, the evolutionary ones continue to evolve, usually with interruptions by planners. Darwinian economics and Darwinian evolution are not just related by the name. The economic process is just a part of the whole evolutionary process. So, if you're a legislator all stoked up by evolution, why don't you have the balls to let it work? Why would you pass the greatest planned, anti-capitalist bill in American history?

BTW, Evolution, and Evolutionary Economics, is not just that predatory sounding "survival of the fittest." Evolutionary Economics, when it works (evolves) in its best, most efficient way, does so for the good of ALL in the "village."

Like your suit!

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Left leaning politicians generally, rather than believing our economic system was created by God, play god when they try to "fix it." Which is why I'm asking if there is a contradiction here.

And here is the issue. ALL politicians, regardless of idiology or party, play God in respect to trying to "fix" the system.

The Right - denies they're manipulating the system because it violates their beliefs, but they know it's necessary to keep the economy running so they have no choice.

The Left - goes out of their way to proclaim how they're manipulating the system for the good of us all, but they know that taken too far it's not sustainable in the end.

Hence reality, and a well functioning society is ultimately owned by the Middle. The irony is that the Middle has no real power or authority.

Like your suit!

It's a Zegna 15milmil15 double breasted, peak lapel, Prince of Wales check. I took the photos for my mother who wanted to see some recent pictures of me. Funny though, I've never had the suit tailored and have been trying to sell it online. Retail is about $2700 and I scored a sweet deal. That being said I don't have enough opportunities aside from weddings and to really wear it. And like all of us, I could use the cash.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

And here is the issue. ALL politicians, regardless of idiology or party, play God in respect to trying to "fix" the system.

The Right - denies they're manipulating the system because it violates their beliefs, but they know it's necessary to keep the economy running so they have no choice.

The Left - goes out of their way to proclaim how they're manipulating the system for the good of us all, but they know that taken too far it's not sustainable in the end.

Hence reality, and a well functioning society is ultimately owned by the Middle. The irony is that the Middle has no real power or authority.


It's a Zegna 15milmil15 double breasted, peak lapel, Prince of Wales check. I took the photos for my mother who wanted to see some recent pictures of me. Funny though, I've never had the suit tailored and have been trying to sell it online. Retail is about $2700 and I scored a sweet deal. That being said I don't have enough opportunities aside from weddings and to really wear it. And like all of us, I could use the cash.

-spence

[B]THE [B] pre-requisite for the political class is some degree (for some, too much) of a lust for power. Not only does power corrupt . . . etc. it provides that opportunity to have a god-like control. Republicans, no less. But the right is now irrelevant. So talking about them would either be about revenge, or sour grapes, or maybe a fading afterglow. What we, in the middle, have at hand, is scary. The middle has had the power of the vote. But that is years away, and the middle seems to have tipped ever more to the left so the God-like power may not be checked by the vote for a while. Meanwhile, we in the middle have had an even GREATER power--the MARKET. It has been our diversity of desires and needs to which the Market responds and evolves that has made US Godlike (in a pantheistic way) in the evolutionary Capitalistic system which we have enjoyed. We have been the Titans whom the Olympians are about to defeat. Though, both the right and left may like to play God, at least the right prefers to do it in the Arena of Capitalism. At least more so than the left, though George Bush may have put a dent in that faith. Rahm Emanuel said that a crisis should not be wasted--use it to pass what the middle wouldn't let you do in better times. And its massive victory may have provided the left-wing thrust against capitalism a mighty blow. Mighty enough to capture that permanent 51% and growing populace who will be dependent on it. We in the middle may become, rather than the engine of evolutionary economic forces, a bound Prometheus waiting, hopefully, to be released.

Been a long time since I've had need of a suit. Like most fine things, I admire from a distance.

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by spence

And here is the issue. ALL politicians, regardless of idiology or party, play God in respect to trying to "fix" the system.

The Right - denies they're manipulating the system because it violates their beliefs, but they know it's necessary to keep the economy running so they have no choice.

The Left - goes out of their way to proclaim how they're manipulating the system for the good of us all, but they know that taken too far it's not sustainable in the end.

Hence reality, and a well functioning society is ultimately owned by the Middle. The irony is that the Middle has no real power or authority.


It's a Zegna 15milmil15 double breasted, peak lapel, Prince of Wales check. I took the photos for my mother who wanted to see some recent pictures of me. Funny though, I've never had the suit tailored and have been trying to sell it online. Retail is about $2700 and I scored a sweet deal. That being said I don't have enough opportunities aside from weddings and to really wear it. And like all of us, I could use the cash.

-spence

You should see Spences Brioni waders.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

You should see Spences Brioni waders.

Nah, just Simms...but don't worry, everything is always color coordinated.

I do have a few Brioni dress shirts. Nice, but the cut isn't the best for me. I don't think I could afford a Brioni suit even at massive discount.

We're talking over 4K retail.

-spence